Too Cool NP, thanks for that. You are correct, there are good and bad representatives of every group. Maybe it is just how we percieve things....
I mean geeze, I feel like I am attacked and bullied for exactly the opposite reasons....lol
That was what I was trying to say to people, however badly that I stated it....
I mean, I would like to think in terms of What do I bring to the *table* to make this a wholesome healing place, or the place that I would like to visit? Rather than simply being mad at someone else for not bringing what I personally like.
I guess that I am just crazy about all of us and am unhappy when everybody (or anybody) is painted with a broad brush.
I think that if we all could see one another as valuable, individual, as precious....rather than pass judgement based on the lables that we wear.....we might understand each other better.
"What do YOU bring to the *table* to make this a wholesom healing place, or the place that you would like to visit? Rather than simply being mad at someone else for not bringing what we personally like."
I'm no madder at someone else for not bringing what we (I) personally like than anyone else at GS.
This thread, perhaps now classically derailed, started with PL asking about CFF. (I'm not a member).
I felt some of the replies were no more objective than the "all churches are bad" mentality of TWI.
But, I guess we're all just giving our opinions, that is what we all bring to the table.
Since you asked, here is my opinion...hang out with your church friends for a while and get exposed to a different viewpoint/different perspective of the Bible than TWI/offshoot brand. Your CFF friends should still be around if you decide to check it out.
I have been to a CFF fellowship and enjoyed it--they were loving and emphasized Jesus Christ more than TWI these days. Probably would have came back if it was closer--but I am enjoying the local church I have found right now. I have been out of twi for about a year and a half.
Ultimately, does it really matter what I think or Cowgirl thinks or Belle thinks (not picking on anyone here - just got some random names from the posts.)
I mean - unless there are skeletons in the closet, isn't this decision up to Pink Lady and WHAT SHE THINKS?
Maybe this thread was only that - a search for any skeletons.
The bickering sometimes just drowns out the message.....
The real question that begs to be answered is not whether CFF engages in abusive practices towards their followers...(Is that the criteria?...they don't abuse me, so they must be of God?)...
The real question is do you need validation for your belief system?
As satori pointed out in a different thread..."One problem with your typical religion is the way it provides a natural platform for charismatic personalities to cling to the diety's coat-tails"
I have decided that for me, my spiritual journey is one that is very personal and requires me to confront myself, my beliefs, and my relationship with the Lord...alone. That's right. I am all in favor of Christians fellowshipping with each other and have nothing against structured Christian organizations...however, this is frosting on the cake and should not be mistaken for the cake itself. If you are relying on other people to validate your beliefs or to tell you what to believe or to act as a mediator between you and the Lord...I think you are "missing something" that is vital.
I disagree with those who argue over doctrine...Christianity is not an academic excercise, it's about your personal relationship with Him...and the way you choose to live.
As far as the "offshoots" go..."Don't lend your hand to raise no flag upon a ship of fools"...Jerry Garcia...(IMHO).
Ultimately, does it really matter what I think or Cowgirl thinks or Belle thinks (not picking on anyone here - just got some random names from the posts.)
I mean - unless there are skeletons in the closet, isn't this decision up to Pink Lady and WHAT SHE THINKS?
Maybe this thread was only that - a search for any skeletons.
The bickering sometimes just drowns out the message.....
Exactly, Dooj. And that's why my initial post was really just a bunch of questions. Questions that only PinkLady can answer for herself.
I would be the last person on earth to get myself involved with any twi-related offshoot. Howver, of all the offshoots, I respect CFF somewhat. I've chatted with CFFers in GSC chat, and they did not have the common twi attitude "we are the only ones with truth". The people I've spoken to recognize other christians as the Body of Christ and don't try to put themselves in a special place.
However, seeing what has happened in CES would scare me even farther away from ANY ex-way fellowship. Church suites me fine. I especially liked the divorce care group I attended at church when I first left twi. It helped me with my emotions involving twi and helped me get over feeling so much animosity.
"The real question that begs to be answered is not whether CFF engages in abusive practices towards their followers...(Is that the criteria?...they don't abuse me, so they must be of God?)..."
This was what I was trying to say - but you had the better words for the thought.
In my opinion the real question is what do they teach. What do they believe concerning the Bible?
If their teaching is "PFAL centric" , and if you don't agree with or like that, then don't participate.
If you do agree, then CFF might be a good match for you.
Seems to me that the best way to know what they teach is to listen to their teachings, maybe read some of their material. They have a website.
Asking questions is good . . . good questions have been proposed on this thread.
You make your decision by using your God given freedom of will.
Bottom line ==> to coin a phrase, 'at the end of the day', have they [CFF, GSC, whoever] promoted God or have they promoted their organization/agenda ?
Everyone has to decide this for themself.
Statements thay imply that persons who hold some regard for things taught by VPW are stupid and can't think for themselves can lead to possible derailments of the original subject matter, and often do come across as judgemental and bitter.
"The bickering sometimes just drowns out the message....."
"As far as the "offshoots" go..."Don't lend your hand to raise no flag upon a ship of fools"...Jerry Garcia...(IMHO)."
"great quote, though! perfect, in fact.)"
These statements could lead to a possible thread derailment resulting in bickering.
I repeat "Statements thay imply that persons who hold some regard for things taught by VPW are stupid and can't think for themselves can lead to possible derailments of the original subject matter, and often do come across as judgemental and bitter
Thanks Bagpipes and Groucho – your posts are along the lines of what I was trying to say in my post # 14: erroneous doctrine yields erroneous practice. Usually when someone repeats an action often enough it becomes a habit. Habits can be a good thing or a bad thing – depending on the habit. Habits are taken for granted – they go unnoticed – maybe even being an unconscious process…I don't know - I'm not a Psyche Major…they usually do not register on our radar…deemed insignificant. That's why I think they're important! On a self-improvement level, I'm of the opinion that habits which have a significant and cumulative effect on our character, the way we process information, the way we make decisions, the way we interact socially, etc. should come under stringent scrutiny during our reflective moments.
Very committed TWI-followers are highly-trained in a grossly abnormal Modus Operandi. I venture to say that even if you could force-feed right doctrine into them – it would only get shredded and re-configured at the threshold PFAL filtration system – before it even gets to the mental digestive system – [okay so I'm not a Biology Major either]…Bagpipes talked about the cultish mentality/mindset. These are acquired intellectual habits…And I really liked Groucho's emphasizing real Christianity is about our relationship with the Lord and not an exercise in academics! I firmly believe that! As much as I enjoy studying the Bible and doctrinal discussions – my personal faith is a whole lot more about Lordship than scholarship! That brings me back to habits and mindsets again. The mindset I had in TWI: Bible Knowledge based on PFAL is where it's at. Get in the habit of reading PFAL material frequently. Absorb. Absorb. Absorb.
That's why I said it before and I'll say it again. Former TWI-leaders who really have a desire to serve their fellow Christians HAVE NO BUSINESS immediately starting their own ministry. They are so well-trained in error it's going to take awhile to rectify the way they function. And it's going to take a lot more than just studying systematic theology until you're blue in the face. It all hinges on humbling ourselves before our Lord Jesus [instead of the Board of Trustees or any other idol, alive or dead] and submitting to His "academic program" – acquiring a new habit – choosing to obey Him.
These statements could lead to a possible thread derailment resulting in bickering.
derailment? bickering? at greasespot? NEVER!
but that reminds me...you know, sometimes, when you're watching tv, maybe after a couple of beers, or not even, and you switch channels during a commercial, and then forget to go back to the original show and think you were just watching the new show all along but then suddenly you remember you were just on this channel because of the commercial and now you can't even remember which show you were watching and if you somehow DO remember you can't for the life of you remember what channel it was on and now there are TWO shows you don't know what's going on on and you can't just hit the "last channel" button because you were hopping around before you ended up on the channel you're on...
but that reminds me...you know, sometimes, when you're watching tv, maybe after a couple of beers, or not even, and you switch channels during a commercial, and then forget to go back to the original show and think you were just watching the new show all along but then suddenly you remember you were just on this channel because of the commercial and now you can't even remember which show you were watching and if you somehow DO remember you can't for the life of you remember what channel it was on and now there are TWO shows you don't know what's going on on and you can't just hit the "last channel" button because you were hopping around before you ended up on the channel you're on...
Only had that happen when I was smoking some REAL good bud. :)
but that reminds me...you know, sometimes, when you're watching tv, maybe after a couple of beers, or not even, and you switch channels during a commercial, and then forget to go back to the original show and think you were just watching the new show all along but then suddenly you remember you were just on this channel because of the commercial and now you can't even remember which show you were watching and if you somehow DO remember you can't for the life of you remember what channel it was on and now there are TWO shows you don't know what's going on on and you can't just hit the "last channel" button because you were hopping around before you ended up on the channel you're on...
And then you cross the International Dateline......
Go where you find your needs are being met, where you get what help you need. If it's in a church - fine. If it's in CFF - fine. When wherever you are stops helping or stops giving you an outlet to do what you want/need to do - go somewhere else.
Shop around; God isn't limited to one denomination or organization. Make sure you can ask questions and if you are pressured or just plain uncomfortable with the people, get your running shoes on. (A big question I'd ask is, what becomes of the money? Who gets it, ultimately? What do they do with it?)
Churches can also be bad in their own ways. What's important is that you are in a place where the love of God is truly demonstrated (nearly said manifested, but that sounds too TWI!) and people are genuinely cared for. Do the people love God, teach about JC and what he accomplished; or do they worship an individual?
There are vibrant churches under the Anglican, Methodist and Baptist banners (at least, can't speak for other denominations) where the ritual of the denomination is ... pretty thin ... but the love of God is huge. And there are duds in the same organizations.
Mr Hammeroni:
Your comment "tell me what you think about VP..." is too funny!
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rascal
Too Cool NP, thanks for that. You are correct, there are good and bad representatives of every group. Maybe it is just how we percieve things....
I mean geeze, I feel like I am attacked and bullied for exactly the opposite reasons....lol
That was what I was trying to say to people, however badly that I stated it....
I mean, I would like to think in terms of What do I bring to the *table* to make this a wholesome healing place, or the place that I would like to visit? Rather than simply being mad at someone else for not bringing what I personally like.
I guess that I am just crazy about all of us and am unhappy when everybody (or anybody) is painted with a broad brush.
I think that if we all could see one another as valuable, individual, as precious....rather than pass judgement based on the lables that we wear.....we might understand each other better.
(I am speaking to myself as well here)
Edited by rascalLink to comment
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NewParadigm
"What do YOU bring to the *table* to make this a wholesom healing place, or the place that you would like to visit? Rather than simply being mad at someone else for not bringing what we personally like."
I'm no madder at someone else for not bringing what we (I) personally like than anyone else at GS.
This thread, perhaps now classically derailed, started with PL asking about CFF. (I'm not a member).
I felt some of the replies were no more objective than the "all churches are bad" mentality of TWI.
But, I guess we're all just giving our opinions, that is what we all bring to the table.
Edited by NewParadigmLink to comment
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penguin
Hey pink lady,
Since you asked, here is my opinion...hang out with your church friends for a while and get exposed to a different viewpoint/different perspective of the Bible than TWI/offshoot brand. Your CFF friends should still be around if you decide to check it out.
I have been to a CFF fellowship and enjoyed it--they were loving and emphasized Jesus Christ more than TWI these days. Probably would have came back if it was closer--but I am enjoying the local church I have found right now. I have been out of twi for about a year and a half.
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doojable
Ultimately, does it really matter what I think or Cowgirl thinks or Belle thinks (not picking on anyone here - just got some random names from the posts.)
I mean - unless there are skeletons in the closet, isn't this decision up to Pink Lady and WHAT SHE THINKS?
Maybe this thread was only that - a search for any skeletons.
The bickering sometimes just drowns out the message.....
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GrouchoMarxJr
The real question that begs to be answered is not whether CFF engages in abusive practices towards their followers...(Is that the criteria?...they don't abuse me, so they must be of God?)...
The real question is do you need validation for your belief system?
As satori pointed out in a different thread..."One problem with your typical religion is the way it provides a natural platform for charismatic personalities to cling to the diety's coat-tails"
I have decided that for me, my spiritual journey is one that is very personal and requires me to confront myself, my beliefs, and my relationship with the Lord...alone. That's right. I am all in favor of Christians fellowshipping with each other and have nothing against structured Christian organizations...however, this is frosting on the cake and should not be mistaken for the cake itself. If you are relying on other people to validate your beliefs or to tell you what to believe or to act as a mediator between you and the Lord...I think you are "missing something" that is vital.
I disagree with those who argue over doctrine...Christianity is not an academic excercise, it's about your personal relationship with Him...and the way you choose to live.
As far as the "offshoots" go..."Don't lend your hand to raise no flag upon a ship of fools"...Jerry Garcia...(IMHO).
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Belle
Exactly, Dooj. And that's why my initial post was really just a bunch of questions. Questions that only PinkLady can answer for herself.
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Nottawayfer
I would be the last person on earth to get myself involved with any twi-related offshoot. Howver, of all the offshoots, I respect CFF somewhat. I've chatted with CFFers in GSC chat, and they did not have the common twi attitude "we are the only ones with truth". The people I've spoken to recognize other christians as the Body of Christ and don't try to put themselves in a special place.
However, seeing what has happened in CES would scare me even farther away from ANY ex-way fellowship. Church suites me fine. I especially liked the divorce care group I attended at church when I first left twi. It helped me with my emotions involving twi and helped me get over feeling so much animosity.
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doojable
Groucho wrote:
"The real question that begs to be answered is not whether CFF engages in abusive practices towards their followers...(Is that the criteria?...they don't abuse me, so they must be of God?)..."
This was what I was trying to say - but you had the better words for the thought.
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sprawled out
not to get all doctrinally nitpicky with you, groucho, but don't you mean Robert Hunter? :P (great quote, though! perfect, in fact.)
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NewParadigm
In my opinion the real question is what do they teach. What do they believe concerning the Bible?
If their teaching is "PFAL centric" , and if you don't agree with or like that, then don't participate.
If you do agree, then CFF might be a good match for you.
Seems to me that the best way to know what they teach is to listen to their teachings, maybe read some of their material. They have a website.
Asking questions is good . . . good questions have been proposed on this thread.
You make your decision by using your God given freedom of will.
Bottom line ==> to coin a phrase, 'at the end of the day', have they [CFF, GSC, whoever] promoted God or have they promoted their organization/agenda ?
Everyone has to decide this for themself.
Statements thay imply that persons who hold some regard for things taught by VPW are stupid and can't think for themselves can lead to possible derailments of the original subject matter, and often do come across as judgemental and bitter.
Edited by NewParadigmLink to comment
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NewParadigm
"The bickering sometimes just drowns out the message....."
"As far as the "offshoots" go..."Don't lend your hand to raise no flag upon a ship of fools"...Jerry Garcia...(IMHO)."
"great quote, though! perfect, in fact.)"
These statements could lead to a possible thread derailment resulting in bickering.
I repeat "Statements thay imply that persons who hold some regard for things taught by VPW are stupid and can't think for themselves can lead to possible derailments of the original subject matter, and often do come across as judgemental and bitter
." Edited by NewParadigmLink to comment
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excathedra
sorry when i went to their website i got the heebie jeebies
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NewParadigm
OK. That was YOUR experience.
Sorry 'bout your heebie jeebies, but I'm not sure that is enough for someone to make an informed decision about them, IMO.
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excathedra
i don't mind what people do. i'm allowed to just talk here, i think :)
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NewParadigm
Me too, I hope.
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excathedra
but of course !!!
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doojable
AHEM .....Am I mistaken or has all this talk about derailment kept the derailment going?
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T-Bone
Thanks Bagpipes and Groucho – your posts are along the lines of what I was trying to say in my post # 14: erroneous doctrine yields erroneous practice. Usually when someone repeats an action often enough it becomes a habit. Habits can be a good thing or a bad thing – depending on the habit. Habits are taken for granted – they go unnoticed – maybe even being an unconscious process…I don't know - I'm not a Psyche Major…they usually do not register on our radar…deemed insignificant. That's why I think they're important! On a self-improvement level, I'm of the opinion that habits which have a significant and cumulative effect on our character, the way we process information, the way we make decisions, the way we interact socially, etc. should come under stringent scrutiny during our reflective moments.
Very committed TWI-followers are highly-trained in a grossly abnormal Modus Operandi. I venture to say that even if you could force-feed right doctrine into them – it would only get shredded and re-configured at the threshold PFAL filtration system – before it even gets to the mental digestive system – [okay so I'm not a Biology Major either]…Bagpipes talked about the cultish mentality/mindset. These are acquired intellectual habits…And I really liked Groucho's emphasizing real Christianity is about our relationship with the Lord and not an exercise in academics! I firmly believe that! As much as I enjoy studying the Bible and doctrinal discussions – my personal faith is a whole lot more about Lordship than scholarship! That brings me back to habits and mindsets again. The mindset I had in TWI: Bible Knowledge based on PFAL is where it's at. Get in the habit of reading PFAL material frequently. Absorb. Absorb. Absorb.
That's why I said it before and I'll say it again. Former TWI-leaders who really have a desire to serve their fellow Christians HAVE NO BUSINESS immediately starting their own ministry. They are so well-trained in error it's going to take awhile to rectify the way they function. And it's going to take a lot more than just studying systematic theology until you're blue in the face. It all hinges on humbling ourselves before our Lord Jesus [instead of the Board of Trustees or any other idol, alive or dead] and submitting to His "academic program" – acquiring a new habit – choosing to obey Him.
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sprawled out
derailment? bickering? at greasespot? NEVER!
but that reminds me...you know, sometimes, when you're watching tv, maybe after a couple of beers, or not even, and you switch channels during a commercial, and then forget to go back to the original show and think you were just watching the new show all along but then suddenly you remember you were just on this channel because of the commercial and now you can't even remember which show you were watching and if you somehow DO remember you can't for the life of you remember what channel it was on and now there are TWO shows you don't know what's going on on and you can't just hit the "last channel" button because you were hopping around before you ended up on the channel you're on...
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Bluzeman
Only had that happen when I was smoking some REAL good bud. :)
Rick
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sprawled out
smoking bud? not drinking it? i'm sure i have no idea what you're talking about, bluzey.
you're not bickering with me, are you?
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doojable
And then you cross the International Dateline......
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Twinky
Go where you find your needs are being met, where you get what help you need. If it's in a church - fine. If it's in CFF - fine. When wherever you are stops helping or stops giving you an outlet to do what you want/need to do - go somewhere else.
Shop around; God isn't limited to one denomination or organization. Make sure you can ask questions and if you are pressured or just plain uncomfortable with the people, get your running shoes on. (A big question I'd ask is, what becomes of the money? Who gets it, ultimately? What do they do with it?)
Churches can also be bad in their own ways. What's important is that you are in a place where the love of God is truly demonstrated (nearly said manifested, but that sounds too TWI!) and people are genuinely cared for. Do the people love God, teach about JC and what he accomplished; or do they worship an individual?
There are vibrant churches under the Anglican, Methodist and Baptist banners (at least, can't speak for other denominations) where the ritual of the denomination is ... pretty thin ... but the love of God is huge. And there are duds in the same organizations.
Mr Hammeroni:
Your comment "tell me what you think about VP..." is too funny!
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Bluzeman
Nah, just kidding with ya! Never take me seriously! Unless I'm being serious.
Rick
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