i guess i don't get out enough. in the 20 years since i left twi, i have NEVER bumped into a current innie, or anyone in a splinter group. where are you hanging out that you meet these people? are they lurking at churches?
Pinklady, read the CES is in a Mess threads - take notes cause it's highly likely be seeing a CFF one someday, too.
WHY, when we can see and have learned from our experience with TWI and the rotten foundation it was built on, why on Earth would anyone want to get involved with a group that has TWI as IT'S foundation?
What are you hoping to get out of your involvement with CFF?
What are you looking for and what do you need that you think you can get from CFF?
It already seems like you've been "pitched" the same old, "Take our class" propaganda - and you're already wary of it. Do you think they're going to drop the pitch if you say you don't want to take the class when it's "foundational" to their ministry?
How long have you been out of TWI and the other splinter group(s)?
Have you done any reading and research on your own? Have you decided what YOU need in your life, or are you just jumping from one group to another hoping that they'll tell you what you need and how they can sell it to you for a nominal fee?
How many other churches have you visited? How many have you visited without wearing TWIt and/or offshoot blinders?
Why, if you love the women's group at one church, are you looking somewhere else? Or, were you not looking somewhere else, but now feel pressured to because of these CFF folks?
We all have to make our own path and, as Sushi says, the lessons are repeated until they are learned. Have you learned the lesson yet? If not, then maybe CFF is as good as the next offshoot.
I wonder that, too. I wonder if the offshoot folks look for those who unwillingly left TWI and who they think would most likely still be involved if the skeletons hadn't fallen out into plain view. Those are the sheep, the naive, the ...... who are most malleable and gullible to the tactics and structure of TWI, CES, CFF, Geer and all the other groups who have TWI as their foundation.
They don't bother folks who are strong in their independence and who have come to see the fraud that TWI is. Free thinkers, people who have built their self-esteem back up to normal and folks who have actually done enough reading and research to realize how effed up the teachings are - people like this are threatening to these groups. People like this can't be manipulated quite as easily and, therefore, are not going to produce a good Return On Investment. They aren't going to waste their time on folks they can't easily pickpocket.
You go to a nice church, why bother with anything else right now?
CFF is a nice group - but they've had their internal tiffs as well. It's more touchy-feely than most of the splinter groups I've heard about -- I think they're trying to be like TWI was in the 70's. But what will happen next is unknown. Look what happened to TWI!!!!
Churches are more stable. A large church has a lot to offer. No one is looking at you too closely and you can keep as much distance as you want to from the inner workings of the church.
We couldn't do that in TWI, they always wanted more... Go WOW, go Corps, give more money, take another class, go to the Rock of Ages, take another class and on and on.... Churches make lots of stuff available - but aren't watching over you to make sure you do them.
Like I said -- call me -- we can go to International Plaza and get lunch again!
IMNSHO all of the offshoots are run by guys who apparently can't get(or don't want) a REAL job. They're so used to to having somebody else pull their weight that to transition to a "real" life would have been more than they care to bear.
Soooo, they've either deluded themselves into thinking that they have some sort of special ministry, OR, they're cynically keeping themselves in a job where the demands are few and there's no heavy lifting. Either way, they're a group I wouldn't care to spend any time with. Why they still have some popularity defies all logic in my mind.
If you're still of the mindset that there's some sort of loving entity watching over us all (and apparently not really doing much else)
I'd say, go to a nearby church where the demands on your time and resources are few, but you can still get the religious "high" that the spiritually-minded seem to seek.
Thanks Belle. I did not go searching that's for sure. I was reffered to them by someone here on GS who had checked out one of their meetings and thought it would be nice for me to have some support from some way corps who have been where I was. I am not looking to go backwards, thats for sure!
They say that they don't put anyone under bondage or legalism. I quess I am just searching for fellowship with christians that genually love God. It does not matter if they go to church. I have been standing alone for a long time. My husband kept me isolated even though we left.
I don't think I need a class for myself or any new people I meet. I have already been sharing the word with a couple of my girlfreinds I met in the last year. Why must all these men have to have a class? We can each just read our bible and we are certainly capable of teaching others.
I am in a battle with a leader here over my kids as well as my husband. I feel overwelmed at times but I don't want to get involved with the same old fellowship and the same people in the same living room sitting in the same class over and over. The horn get passed around and is it used to help the needy? Is it used to help believers?
I have been out of the splinter group for 6 years. My husband wished he had stayed and just listens to Geer tapes. I think his head is fried! LOL!! He did not want to go to church, WC was too good for that so I sat at home.
I am just now trying to decide what I do want for MY own life. I have read the threads on CFF and it seems alot of people say good things but no, I will most likely will not fit in there because I do speak my mind and I am not letting anyone cross my boundaries ever again.
I have been to several chuches, I have been in counseling for a year. I have taken classes on co dependency and boundaries. I had divorce care. I am most definetly trying to unlearn what I was taught except the word I know to be true and a man is not responsible for giving me that God is. I just read the bible daily with my boys and pray and that is what I enjoy. I do still need fellowhship and so do my kids.
I like the music in the church, I don't like the trinity taught but I am not going to argue over doctrine. I can separate truth from error, I'm a big girl! lol Those people do love God.
I go to a womens group and alot of women come who have alot of pain. I have been asked to become a group leader because I have alot of empathy and I share the word with them. That would of course require their training. I just know I want to turn my pain around and help people. That's what I am looking for. sorry for the long response. Thanks guys for trying to help me sort through all of this! Love Pink
We never did anything with a splinter group and I don't personally know anyone involved with CFF, so I can't give you specific advice about that, but what I would suggest is this:
I think when many of us left TWI we had a rip-roaring case of "iglesiophobia," fear of churches. (I just made that up!) I know the first time we went to a church, I was sure I would be struck dead right there in the pew when we all stood up to sing the doxology, you know, the one that ends "praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost." This church was small, very, very liberal, and kind of let us do what we wanted and didn't pressure us too much for a while. Eventually, we quit going there because of major, major differences in the direction they were heading and where we wanted to go. No offence, no M&A, love ya, see ya.
Now, we go to a church that is a real blessing to us, and hopefully, they are glad to have us aruond as well. Every day, I marvel at the differences between TWI and my church. A quick example: Last Friday I had an emergency appendectomy. Had been sick as a dog, called my husband to come home from school and take me to the nearest ER. Had surgery, came home the next day. How many people from my church have asked me what sin I committed to cause this to happen to me? Not one. How many TWI'ers would've? All of them. They prayed, sent cards and meals. My pastor actually came to see me and pray with me and make sure I was okay. In 1994 when I was in the hospital diagnosed with a horrible disease, I got visitors all right. No one prayed for me, and when I got back to Washington, I got criticism, guilt, and condemnation out the ying-yang.
Pinklady, if you have found a place where you can fellowship with loving Christians (that's not a bad word) and minister to others as well, go for it! It takes a long time for the TWI to leach out, but it will. If this church isn't the place, you will eventually figure it out and move on to whatever is.
I agree with Sushi and HopeR and the others... it sounds like you've found "something" already in the churche(s) / group(s)... everyone doesn't have to agree to everything right down the line... IF you've found a church, and you're fairly comfortable there and like the people, I'd stay with that for a while... you'll find safety in a multitude of counselors there as well, you'll likely find lots of people who love God with no hidden agenda...
plus... it'll give you some space to explore/develop in the personal areas you want to... at the pace you want to...
I have followed your story some and recall some of your experiences in the splinter group you were involved in.
I left TWI 15 months ago after 28 years....so am recently out also.
My 2 cents? Go with Pinklady's gut.....bottom line.....it's your life, nobody elses. And avoid/be alert to (which I'm sure you are) extremist thinking....from either side. God can work anywhere, anytime, anyway He deems appropriate (regardless of the title/group/etc.) I'm a strong advocate of not throwing the baby out with the bath water....and at the same time being aware that that same baby poops and throws up all over him/herself.
I have had great help/experience with CFF though I am not "involved" with CFF. I currently don't listen to the teachings, etc., but do have a contanct with some of the people. The folks I've had contact with/help from have asked nothing in return...literally nothing.
Cost of classes? Not much, imo. Plus you can copy the syllabi and give 'em away, just don't sell 'em or change 'em. I even copied one of the classes on tape from someone else's cds and was told that's okay.
Something else that hits my mind along these lines of "cult" groups: I've recently found a site regarding cultish "mindset." The site was started by a person involved in Scientology who left Scientology realizing the cultishness, and got involved with the anti-cult movement (acm). He realized that the acm is just as much a cult as cults. Imho, I tend to agree.
Here are two links to the site, short and concise reading. If you are so inclined; it may not be appropro for you.
"The cultic mindset can also be seen in a less dramatic and more subtle enactment of the above points. Mainly through the unquestioning acceptance of authority, the dependence of a fixed pattern of thought or behavior, and a willingness to rationalize unethical behavior.
The antidote against the cultic mindset is the willingness to question any accepted ideas, a priority given to truth over personal wishes, and a refusal to justify means over ends.
--------
Bernie
The best way to beat a cult mentality, is to be aware of what a cult is, then make sure you are not part of that mentality
Many of you know my horrible story in a splinter group and recently I met some people running a CFF fellowhip here. I quess I am very leary and gun shy.
I went to one fellowship. I did not take my kids. I feel I will check everything for a long time before getting them involved. I have read some things on here and I still am not sure if I am not jumping from the flame into the fire.
I have gone to a wonderful church recently and a great women's group that meets on the same night they have fellowships.
What would you do? I feel there is safety in a multitude of counselors and you are my freinds. What are some of your experiences with it?
Why do they charge so much for the classes? It is nice to talk to someone who understands where I have come from. They were very nice. But I can't go by that, can I?!!!!
PinkLady – you’ve got lots of great advice here from everyone – and like Sushi said you've answered your own question. It sounds like you’ve got something pretty good there…Personally, I feel anyone who leaves TWI has a lot more to deal with than just identifying the wrong doctrine they’ve absorbed. They’ve got to look inside themselves and investigate how TWI’s toxic doctrines polluted the way they function as a person. I ranted about this on CoolWater’s thread – and forgive me if I speak out of turn here – but I feel it’s probably a healthy choice for any God-loving Christian that leaves TWI to pick a local church…And I may be wrong on this too – but I think any TWI leader that leaves has NO BUSINESS starting their own ministry – just because of the toxic doctrine that has polluted their thinking process. And if they really have a desire to serve their fellow Christians – they need to cool their jets awhile and subject themselves to the tutelage of a local church. And if the former TWI leader has a hard time deciding which church to join – I’d suggest he join the one he criticized the most.
Thanks T Bone!! How funny you are when you said they should go to the church they critizied the most!!! LOL!!!!! AMEN !! Talk about ego!!
I am staring to laugh at the absurtity of these ego maniacs!!! I know my situation is not funny but when you try to tell normal people of the crap that you were involved in they just get this confused look on their faces like What?!!!!!! How could anyone fall for that?
Thanks all of you for bringing me back to the truth!! Hope, Yes lets do lunch soon!!! Love Pink!
i guess i don't get out enough. in the 20 years since i left twi, i have NEVER bumped into a current innie, or anyone in a splinter group. where are you hanging out that you meet these people? are they lurking at churches?
I'll have to invite you to my next family get together. No TWITs, but lots of splinters. Drty Dzn and I have never given any money to any offshoots, or gone to any fellowships, but we sure get alot of material from CES and CFF. Books from JAL, tapes from both groups, we use to get The Sower regularly, and I think we still get CFF's newsletter. I love my family, and I know they mean well, but sometimes they can be so unreal.
IMNSHO all of the offshoots are run by guys who apparently can't get(or don't want) a REAL job.
Actually, I always respected John Shroyer for having a real job, even though he was twi-ordained and while he had various twi positions over the years. He had his own printing business for many years. I don't know if he still does since he started CFF, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit. He's not your typical HQ big shot who never had a real job like LCM et al. Not at all.
PL, the best advice you've received is go with your gut. I've never been involved in CFF or listened to one of their tapes, but my impression is that it's nothing like CES/STF or Geer's group or some of the other more wacky-sounding offshoots. My percepction is that they've tried to perpetuate what they feel was good about the early twi fellowships, as Hope said, and shed the bad things about twi. I know several sane, loving people who fellowship with CFF and they seem perfectly content and unpressured and able to make their own decisions and live a normal life.
I talked with John S. a few years ago and asked him about how CFF got started. He told me that it started pretty spontaneously when a lot of people got M&A'd around HQ and were looking for others to fellowship with. If I remember correctly, he told me he really didn't set out to start a ministry or a church, but was just trying to help people who were hurt by twi and coming to him.
I like CFF, I rc'd thier tapes for a year so. I listened to thier Foundational class. They did a fine job. At this point I have meandered around several groups and have no fav. I was looking love and truth, must be the "Hippy in Me". Ive never participated in CES..
I cannot say, I like one group more than another, Its the healing I was looking for as well.
I was at CFF fellowships from '96-'98. They were OK. Interesting that kids seem to be a good barometer for whether someone's trying to exert undue influence over us or not.
Great advice Mr. Pipes. I think it's very wrong to criticize CFF and try to put them into a catagory of religious groups when they have encouraged all of us to just do the Word every day and reach out & support whomever is teaching truth.
We are never badgered by them to take a class and if we want we can own it. When a class is together it's because we want one & it blesses new people. All the materials can be copied (syllabus) so for about 20.00 to copy a 400 pg. class they can attend & if any grads want to come they are welcome to any, or all of the sessions. There is no pressure, so I think a few people here are still harbouring alot of hate & bitterness that will prevent healing in their lives until they give it up.
As Belle put it in her "prophecy" CFF will probably go the way of CES??? How unloving and fair. I sometimes wonder when some of these guys have even prayed for former leaders who are endeavouring to correct mistakes that were made by TWI. And yes, I do believe that PFAL was a Godly material to move the Word back in the 70's, just ask anyone who was so down & out and someone witnessed to them because they prayed to God and that class had a healing effect. So maybe it wasn't perfect, well I haven't seen anyones else here come up with something better or even try, just continue to criticize what they probably have never sat thru (meaning the classes at CFF).
So this gets so tiring hearing everyone & very loving people lumped into what they would have you believe is all wrong. Is there anything right anymore according to many older gs's. It's even tiring to hear this stuff anymore & yes there are many miracles at CFF & they support many other Godly ministries & ministers.
So some people here will always have a hardness of their hearts if they don't give it to God. Sorry I know some will not agree with me & that's ok but I try not to get involved with this backbiting any more, it's bs but sometimes they go way overboard. One posts then the next and they are all the authorities on every off shoot ministry. What have they done to move the Word. I would like to hear some of them share what Godly fellowships they are enjoying, just once.
hi pinklady, here is my two cents. i have relatives in cff that havent changed much since leaving twi...they believe all the same doctrines and they do think weirwille was a man of God...they are still very much estranged from mainstream christianity..wont read books from a christian bookstore, listen to mainstream christian music, steer clear from anything mainstream actually. you could run in to people like that who havent changed..im sure their are people who have changed, but why take a chance on being re-injured? their are lots of great places to try and warm poeple to meet in mainstream christianity. keep your chin up..((((((((pinklady))))))))
John:1, I guess that last paragragh of your sounded pretty harsh and back biting all by itself. Every bit as judgemental as the gs people that you critisize might appear to you.
*Good loving people that you have lumped into what you believe is wrong* is that not what you have done? How much more effective if you can make your otherwise very good point without being insulting and demeaning to *very loving people*?(granted a skill that I have yet to master :) )
You want stories of miracles and support? Then TELL them instead of complaining because nobody is doing what you want them to. Don`t be mad because someone else fails to perform as you deem appropriate...Shoot...speak up as to your experiences and perceptions with cff...I will speak as to mine...together maybe we will grow in the accuracy our understanding... ok?
Your input is valuable, your understanding and areas of strength will add to our over all understanding and flavor here. :)
(Oh, and just for your information, there have been many requests for prayer and stories of deliverance, rejoicing in blessings recieved. Maybe you just don`t know where to look. Try reading *the Joey is 7 thread* and others in the prayer forums.)
I guess that you holding your nose and self rightiously proclaiming our over all stenche here, would not inspire my confidence in your ability to clearly understand the hearts of so many people here, nor inspire me to trust any group that you want to represent.
Soot show us girl, be a representative of the good that your group has to offer, demonstrate by the fruit in your life/writing that the doctrine that you chose to believe is Godly. Don`t be afraid to be questioned, don`t be afraid to examine yourself.....
To simply point your finger and pronounce us all a bunch of doody heads, that merely confirms the worst that people who have not participated, believe about off shoots. :blink:
Edited: It was John Juedes, NOT John Shroyer who does the messiah777 site. Great information for breaking free of way brain. Those folks have my respect.
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Run.
Run away.
Run away fast.
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Sushi
I'm not religiously inclined, PL, but I think you've answered your own question.
This would be a BIG red flag to me. I would be leery also, considering our collective pasts. Once bitten, twice shy, and all that.
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Bramble
Ask yourself--who trained and ordained these leaders? What do they think about obeying leadership? What's their doctrine?
Do they have any type of greivance proceedings if leaders get out of hand?
Are you strong enough and able to deal with/discern when your personal boundaries are jumped?
Have you trained yourself to listen and obey with out thinking until later? Have you untrained yourself?
Is their an attitude/belief that wholeness can be quick fix if only you do/take/listen/obey to this class/leader/teaching etc?
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sprawled out
i guess i don't get out enough. in the 20 years since i left twi, i have NEVER bumped into a current innie, or anyone in a splinter group. where are you hanging out that you meet these people? are they lurking at churches?
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Belle
Pinklady, read the CES is in a Mess threads - take notes cause it's highly likely be seeing a CFF one someday, too.
WHY, when we can see and have learned from our experience with TWI and the rotten foundation it was built on, why on Earth would anyone want to get involved with a group that has TWI as IT'S foundation?
What are you hoping to get out of your involvement with CFF?
What are you looking for and what do you need that you think you can get from CFF?
It already seems like you've been "pitched" the same old, "Take our class" propaganda - and you're already wary of it. Do you think they're going to drop the pitch if you say you don't want to take the class when it's "foundational" to their ministry?
How long have you been out of TWI and the other splinter group(s)?
Have you done any reading and research on your own? Have you decided what YOU need in your life, or are you just jumping from one group to another hoping that they'll tell you what you need and how they can sell it to you for a nominal fee?
How many other churches have you visited? How many have you visited without wearing TWIt and/or offshoot blinders?
Why, if you love the women's group at one church, are you looking somewhere else? Or, were you not looking somewhere else, but now feel pressured to because of these CFF folks?
We all have to make our own path and, as Sushi says, the lessons are repeated until they are learned. Have you learned the lesson yet? If not, then maybe CFF is as good as the next offshoot.
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Belle
Good question, Sprawled Out.
I wonder that, too. I wonder if the offshoot folks look for those who unwillingly left TWI and who they think would most likely still be involved if the skeletons hadn't fallen out into plain view. Those are the sheep, the naive, the ...... who are most malleable and gullible to the tactics and structure of TWI, CES, CFF, Geer and all the other groups who have TWI as their foundation.
They don't bother folks who are strong in their independence and who have come to see the fraud that TWI is. Free thinkers, people who have built their self-esteem back up to normal and folks who have actually done enough reading and research to realize how effed up the teachings are - people like this are threatening to these groups. People like this can't be manipulated quite as easily and, therefore, are not going to produce a good Return On Investment. They aren't going to waste their time on folks they can't easily pickpocket.
But, that's just MY opinion, YMMV.
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Hope R.
PINKLADY!!!!
Call me ---
As far as CFF is concerned...
You go to a nice church, why bother with anything else right now?
CFF is a nice group - but they've had their internal tiffs as well. It's more touchy-feely than most of the splinter groups I've heard about -- I think they're trying to be like TWI was in the 70's. But what will happen next is unknown. Look what happened to TWI!!!!
Churches are more stable. A large church has a lot to offer. No one is looking at you too closely and you can keep as much distance as you want to from the inner workings of the church.
We couldn't do that in TWI, they always wanted more... Go WOW, go Corps, give more money, take another class, go to the Rock of Ages, take another class and on and on.... Churches make lots of stuff available - but aren't watching over you to make sure you do them.
Like I said -- call me -- we can go to International Plaza and get lunch again!
xoxoxo
Hope
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George Aar
Oh Lordy!
PL,
IMNSHO all of the offshoots are run by guys who apparently can't get(or don't want) a REAL job. They're so used to to having somebody else pull their weight that to transition to a "real" life would have been more than they care to bear.
Soooo, they've either deluded themselves into thinking that they have some sort of special ministry, OR, they're cynically keeping themselves in a job where the demands are few and there's no heavy lifting. Either way, they're a group I wouldn't care to spend any time with. Why they still have some popularity defies all logic in my mind.
If you're still of the mindset that there's some sort of loving entity watching over us all (and apparently not really doing much else)
I'd say, go to a nearby church where the demands on your time and resources are few, but you can still get the religious "high" that the spiritually-minded seem to seek.
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pinklady
Thanks Belle. I did not go searching that's for sure. I was reffered to them by someone here on GS who had checked out one of their meetings and thought it would be nice for me to have some support from some way corps who have been where I was. I am not looking to go backwards, thats for sure!
They say that they don't put anyone under bondage or legalism. I quess I am just searching for fellowship with christians that genually love God. It does not matter if they go to church. I have been standing alone for a long time. My husband kept me isolated even though we left.
I don't think I need a class for myself or any new people I meet. I have already been sharing the word with a couple of my girlfreinds I met in the last year. Why must all these men have to have a class? We can each just read our bible and we are certainly capable of teaching others.
I am in a battle with a leader here over my kids as well as my husband. I feel overwelmed at times but I don't want to get involved with the same old fellowship and the same people in the same living room sitting in the same class over and over. The horn get passed around and is it used to help the needy? Is it used to help believers?
I have been out of the splinter group for 6 years. My husband wished he had stayed and just listens to Geer tapes. I think his head is fried! LOL!! He did not want to go to church, WC was too good for that so I sat at home.
I am just now trying to decide what I do want for MY own life. I have read the threads on CFF and it seems alot of people say good things but no, I will most likely will not fit in there because I do speak my mind and I am not letting anyone cross my boundaries ever again.
I have been to several chuches, I have been in counseling for a year. I have taken classes on co dependency and boundaries. I had divorce care. I am most definetly trying to unlearn what I was taught except the word I know to be true and a man is not responsible for giving me that God is. I just read the bible daily with my boys and pray and that is what I enjoy. I do still need fellowhship and so do my kids.
I like the music in the church, I don't like the trinity taught but I am not going to argue over doctrine. I can separate truth from error, I'm a big girl! lol Those people do love God.
I go to a womens group and alot of women come who have alot of pain. I have been asked to become a group leader because I have alot of empathy and I share the word with them. That would of course require their training. I just know I want to turn my pain around and help people. That's what I am looking for. sorry for the long response. Thanks guys for trying to help me sort through all of this! Love Pink
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Watered Garden
PL,
We never did anything with a splinter group and I don't personally know anyone involved with CFF, so I can't give you specific advice about that, but what I would suggest is this:
I think when many of us left TWI we had a rip-roaring case of "iglesiophobia," fear of churches. (I just made that up!) I know the first time we went to a church, I was sure I would be struck dead right there in the pew when we all stood up to sing the doxology, you know, the one that ends "praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost." This church was small, very, very liberal, and kind of let us do what we wanted and didn't pressure us too much for a while. Eventually, we quit going there because of major, major differences in the direction they were heading and where we wanted to go. No offence, no M&A, love ya, see ya.
Now, we go to a church that is a real blessing to us, and hopefully, they are glad to have us aruond as well. Every day, I marvel at the differences between TWI and my church. A quick example: Last Friday I had an emergency appendectomy. Had been sick as a dog, called my husband to come home from school and take me to the nearest ER. Had surgery, came home the next day. How many people from my church have asked me what sin I committed to cause this to happen to me? Not one. How many TWI'ers would've? All of them. They prayed, sent cards and meals. My pastor actually came to see me and pray with me and make sure I was okay. In 1994 when I was in the hospital diagnosed with a horrible disease, I got visitors all right. No one prayed for me, and when I got back to Washington, I got criticism, guilt, and condemnation out the ying-yang.
Pinklady, if you have found a place where you can fellowship with loving Christians (that's not a bad word) and minister to others as well, go for it! It takes a long time for the TWI to leach out, but it will. If this church isn't the place, you will eventually figure it out and move on to whatever is.
I wish you the best and you're in my prayers.
WG
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Tom Strange
I agree with Sushi and HopeR and the others... it sounds like you've found "something" already in the churche(s) / group(s)... everyone doesn't have to agree to everything right down the line... IF you've found a church, and you're fairly comfortable there and like the people, I'd stay with that for a while... you'll find safety in a multitude of counselors there as well, you'll likely find lots of people who love God with no hidden agenda...
plus... it'll give you some space to explore/develop in the personal areas you want to... at the pace you want to...
best wishes and have fun at lunch with HopeR!
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I Love Bagpipes
PL,
I have not read all the responses here.
I have followed your story some and recall some of your experiences in the splinter group you were involved in.
I left TWI 15 months ago after 28 years....so am recently out also.
My 2 cents? Go with Pinklady's gut.....bottom line.....it's your life, nobody elses. And avoid/be alert to (which I'm sure you are) extremist thinking....from either side. God can work anywhere, anytime, anyway He deems appropriate (regardless of the title/group/etc.) I'm a strong advocate of not throwing the baby out with the bath water....and at the same time being aware that that same baby poops and throws up all over him/herself.
I have had great help/experience with CFF though I am not "involved" with CFF. I currently don't listen to the teachings, etc., but do have a contanct with some of the people. The folks I've had contact with/help from have asked nothing in return...literally nothing.
Cost of classes? Not much, imo. Plus you can copy the syllabi and give 'em away, just don't sell 'em or change 'em. I even copied one of the classes on tape from someone else's cds and was told that's okay.
Something else that hits my mind along these lines of "cult" groups: I've recently found a site regarding cultish "mindset." The site was started by a person involved in Scientology who left Scientology realizing the cultishness, and got involved with the anti-cult movement (acm). He realized that the acm is just as much a cult as cults.
Imho, I tend to agree.
Here are two links to the site, short and concise reading. If you are so inclined; it may not be appropro for you.
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/mirrors.htm (Mirrors)
http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/cult.htm (What is a cult?) The end of this one page article states:
"The cultic mindset can also be seen in a less dramatic and more subtle enactment of the above points. Mainly through the unquestioning acceptance of authority, the dependence of a fixed pattern of thought or behavior, and a willingness to rationalize unethical behavior.
The antidote against the cultic mindset is the willingness to question any accepted ideas, a priority given to truth over personal wishes, and a refusal to justify means over ends.
--------
Bernie
The best way to beat a cult mentality, is to be aware of what a cult is, then make sure you are not part of that mentality
(Shez) "
Best of luck PL....you'll be fine.
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T-Bone
PinkLady – you’ve got lots of great advice here from everyone – and like Sushi said you've answered your own question. It sounds like you’ve got something pretty good there…Personally, I feel anyone who leaves TWI has a lot more to deal with than just identifying the wrong doctrine they’ve absorbed. They’ve got to look inside themselves and investigate how TWI’s toxic doctrines polluted the way they function as a person. I ranted about this on CoolWater’s thread – and forgive me if I speak out of turn here – but I feel it’s probably a healthy choice for any God-loving Christian that leaves TWI to pick a local church…And I may be wrong on this too – but I think any TWI leader that leaves has NO BUSINESS starting their own ministry – just because of the toxic doctrine that has polluted their thinking process. And if they really have a desire to serve their fellow Christians – they need to cool their jets awhile and subject themselves to the tutelage of a local church. And if the former TWI leader has a hard time deciding which church to join – I’d suggest he join the one he criticized the most.
And I understand what you mean about how great it is to have someone to talk to that understands the nightmare we’ve escaped. I’m fortunate to have Tonto [my wife] who went through all that crap with me – TWI is murder on marriages. And obviously – I’ve saved the best for last – Grease Spot Café.
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pinklady
Thanks T Bone!! How funny you are when you said they should go to the church they critizied the most!!! LOL!!!!! AMEN !! Talk about ego!!
I am staring to laugh at the absurtity of these ego maniacs!!! I know my situation is not funny but when you try to tell normal people of the crap that you were involved in they just get this confused look on their faces like What?!!!!!! How could anyone fall for that?
Thanks all of you for bringing me back to the truth!! Hope, Yes lets do lunch soon!!! Love Pink!
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VeganXTC
I'll have to invite you to my next family get together. No TWITs, but lots of splinters. Drty Dzn and I have never given any money to any offshoots, or gone to any fellowships, but we sure get alot of material from CES and CFF. Books from JAL, tapes from both groups, we use to get The Sower regularly, and I think we still get CFF's newsletter. I love my family, and I know they mean well, but sometimes they can be so unreal.
Lots of love to you, PinkLady.
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Linda Z
Actually, I always respected John Shroyer for having a real job, even though he was twi-ordained and while he had various twi positions over the years. He had his own printing business for many years. I don't know if he still does since he started CFF, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit. He's not your typical HQ big shot who never had a real job like LCM et al. Not at all.
PL, the best advice you've received is go with your gut. I've never been involved in CFF or listened to one of their tapes, but my impression is that it's nothing like CES/STF or Geer's group or some of the other more wacky-sounding offshoots. My percepction is that they've tried to perpetuate what they feel was good about the early twi fellowships, as Hope said, and shed the bad things about twi. I know several sane, loving people who fellowship with CFF and they seem perfectly content and unpressured and able to make their own decisions and live a normal life.
I talked with John S. a few years ago and asked him about how CFF got started. He told me that it started pretty spontaneously when a lot of people got M&A'd around HQ and were looking for others to fellowship with. If I remember correctly, he told me he really didn't set out to start a ministry or a church, but was just trying to help people who were hurt by twi and coming to him.
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likeaneagle
I like CFF, I rc'd thier tapes for a year so. I listened to thier Foundational class. They did a fine job. At this point I have meandered around several groups and have no fav. I was looking love and truth, must be the "Hippy in Me". Ive never participated in CES..
I cannot say, I like one group more than another, Its the healing I was looking for as well.
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excathedra
i'm fairly certain they think wierwille was a man of god
correct me if i'm wrong
i say forget it
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Mr. Pipes
Pink Lady,
You need to go where you are comfortable. Here are the positives on CFF, IMO:
1. They do not ask for your allegience. They encourage people to either find a church or home fellowship they are
comfortable in and FUNCTION. They send their weekly teaching tapes/CDs for free. Most of the teachings are
quite positive and motivating. You don't have to attend one of their fellowships to be on their mailing list.
2. When you buy one of their classes you get the CD and syllabus for the class. The syllabus is almost a
transcript of the class. You listen, read if and when you want in YOUR home, car, etc. Use it as you want or give
it away when you're done. You're not recruiting people to take a class.
3. They do not ask you for $.
4. I've seen healings first hand and been the beneficiary of a couple as a result of CFF teachings on beleiving,
miracles, and gifts of healing. My beloved wife had an instanteous healing on more than one occassion when
ministered to by a CFF clergy (even over the phone).
Now, any church or home fellowship can have a wonderful or average or poor leader. If you're not comfortable with
the folks in the CFF fellowship (church in the home), go to the church where you're happy or keep looking.
Maybe you want to listen to some of their teachings on your own. Maybe you don't.
Don't be afraid of CFF.
Do be aware of ANY organization you commit your heart to, the Girl Scouts and PTA can be every bit as demanding
or demeaning as a bad home fellowship. Bad vibes and experiences are a warning. Abusive leaders or lazy
parents (in light of Girl Scouts and PTA) can be anywhere.
Walk boldly. Trust God. Go where you want to go and believe He will put who and what you need in front of you.
Good success in going where you want without FEAR.
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johniam
I was at CFF fellowships from '96-'98. They were OK. Interesting that kids seem to be a good barometer for whether someone's trying to exert undue influence over us or not.
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1 john 3:1
Great advice Mr. Pipes. I think it's very wrong to criticize CFF and try to put them into a catagory of religious groups when they have encouraged all of us to just do the Word every day and reach out & support whomever is teaching truth.
We are never badgered by them to take a class and if we want we can own it. When a class is together it's because we want one & it blesses new people. All the materials can be copied (syllabus) so for about 20.00 to copy a 400 pg. class they can attend & if any grads want to come they are welcome to any, or all of the sessions. There is no pressure, so I think a few people here are still harbouring alot of hate & bitterness that will prevent healing in their lives until they give it up.
As Belle put it in her "prophecy" CFF will probably go the way of CES??? How unloving and fair. I sometimes wonder when some of these guys have even prayed for former leaders who are endeavouring to correct mistakes that were made by TWI. And yes, I do believe that PFAL was a Godly material to move the Word back in the 70's, just ask anyone who was so down & out and someone witnessed to them because they prayed to God and that class had a healing effect. So maybe it wasn't perfect, well I haven't seen anyones else here come up with something better or even try, just continue to criticize what they probably have never sat thru (meaning the classes at CFF).
So this gets so tiring hearing everyone & very loving people lumped into what they would have you believe is all wrong. Is there anything right anymore according to many older gs's. It's even tiring to hear this stuff anymore & yes there are many miracles at CFF & they support many other Godly ministries & ministers.
So some people here will always have a hardness of their hearts if they don't give it to God. Sorry I know some will not agree with me & that's ok but I try not to get involved with this backbiting any more, it's bs but sometimes they go way overboard. One posts then the next and they are all the authorities on every off shoot ministry. What have they done to move the Word. I would like to hear some of them share what Godly fellowships they are enjoying, just once.
:)
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motherof2
hi pinklady, here is my two cents. i have relatives in cff that havent changed much since leaving twi...they believe all the same doctrines and they do think weirwille was a man of God...they are still very much estranged from mainstream christianity..wont read books from a christian bookstore, listen to mainstream christian music, steer clear from anything mainstream actually. you could run in to people like that who havent changed..im sure their are people who have changed, but why take a chance on being re-injured? their are lots of great places to try and warm poeple to meet in mainstream christianity. keep your chin up..((((((((pinklady))))))))
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rascal
John:1, I guess that last paragragh of your sounded pretty harsh and back biting all by itself. Every bit as judgemental as the gs people that you critisize might appear to you.
*Good loving people that you have lumped into what you believe is wrong* is that not what you have done? How much more effective if you can make your otherwise very good point without being insulting and demeaning to *very loving people*?(granted a skill that I have yet to master :) )
You want stories of miracles and support? Then TELL them instead of complaining because nobody is doing what you want them to. Don`t be mad because someone else fails to perform as you deem appropriate...Shoot...speak up as to your experiences and perceptions with cff...I will speak as to mine...together maybe we will grow in the accuracy our understanding... ok?
Your input is valuable, your understanding and areas of strength will add to our over all understanding and flavor here. :)
(Oh, and just for your information, there have been many requests for prayer and stories of deliverance, rejoicing in blessings recieved. Maybe you just don`t know where to look. Try reading *the Joey is 7 thread* and others in the prayer forums.)
I guess that you holding your nose and self rightiously proclaiming our over all stenche here, would not inspire my confidence in your ability to clearly understand the hearts of so many people here, nor inspire me to trust any group that you want to represent.
Soot show us girl, be a representative of the good that your group has to offer, demonstrate by the fruit in your life/writing that the doctrine that you chose to believe is Godly. Don`t be afraid to be questioned, don`t be afraid to examine yourself.....
To simply point your finger and pronounce us all a bunch of doody heads, that merely confirms the worst that people who have not participated, believe about off shoots. :blink:
Edited: It was John Juedes, NOT John Shroyer who does the messiah777 site. Great information for breaking free of way brain. Those folks have my respect.
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likeaneagle
rascal
what is the website addy, you speak of?
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