That is about the dumbest thing I've heard come out of TWI.
I can't have debt but I can sucker my parents into maintaining the burden of buying a house for me. That way, when TWI wants to move me somewhere else, I'm not responsible for the mortgage payments.
If debt is so evil, why is encouraging others to take it on for you acceptable?
And do these corpse realize how stupid they look doing this?
Common sense seems to be a foreign concept at The Way International.
If debt is so evil, why is encouraging others to take it on for you acceptable?
Exactly..!!
Could it possibly be........that certain corps leaders KNOW twi's no-debt/mortgage payment policy is simply another manipulating tool, BUT they, too, have to jump thru the hoops to stay within twi's confining system of control??
And......it wouldn't surprise me in the least, that if twi's bod confronted these limb coordinators, or slapped them with an assignment change to another state......they'd defect.
I know of at least three situations similar to that down here.
The TWIts say they are "renting" ... from their aunt/grandmother/parents.
What baffles me is the mental gymnastics that must be done to come to that conclusion - cognitive dissonance at its worst:
- Buying a home is a wise thing to do for so many reasons
- First and foremost, TWI will not take care of me when I get older
- I already have little to no retirement savings thanks to their teachings
- I'm not planning on leaving the area any time soon
- I'm just contributing to someone else's financial security by renting
- Rent goes up every year or so - mortgage payments stay the same
- I can spend money taking care of and beautifying someone else's property, or I can spend it on my own.
- I can buy more house than I can rent
- I can sleep better at night knowing that at least that aspect of retirement is taken care of
- What TWI teaches and requires is total and utter b.s.
- Who the he11 are they to tell me what to do with my money anyway?!
- I'm sick and tired of moving every year or so
- I'm sick and tired of having to help everyone else move every year or so
- Wouldn't it be nice if the kids could grow up in one place with friends they really have time to get to know and love?
- I'm afraid to leave TWI (why?)
- There's nothing better out there. (Hmmm.... is having to account for your personal spending and being micromanaged in your life really "better" than what might be out there?)
Then imagine how degrading and childish they must feel having to approach relatives to help them with this 'back door' policy.
Think of how that's just one more reason for the non-TWIt family members to hate TWI and the vice grip they have on their loved ones. One more reason for the family to pity the TWIts and cry at their inability to see how sold out they are to this group - not sold out to God, but to a group of religious zealots who control every aspect of their lives.
One more reason for the family to show them how true Godly people act and the unconditional love that Christ taught.
One more reason for the TWIts to wake up to what fools TWI doctrine is making of them.
One more reason for me to shake my head in disbelief at the b.s. I put up with and subjected myself to for too many years.
One more reason for me to praise God, laugh and sing my lungs out while driving home from my awesome job in my dreamy new Baja to my incredibly sweet little home where I live amongst the best neighbors a gal could ask for. One more reason for me to call my Daddy and thank him for humoring me, but presenting the facts in a very clear and logical manner without emotion, so that I could make my own decisions but still come to the conclusion that the expectations of TWI are without merit in the Bible, in the World and according to just plain common sense.
I mean, if they can't get this one basic, common sense issue correct, how the he11 can we expect anything else they teach to be accurate? My heart aches for the Ry@ns and their family. It must be very difficult for any of them to sleep at night. The Ry@ns for being dishonest, lying and deceitful.... and for how low they have had to stoop in order to take care of themselves. Their family for having to live with seeing their loved ones living that way. :(
I wonder how TWI would feel about a “Muslim mortgage”? Muslims are also forbidden by their religion to enter into debts. What they do is
(a ) Choose their house and get the bank to buy it
(b ) Make monthly “rental payments” to the bank (equivalent to interest and partial reduction of capital amount – ie, mortgage repayment by another name).
(c ) At the end of 25 years (or whenever the agreement says), the bank will transfer ownership to the “renter” for a nominal amount
Apparently this is okay because the buyer/renter doesn’t own the property and can walk away at any time having just made the rental payments.
It is increasingly popular amongst Muslims and seems ideal for TWIers saddled with the no debt policy.
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet
A debt by any other name would still require repayment
Please, nobody ask me for details, I don’t know sufficient but try this website:
I wonder how TWI would feel about a “Muslim mortgage”? Muslims are also forbidden by their religion to enter into debts. What they do is
(a ) Choose their house and get the bank to buy it
(b ) Make monthly “rental payments” to the bank (equivalent to interest and partial reduction of capital amount – ie, mortgage repayment by another name).
(c ) At the end of 25 years (or whenever the agreement says), the bank will transfer ownership to the “renter” for a nominal amount
Apparently this is okay because the buyer/renter doesn’t own the property and can walk away at any time having just made the rental payments.
It is increasingly popular amongst Muslims and seems ideal for TWIers saddled with the no debt policy.
Very interesting, Twinky.
There you go twi-innies............for a "nominal amount" the bank will establish a third party entity (held in trust) so that you can stay in good standing with twi. Just pay the extras.......and STOP begging your parents/grandparents to cover for your lack of believing.
Glad to help.
[PS.....of course, way corps have to tell twi's bod that they will NO LONGER take corps assignment changes from existing city. In other words, NOW corps are partly in charge of their future.]
With regards to this "Muslim Mortgage".......clearly, this banking arrangement has provided an avenue for many to stay within the confines of their no-debt approach to honor their religion.
But..........with twi, "Back Door Mortgage" with parents/grandparents involved has a whole different set of elements and intangibles. Doesn't twi leadership propound that "all believers can buy a home WITH CASH if they believe God".....or something to that effect?
And besides......field corps assignments generally change every 5-7 years, especially for limb coordinators and such. For corps leadership to be settling into a "25-year mortgage arrangement"...... its a whole different approach than the martindale era.
And really.........if the limb coordinators can do it, then fine. Preach it from the pulpit and let all the AC grads into the loop.
I knew of a situation where the leaders had purchased home right before the 'no debt' Berlin Wall went up. So, what they did was con their mother to purchase the home from them. She lived in southern USA at the time. So, she sold her house, moved to New England USA, purchased the house and moved in with the couple and their children.
I've heard of leadership advising people to get their families to buy them a house and "renting" it from them... the line went like this "if your parents care about you, they can buy you a house. what better use do they have for their money than helping you move the word?"...
uh, let's see... staying in retirement at the age of 70 sounds like a better use to me.
Well.....IF this surge of "back door mortgages" is across the USA, obviously rosalie and co. know about these situations and that many corps are NO LONGER taking corps assignment changes. Geeez.....those March Placement Meetings are probably not even needed anymore....except to cater to the Region guys and pontificate.
So really........"Believe God to raise the cash to buy a home outright" actually means "Go talk with your parents / grandparents and see if they'd be willing to buy you a house and let you make payments to them"......?????
Amazingly hypocritical.
The manipulatees have learned how to be the manipulators.
So really........"Believe God to raise the cash to buy a home outright" actually means "Go talk with your parents / grandparents and see if they'd be willing to buy you a house and let you make payments to them"......?????
Amazingly hypocritical.
The manipulatees have learned how to be the manipulators.
The kids raised in TWI can' even do that because their parents don't have the money and won't enter into debt either. :unsure: How can they buck the system?
And, isn't that a very strong indication that they DON'T BELIEVE what TWI's teaching? They obviously don't believe what TWI teaches about "owe no man anything".... what else don't they believe and how else are they living hypocritically and contrary to common sense?
[Regarding the "Muslim mortgage", I heard about a similar thing in Israel among ultra-Orthodox Jews. ]
It's amazing that these back-door TWI mortgages are not viewed as debt. What's the difference between owing to a bank and owing to a relative? For that matter, why is the obligation to pay rent every month not an debt according to TWI's definition?
When I was still "in", my HFC propunded a plan that he had found in a book called War Cycles, Peace Cycles (forgot the author). The plan to buy without going into debt involved a complicated plan whereby you would buy a percentage of the property, and the seller would retain partial ownership. In other words, if you were buying a $100,000 house and put down a $10,000 down payment, you would own 10% of the house. If you changed your mind, you would get 10% of the profit from selling it and the seller 90%. The more you paid to the seller, the greater the percentage that you would own, until presumeably you would reach 100%.
This HFC claimed to have began buying his home from his parents in this manner, but his parents died and he inherited the house (as well as the profitable family farm) from them. He touted this "plan" locally, and even wrote a paper about it and sent it to the BOT. I never heard of anyone esle doing this anywhere, but it continued to be promoted as a way to buy a home without going into debt at least through 2001 when I was booted out.
The kids raised in TWI can' even do that because their parents don't have the money and won't enter into debt either. :unsure: How can they buck the system?
And, isn't that a very strong indication that they DON'T BELIEVE what TWI's teaching? They obviously don't believe what TWI teaches about "owe no man anything".... what else don't they believe and how else are they living hypocritically and contrary to common sense?
Exactly..!!!
The twi kids CAN'T do this........their innie-parents are bottom-feeding off THEIR parents and will swallow up this equity thru their retirement years. It is any wonder WHY twi-kids are bolting......and getting careers far removed from twi-isolation..??
And.......back in 1996, when LCM addressed the "kids going to college issue"......his response on a corps teaching was in essence TRY TO GET THE GRANDPARENTS TO PAY FOR IT.
Geeez....such leeching, bottom-feeding tactics CAN'T be the sole answer for twi's corps to manuever thru life, can it????????
So much for the corps reading the George Mueller biography....and how he, day-by-day, believed God's providence in feeding and housing 120 (?) kids in the orphanage.
It's amazing that these back-door TWI mortgages are not viewed as debt. What's the difference between owing to a bank and owing to a relative? For that matter, why is the obligation to pay rent every month not an debt according to TWI's definition?
Oakspear.......I know, that's what seems so bizarre about twi's no-debt policies. There are TOO MANY flaws in twi's rhetoric...........just doesn't hold water. Like, you can "stiff" your parents or relatives (if you cut to another corps assignment in another city) .....and leave them with all the headaches, and that's okay or biblically justified????
IMO, it's two-faced doctrinal error like this that continues to give twi a black-eye. This whole issue of home ownership is a major concern for twi's aging corp and ac grads.
THE FIELD CORPS ALREADY KNOW....that twi is not going to do squat for them in the future, during their retirement years. The innie corps may be committed, but they are NOT insane.
Being in debt is being in debt. Just because it's called a Muslim Mortgage or because the debt is in the grandparents' name doesn't mean they aren't in debt. If they didn't pay cash for their house, then they are in debt.
They are now not only debtors and "off the word" ("the word" according to TWI), but also liars.
This is a wee bit off the topic, but not only was the centrally mandated debt "policy" illogical, but you had leaders out in the fellowships putting their own spin and interpretation on it.
My oldest son lived with our branch/limb coordinators for a year. He worked two part-time jobs, the paychecks from each were low enough that little or no federal taxes were being withheld. When he did his taxes he found out that he owed a couple of hundred dollars to the IRS. The idiot leader pronounced that my son was in debt and therefore, sinning :blink:
I tried to explain to him that my son's tax liability was a bill, just like anything, like a utility bill, and not debt. Idiot leader insisted that the only way to avoid being in debt over taxes was to have them take out too much so that you would receive a refund. Funny thing, Howard Allan suggested at a teaching at ROA '94 that it was better to break even or pay in a little rather than have the IRS hold your money interest-free all year.
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GT
That is about the dumbest thing I've heard come out of TWI.
I can't have debt but I can sucker my parents into maintaining the burden of buying a house for me. That way, when TWI wants to move me somewhere else, I'm not responsible for the mortgage payments.
If debt is so evil, why is encouraging others to take it on for you acceptable?
And do these corpse realize how stupid they look doing this?
Common sense seems to be a foreign concept at The Way International.
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skyrider
Exactly..!!
Could it possibly be........that certain corps leaders KNOW twi's no-debt/mortgage payment policy is simply another manipulating tool, BUT they, too, have to jump thru the hoops to stay within twi's confining system of control??
And......it wouldn't surprise me in the least, that if twi's bod confronted these limb coordinators, or slapped them with an assignment change to another state......they'd defect.
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bliss
I know some WC in Indy that are ''renting to own'' and boasting about that!
That is a real BAD DEAL for the ''renters'', and a VERY Good deal for the owners.
How can that be a fair exchange according to TWI?
See, people will do anything to stand approved before the BOD just to stay in the Way................even on
pain of poverty!
I know folks in Colorado that had their parents buy them a home so they could be Fellowship Coord~
so @$#^%$&*%#^*%*^%$%$#!@ stupid~!
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Ham
What I'd like to know, with the "needs basis" salary from HQ, how in the world can they AFFORD a mortgage payment?
Perhaps it is "subsidized" by contributions from the parents?
That's a big no-no in TWI terms also.
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Belle
The TWIts say they are "renting" ... from their aunt/grandmother/parents.
What baffles me is the mental gymnastics that must be done to come to that conclusion - cognitive dissonance at its worst:
- Buying a home is a wise thing to do for so many reasons
- First and foremost, TWI will not take care of me when I get older
- I already have little to no retirement savings thanks to their teachings
- I'm not planning on leaving the area any time soon
- I'm just contributing to someone else's financial security by renting
- Rent goes up every year or so - mortgage payments stay the same
- I can spend money taking care of and beautifying someone else's property, or I can spend it on my own.
- I can buy more house than I can rent
- I can sleep better at night knowing that at least that aspect of retirement is taken care of
- What TWI teaches and requires is total and utter b.s.
- Who the he11 are they to tell me what to do with my money anyway?!
- I'm sick and tired of moving every year or so
- I'm sick and tired of having to help everyone else move every year or so
- Wouldn't it be nice if the kids could grow up in one place with friends they really have time to get to know and love?
- I'm afraid to leave TWI (why?)
- There's nothing better out there. (Hmmm.... is having to account for your personal spending and being micromanaged in your life really "better" than what might be out there?)
Then imagine how degrading and childish they must feel having to approach relatives to help them with this 'back door' policy.
Think of how that's just one more reason for the non-TWIt family members to hate TWI and the vice grip they have on their loved ones. One more reason for the family to pity the TWIts and cry at their inability to see how sold out they are to this group - not sold out to God, but to a group of religious zealots who control every aspect of their lives.
One more reason for the family to show them how true Godly people act and the unconditional love that Christ taught.
One more reason for the TWIts to wake up to what fools TWI doctrine is making of them.
One more reason for me to shake my head in disbelief at the b.s. I put up with and subjected myself to for too many years.
One more reason for me to praise God, laugh and sing my lungs out while driving home from my awesome job in my dreamy new Baja to my incredibly sweet little home where I live amongst the best neighbors a gal could ask for. One more reason for me to call my Daddy and thank him for humoring me, but presenting the facts in a very clear and logical manner without emotion, so that I could make my own decisions but still come to the conclusion that the expectations of TWI are without merit in the Bible, in the World and according to just plain common sense.
I mean, if they can't get this one basic, common sense issue correct, how the he11 can we expect anything else they teach to be accurate? My heart aches for the Ry@ns and their family. It must be very difficult for any of them to sleep at night. The Ry@ns for being dishonest, lying and deceitful.... and for how low they have had to stoop in order to take care of themselves. Their family for having to live with seeing their loved ones living that way. :(
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Twinky
I wonder how TWI would feel about a “Muslim mortgage”? Muslims are also forbidden by their religion to enter into debts. What they do is
(a ) Choose their house and get the bank to buy it
(b ) Make monthly “rental payments” to the bank (equivalent to interest and partial reduction of capital amount – ie, mortgage repayment by another name).
(c ) At the end of 25 years (or whenever the agreement says), the bank will transfer ownership to the “renter” for a nominal amount
Apparently this is okay because the buyer/renter doesn’t own the property and can walk away at any time having just made the rental payments.
It is increasingly popular amongst Muslims and seems ideal for TWIers saddled with the no debt policy.
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet
A debt by any other name would still require repayment
Please, nobody ask me for details, I don’t know sufficient but try this website:
http://www.hsbcamanah.co.uk/amanahuk/index.html
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skyrider
Very interesting, Twinky.
There you go twi-innies............for a "nominal amount" the bank will establish a third party entity (held in trust) so that you can stay in good standing with twi. Just pay the extras.......and STOP begging your parents/grandparents to cover for your lack of believing.
Glad to help.
[PS.....of course, way corps have to tell twi's bod that they will NO LONGER take corps assignment changes from existing city. In other words, NOW corps are partly in charge of their future.]
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Belle
So the Muslims are hypocritical, too, eh? <_<
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skyrider
With regards to this "Muslim Mortgage".......clearly, this banking arrangement has provided an avenue for many to stay within the confines of their no-debt approach to honor their religion.
But..........with twi, "Back Door Mortgage" with parents/grandparents involved has a whole different set of elements and intangibles. Doesn't twi leadership propound that "all believers can buy a home WITH CASH if they believe God".....or something to that effect?
And besides......field corps assignments generally change every 5-7 years, especially for limb coordinators and such. For corps leadership to be settling into a "25-year mortgage arrangement"...... its a whole different approach than the martindale era.
And really.........if the limb coordinators can do it, then fine. Preach it from the pulpit and let all the AC grads into the loop.
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A la prochaine
Sky,
I knew of a situation where the leaders had purchased home right before the 'no debt' Berlin Wall went up. So, what they did was con their mother to purchase the home from them. She lived in southern USA at the time. So, she sold her house, moved to New England USA, purchased the house and moved in with the couple and their children.
Isn't that a fine 'how de' ye' do!'!!!!
:wacko: :wacko: :wacko:
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penguin
I heard just the other day about a similar situation with our local WC and I am not in any of the areas discussed above.
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A la prochaine
Maybe the couple you know spoke to the other couple at some TWI event and wham.... MAGIC... there's the THE answer they had asked God for.
POOR GOD!
:huh:
making insane policies like this make people do insane things.
ummmmm.... can anyone spell.. I-N-Q-U-I-S-I-T-I-O-N
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potato
I've heard of leadership advising people to get their families to buy them a house and "renting" it from them... the line went like this "if your parents care about you, they can buy you a house. what better use do they have for their money than helping you move the word?"...
uh, let's see... staying in retirement at the age of 70 sounds like a better use to me.
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skyrider
:blink:
:blink: :blink:
Looks like it IS a common practice....!!!
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polar bear
And what would cause people to do such a thing-could it be fear!
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skyrider
Well.....IF this surge of "back door mortgages" is across the USA, obviously rosalie and co. know about these situations and that many corps are NO LONGER taking corps assignment changes. Geeez.....those March Placement Meetings are probably not even needed anymore....except to cater to the Region guys and pontificate.
So really........"Believe God to raise the cash to buy a home outright" actually means "Go talk with your parents / grandparents and see if they'd be willing to buy you a house and let you make payments to them"......?????
Amazingly hypocritical.
The manipulatees have learned how to be the manipulators.
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Belle
The kids raised in TWI can' even do that because their parents don't have the money and won't enter into debt either. :unsure: How can they buck the system?
And, isn't that a very strong indication that they DON'T BELIEVE what TWI's teaching? They obviously don't believe what TWI teaches about "owe no man anything".... what else don't they believe and how else are they living hypocritically and contrary to common sense?
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Oakspear
[Regarding the "Muslim mortgage", I heard about a similar thing in Israel among ultra-Orthodox Jews. ]
It's amazing that these back-door TWI mortgages are not viewed as debt. What's the difference between owing to a bank and owing to a relative? For that matter, why is the obligation to pay rent every month not an debt according to TWI's definition?
When I was still "in", my HFC propunded a plan that he had found in a book called War Cycles, Peace Cycles (forgot the author). The plan to buy without going into debt involved a complicated plan whereby you would buy a percentage of the property, and the seller would retain partial ownership. In other words, if you were buying a $100,000 house and put down a $10,000 down payment, you would own 10% of the house. If you changed your mind, you would get 10% of the profit from selling it and the seller 90%. The more you paid to the seller, the greater the percentage that you would own, until presumeably you would reach 100%.
This HFC claimed to have began buying his home from his parents in this manner, but his parents died and he inherited the house (as well as the profitable family farm) from them. He touted this "plan" locally, and even wrote a paper about it and sent it to the BOT. I never heard of anyone esle doing this anywhere, but it continued to be promoted as a way to buy a home without going into debt at least through 2001 when I was booted out.
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polar bear
No debt? Another let's make the Word say what we want it to say. Another botched system of error that twi has gotten themselves into.
Every time you make a purchase on a credit card you are in debt. Where does it stop.
Doesn't this make more senese?
Buy a home, pay off the mortgage as soon as you can, then you are living debt free the rest of your life.
What the "heck" are they thinking, I guess theyr'e not.
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skyrider
Exactly..!!!
The twi kids CAN'T do this........their innie-parents are bottom-feeding off THEIR parents and will swallow up this equity thru their retirement years. It is any wonder WHY twi-kids are bolting......and getting careers far removed from twi-isolation..??
And.......back in 1996, when LCM addressed the "kids going to college issue"......his response on a corps teaching was in essence TRY TO GET THE GRANDPARENTS TO PAY FOR IT.
Geeez....such leeching, bottom-feeding tactics CAN'T be the sole answer for twi's corps to manuever thru life, can it????????
So much for the corps reading the George Mueller biography....and how he, day-by-day, believed God's providence in feeding and housing 120 (?) kids in the orphanage.
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skyrider
Oakspear.......I know, that's what seems so bizarre about twi's no-debt policies. There are TOO MANY flaws in twi's rhetoric...........just doesn't hold water. Like, you can "stiff" your parents or relatives (if you cut to another corps assignment in another city) .....and leave them with all the headaches, and that's okay or biblically justified????
IMO, it's two-faced doctrinal error like this that continues to give twi a black-eye. This whole issue of home ownership is a major concern for twi's aging corp and ac grads.
THE FIELD CORPS ALREADY KNOW....that twi is not going to do squat for them in the future, during their retirement years. The innie corps may be committed, but they are NOT insane.
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excathedra
is that how martindale's kids paid / pay for college ?
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Belle
Being in debt is being in debt. Just because it's called a Muslim Mortgage or because the debt is in the grandparents' name doesn't mean they aren't in debt.
If they didn't pay cash for their house, then they are in debt.
They are now not only debtors and "off the word" ("the word" according to TWI), but also liars.
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Oakspear
This is a wee bit off the topic, but not only was the centrally mandated debt "policy" illogical, but you had leaders out in the fellowships putting their own spin and interpretation on it.
My oldest son lived with our branch/limb coordinators for a year. He worked two part-time jobs, the paychecks from each were low enough that little or no federal taxes were being withheld. When he did his taxes he found out that he owed a couple of hundred dollars to the IRS. The idiot leader pronounced that my son was in debt and therefore, sinning :blink:
I tried to explain to him that my son's tax liability was a bill, just like anything, like a utility bill, and not debt. Idiot leader insisted that the only way to avoid being in debt over taxes was to have them take out too much so that you would receive a refund. Funny thing, Howard Allan suggested at a teaching at ROA '94 that it was better to break even or pay in a little rather than have the IRS hold your money interest-free all year.
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