Sounds like Paul is speaking in this way not to bring attention to himself and that it was God who gave him this revelation or glimpse of paradise. He was going through alot, maybe this is what Paul needed to continue.
I agree Polar Bear. I think the reason he didn't know if he was in the body or out of the body is because he wasn't fully "awake" at that point. You know how when we dream at night, we don't realize its just a dream until we wake up. Not that I think he was literally sleeping, but looking through a glass darkly, like I Corinthians 13:12
Great article by Stedman –thanks for that link, Bliss – and yes it is interesting to compare some differences on topics that are peripheral to this thread – like Stedman's reference to the three different usages of "heaven" – a difference in location – not a difference in time as VPW taught. That's one reason I no longer subscribe to the "gap theory" [VPW said the first and second heaven and earth are separated in time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 and is attributed to the time-frame of Lucifer's rebellion with the ensuing catastrophic cosmic upheaval]. Stedman’s handling the third heaven as God’s realm is similar to what I’ve read in a few commentaries – interesting that Stedman likened it to a fourth dimension. Lot’s of stuff to think about. What’s it like in God’s realm? I imagine it’s a timeless place – don’t know – never been there. What if God transports someone there. Is it time-travel to the person? How much would Disneyland charge for a ride like that?
About Paul's reference in/out of the body – I find it most intriguing he refers to himself in the third person. If that was me I would have been boasting all over the place "I was caught up into Paradise – me – me – what an experience!"…I wonder how long before Paul wrote of it that he had this experience – and it just burned silently like a fiery comet in his humble soul. The treachery these false apostles were committing forced Paul's hand – he wasn't a braggart…
…I've also wondered about John's experience of the future – which he relates in the book of Revelation. The way John talks I get the idea he actually experienced those things – like he was there – like God did a time-travel thing for John. I know – sounds nutty – but I think sometimes when I used to read Revelation my mind assumed certain parts are a vision – you know – in other words the person isn't really there – God is just showing them a video or something…So maybe there's some similarities between Paul's and John's experience – an out-of-the-body experience…a time-travel experience – whatever it was the experience was indescribable…What also intrigues me is Paul's use of "caught up" – If my memory serves me right I think it's the same Greek word [not around my research books right now] used in I Thessalonians about the Rapture – not a vision – but an actual event that will physically transform and transport believers:
I Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
I love that verse let me write a RWP III or year2027 translation
(2 Corinthians 12:1) RWP III "It is not for me to bring together unbelieverable glory, as I come by visions and reveations from the Lord and of the Lord. (2.) I Paul knew a man in Christ fourteen years now. whether in the fleshly body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the fleshly body, I cannot tell; but God knoweth; such an one caught up to the spiritul third heaven. (3.) And I knew such a man's face, whether in the fleshly body, or out of the fleshly body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; (4.) How that he Christ was caught up into paradise, and I heard unspeakable words, which it is not speakable by a man's mouth."
Otherwise Paul had a outer body tavel were Paul met Christ in the third heaven the space between space in the heart of Paul which he saw things that could not be put into natural words - spiritual things -- which can only be known fleshly in part.
your spirit can travel to the stars or they can sat next to Christ in a circle because the space that is here is the same space that is there because spiritual things are everywhere as God is everywhere
I do not believe the Christ within us receives a body until its put on
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
this new body is incorruption and immortality both the same word a spiritual body kind one like God
today we have a fleshly body but one day we will put on a new body and I believe this body will be the spiritual one
a egg is a egg until something breakes out of the egg or a seed is a seed until something breakes out of the seed
the seed of Christ is a seed within us until it breakes out of the fleshly body which is the shell of the seed of Christ
until the sound of the fleshly seed breaking out into a new body
You know how when we dream at night, we don't realize its just a dream until we wake up. Not that I think he was literally sleeping, but looking through a glass darkly, like I Corinthians 13:12
Dreams and visions are mentioned together so often, I think they must be a lot alike.God knows.
out of the flesh body riding in the seed of Christ traveling on the light ray of the gift holy spirit
within the seed are spiritual eyes or within the seed is a body but until we break out of seed to do not begin as a life kind like God
then we are born -- this birth is putting on our new body one like God but one the grow inside our seed of Christ
its like we have a spiritual body and like we do not a spiritual body
the third heaven or the third space one of spiritual space
but its hard to put in words for me but I see if if I am traveling too
I all so time means nothing we have lived, we will live, and we are living now the full circle is happen at the same time because the seed of us see's all
Great thread, Cman – I love it when everyone thinks out loud – great posts! I know we're getting into a lot of speculation here – but I figure as long as that's acceptable to all - imho that makes doctrinal discussions great fun! So far, as I read and re-read the passage and consider other references by Paul of the qualities of the heavenly realm – I lean towards his in/out of the body reference as an actual physical event that happened to him – as opposed to a vision or some intellectual enlightenment kind of thing.
The words "caught up" in II Corinthians 12: 2, 4 is indeed from the same Greek word harpazo used in I Thessalonians 4:17; a few of the other occurrences are in: Matthew 11:12 "…the violent take it by force…", John 6:15 "…would come and take him by force…", Acts 8:39 "…the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip…", Revelation 12:5 "…her child was caught up unto God…". From the usages the verb harpazo appears to be an actual moving, seizing or taking of something by force. In addition, it is something of a physical nature – in other words not an intellectual grasping of an idea – but a physical grabbing of an object or person. That's why I tend to view Paul's experience as a real, physical experience – and not a vision – which would be a manifestation of something immaterial.
Getting back to Paul's in/out of the body reference here's the passage from Michael Magill's New Testament Transline of II Corinthians 12: 1-4. The introduction of Magill's translation says it's a literal translation arranged in outline format so as not only to translate the words, but also to visually display the flow of thought contained in the Greek words.
II Corinthians 12:1-4
1 It-is-necessary to boast. It is not beneficial – but I will come to visions and revelations from the Lord
2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago
whether in the body, I do not know, or outside of the body, I do not know, God knows
That such a one was snatched-away to the third heaven
3 And I know such a man
Whether in the body or apart from the body, I do not know. God knows
4 That he was snatched away into paradise, and heard unspeakable words which are not permitted for a man to
speak
That the experience might have been more than a vision is suggested by "revelations" in verse 1. I imagine one way God could reveal something hidden to a person is by actually taking them to the place where it is hidden…
…Was this an out-of-the-body experience? I don't know…Part of me says "maybe so" with the way he flip flops on whether it was in or out of his body. If he was "in the body" – he was literally taken into heaven by the power of God. If he was "apart from the body" – I guess he was some kind of disembodied spirit. Maybe the experience was so unusual, so fantastic, so disorienting, so other-worldly – that Paul found it impossible to relate what his senses took in. If this was indeed an actual physical transportation to the heavenly realm…to some other dimension…I don't know – somewhere – maybe he had a hard time figuring out how God pulled it off [noted by his saying "I don't know"]. What would a cave man make of time-traveling scientists throwing a space suit on him, shoving him into a space capsule, shooting him out into space, and then having him take a walk outside while tethered to the capsule?...Yeah you're right – ol' Alley Oop would probably be longing to get back to his honey Raquel Welch in that tight little animal skin outfit.
I wonder if some of why he speaks of himself in the third person is perhaps more than just an attempt to take the spotlight off himself – maybe how people will sometimes reflect on a profound experience – playing back the memory – "watching it" almost as if it were a movie of someone else…
Anyway…I heavily lean towards it being something Paul actually experienced in his earthly body – noting Paul saying he "heardunspeakable words" in verse 4. Magill notes in his translation that "unspeakable" has two senses – because it is beyond human ability, or not to be spoken because it is too holy – which is probably the meaning in view of the "not permitted to speak" which follows…Also considering that he mentions hearing leads me to think this was a physical experience, that he had all his senses – overloaded with sensations way over the top! What does heaven smell like?
…I used to think of the spiritual realm as some immaterial world – with wispy ghost-like beings – nothing of any real substance. However, a few books I've read have got me wondering if the "spiritual realm" is just as physical as the ground upon which we walk – but remains hidden to our way of sensing things. The books talk about other dimensions, super-string theory, physics, etc. There's The Extra-Dimensionality of God – Beyond the Cosmos: What Recent Discoveries in Astronomy and Physics Reveal about the Nature of God by Hugh Ross. Stephen Hawking'sA Brief History of Time, The Universe in a Nutshell, and The Illustrated Theory of Everything. Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, and The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality…Maybe that's why God unites souls with bodies in the Rapture and resurrections – for a soul to experience eternity it needs a body – an eternal body.
…So did Paul experience dimension-travel? Was it an in-body-but-out-of-this-world experience? I'm thinking he really went some where – the third heaven – where is that? Another dimension? Or dimensions - some string theorists suggest there's at least 10 dimensions. What's the physical properties of that place – or does it have any? What did he see, hear, feel, while there? Perhaps there's a whole lot more that he knew than what he wrote about like in
II Corinthians 4:17 NIV
For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.
Maybe he actually caught a glimpse of what awaits us! And maybe he got an idea of what our new bodies will be like during his visit there – interesting to think about when you read passages like I Corinthians 15:35-58 and II Corinthians 5:1-5.
I like threads where people talk and not nit-pick about words but try to gain the meanings and values being expressed.
Another way of putting it would be having a conversation.
And not that the definitions of words don't have importance but that the ideas expressed by words being put together in order to get the many ideas flowing. Conversations should flow like rivers of water from the heart.
Because everyone is different and has different perspectives, and everyone is the same cause we were all cut from the same stone. Just different angles and shapes of thinking that can be seen if we just try to see from different angles. And help to reshape that stone into a more flexible useful tool for helping each other.
Because everyone is different and has different perspectives, and everyone is the same cause we were all cut from the same stone. Just different angles and shapes of thinking that can be seen if we just try to see from different angles. And help to reshape that stone into a more flexible useful tool for helping each other.
Good conversation. We know there are bodies terrestial as well as bodies celestial.
From some books I've read also, many people believe that the spiritual dimension is much heavier, or denser, so to speak than this physical dimension we live in.
When Christ in his resurrected body was able to pass through walls in this dimension, I wonder if it was because his new "true" spiritual body was much heavier, denser, and suited for the dimension he now inhabits. I didn't understand this until I was driving to work one morning through fog. Fog is a substance, but because I am much denser than it, I am easily able to pass through it. Simplistic - yes, because I'm not a scientist, but it makes sense.
Angels who just "appear" out of nowhere, help someone and then are gone. They step through, help, and step back again.
In some ways, you could almost say, the spiritual world, or dimension "heaven" is all around us - not up in outer space in the universe somewhere. If the spiritual world is the "real" world, our physical universe would be the "shadow" world so to speak, the fog in the midst of true reality.
Most people look at this world as the "true" reality and another dimension - or heaven - something outside - is the shadow realm. I think maybe we have it backwards, we are the fog, shadow, lying in the midst of the true - outside our physical senses.
Yet God, in his grace, allows his messengers a peek into the heavenly dimension. How he does it, I don't know. Even Paul didn't know. He just knew that it happened.
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DrtyDzn
Is it the man he knew that was either in the body or out or was Paul speaking of himself as being in or out of the body?
Jerry
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cman
Good question Jerry.
I always had thought he was talking about John.
But Paul also talks about visions and revelations revealed to himself in the same chapter.
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Belle
Astral travelling - Remote Viewing - Shamanic experience maybe?
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bliss
Here is an interesting article to check out on that verse.
Ray Stedman
http://www.pbc.org/library/files/html/3696.html
It is interesting to note the key differences he handles the Word in comparison to "way teachings''.
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polar bear
Sounds like Paul is speaking in this way not to bring attention to himself and that it was God who gave him this revelation or glimpse of paradise. He was going through alot, maybe this is what Paul needed to continue.
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VeganXTC
I agree Polar Bear. I think the reason he didn't know if he was in the body or out of the body is because he wasn't fully "awake" at that point. You know how when we dream at night, we don't realize its just a dream until we wake up. Not that I think he was literally sleeping, but looking through a glass darkly, like I Corinthians 13:12
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T-Bone
Great article by Stedman –thanks for that link, Bliss – and yes it is interesting to compare some differences on topics that are peripheral to this thread – like Stedman's reference to the three different usages of "heaven" – a difference in location – not a difference in time as VPW taught. That's one reason I no longer subscribe to the "gap theory" [VPW said the first and second heaven and earth are separated in time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 and is attributed to the time-frame of Lucifer's rebellion with the ensuing catastrophic cosmic upheaval]. Stedman’s handling the third heaven as God’s realm is similar to what I’ve read in a few commentaries – interesting that Stedman likened it to a fourth dimension. Lot’s of stuff to think about. What’s it like in God’s realm? I imagine it’s a timeless place – don’t know – never been there. What if God transports someone there. Is it time-travel to the person? How much would Disneyland charge for a ride like that?
About Paul's reference in/out of the body – I find it most intriguing he refers to himself in the third person. If that was me I would have been boasting all over the place "I was caught up into Paradise – me – me – what an experience!"…I wonder how long before Paul wrote of it that he had this experience – and it just burned silently like a fiery comet in his humble soul. The treachery these false apostles were committing forced Paul's hand – he wasn't a braggart…
…I've also wondered about John's experience of the future – which he relates in the book of Revelation. The way John talks I get the idea he actually experienced those things – like he was there – like God did a time-travel thing for John. I know – sounds nutty – but I think sometimes when I used to read Revelation my mind assumed certain parts are a vision – you know – in other words the person isn't really there – God is just showing them a video or something…So maybe there's some similarities between Paul's and John's experience – an out-of-the-body experience…a time-travel experience – whatever it was the experience was indescribable…What also intrigues me is Paul's use of "caught up" – If my memory serves me right I think it's the same Greek word [not around my research books right now] used in I Thessalonians about the Rapture – not a vision – but an actual event that will physically transform and transport believers:
I Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
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cman
Yeah T-Bone, wouldn't that be somethin.
How is it these people knew so much anyway, and could do so much.
Certainly they had a bit of knowledge with a little work.
But how much was actually the spirit at work.
I've heard that we give 10% and God gives 100%.
So so much for boasting, not only in salvation but all things.
Do we see things or are we shown things.
Giving a little, in a bit of a sweat to let that transformation occur.
Why shouldn't all that in rev. and thess. be able to happen now.
Just takes seeing it different, from the source.
He will not dissappoint anyone I believe it says.
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year2027
God first
Beloved cman
God loves you my dear friend
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love that verse let me write a RWP III or year2027 translation
(2 Corinthians 12:1) RWP III "It is not for me to bring together unbelieverable glory, as I come by visions and reveations from the Lord and of the Lord. (2.) I Paul knew a man in Christ fourteen years now. whether in the fleshly body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the fleshly body, I cannot tell; but God knoweth; such an one caught up to the spiritul third heaven. (3.) And I knew such a man's face, whether in the fleshly body, or out of the fleshly body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; (4.) How that he Christ was caught up into paradise, and I heard unspeakable words, which it is not speakable by a man's mouth."
Otherwise Paul had a outer body tavel were Paul met Christ in the third heaven the space between space in the heart of Paul which he saw things that could not be put into natural words - spiritual things -- which can only be known fleshly in part.
your spirit can travel to the stars or they can sat next to Christ in a circle because the space that is here is the same space that is there because spiritual things are everywhere as God is everywhere
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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cman
Hi Roy,
I don't know if that's the fleshly body or the body of Christ.
As meaning the functioning spiritual body here on earth.
If we go to the head are we still in the body?
Not sure if you get my meaning.
Does the Christ need a body when we are one in him?
Or is the body for others....as in helping one another.
I've heard a few different things on this.
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year2027
God first
Beloved cman
God loves us my dear friend
I do not believe the Christ within us receives a body until its put on
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
this new body is incorruption and immortality both the same word a spiritual body kind one like God
today we have a fleshly body but one day we will put on a new body and I believe this body will be the spiritual one
a egg is a egg until something breakes out of the egg or a seed is a seed until something breakes out of the seed
the seed of Christ is a seed within us until it breakes out of the fleshly body which is the shell of the seed of Christ
until the sound of the fleshly seed breaking out into a new body
in the body of flesh or outside the body of flesh
the body of Christ is a spiritual body
but this is just me
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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DrtyDzn
Dreams and visions are mentioned together so often, I think they must be a lot alike.God knows.
Jerry
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cman
Yes Roy, true even while we live today.
How can we see with eyes of Christ.
Howm can we touch with hand of Christ.
Without Christ at work within.
A seed...the seed as promised.
Your seed which is Christ.
It sprouts and sustains itself through itself.
Putting it on, this mind of Christ is our 10%.
We let That Christ work the rest of the 100%.
Where it takes us is quite the journey.
Even caught up to the third heaven.
So what body is he out of? Wether it was Paul or John or both.
Could be the flesh, seeing it that way even as i type.
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VeganXTC
:)
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cman
Well actually it says 'i cannot tell'
does that mean he can't tell as in not knowing
or he won't tell
yeah Vegan God knows.
God point, it's his business anyway.
:)
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year2027
God first
Beloved cman
God loves us my dear friend
out of the flesh body riding in the seed of Christ traveling on the light ray of the gift holy spirit
within the seed are spiritual eyes or within the seed is a body but until we break out of seed to do not begin as a life kind like God
then we are born -- this birth is putting on our new body one like God but one the grow inside our seed of Christ
its like we have a spiritual body and like we do not a spiritual body
the third heaven or the third space one of spiritual space
but its hard to put in words for me but I see if if I am traveling too
I all so time means nothing we have lived, we will live, and we are living now the full circle is happen at the same time because the seed of us see's all
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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cman
hmmm yeah, hard to put in words. on fire there Roy!
i think that is what is meant by not lawful to speak
it's words so unspeakable being the point
revelations is proof of that
being giant murals of truth being expressed imo
has to be the work and knowing that no man need teach, or can
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T-Bone
Great thread, Cman – I love it when everyone thinks out loud – great posts! I know we're getting into a lot of speculation here – but I figure as long as that's acceptable to all - imho that makes doctrinal discussions great fun! So far, as I read and re-read the passage and consider other references by Paul of the qualities of the heavenly realm – I lean towards his in/out of the body reference as an actual physical event that happened to him – as opposed to a vision or some intellectual enlightenment kind of thing.
The words "caught up" in II Corinthians 12: 2, 4 is indeed from the same Greek word harpazo used in I Thessalonians 4:17; a few of the other occurrences are in: Matthew 11:12 "…the violent take it by force…", John 6:15 "…would come and take him by force…", Acts 8:39 "…the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip…", Revelation 12:5 "…her child was caught up unto God…". From the usages the verb harpazo appears to be an actual moving, seizing or taking of something by force. In addition, it is something of a physical nature – in other words not an intellectual grasping of an idea – but a physical grabbing of an object or person. That's why I tend to view Paul's experience as a real, physical experience – and not a vision – which would be a manifestation of something immaterial.
Getting back to Paul's in/out of the body reference here's the passage from Michael Magill's New Testament Transline of II Corinthians 12: 1-4. The introduction of Magill's translation says it's a literal translation arranged in outline format so as not only to translate the words, but also to visually display the flow of thought contained in the Greek words.
II Corinthians 12:1-4
1 It-is-necessary to boast. It is not beneficial – but I will come to visions and revelations from the Lord
2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago
whether in the body, I do not know, or outside of the body, I do not know, God knows
That such a one was snatched-away to the third heaven
3 And I know such a man
Whether in the body or apart from the body, I do not know. God knows
4 That he was snatched away into paradise, and heard unspeakable words which are not permitted for a man to
speak
That the experience might have been more than a vision is suggested by "revelations" in verse 1. I imagine one way God could reveal something hidden to a person is by actually taking them to the place where it is hidden…
…Was this an out-of-the-body experience? I don't know…Part of me says "maybe so" with the way he flip flops on whether it was in or out of his body. If he was "in the body" – he was literally taken into heaven by the power of God. If he was "apart from the body" – I guess he was some kind of disembodied spirit. Maybe the experience was so unusual, so fantastic, so disorienting, so other-worldly – that Paul found it impossible to relate what his senses took in. If this was indeed an actual physical transportation to the heavenly realm…to some other dimension…I don't know – somewhere – maybe he had a hard time figuring out how God pulled it off [noted by his saying "I don't know"]. What would a cave man make of time-traveling scientists throwing a space suit on him, shoving him into a space capsule, shooting him out into space, and then having him take a walk outside while tethered to the capsule?...Yeah you're right – ol' Alley Oop would probably be longing to get back to his honey Raquel Welch in that tight little animal skin outfit.
I wonder if some of why he speaks of himself in the third person is perhaps more than just an attempt to take the spotlight off himself – maybe how people will sometimes reflect on a profound experience – playing back the memory – "watching it" almost as if it were a movie of someone else…
Anyway…I heavily lean towards it being something Paul actually experienced in his earthly body – noting Paul saying he "heard unspeakable words" in verse 4. Magill notes in his translation that "unspeakable" has two senses – because it is beyond human ability, or not to be spoken because it is too holy – which is probably the meaning in view of the "not permitted to speak" which follows…Also considering that he mentions hearing leads me to think this was a physical experience, that he had all his senses – overloaded with sensations way over the top! What does heaven smell like?
…I used to think of the spiritual realm as some immaterial world – with wispy ghost-like beings – nothing of any real substance. However, a few books I've read have got me wondering if the "spiritual realm" is just as physical as the ground upon which we walk – but remains hidden to our way of sensing things. The books talk about other dimensions, super-string theory, physics, etc. There's The Extra-Dimensionality of God – Beyond the Cosmos: What Recent Discoveries in Astronomy and Physics Reveal about the Nature of God by Hugh Ross. Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time, The Universe in a Nutshell, and The Illustrated Theory of Everything. Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, and The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality…Maybe that's why God unites souls with bodies in the Rapture and resurrections – for a soul to experience eternity it needs a body – an eternal body.
…So did Paul experience dimension-travel? Was it an in-body-but-out-of-this-world experience? I'm thinking he really went some where – the third heaven – where is that? Another dimension? Or dimensions - some string theorists suggest there's at least 10 dimensions. What's the physical properties of that place – or does it have any? What did he see, hear, feel, while there? Perhaps there's a whole lot more that he knew than what he wrote about like in
II Corinthians 4:17 NIV
For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.
Maybe he actually caught a glimpse of what awaits us! And maybe he got an idea of what our new bodies will be like during his visit there – interesting to think about when you read passages like I Corinthians 15:35-58 and II Corinthians 5:1-5.
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cman
Hi T-Bone,
I like threads where people talk and not nit-pick about words but try to gain the meanings and values being expressed.
Another way of putting it would be having a conversation.
And not that the definitions of words don't have importance but that the ideas expressed by words being put together in order to get the many ideas flowing. Conversations should flow like rivers of water from the heart.
Because everyone is different and has different perspectives, and everyone is the same cause we were all cut from the same stone. Just different angles and shapes of thinking that can be seen if we just try to see from different angles. And help to reshape that stone into a more flexible useful tool for helping each other.
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cman
I like to see from anothers point of view.
Kind of like jumping into someone else's thoughts.
And gaining a perspective that can be seen by no other way,
but to put ourselves in anothers brain and seeing through their eyes.
Not easy over the net, but can be done I believe.
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VeganXTC
I like your avatar Cman
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cman
Thanks Vegan,
I like yours too.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Cman
God loves us all my dear friend
I just had to tell how the statement below blessed me its a great truth
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Because everyone is different and has different perspectives, and everyone is the same cause we were all cut from the same stone. Just different angles and shapes of thinking that can be seen if we just try to see from different angles. And help to reshape that stone into a more flexible useful tool for helping each other.
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thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Sunesis
Good conversation. We know there are bodies terrestial as well as bodies celestial.
From some books I've read also, many people believe that the spiritual dimension is much heavier, or denser, so to speak than this physical dimension we live in.
When Christ in his resurrected body was able to pass through walls in this dimension, I wonder if it was because his new "true" spiritual body was much heavier, denser, and suited for the dimension he now inhabits. I didn't understand this until I was driving to work one morning through fog. Fog is a substance, but because I am much denser than it, I am easily able to pass through it. Simplistic - yes, because I'm not a scientist, but it makes sense.
Angels who just "appear" out of nowhere, help someone and then are gone. They step through, help, and step back again.
In some ways, you could almost say, the spiritual world, or dimension "heaven" is all around us - not up in outer space in the universe somewhere. If the spiritual world is the "real" world, our physical universe would be the "shadow" world so to speak, the fog in the midst of true reality.
Most people look at this world as the "true" reality and another dimension - or heaven - something outside - is the shadow realm. I think maybe we have it backwards, we are the fog, shadow, lying in the midst of the true - outside our physical senses.
Yet God, in his grace, allows his messengers a peek into the heavenly dimension. How he does it, I don't know. Even Paul didn't know. He just knew that it happened.
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