One of the things I've noticed on this thread is how many of us didn't speak up about the "slave labor" we performed.
Face it - we were used, in more ways than digging ditches.
As Sky said:
...I found out things that were very disturbing to me. In the early 90s, Martindale had taken his license of lust and was "jumping the bones" of several that I knew.
Whatever we were asked to do - it was expected of us. Very few said "no" for fear of the dreaded M&A status that would be imposed on us if we refused.
Remember the verse "Whatsoever ye do, [work] heartily as unto the Lord and not unto men" ? That verse was held over our heads if we ever challenged their work day requests --- we were bullied into thinking that if we were doing something for out leaders, then we were doing something for God.
Hope R.
PS: I don't know if it's still linked to GS - but check out the article by Rev. Patricia Liberty titled "Why It's Not An Affair". I still think LCM bears full responsibility for his actions. Those that kept their eyes closed and mouths shut bear the responsibility of doing just that. I think you can apply that to every decision that LCM made without consultation. But again - that's another subject....
Might I add that I have a friend who is an innie. They ran in to LCM while he was working at Balley's. This person went to his apartment to talk to him. They said he was willing to talk about what happened. Of course, he only gives his side of the story. They said he feels he did NOTHING wrong. The only thing he is sorry for is the hurt he caused his children. He feels his sexcapades were not wrong because of the amount of women that men like David had. He is twisted in his thoughts. Maybe those thougts were twisted because VPW taught them to him. But LCM is the one who accepted the wrong doctrine, and HE will be responsible for his actions when he comes face-to-face with Jesus.
I think he is as responsible for trusting his advisors. The same innie said LCM has a personal vendetta with RFR. I'm sure that has been going on for decades and is reciprocated by her as well.
There's your classic narcissist. He doesn't think he did anything wrong and sorry that others can't see the situation for what it is and, consequently "got hurt". He also puts himself on par with David and other great men in the Bible. Not to mention the fact that in doing so, contradicts even his own teachings about administrations - just because it was "okay" in the OT (which it wasn't) doesn't mean it's "okay" in the grace administration as they teach it.
No, Hope, we didn't say anything because of the fear and the worry about falling out of "alignment and harmony" with God. They taught very well that we should want to do those things and shouldn't even have to be asked to do most of them. I know after a while it was just expected that Meister and I would be on a crew for whatever event was going on - we weren't asked, but rather told what time to show up and what to do.
The times I did try to beg out of something or got my ire up about how much time they were demanding from us I was scolded and criticized for being selfish or stubborn.
The last wc that came to our area, though, figured out real quick, I think, that I was NOT going to be their babysitter. I didn't offer excuses or any apologies the few times I was asked to babysit. I just said, "No, I'm not 'available' to do that." I just never mentioned to Meister that I was asked to babysit, otherwise, I would have had to babysit. Talk about sleeping with the enemy.... My ex was worse about enforcing the ridiculous leglism and expectations of TWI than some of the leaders were. They really screwed up when they dropped him from the corps program.
One of the things I've noticed on this thread is how many of us didn't speak up about the "slave labor" we performed.
Face it - we were used, in more ways than digging ditches.
As Sky said:
Whatever we were asked to do - it was expected of us. Very few said "no" for fear of the dreaded M&A status that would be imposed on us if we refused.
Remember the verse "Whatsoever ye do, [work] heartily as unto the Lord and not unto men" ? That verse was held over our heads if we ever challenged their work day requests --- we were bullied into thinking that if we were doing something for out leaders, then we were doing something for God.
Hope R.
Hope.....good point.
But just to clarify my post...........I found out about THESE DETAILS of the early 1990s just prior to exiting twi. By mid-1998, martindale could no longer hide his unsatiating lusts and the guy was seducing another corps man's wife at the hq advanced class.
Once, I was asked to help clean a lodge at Shelby Meeman State Park in Memphis for a branch meeting. That is really the only time (except as a wow) that I remembered being asked to perform manual labor.
I was lucky, I guess!!!!
Most of my local leaders had no children, so again, I was lucky!!!!!!!!!!!!
At the age of 17 when I first got involved with twi, I pushed a mower around my twig coordinator's lawn every weekend for a month. In exchange, he paid for me to attend the foundational class, which was $40 at the time. In hindsight, I think I'd rather have the cash in my pocket.
I want all to note that John and Hope paid me well for wallpapering at their home. We also had a card party or some game and drank some beers! I remember the LC's being surprised when I presented them with a bill for wallpapering at their place. I seem to remember that they paid me later,, but weren"t too "blessed " about it!
You guys need any papering done? I'm retiring in a few years and won't be available!!!
I put in hours and hours cleaning houses and setting up for meetings and classes. Perhaps that in itself doesn't sound like much but when you are making the places better than you found them it tended to feel more like free labor to me.
And thank you for not flaming me today, several of you could have but didn't. I respect that.
I never could figure out why two adults who were both home all day, with teen age children, couldn't keep they're own house and yard. Instead they needed 6 volunteers --people with full time jobs and families--nearly every weekend to give up half a Saturday to take care of them.
I think much of what we did in our early days of involvement will be honored by God because we did it out of a genuine desire in our hearts to serve God and his people. Now, as time progressed and we did things just because it was required or some type of fear was involved, I can only say this:
I have no qualms with Craig being in the blame here but I also know that he entered the ministry with it already having leaders that were whispering into ears and luring into beds for selfish gain. He didn't chose them all like the Fox who was already calling the shots when he was still a jock on the field. And she isn't the only one that fits those shoes. So that logic although reasonable doesn't fit perfectly in this example.
Nor was it within his power to get rid of those whisperers either regardless of whether it should have been or not.
He is to blame for much, no doubt about it, but he is not to blame for it all. Nope
heck no, I agree with you. he entered an established system and thrived for quite a while... you do bring up something interesting... anyone think that RR might be seed of the serpent?
I'm not saying whether I believe the seed teachings as twi taught them, that's beside the point, but she fits the AOTS character list quite well, IMO.
I can't muster anything good to say about her. But I wonder if Satan would use his valuable folks for such a small group as twi? I fear I hold too many bad memories of her to be partial.
Now it seems to be child labour!! The splinter groups are starting youth groups that require them from ages from 13-17 to slave away on their property!! They stay for the entire weekend and even have to pay for their own food!!
Then at the end of the weekend they have to detail clean their leaders house and car!! Must be nice, Right? Don't we all wish a team would come to that for us? That is sick to expect kids to do that!!!!!
I worked in Sewing on campus while in rez. I helped make drapes and I altered a LOT of pants. I had to take them in because the guys were losing so much weight so fast.
Then I cleaned windows on campus - every day every window got cleaned twice - once iby hte morning crew and once by the afternoon crew.
After that I'd say that the only thing I did without pay was run classes and oh yea....
Local leadership was always looking for free stuff from where you worked - they expected you to "bless them."
Interesting to find this mentioned. I remember getting a call to help the new BC and his wife mone into their new apartment. So, between classes and jobs, I spent some time helping with the move. While my WOW bro and i were schlepping boxes and furniture, the new LC was ironing his f...n underwear! This was the critical path moment for me and my departure was hastened as a result of that. Egil
My 12-year-old son and I planted flowers in the planters in front of our TC's house in the pouring rain so it would look nice for a class. When my son asked if he could come in for a minute to get out of the rain, he was told in no uncertain terms 'NO!' because he wasn't to be around the TC's precious perfect children since he was such an awful brat. then the TC's got into a loud screaming fight with each other! I took son and home we went. The woman had the nerve to come after me and say, "Oh gee you shouldn't have had to hear that," and demand I come back and plant the rest of the pansies. And I did, but I left son at home.
She would invite me over for coffee, and then give me a bucket of sudsy water and a scrub brush when I got there instead.
Oh and innumerable nights of free babysitting, including one where her house was so cold I went into hypothermia and almost died, much to her great indignation. (I'd been sick and was a newly diagnosed diabetic.) She had very strict and specific house rules, which included not touching the thermostat or getting a blanket out of her closet to cover up with under any circumstances. I later learn why I had been so far out of the realm of consciousness and explained the situation to her, and that I could very easily have died, and all she said was "You were absolutely right not to touch those blankets. You know I don't allow anyone to get anything in my house other than a glass of water from the refrigerator."
Usually I didn't mind setting up and cleaning public rooms for TWI events, somebody had to do it. I did mind doing chores around somebody's house.
One branch coordinator couple would call us up and ask that our teenage sons come over and shovel their walk in the winter before fellowship. At the time we had one car; it took a lot of organization to get everyone fed, cleaned up, and out the door in time for a 7PM fellowship. Making a second trip over to shovel snow just wasn't going to happen!
During the first running of The Way of Abundance and Power for PFAL grads, WayAP was to be run upstairs at the BC's house. The downstairs was to be used for fellowships. I was given the task of setting up the downstairs room. Mr. BC told me that I could set everything up in advance after one fellowship and leave it set up for the next one (we met 3x a week).
One weekday night a get an angry call at about 6PM from the BC. He is furious that the room isn't set up. Knowing that I had set it up two night previous, I was confused, but drove over. When I got there I found that all the chairs and other furniture had been pushed against the wall, and BC yelling about not fullfilling my committment. When I told him that the room had been set up 2 days before, he angrily asked me if I expected him not to use his house for the whole time the class was running; he had moved all the furniture so that he and his wife could exercise (he was also mad that he and his wife had to move the furniture). I then reminded him that he had okayed leaving the room set up. His only response was "oh...well you'd better get it set up because people are coming over"
Usually I didn't mind setting up and cleaning public rooms for TWI events, somebody had to do it. I did mind doing chores around somebody's house.
One branch coordinator couple would call us up and ask that our teenage sons come over and shovel their walk in the winter before fellowship. At the time we had one car; it took a lot of organization to get everyone fed, cleaned up, and out the door in time for a 7PM fellowship. Making a second trip over to shovel snow just wasn't going to happen!
During the first running of The Way of Abundance and Power for PFAL grads, WayAP was to be run upstairs at the BC's house. The downstairs was to be used for fellowships. I was given the task of setting up the downstairs room. Mr. BC told me that I could set everything up in advance after one fellowship and leave it set up for the next one (we met 3x a week).
One weekday night a get an angry call at about 6PM from the BC. He is furious that the room isn't set up. Knowing that I had set it up two night previous, I was confused, but drove over. When I got there I found that all the chairs and other furniture had been pushed against the wall, and BC yelling about not fullfilling my committment. When I told him that the room had been set up 2 days before, he angrily asked me if I expected him not to use his house for the whole time the class was running; he had moved all the furniture so that he and his wife could exercise (he was also mad that he and his wife had to move the furniture). I then reminded him that he had okayed leaving the room set up. His only response was "oh...well you'd better get it set up because people are coming over"
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Hope R.
One of the things I've noticed on this thread is how many of us didn't speak up about the "slave labor" we performed.
Face it - we were used, in more ways than digging ditches.
As Sky said:
Whatever we were asked to do - it was expected of us. Very few said "no" for fear of the dreaded M&A status that would be imposed on us if we refused.
Remember the verse "Whatsoever ye do, [work] heartily as unto the Lord and not unto men" ? That verse was held over our heads if we ever challenged their work day requests --- we were bullied into thinking that if we were doing something for out leaders, then we were doing something for God.
Hope R.
PS: I don't know if it's still linked to GS - but check out the article by Rev. Patricia Liberty titled "Why It's Not An Affair". I still think LCM bears full responsibility for his actions. Those that kept their eyes closed and mouths shut bear the responsibility of doing just that. I think you can apply that to every decision that LCM made without consultation. But again - that's another subject....
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Nottawayfer
Might I add that I have a friend who is an innie. They ran in to LCM while he was working at Balley's. This person went to his apartment to talk to him. They said he was willing to talk about what happened. Of course, he only gives his side of the story. They said he feels he did NOTHING wrong. The only thing he is sorry for is the hurt he caused his children. He feels his sexcapades were not wrong because of the amount of women that men like David had. He is twisted in his thoughts. Maybe those thougts were twisted because VPW taught them to him. But LCM is the one who accepted the wrong doctrine, and HE will be responsible for his actions when he comes face-to-face with Jesus.
I think he is as responsible for trusting his advisors. The same innie said LCM has a personal vendetta with RFR. I'm sure that has been going on for decades and is reciprocated by her as well.
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Belle
There's your classic narcissist. He doesn't think he did anything wrong and sorry that others can't see the situation for what it is and, consequently "got hurt". He also puts himself on par with David and other great men in the Bible. Not to mention the fact that in doing so, contradicts even his own teachings about administrations - just because it was "okay" in the OT (which it wasn't) doesn't mean it's "okay" in the grace administration as they teach it.
No, Hope, we didn't say anything because of the fear and the worry about falling out of "alignment and harmony" with God. They taught very well that we should want to do those things and shouldn't even have to be asked to do most of them. I know after a while it was just expected that Meister and I would be on a crew for whatever event was going on - we weren't asked, but rather told what time to show up and what to do.
The times I did try to beg out of something or got my ire up about how much time they were demanding from us I was scolded and criticized for being selfish or stubborn.
The last wc that came to our area, though, figured out real quick, I think, that I was NOT going to be their babysitter. I didn't offer excuses or any apologies the few times I was asked to babysit. I just said, "No, I'm not 'available' to do that." I just never mentioned to Meister that I was asked to babysit, otherwise, I would have had to babysit. Talk about sleeping with the enemy.... My ex was worse about enforcing the ridiculous leglism and expectations of TWI than some of the leaders were. They really screwed up when they dropped him from the corps program.
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skyrider
Hope.....good point.
But just to clarify my post...........I found out about THESE DETAILS of the early 1990s just prior to exiting twi. By mid-1998, martindale could no longer hide his unsatiating lusts and the guy was seducing another corps man's wife at the hq advanced class.
The pot of evil was boiling over.
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ChattyKathy
btw....I worked for free also
:unsure:
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act2
I was a wow twice. Does that count???!!
Once, I was asked to help clean a lodge at Shelby Meeman State Park in Memphis for a branch meeting. That is really the only time (except as a wow) that I remembered being asked to perform manual labor.
I was lucky, I guess!!!!
Most of my local leaders had no children, so again, I was lucky!!!!!!!!!!!!
heehee.... I love to use the 'lucky' word.
Things are slow at work today!!!!!!!!!!!!
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ChattyKathy
lucky
fortunate
create
chance
christmas
okay......gone for real this time......yeah right
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William
At the age of 17 when I first got involved with twi, I pushed a mower around my twig coordinator's lawn every weekend for a month. In exchange, he paid for me to attend the foundational class, which was $40 at the time. In hindsight, I think I'd rather have the cash in my pocket.
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smitty
I want all to note that John and Hope paid me well for wallpapering at their home. We also had a card party or some game and drank some beers! I remember the LC's being surprised when I presented them with a bill for wallpapering at their place. I seem to remember that they paid me later,, but weren"t too "blessed " about it!
You guys need any papering done? I'm retiring in a few years and won't be available!!!
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ChattyKathy
I should add to the thread.
I put in hours and hours cleaning houses and setting up for meetings and classes. Perhaps that in itself doesn't sound like much but when you are making the places better than you found them it tended to feel more like free labor to me.
And thank you for not flaming me today, several of you could have but didn't. I respect that.
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Bramble
I never could figure out why two adults who were both home all day, with teen age children, couldn't keep they're own house and yard. Instead they needed 6 volunteers --people with full time jobs and families--nearly every weekend to give up half a Saturday to take care of them.
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waysider
I think much of what we did in our early days of involvement will be honored by God because we did it out of a genuine desire in our hearts to serve God and his people. Now, as time progressed and we did things just because it was required or some type of fear was involved, I can only say this:
Just one guys' wacky opinion.
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coolchef
gee bramble
that does make wonder
lazy spirits maybe??
or just lazy people?!
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ChattyKathy
They convinced themselves we were there to serve them rather than they were there to serve us.
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potato
heck no, I agree with you. he entered an established system and thrived for quite a while... you do bring up something interesting... anyone think that RR might be seed of the serpent?
I'm not saying whether I believe the seed teachings as twi taught them, that's beside the point, but she fits the AOTS character list quite well, IMO.
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ChattyKathy
I can't muster anything good to say about her. But I wonder if Satan would use his valuable folks for such a small group as twi? I fear I hold too many bad memories of her to be partial.
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pinklady
Now it seems to be child labour!! The splinter groups are starting youth groups that require them from ages from 13-17 to slave away on their property!! They stay for the entire weekend and even have to pay for their own food!!
Then at the end of the weekend they have to detail clean their leaders house and car!! Must be nice, Right? Don't we all wish a team would come to that for us? That is sick to expect kids to do that!!!!!
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doojable
I worked in Sewing on campus while in rez. I helped make drapes and I altered a LOT of pants. I had to take them in because the guys were losing so much weight so fast.
Then I cleaned windows on campus - every day every window got cleaned twice - once iby hte morning crew and once by the afternoon crew.
After that I'd say that the only thing I did without pay was run classes and oh yea....
Local leadership was always looking for free stuff from where you worked - they expected you to "bless them."
SHEEEEEEEESH!
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coolchef
clean windows twice a day???
lucky if they get done twice a year here
what a perfect example of the way
they wasted our time and money
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egilkent
Interesting to find this mentioned. I remember getting a call to help the new BC and his wife mone into their new apartment. So, between classes and jobs, I spent some time helping with the move. While my WOW bro and i were schlepping boxes and furniture, the new LC was ironing his f...n underwear! This was the critical path moment for me and my departure was hastened as a result of that. Egil
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Watered Garden
My 12-year-old son and I planted flowers in the planters in front of our TC's house in the pouring rain so it would look nice for a class. When my son asked if he could come in for a minute to get out of the rain, he was told in no uncertain terms 'NO!' because he wasn't to be around the TC's precious perfect children since he was such an awful brat. then the TC's got into a loud screaming fight with each other! I took son and home we went. The woman had the nerve to come after me and say, "Oh gee you shouldn't have had to hear that," and demand I come back and plant the rest of the pansies. And I did, but I left son at home.
She would invite me over for coffee, and then give me a bucket of sudsy water and a scrub brush when I got there instead.
Oh and innumerable nights of free babysitting, including one where her house was so cold I went into hypothermia and almost died, much to her great indignation. (I'd been sick and was a newly diagnosed diabetic.) She had very strict and specific house rules, which included not touching the thermostat or getting a blanket out of her closet to cover up with under any circumstances. I later learn why I had been so far out of the realm of consciousness and explained the situation to her, and that I could very easily have died, and all she said was "You were absolutely right not to touch those blankets. You know I don't allow anyone to get anything in my house other than a glass of water from the refrigerator."
WG
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Oakspear
Usually I didn't mind setting up and cleaning public rooms for TWI events, somebody had to do it. I did mind doing chores around somebody's house.
One branch coordinator couple would call us up and ask that our teenage sons come over and shovel their walk in the winter before fellowship. At the time we had one car; it took a lot of organization to get everyone fed, cleaned up, and out the door in time for a 7PM fellowship. Making a second trip over to shovel snow just wasn't going to happen!
During the first running of The Way of Abundance and Power for PFAL grads, WayAP was to be run upstairs at the BC's house. The downstairs was to be used for fellowships. I was given the task of setting up the downstairs room. Mr. BC told me that I could set everything up in advance after one fellowship and leave it set up for the next one (we met 3x a week).
One weekday night a get an angry call at about 6PM from the BC. He is furious that the room isn't set up. Knowing that I had set it up two night previous, I was confused, but drove over. When I got there I found that all the chairs and other furniture had been pushed against the wall, and BC yelling about not fullfilling my committment. When I told him that the room had been set up 2 days before, he angrily asked me if I expected him not to use his house for the whole time the class was running; he had moved all the furniture so that he and his wife could exercise (he was also mad that he and his wife had to move the furniture). I then reminded him that he had okayed leaving the room set up. His only response was "oh...well you'd better get it set up because people are coming over"
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Ham
I'd like to see one of these sycophants chime in and say how it was for our own good or something..
"you, sitting at the keyboard, you know who you are.."
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ChasUFarley
That wasn't Gr&g B0lchalk was it?
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