Gees--Years and Years of work---Everything from all the things you mentioned to-----well one branch coordinator up here got his entire house built for damn close to free---Get invited to "fellowship" and end up felling trees, or sheetrocking or god knows what kind of heavy manual labor for an entire weekend.
That went on for about 2 or 3 years.
I refinished a dining room table for a BC in Florida, (he didnt even stay there while i worked all weekend-but went somewhere on a weekend getaway) then he bitched me out when he got back for missing a tiny spot underneath the bottom of the table...Gave me an entire speech about it, (he didnt mention that he missed doing any of the work himself.. and he got $100's of work for free-mustve skipped his mind in his yelling fit..) Yes Massuh.
How many times did I move people?
ay yi yi
Gee I was so blessed.
Im with you I pay somebody-even if they are friends these days who help me out in a pinch-They are paid and paid honestly and generously
Yeah, definitely a sore point. Especially considering what I saw on staff.
My wife and I have our own business. Guess who stays until 2 AM balancing the books, rebuilding the servers and cleaning the toilet... I can't recall seeing any cabinet-level TWI employees doing those sorts of tasks. With a couple of impressive exceptions, most of TWI leadership was either incapable or unwilling to do the menial or technical work that they supervised.
"Hmm - if I were my former branch leader's wife, I could have a branch 'work day' -- I'd get about a dozen people over here -- give each of them a toothbrush and tell them to do the work. It'd be finished in no time! All I'd have to do is buy a few pizzas when they were done and I wouldn't have to lift a finger!"
Hope, after a while, they even quit buying the pizza..
I remember they had limb work days- polish and bring to perfection the limb home.
I remember what they did to corps that were on probabation here that I know.. but I wouldn't post details without their permission. I'll just say it involved about eighteen hours of HARD labor. And labor that would NOT have been necessary, had the "leader" used a little common sense.
I think the most amount of free hours I dumped into that organization involved running classes, cleaning and setting up for hours on end, not leaving as small as a speck of dust for a debil to hide under..
I counted it once, but can't remember- but I think I sat through PFAL perhaps sixty times or more, and usually I was on crew, cleaning, setting up, doing audio/video, etc. etc.
I baby-sat some BIG BRATS when I was in twi. I also baby-sat some very lovable kids. ALL baby-sitting was absolutely free of charge. When I was on Staff, I let my feelings get hurt because I baby-sat one couples kids frequently and never got invited over to their house for anything other than baby-sitting. Thanksgiving and Christmas are very lonely times on Staff unless you have a clique you frequent.
I did TONS of free work. My BC and his wife asked me to stay at their house and take care of their dog while they went to Corps Week and the ROA. When I got there the day before they left, I was informed that I would need to pay for rent, food, and electricity. Then I got a huge list of things that needed to be finished before they got home. I was a faithful followe of The Way, not the Lord Jesus Christ.
I remember being shocked when Paul Brooks first came to me to babysit for his four kids. They were upset because the person that they were using all the time - gasp - had the nerve to ask for payment. This was during the time where there were wc hook-ups every Wed. night and, between craiggers and Moynihan, those wc didn't get home till the wee hours of the morning sometimes.
Another babysitter was 'replaced' because she had the audacity to ask that the kids be brought to her house (she didn't ask for money, either).
But idiot me not only went to their house, but did the laundry, cleaned the bathrooms and all kinds of other chores while I was there.
And don't get me started on moving folks all the time. If they'd let people buy houses, that wouldn't have been half as bad as it was.
Oh, yeah..... Hey, I'm having a House Cleaning Warming Party next week-end. Would you be blessed to come?
Hi Hope,,, And a Happy and Prosperous New Year to you and yours. I had a good laugh remembering some of my slave labor days. However on a side note I have found some stuff I bought off a tv commercial to be great for cleaning ceramic towel. Its called "Clean Shower". I don't know if its avbilable in stores. Its made by Automation,Inc located in Jacksonville. Try http://www.cleanshower .com for ordering. Don't your favorite window washer know how to use the toothbrush? LOL. Nice to see ya....would love to visit wif ya'll next time yer up around tha bluegrass.
Hello Belle....I knew you was a woman after mine own heart! You do laundry, clean and other chores (one of which I am sure is cooking). Your sure welcome at my house and I will even turn on NASCAR after the dishes are done. Your friend from the pear juice regions of the bluegrass!
Let's see...did babysit for a couple of different revs. One was at hq and EVERYONE said their kids were great--weren't! The other rev/wif's kids WERE the best kids I've ever babysat for. They were soooo good. And one of 'em was funny as the dickins just like his dad.
Did you say werk? Did a LOT in residence and helped do a little housecleaning a few times for limb/branch ldrs., but looking back, I was pretty good at not getting asked and didn't hardly EVER volunteer--in residence either. Figured everyone needed a little free time to keep their sanity. LOL! I totally believed the verse about taking heed unto thyself and if you didn't you wouldn't be any good to yourself or anyone else.
I never bought into the scam the corps coordinators used constantly about volunteering every chance you got. I did volunteer, but not a lot.
Also, never believed action = righteousness or believing.
I remember at Corps week long ago, a buddy of mine got reproved for not having a good attitude while working in the breakfast tent. He replied " Hell, I paid good money to work here!" I remember laughing at that TRUE statement, we paid with blood, sweat and tears, not to mention our most valuable asset, time!.
I worked on limb cars,bc's cars, twig leaders cars, wallpapered rooms,, raked leaves,painted houses,repaired plumbing, fixed roofs, etc, but all of that labor added to the things that I can do well for myself and others WHEN I WANT TO!! Sorry for yelling.
I remember at Corps week long ago, a buddy of mine got reproved for not having a good attitude while working in the breakfast tent. He replied " Hell, I paid good money to work here!"
Too funny, Hal... and so true.
I wish I could remember when we started calling the ROA the "WORK" of Ages!
Hope R.
PS We paid you when you wallpapered for us, didn't we? (I sure hope so!) Love to N. and the girls....
The most abuse I saw in this was when people were moving. Not leaders, just regular believers. You felt obligated to help people because it was "the right thing to do" but you get over there to help them and they don't even have stuff out of their cupboards yet and ultimately the whole day's shot.
In '83 we all came to the area leader's house to rake leaves but the leader himself and his 2 under 10 kids helped right along with everybody else. Had beer afterwards. Beer covereth a multitude of ...well.
Once a year several of us STL believers drive 100 miles southwest to cut firewood for a believer family. It's pretty cool; they feed us and put us up in a motel that night. We work our a$$e$ off all day (cut down trees, use splitters to convert them to much firewood) but the fellowship is good. That's the way something like that should be done: EVERYBODY is blessed.
FWIW one of the reasons Craig ended the ROA's was because of the work load to set it up, keep it going and then disassemble it. He said during set up that last year after one of us had a heat stroke that he would close it down before it even began before he would allow us to suffer as we were in the heat. And to repeat FWIW.
FWIW one of the reasons Craig ended the ROA's was because of the work load to set it up, keep it going and then disassemble it. He said during set up that last year after one of us had a heat stroke that he would close it down before it even began before he would allow us to suffer as we were in the heat. And to repeat FWIW.
Kathy......this roa-shutdown topic has always been one of great interest to me, because it coincides with the 1995 full-time staff era of all field corps.
In April/May of 1995, the trustees announced that martindale had God's revelation to put all the way corps on full-time status payroll. Therefore, by August of 1995......all corps were to come to Corps Week prepared to meet with twi's PR/Finance guy, Br@d Th0rpe, to discuss their financial needs and sign the necessary paperwork for twi employment. And, there was no middle ground......either corps went full-time status or they were dropped.
IIRC, martindale made some roa public statements about the rampant sex in "tent city" and stated how animal spirits were infesting twi....and didn't he cancel the way disciple program, as well?
Anyways..........a few weeks later, at our first corps meeting of the 1995/1996 twi-year, martindale announced that the trustees decided to cancel the annual rock of ages festivals. And further, there would be only a select few invited to attend/work at November's AC Special in Dallas. Why....this sudden change of policies????? IMO, the corps were NOW FULL-TIME EMPLOYEES and all activites and EXPENSES were twi's responsibility since every corps was hired on "a need basis."
If there had been a 1996 roa.......ALL TRAVELING & HOUSING EXPENSES would, technically, need to be reimbursed to the field corps for every corps week/roa. To me.........when the trustees followed martindale's "revelation to put all corps full-time" they had NO IDEA of what dominoes would fall as a result in heeding to martindale's ego and agenda.
I will be honest here at the expense of being flamed but not caring if I am either.
The further I get away from that ministry in my heart, mind and soul the less able I seem to tolerate that twi was ONLY evil and NOTHING more. There isn't a single one us posting or not posting on this board that received nothing good from that ministry and we dang well know it. Heck, we wouldn't even be here with this sweet camaraderie had we not been a part of that group, that accounts for something.
Craig was and to a much lesser degree presently an ego maniac. I'll not dispute that. But he also had advisors around him whose only goal in life was to bring him down. And had they not been in his ear and his bed for years on end he might not have been the buttwipe be became. He loves God and His word and I'll never accept anything less into my heart because I know the man.
It was Uncle Howie who seemed to fail miserably in understanding simple things like the employer has to meet the employee social security amount. I mean FTW was that all about. My son understood that when he received his first W2 at the age of 15. Also that once they put their corps on the field into a need base that they would also no longer receive their ABS. Just blows my mind such simple things were over-looked. But then the household of the way also were stupid enough to buy the line that when you rent you don't pay property taxes so it is better to rent than buy. Who the heck did Howie think was paying those taxes! The owners have included the property taxes in the rent so the renter is paying the property taxes. None of these things take a rocket scientist to understand yet Craig missed that his advisors on this stuff was clueless. Craig isn't all knowing on this type stuff, that is why he relied on those around him.
I am not excusing Craig on any of this but he is not solely to blame for all that we accuse him of around here and I know that personally so my words have some weight whether it hurts our feeling here or not.
I love you folks and always will but part of why I don't post in this forum very often is we bastardize the good received at the risk of making that group be from the pit of hell. And that doesn't necessarily help the person out there reading us like we might think it does. And when one of us dares to speak anything good of that group we are attacked for it. That just ain't right!
I mean nothing towards you personally Skyrider so please don't take it as such. I have read you and you offer sound facts and great reasoning quite often. I just needed to get this off my chest and you happened to be the one I decided to do it with.
Many times I was asked to baby-sit, and when I got there, was asked to clean the house, not just tidy up after the child and myself, but scrub floors, clean ovens, iron shirts, you name it.
Lots of times the twig or twig area was asked to come to Limb or Indiana Campus and clean inside and out. Once I was reproved for wearing clothes that were too nice. I was wearing jeans and a flannel shirt. It makes me wonder what I should have been wearing, and what kind of work they wanted me to do.
The thing about all the work too, was they would ask and you were expected to drop everything and serve. "Would you be blessed to watch little Sarah? I need you here in 5 minutes." It didn't matter what you had planned. It only mattered that you obeyed.
None of these things take a rocket scientist to understand yet Craig missed that his advisors on this stuff was clueless. Craig isn't all knowing on this type stuff, that is why he relied on those around him.
I am not excusing Craig on any of this but he is not solely to blame for all that we accuse him of around here and I know that personally so my words have some weight whether it hurts our feeling here or not.
the success of a leader rests on his ability to put capable people in key positions. the fact that lcm not only failed to do that but also got behind their idiotic policies to the detriment of twi followers demonstrates his lack of ability.
the other thing about being a leader... it is your fault. you take responsibility. if the organization/project/battle/war is lost, guess who's fault it is? when they write history, it's the guy running it who gets that distinction (except for obvious things like some dude embezzled millions, or a sentry fell asleep and let the enemy in)... although we all know $h1t rolls downhill when it comes to who suffers for their bad leadership, so perhaps responsibility is moot since it's never just the leader who pays for his bad decisions. twi is/was badly run. lcm was the decision-maker. that spells responsibility and fault, to me.
somehow I manage to avoid working for free for the most part. I did participate in some work days, then of course hosted and fed in-residence corps so they could come out on the field and work for free (it was a learning experience, to teach them stewardship).
in fairness, the FC couple who I hate because of their support of my abusive ex-husband, who were horribly abusive to everyone around them, actually paid me to babysit for them and didn't expect me to do anything else while I was there.... but they could afford a domestic to come in and clean and didn't have to justify the expense to HQ.
in that area, everyone was expected to help everyone with special projects and moving, it got spread around pretty evenly. the worst events were a couple of weddings where most of the fellowship members were work crew and not guests at the reception... just free labor. that sucked, because supposedly we were friends of the couples getting married and we were completely excluded from the festivities.
I've got my wedding planned to cost almost nothing and be as much fun as possible. I can't see giving someone a job that keeps them so busy they don't get to enjoy the day, when they got the job in the first place as some kind of stupid honor because they're such a good friend.
the success of a leader rests on his ability to put capable people in key positions. the fact that lcm not only failed to do that but also got behind their idiotic policies to the detriment of twi followers demonstrates his lack of ability.
the other thing about being a leader... it is your fault. you take responsibility. if the organization/project/battle/war is lost, guess who's fault it is? when they write history, it's the guy running it who gets that distinction (except for obvious things like some dude embezzled millions, or a sentry fell asleep and let the enemy in)... although we all know $h1t rolls downhill when it comes to who suffers for their bad leadership, so perhaps responsibility is moot since it's never just the leader who pays for his bad decisions. twi is/was badly run. lcm was the decision-maker. that spells responsibility and fault, to me.
I have no qualms with Craig being in the blame here but I also know that he entered the ministry with it already having leaders that were whispering into ears and luring into beds for selfish gain. He didn't chose them all like the Fox who was already calling the shots when he was still a jock on the field. And she isn't the only one that fits those shoes. So that logic although reasonable doesn't fit perfectly in this example.
Nor was it within his power to get rid of those whisperers either regardless of whether it should have been or not.
He is to blame for much, no doubt about it, but he is not to blame for it all. Nope
I am not excusing Craig on any of this but he is not solely to blame for all that we accuse him of around here and I know that personally so my words have some weight whether it hurts our feeling here or not.
I love you folks and always will but part of why I don't post in this forum very often is we bastardize the good received at the risk of making that group be from the pit of hell. And that doesn't necessarily help the person out there reading us like we might think it does. And when one of us dares to speak anything good of that group we are attacked for it. That just ain't right!
I mean nothing towards you personally Skyrider so please don't take it as such. I have read you and you offer sound facts and great reasoning quite often. I just needed to get this off my chest and you happened to be the one I decided to do it with.
Kathy
My apologies to HopeR
Kathy........who said craig was solely to blame for all this? Obviously, there's something that triggered your response.........but you might want to read my comments on the trustees' responsibility. Here is what I said. To me....when the trustees followed martindale's revelation to put all corps full-time, they had no idea of what dominoes would fall as a result in heeding to martindale's ego and agenda. But again, as always.......YMMV.
I remember hearing martindale expound about his "revelation from God" several times.....that all corps were to be full-time IF the ministry was to continue moving forward. And, on corps meetings...martindale shouted down any and all opposition! Weren't you tapped into these corps meetings? How many times did martindale rip a new one to any limb coordinator who wasn't following his policies? Are we talking responsibility issues here...........or, what?
And, if you've "read me" on a consistent basis........I've posted "the good, the bad and the ugly" of twi. Yes, there were some good things. I've stated the GOOD as such...........but for those of us who stayed after "the fog years" the BAD and the UGLY were rampant night-stalkers of the good-hearted and simple of heart. The "good" has been discussed on numerous occasions. But Greasespot..........and specifically this About the Way forum is about "exposing the underbelly of twi, the other side."
Sure there was some good. No doubt about it.....and I've been known to walk down memory lane on occasion. Had there not been some "good"......I wouldn't have stayed for 24 years.
But, I in no way want to sugar-coat an organization WHOSE UPPER LEADERS (trustees and evil-advisors) WHERE PLAGAIRISM, PREDATORY WAYS AND PONTIFICATING were leading us away and seducing my corps sisters, trashing good reputations, shredding the good works of volunteers, etc.
And furthermore, Kathy........I KNOW WAAAAAAAY MORE THAN I'VE POSTED, SO FAR.
I stand corrected in some of your words, no question of it and I guess it best I stay away from this forum since I have obviously missed some things you just brought up. Perhaps my personal need to remove the bitterness I have begun to harbor has spurred me into posting today, and I can deal with my own life on my own in that regard and leave you folks alone.
I also have no doubt you know way more than you will post here, just like I know way more than I will ever post here as well, and some of it is what makes me take the stand I have.
And Hope, sorry I derailed your thread, I'll not be back.
It is not my intention to have you "leave" this forum.
I defended martindale for years and years and years........and then, I found out things that were very disturbing to me. In the early 90s, Martindale had taken his license of lust and was "jumping the bones" of several that I knew. The guy had been been making advances on my wife.....and trying to lure her in.
On-stage......the image that some remember.
Off-stage......the predatory behavior that is hard to forget.
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pond
I look back at the crap I took back then.
I had three children under the ages of five.
I was a single mom.
I worked full time .
so when the BC wife got pregnate, i went over to her apartment and cleaned her bathrooms because they chemicals used made her ill.
she didnt work outside the home, and had two teenagers at home who did nothing.
i tell ya I have changed. i wont do it today for anyone i also believe in paying somone to do it.
then one night they came over to my apartment and got critical becauase i had laudry out in the babys room not put away.
i used to have to go to the laudramat at midnight with all three kids !
i have no doubt how i got sucked into a cult .
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mstar1
Gees--Years and Years of work---Everything from all the things you mentioned to-----well one branch coordinator up here got his entire house built for damn close to free---Get invited to "fellowship" and end up felling trees, or sheetrocking or god knows what kind of heavy manual labor for an entire weekend.
That went on for about 2 or 3 years.
I refinished a dining room table for a BC in Florida, (he didnt even stay there while i worked all weekend-but went somewhere on a weekend getaway) then he bitched me out when he got back for missing a tiny spot underneath the bottom of the table...Gave me an entire speech about it, (he didnt mention that he missed doing any of the work himself.. and he got $100's of work for free-mustve skipped his mind in his yelling fit..) Yes Massuh.
How many times did I move people?
ay yi yi
Gee I was so blessed.
Im with you I pay somebody-even if they are friends these days who help me out in a pinch-They are paid and paid honestly and generously
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Jim
Yeah, definitely a sore point. Especially considering what I saw on staff.
My wife and I have our own business. Guess who stays until 2 AM balancing the books, rebuilding the servers and cleaning the toilet... I can't recall seeing any cabinet-level TWI employees doing those sorts of tasks. With a couple of impressive exceptions, most of TWI leadership was either incapable or unwilling to do the menial or technical work that they supervised.
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Ham
Hope, after a while, they even quit buying the pizza..
I remember they had limb work days- polish and bring to perfection the limb home.
I remember what they did to corps that were on probabation here that I know.. but I wouldn't post details without their permission. I'll just say it involved about eighteen hours of HARD labor. And labor that would NOT have been necessary, had the "leader" used a little common sense.
I think the most amount of free hours I dumped into that organization involved running classes, cleaning and setting up for hours on end, not leaving as small as a speck of dust for a debil to hide under..
I counted it once, but can't remember- but I think I sat through PFAL perhaps sixty times or more, and usually I was on crew, cleaning, setting up, doing audio/video, etc. etc.
We didn't get pizza either..
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Nottawayfer
I baby-sat some BIG BRATS when I was in twi. I also baby-sat some very lovable kids. ALL baby-sitting was absolutely free of charge. When I was on Staff, I let my feelings get hurt because I baby-sat one couples kids frequently and never got invited over to their house for anything other than baby-sitting. Thanksgiving and Christmas are very lonely times on Staff unless you have a clique you frequent.
I did TONS of free work. My BC and his wife asked me to stay at their house and take care of their dog while they went to Corps Week and the ROA. When I got there the day before they left, I was informed that I would need to pay for rent, food, and electricity. Then I got a huge list of things that needed to be finished before they got home. I was a faithful followe of The Way, not the Lord Jesus Christ.
NEVER again....
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Belle
How they exploited us, let me count the ways....
I remember being shocked when Paul Brooks first came to me to babysit for his four kids. They were upset because the person that they were using all the time - gasp - had the nerve to ask for payment. This was during the time where there were wc hook-ups every Wed. night and, between craiggers and Moynihan, those wc didn't get home till the wee hours of the morning sometimes.
Another babysitter was 'replaced' because she had the audacity to ask that the kids be brought to her house (she didn't ask for money, either).
But idiot me not only went to their house, but did the laundry, cleaned the bathrooms and all kinds of other chores while I was there.
And don't get me started on moving folks all the time. If they'd let people buy houses, that wouldn't have been half as bad as it was.
Oh, yeah..... Hey, I'm having a House Cleaning Warming Party next week-end. Would you be blessed to come?
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Littlehawk
Hi Hope,,, And a Happy and Prosperous New Year to you and yours. I had a good laugh remembering some of my slave labor days. However on a side note I have found some stuff I bought off a tv commercial to be great for cleaning ceramic towel. Its called "Clean Shower". I don't know if its avbilable in stores. Its made by Automation,Inc located in Jacksonville. Try http://www.cleanshower .com for ordering. Don't your favorite window washer know how to use the toothbrush? LOL. Nice to see ya....would love to visit wif ya'll next time yer up around tha bluegrass.
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Littlehawk
Hello Belle....I knew you was a woman after mine own heart! You do laundry, clean and other chores (one of which I am sure is cooking). Your sure welcome at my house and I will even turn on NASCAR after the dishes are done. Your friend from the pear juice regions of the bluegrass!
PS> You won't have to babysit!
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waterbuffalo
Let's see...did babysit for a couple of different revs. One was at hq and EVERYONE said their kids were great--weren't! The other rev/wif's kids WERE the best kids I've ever babysat for. They were soooo good. And one of 'em was funny as the dickins just like his dad.
Did you say werk? Did a LOT in residence and helped do a little housecleaning a few times for limb/branch ldrs., but looking back, I was pretty good at not getting asked and didn't hardly EVER volunteer--in residence either. Figured everyone needed a little free time to keep their sanity. LOL! I totally believed the verse about taking heed unto thyself and if you didn't you wouldn't be any good to yourself or anyone else.
I never bought into the scam the corps coordinators used constantly about volunteering every chance you got. I did volunteer, but not a lot.
Also, never believed action = righteousness or believing.
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coolchef
wel, my thoughts about this
the older i got the smarter my dad got
he is gone now
but
one of his great words of advice he had for me
was
you have to lead by example
i never saw much of that in twi
except for
jim doop
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smitty
I remember at Corps week long ago, a buddy of mine got reproved for not having a good attitude while working in the breakfast tent. He replied " Hell, I paid good money to work here!" I remember laughing at that TRUE statement, we paid with blood, sweat and tears, not to mention our most valuable asset, time!.
I worked on limb cars,bc's cars, twig leaders cars, wallpapered rooms,, raked leaves,painted houses,repaired plumbing, fixed roofs, etc, but all of that labor added to the things that I can do well for myself and others WHEN I WANT TO!! Sorry for yelling.
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Hope R.
Too funny, Hal... and so true.
I wish I could remember when we started calling the ROA the "WORK" of Ages!
Hope R.
PS We paid you when you wallpapered for us, didn't we? (I sure hope so!) Love to N. and the girls....
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johniam
The most abuse I saw in this was when people were moving. Not leaders, just regular believers. You felt obligated to help people because it was "the right thing to do" but you get over there to help them and they don't even have stuff out of their cupboards yet and ultimately the whole day's shot.
In '83 we all came to the area leader's house to rake leaves but the leader himself and his 2 under 10 kids helped right along with everybody else. Had beer afterwards. Beer covereth a multitude of ...well.
Once a year several of us STL believers drive 100 miles southwest to cut firewood for a believer family. It's pretty cool; they feed us and put us up in a motel that night. We work our a$$e$ off all day (cut down trees, use splitters to convert them to much firewood) but the fellowship is good. That's the way something like that should be done: EVERYBODY is blessed.
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ChattyKathy
FWIW one of the reasons Craig ended the ROA's was because of the work load to set it up, keep it going and then disassemble it. He said during set up that last year after one of us had a heat stroke that he would close it down before it even began before he would allow us to suffer as we were in the heat. And to repeat FWIW.
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skyrider
Kathy......this roa-shutdown topic has always been one of great interest to me, because it coincides with the 1995 full-time staff era of all field corps.
In April/May of 1995, the trustees announced that martindale had God's revelation to put all the way corps on full-time status payroll. Therefore, by August of 1995......all corps were to come to Corps Week prepared to meet with twi's PR/Finance guy, Br@d Th0rpe, to discuss their financial needs and sign the necessary paperwork for twi employment. And, there was no middle ground......either corps went full-time status or they were dropped.
IIRC, martindale made some roa public statements about the rampant sex in "tent city" and stated how animal spirits were infesting twi....and didn't he cancel the way disciple program, as well?
Anyways..........a few weeks later, at our first corps meeting of the 1995/1996 twi-year, martindale announced that the trustees decided to cancel the annual rock of ages festivals. And further, there would be only a select few invited to attend/work at November's AC Special in Dallas. Why....this sudden change of policies????? IMO, the corps were NOW FULL-TIME EMPLOYEES and all activites and EXPENSES were twi's responsibility since every corps was hired on "a need basis."
If there had been a 1996 roa.......ALL TRAVELING & HOUSING EXPENSES would, technically, need to be reimbursed to the field corps for every corps week/roa. To me.........when the trustees followed martindale's "revelation to put all corps full-time" they had NO IDEA of what dominoes would fall as a result in heeding to martindale's ego and agenda.
But again, as always........YMMV
:)
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ChattyKathy
Skyrider,
I will be honest here at the expense of being flamed but not caring if I am either.
The further I get away from that ministry in my heart, mind and soul the less able I seem to tolerate that twi was ONLY evil and NOTHING more. There isn't a single one us posting or not posting on this board that received nothing good from that ministry and we dang well know it. Heck, we wouldn't even be here with this sweet camaraderie had we not been a part of that group, that accounts for something.
Craig was and to a much lesser degree presently an ego maniac. I'll not dispute that. But he also had advisors around him whose only goal in life was to bring him down. And had they not been in his ear and his bed for years on end he might not have been the buttwipe be became. He loves God and His word and I'll never accept anything less into my heart because I know the man.
It was Uncle Howie who seemed to fail miserably in understanding simple things like the employer has to meet the employee social security amount. I mean FTW was that all about. My son understood that when he received his first W2 at the age of 15. Also that once they put their corps on the field into a need base that they would also no longer receive their ABS. Just blows my mind such simple things were over-looked. But then the household of the way also were stupid enough to buy the line that when you rent you don't pay property taxes so it is better to rent than buy. Who the heck did Howie think was paying those taxes! The owners have included the property taxes in the rent so the renter is paying the property taxes. None of these things take a rocket scientist to understand yet Craig missed that his advisors on this stuff was clueless. Craig isn't all knowing on this type stuff, that is why he relied on those around him.
I am not excusing Craig on any of this but he is not solely to blame for all that we accuse him of around here and I know that personally so my words have some weight whether it hurts our feeling here or not.
I love you folks and always will but part of why I don't post in this forum very often is we bastardize the good received at the risk of making that group be from the pit of hell. And that doesn't necessarily help the person out there reading us like we might think it does. And when one of us dares to speak anything good of that group we are attacked for it. That just ain't right!
I mean nothing towards you personally Skyrider so please don't take it as such. I have read you and you offer sound facts and great reasoning quite often. I just needed to get this off my chest and you happened to be the one I decided to do it with.
Kathy
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VeganXTC
Many times I was asked to baby-sit, and when I got there, was asked to clean the house, not just tidy up after the child and myself, but scrub floors, clean ovens, iron shirts, you name it.
Lots of times the twig or twig area was asked to come to Limb or Indiana Campus and clean inside and out. Once I was reproved for wearing clothes that were too nice. I was wearing jeans and a flannel shirt. It makes me wonder what I should have been wearing, and what kind of work they wanted me to do.
The thing about all the work too, was they would ask and you were expected to drop everything and serve. "Would you be blessed to watch little Sarah? I need you here in 5 minutes." It didn't matter what you had planned. It only mattered that you obeyed.
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potato
the success of a leader rests on his ability to put capable people in key positions. the fact that lcm not only failed to do that but also got behind their idiotic policies to the detriment of twi followers demonstrates his lack of ability.
the other thing about being a leader... it is your fault. you take responsibility. if the organization/project/battle/war is lost, guess who's fault it is? when they write history, it's the guy running it who gets that distinction (except for obvious things like some dude embezzled millions, or a sentry fell asleep and let the enemy in)... although we all know $h1t rolls downhill when it comes to who suffers for their bad leadership, so perhaps responsibility is moot since it's never just the leader who pays for his bad decisions. twi is/was badly run. lcm was the decision-maker. that spells responsibility and fault, to me.
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potato
somehow I manage to avoid working for free for the most part. I did participate in some work days, then of course hosted and fed in-residence corps so they could come out on the field and work for free (it was a learning experience, to teach them stewardship).
in fairness, the FC couple who I hate because of their support of my abusive ex-husband, who were horribly abusive to everyone around them, actually paid me to babysit for them and didn't expect me to do anything else while I was there.... but they could afford a domestic to come in and clean and didn't have to justify the expense to HQ.
in that area, everyone was expected to help everyone with special projects and moving, it got spread around pretty evenly. the worst events were a couple of weddings where most of the fellowship members were work crew and not guests at the reception... just free labor. that sucked, because supposedly we were friends of the couples getting married and we were completely excluded from the festivities.
I've got my wedding planned to cost almost nothing and be as much fun as possible. I can't see giving someone a job that keeps them so busy they don't get to enjoy the day, when they got the job in the first place as some kind of stupid honor because they're such a good friend.
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ChattyKathy
I have no qualms with Craig being in the blame here but I also know that he entered the ministry with it already having leaders that were whispering into ears and luring into beds for selfish gain. He didn't chose them all like the Fox who was already calling the shots when he was still a jock on the field. And she isn't the only one that fits those shoes. So that logic although reasonable doesn't fit perfectly in this example.
Nor was it within his power to get rid of those whisperers either regardless of whether it should have been or not.
He is to blame for much, no doubt about it, but he is not to blame for it all. Nope
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skyrider
Kathy........who said craig was solely to blame for all this? Obviously, there's something that triggered your response.........but you might want to read my comments on the trustees' responsibility. Here is what I said. To me....when the trustees followed martindale's revelation to put all corps full-time, they had no idea of what dominoes would fall as a result in heeding to martindale's ego and agenda. But again, as always.......YMMV.
I remember hearing martindale expound about his "revelation from God" several times.....that all corps were to be full-time IF the ministry was to continue moving forward. And, on corps meetings...martindale shouted down any and all opposition! Weren't you tapped into these corps meetings? How many times did martindale rip a new one to any limb coordinator who wasn't following his policies? Are we talking responsibility issues here...........or, what?
And, if you've "read me" on a consistent basis........I've posted "the good, the bad and the ugly" of twi. Yes, there were some good things. I've stated the GOOD as such...........but for those of us who stayed after "the fog years" the BAD and the UGLY were rampant night-stalkers of the good-hearted and simple of heart. The "good" has been discussed on numerous occasions. But Greasespot..........and specifically this About the Way forum is about "exposing the underbelly of twi, the other side."
Sure there was some good. No doubt about it.....and I've been known to walk down memory lane on occasion. Had there not been some "good"......I wouldn't have stayed for 24 years.
But, I in no way want to sugar-coat an organization WHOSE UPPER LEADERS (trustees and evil-advisors) WHERE PLAGAIRISM, PREDATORY WAYS AND PONTIFICATING were leading us away and seducing my corps sisters, trashing good reputations, shredding the good works of volunteers, etc.
And furthermore, Kathy........I KNOW WAAAAAAAY MORE THAN I'VE POSTED, SO FAR.
Nuff said.
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ChattyKathy
I stand corrected in some of your words, no question of it and I guess it best I stay away from this forum since I have obviously missed some things you just brought up. Perhaps my personal need to remove the bitterness I have begun to harbor has spurred me into posting today, and I can deal with my own life on my own in that regard and leave you folks alone.
I also have no doubt you know way more than you will post here, just like I know way more than I will ever post here as well, and some of it is what makes me take the stand I have.
And Hope, sorry I derailed your thread, I'll not be back.
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skyrider
(((Kathy)))
It is not my intention to have you "leave" this forum.
I defended martindale for years and years and years........and then, I found out things that were very disturbing to me. In the early 90s, Martindale had taken his license of lust and was "jumping the bones" of several that I knew. The guy had been been making advances on my wife.....and trying to lure her in.
On-stage......the image that some remember.
Off-stage......the predatory behavior that is hard to forget.
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coolchef
soory chatty but imo it was craigs fault
he was the leader and ultimitly
all decisions were his
as a leader you are wise to listen to council of your staff
but the final discision is the leaders
right or wrong
and as we know he made some real wrong ones
craig,walking with God?
i believe that
but alas the wrong one
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