Our daughter worked for the Humane Society Wildlife Division last summer and there were plenty of bird brought in that would have died if they weren't fed. Michigan reports that mute swans and wild turkeys die because of starvation every winter when their food supply is at its lowest. In harsh winters, Canadian Geese starve when ice and snow cover the land and they cannot get at their food.
4I am as one mocked of his neighbour, who calleth upon God, and he answereth him: the just upright man is laughed to scorn. 5He that is ready to slip with his feet is as a lamp despised in the thought of him that is at ease.
6The tabernacles of robbers prosper, and they that provoke God are secure; into whose hand God bringeth abundantly. 7But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: 8Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. 9Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? 10In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. 11Doth not the ear try words? and the mouth taste his meat?
from Job
Certainly more then we are used to hearing.
And the words do mean more then what's on the surface imo.
Well, I get that the birds rely on God for their provision rather than their own ingenuity, but if I look at nature, there are times when the provision fails. I'm just wondering if having the right perspective on where you ultimately get your provision is not necessarily a guarantee that you will always have everything you need. Just as tithing would not gurantee prosperity. It seems that prosperity is not a sign of being right with God (or vice versa).
Birds also live in specific areas/ habitats so are dependant on those lands. As long as the habitat is there they thrive.
Some birds, like crows, can thrive in many places/habitats. That is why the Crow Indians and others have seen crows and ravens as powerful--they survive and thrive in even harsh conditions.
I think you're right DrtDzn on the no-guarantees-thing. I like Cman's reference from Job. And that made me think of something in Psalms. I think this passage like so many others that speak of the complex web of life – say something of the power of our Creator in weaving together all the life and eco systems,
Psalm 104: 10-28
10 He makes springs pour water into the ravines;
it flows between the mountains.
11 They give water to all the beasts of the field;
the wild donkeys quench their thirst.
12 The birds of the air nest by the waters;
they sing among the branches.
13 He waters the mountains from his upper chambers;
and the leviathan, which you formed to frolic there.
27 These all look to you
to give them their food at the proper time.
28 When you give it to them,
they gather it up;
when you open your hand,
they are satisfied with good things.
Note especially verse 21 - it says the lions roar for their prey and seek their food from God. From my Christian perspective – I see not only a complex system of life-sustaining interrelating details but also that God has built into His creations some level of ability to fend for themselves. Which makes me think of another passage,
Deuteronomy 8: 17, 18
17 You may say to yourself, "My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me."
18 But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today.
There's verses in Proverbs that contrast the poverty of lazy people with the wealth of those who are industrious. I think passages like these are a far cry from suggesting any get-rich-quick thing like the law-of-believing hog wash. Looking again at your reference at the beginning of this thread – I see it very similar to the Psalm 104:21 reference to lions seeking their food from God. The birds DO HAVE TO go out and look for their food. There is some work involved on their part. Using their natural abilities [flying, seeing, etc.] to locate it. Perhaps that is some of the point in the passage: we use our natural abilities – like working for a living – and not worrying about the basic provisions of life, remembering that it's God who has given us the ability to produce wealth.
Matthew 6:25-34
25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
I guess I have just seen too many wild animal documentaries. The picture painted in Psalms is idylic, but the other side of the cruelty in nature is not mentioned. For God to feed the lion, another animal must be torn apart. Some birds must starve to feed the scavengers.
Not everyone who is industrious gains wealth. Plenty of lazy people have more than they could spend.
I wouldn’t say what is portrayed in Psalm 104 is idyllic…Maybe – that’s the way things work for now – there IS a harsh reality implied by the reference to lions hunting their prey…And I agree with you saying - not everyone who is industrious gains wealth. It goes back to what you said about no guarantees. I could be mistaken but I tend to think many of the statements in Proverbs are generalizations – in other words – not a bunch of trade secrets for cracking the prosperity code – but more like observations – noting a general rule of thumb. Maybe it’s saying hard workers are usually rewarded. And I would think with as much as Proverbs harps on wisdom that it’s safe to assume we should work smarter as well!
When I think of industrious – I recall a variety of people I’ve worked with over the years. Some who have held two – and even three jobs at a time. Some who have put themselves through school at night – to earn a degree – that and their drive/skills opens doors to a better job…Businesses that offer a good product or provide reliable service tend to prosper. They are rewarded by repeat sales, strong customer base, etc. I can’t say much about lazy people – because I tend to avoid them…And “wealth” is a relative term…
I think, "the race doesn't always go to the swiftest" or something like that. I also think there are more mysteries to nature and how and why things work than we'll ever know, but it does keep things balanced in nature when man doesn't go sticking his hand, building or chemicals into it.
I think we see through a glass darkly and won't know all the answers in our lifetime, but it's healthy to ask them, ponder and talk about them.
I know I sleep better at night knowing that I put in a good, honest day's work; take time to enjoy the fruits of my labor and share a little with others.
Wealth certainly is relative, T-Bone. It reminds me of Jeff Foxworthy talking about his pick-up truck. His wife was shocked that he wanted a truck - "Jay-eff, you can drive any thing you want and you go buy a pick-up truck?" His answer was, "I want a pick-up truck."
Life is good - I consider myself "wealthy" but no investment banker would agree with that. But I don't look at my tangible "assets" as proof of my "wealth".
7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
KJV: Dt 28:26
26And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.
KJV: 1 Sa 17:44
44And the Philistine said to David, Come to me, and I will give thy flesh unto the fowls of the air, and to the beasts of the field.
KJV: 1 Sa 17:46
46This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.
KJV: 1 Ki 14:11
11Him that dieth of Jeroboam in the city shall the dogs eat; and him that dieth in the field shall the fowls of the air eat: for the LORD hath spoken it.
KJV: 1 Ki 16:4
4Him that dieth of Baasha in the city shall the dogs eat; and him that dieth of his in the fields shall the fowls of the air eat.
KJV: 1 Ki 21:24
24Him that dieth of Ahab in the city the dogs shall eat; and him that dieth in the field shall the fowls of the air eat.
KJV: Job 12:7
7But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
KJV: Job 28:21
21Seeing it is hid from the eyes of all living, and kept close from the fowls of the air.
KJV: Mt 6:26
26Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
KJV: Mk 4:4
4And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
KJV: Mk 4:32
32But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.
KJV: Lk 8:5
5A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
KJV: Lk 13:19
19It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.
KJV: Ac 10:12
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
KJV: Ac 11:6
6Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Not me!! I'm a sucker for the underdog (or the one with the best looking uniform, but we won't go there). Then again, that could be why I don't have any money.
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TheInvisibleDan
Perhaps Jesus (or the writer/editor) wasn't very informed about birds.
I find the possessive "your heavenly father" to be quite curious as well.
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likeaneagle
jerry- I rarely see birds dying of starvation.
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VeganXTC
Our daughter worked for the Humane Society Wildlife Division last summer and there were plenty of bird brought in that would have died if they weren't fed. Michigan reports that mute swans and wild turkeys die because of starvation every winter when their food supply is at its lowest. In harsh winters, Canadian Geese starve when ice and snow cover the land and they cannot get at their food.
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cman
Yes could be the 'the fowls of the air' that don't sow reap or gather,
is a bird of a different feather.
Thus putting more weight on the 'your heavenly Father' feeds them.
Making a another distinction even in the next line-
'Are ye not much better than they'
Is that saying there is a difference or there isn't.
Still it says quit worrying about yourself and
seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness.
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cman
4I am as one mocked of his neighbour, who calleth upon God, and he answereth him: the just upright man is laughed to scorn. 5He that is ready to slip with his feet is as a lamp despised in the thought of him that is at ease.
6The tabernacles of robbers prosper, and they that provoke God are secure; into whose hand God bringeth abundantly. 7But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: 8Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. 9Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? 10In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. 11Doth not the ear try words? and the mouth taste his meat?
from Job
Certainly more then we are used to hearing.
And the words do mean more then what's on the surface imo.
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VeganXTC
oops
Edited by VeganXTCLink to comment
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DrtyDzn
Well, I get that the birds rely on God for their provision rather than their own ingenuity, but if I look at nature, there are times when the provision fails. I'm just wondering if having the right perspective on where you ultimately get your provision is not necessarily a guarantee that you will always have everything you need. Just as tithing would not gurantee prosperity. It seems that prosperity is not a sign of being right with God (or vice versa).
Jerry
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Abigail
Well said, Jerry.
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Bramble
Birds also live in specific areas/ habitats so are dependant on those lands. As long as the habitat is there they thrive.
Some birds, like crows, can thrive in many places/habitats. That is why the Crow Indians and others have seen crows and ravens as powerful--they survive and thrive in even harsh conditions.
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T-Bone
I think you're right DrtDzn on the no-guarantees-thing. I like Cman's reference from Job. And that made me think of something in Psalms. I think this passage like so many others that speak of the complex web of life – say something of the power of our Creator in weaving together all the life and eco systems,
Psalm 104: 10-28
10 He makes springs pour water into the ravines;
it flows between the mountains.
11 They give water to all the beasts of the field;
the wild donkeys quench their thirst.
12 The birds of the air nest by the waters;
they sing among the branches.
13 He waters the mountains from his upper chambers;
the earth is satisfied by the fruit of his work.
14 He makes grass grow for the cattle,
and plants for man to cultivate—
bringing forth food from the earth:
15 wine that gladdens the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine,
and bread that sustains his heart.
16 The trees of the LORD are well watered,
the cedars of Lebanon that he planted.
17 There the birds make their nests;
the stork has its home in the pine trees.
18 The high mountains belong to the wild goats;
the crags are a refuge for the coneys. [b]
19 The moon marks off the seasons,
and the sun knows when to go down.
20 You bring darkness, it becomes night,
and all the beasts of the forest prowl.
21 The lions roar for their prey
and seek their food from God.
22 The sun rises, and they steal away;
they return and lie down in their dens.
23 Then man goes out to his work,
to his labor until evening.
24 How many are your works, O LORD!
In wisdom you made them all;
the earth is full of your creatures.
25 There is the sea, vast and spacious,
teeming with creatures beyond number—
living things both large and small.
26 There the ships go to and fro,
and the leviathan, which you formed to frolic there.
27 These all look to you
to give them their food at the proper time.
28 When you give it to them,
they gather it up;
when you open your hand,
they are satisfied with good things.
Note especially verse 21 - it says the lions roar for their prey and seek their food from God. From my Christian perspective – I see not only a complex system of life-sustaining interrelating details but also that God has built into His creations some level of ability to fend for themselves. Which makes me think of another passage,
Deuteronomy 8: 17, 18
17 You may say to yourself, "My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me."
18 But remember the LORD your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today.
There's verses in Proverbs that contrast the poverty of lazy people with the wealth of those who are industrious. I think passages like these are a far cry from suggesting any get-rich-quick thing like the law-of-believing hog wash. Looking again at your reference at the beginning of this thread – I see it very similar to the Psalm 104:21 reference to lions seeking their food from God. The birds DO HAVE TO go out and look for their food. There is some work involved on their part. Using their natural abilities [flying, seeing, etc.] to locate it. Perhaps that is some of the point in the passage: we use our natural abilities – like working for a living – and not worrying about the basic provisions of life, remembering that it's God who has given us the ability to produce wealth.
Matthew 6:25-34
25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
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Belle
Those verses have been used to develop lazy folks and to convince them to ignore common horse sense regarding their future.
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DrtyDzn
I guess I have just seen too many wild animal documentaries. The picture painted in Psalms is idylic, but the other side of the cruelty in nature is not mentioned. For God to feed the lion, another animal must be torn apart. Some birds must starve to feed the scavengers.
Not everyone who is industrious gains wealth. Plenty of lazy people have more than they could spend.
Jerry
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T-Bone
I wouldn’t say what is portrayed in Psalm 104 is idyllic…Maybe – that’s the way things work for now – there IS a harsh reality implied by the reference to lions hunting their prey…And I agree with you saying - not everyone who is industrious gains wealth. It goes back to what you said about no guarantees. I could be mistaken but I tend to think many of the statements in Proverbs are generalizations – in other words – not a bunch of trade secrets for cracking the prosperity code – but more like observations – noting a general rule of thumb. Maybe it’s saying hard workers are usually rewarded. And I would think with as much as Proverbs harps on wisdom that it’s safe to assume we should work smarter as well!
When I think of industrious – I recall a variety of people I’ve worked with over the years. Some who have held two – and even three jobs at a time. Some who have put themselves through school at night – to earn a degree – that and their drive/skills opens doors to a better job…Businesses that offer a good product or provide reliable service tend to prosper. They are rewarded by repeat sales, strong customer base, etc. I can’t say much about lazy people – because I tend to avoid them…And “wealth” is a relative term…
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Belle
I think, "the race doesn't always go to the swiftest" or something like that. I also think there are more mysteries to nature and how and why things work than we'll ever know, but it does keep things balanced in nature when man doesn't go sticking his hand, building or chemicals into it.
I think we see through a glass darkly and won't know all the answers in our lifetime, but it's healthy to ask them, ponder and talk about them.
I know I sleep better at night knowing that I put in a good, honest day's work; take time to enjoy the fruits of my labor and share a little with others.
Wealth certainly is relative, T-Bone. It reminds me of Jeff Foxworthy talking about his pick-up truck. His wife was shocked that he wanted a truck - "Jay-eff, you can drive any thing you want and you go buy a pick-up truck?" His answer was, "I want a pick-up truck."
Life is good - I consider myself "wealthy" but no investment banker would agree with that.
But I don't look at my tangible "assets" as proof of my "wealth".
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cman
I don't think any of those verses are talking about animals.
But what happens in the minds of men and woman.
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DrtyDzn
Jerry
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cman
I should have said-animals are not the point.
or something like that.
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DrtyDzn
I get that the verse is not about animals, but if you use an illustration, shouldn't you at least get the facts straight.
On the other hand, maybe we are all bird-brained.
Jerry
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cman
Ha, yeah bird-brained....
Could be more true then facts...
Anyway, here's the rest of the places it's used
KJV: Ge 6:7
7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
KJV: Dt 28:26
26And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.
KJV: 1 Sa 17:44
44And the Philistine said to David, Come to me, and I will give thy flesh unto the fowls of the air, and to the beasts of the field.
KJV: 1 Sa 17:46
46This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.
KJV: 1 Ki 14:11
11Him that dieth of Jeroboam in the city shall the dogs eat; and him that dieth in the field shall the fowls of the air eat: for the LORD hath spoken it.
KJV: 1 Ki 16:4
4Him that dieth of Baasha in the city shall the dogs eat; and him that dieth of his in the fields shall the fowls of the air eat.
KJV: 1 Ki 21:24
24Him that dieth of Ahab in the city the dogs shall eat; and him that dieth in the field shall the fowls of the air eat.
KJV: Job 12:7
7But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
KJV: Job 28:21
21Seeing it is hid from the eyes of all living, and kept close from the fowls of the air.
KJV: Mt 6:26
26Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
KJV: Mk 4:4
4And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
KJV: Mk 4:32
32But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.
KJV: Lk 8:5
5A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
KJV: Lk 13:19
19It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.
KJV: Ac 10:12
12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
KJV: Ac 11:6
6Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
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polar bear
Cman you are right.
The point God is making is that He has provided freely for the animals and how much more will He take care of us.
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cman
True enough polar bear.
And also I think there is more to it then birds.
As well as the lillies that are mentioned too.
I mean look at how it's presented to Peter.
Four footed beasts, fowls of the air, wild beasts, creeping things.
Are they not representing people?
I just don't think there is one meaning and,
'Thus Saith the Lord'
and nothing left to let our eyes be opened
a bit more to greater truths that we have been promised
to see by the Holy Spirit revealing it to us.
Not vain or empty imaginations but deeper truth.
Hidden right there in a few simple thoughts.
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VeganXTC
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Sushi
""The race may not be to the swift, nor the victory to the strong, but that's how you bet."
Damon Runyon
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Belle
Not me!! I'm a sucker for the underdog (or the one with the best looking uniform, but we won't go there).
Then again, that could be why I don't have any money. 
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