wow, that is really some great inward reflection..amazing that you can see so much in your own soul. not familiar with the phrse "twit brain" is that a twi thing or something you made up? in any event it sounds like you have come a very long way and i applaud your efforts and honesty! my relatives whoa re still very much a part of twi have this insiduous rudeness, anger and maice about them..i have never seen such hatred..really. i am not sure why..not all of them..and not all of the time..but a bunch of them have what i call the "pitbull factor." they treat people so carelessly...let me just tell you about their road-rage....i have never seen such hatred for others..and intolerance..certain supporters of twi on this board also have that hateful, intolerant, and just plain rude attitude. let us not forget 1 Cor 13..Love is patient, Love, is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it keeps no record of wrong, it is not rude, self-seeking, or vengeful, it does not delight in evil...etc... that is Godliness and truth..that picture is anything but the hatred i have seen in my own family..i like my neighbors better who have never even met God, but have decency. and have not been programmed to hate and elevate themselves above other people.
... let us not forget 1 Cor 13..Love is patient, Love, is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it keeps no record of wrong, it is not rude, self-seeking, or vengeful, it does not delight in evil...etc... that is Godliness and truth...
Very well said, but,
if every GS poster acted this way do you realize what it would do to the thread hits?
Sometimes when this verse comes up in conversations like this I see red! I belive that some people mis-use this verse and sometims they do it for their own agenda.
Mother of 2, Oldiesman - I do NOT think that's what you are doing - - really. Your only "adgenda" so to speak is appropriate behavior of brother and sisters in Christ. But I just have to say what's on my mind to keep this all in perspective for everybody.
Walking in love, as we were told to do, is what we should do. BUT it is not always making "nice-nice" and giving people "warm fuzzies" to make them feel loved. Sometimes we have to do things that appear to be "unloving"
Love is patient: that means - if I realize that you are missing it, or as they used to say, "doing the Word" if that makes more sense to some of you, it is my job, my responsibility to try to correct you. What I say to you, may not always be pleasant, in fact if could be really hard for you to hear and accept. It is my responsibility to be patient and help you overcome that shortcoming. I don't just bark commands at you...I help you...I don't nag you, I encourage you....and I keep doing it until...........and I do it without complaining and telling everybody how good I am to do this ( I'd consider that boasting, actually).
Now I didn't give an endpoint to the "until". If you are really walking in love, you will know if the person isn't really getting it, or doesn't want to, or whatever else. That's when you stop. That's patience.
Many people think that patience is just putting up with so and so. That's spiritual laziness.
You don't go walking around looking for faults either. If you're always looking for faults, that's all you're going to see.
Besides being spiritually lazy - it also negates one of the 2 commandments that Christ gave..."love thy neighbor as thyself".Sometimes you may have to yell at him...sometimes you may need to be on his a$$ every second for a time, sometimes you have to ignore is complaining and yes, even whining. But all the time, you protect his heart, you don't go bragging to everybody about it, you don't go telling everybody you know what he did that's wrong. If you have to take it to a "higher authority" okay, but you don't revel in your abilities to spot wrong doing when you do.
I really believe Cool Waters is absolutely right when she boiled down to the nitty gritty. The poison in twiwas motive. That is it in a nutshell. It wasn't what they did...it wasn't necesarily how they did it....it was WHY they did it.
Part of what she said:[my emphasis is in bold here]
[color="#9932cc"]One of my earliest memories of the underbelly of twi was all the excitement over learning etiquette so to avoid being reproved by the MOG. At first I couldn't believe adults hadn't learned etiquette yet. I was shocked, actually. Then I was deeply disturbed that [b]they were learning etiquette not to be able to be comfortable with people, but to avoid being reamed in public[/b]. It really bothered me that the upper echelon of twi had no manners themselves.
[/color]
I'm sorry for such a long post. But don't get me started on that verse of Scripture because I have seen in misused so many times...and when it is misused it leads to some of the most ungodly behaviors!
krys..not sure what you are taking offense too here..maybe you have misunderstood something..i am in full support of cool waters and everyhing she said and you are not?? are you offended by my saying "twi-supporters"? 1cor 13..tells us exactly what true love's attitude is...pretty tough to misinterpret that...love is patient(longsufferring) love is kind..my relatives in the way are not kind or patient..they have eery eyes and fake smiles and they will turn on you very quickly!!
oh and as far as having a problem with a brother we are told to go to him in love and confront..so we are not told to be doormats at all..but there can be a fine line between foolishness and assertiveness! i for one am all for standing up for whats right!
I would just want to counter that my own feeling is that I cor 13 as written in its soft squishy form is good enough for 99.8% of all relationships - and the kind of firmness you speak of I find to be necessary no more than 0.2% of the time - and that usually only applies to self-appointed prophets, telemarketers, substance abusers, thieves, and complete jerks. Spouses, children and good friends usually do not need nor deserve the dark side of this philosophy.
CoolWaters-What a heart you have. Great post I love to hear these stories. Yes the problem with twi is "motive" you got it straight. Many times what I saw was- power related, "cause I'm the leader, you do this" or money related-"we need to witness more to bring in more". The promogation of the corporation.
Thank God here at GSC we don't need the money, the power struggle doesn't exist, there are no leaders. Ahhhhhhh what a wonderful world. Sit back enjoy the conversation.
There is still a little of twi thinking here but what dc you expect, it won't all go away at once.
One thing twi misses big time is how to genuinely love people. Especially in reproof. I don't want to go into a big discourse here because it has been covered in other threads, but genuine love even in reproof should be tender and kind. Jesus Christ was always tender with his loved ones. He only got firm with the hard hearted ones.
It should be that we just want to help bring people back up to the Word who have been caught in a fault. They have to choose to do it, we are just the messenger to help those who may have forgotten how good and loving and forgiving God is. What a great thing it is. Reproof should be done with respect and great love for the person. Wow we can even do that here. Let's have a great yeat together.
No - No - No - Motherof2 - I said in the beginning of the post that this was not in reference to you or the way you speak about how we understand what it is saying. I said that.
What I am opposed to is the way MANY OTHER PEOPLE used the verse - those who use it to tell you that you are not being loving if you correct them, or ask questioins.....those who use it to control you...to keep you under their thumb. How many times were WE screamed at and badgered especially to do things we really felt we shouldn't have to do.....such as show them a time schedule. [i's none of their business what I do in my life...and I don't have to make a schedule for a whole week that I religiously stick to. It's none of any body's business when my spouse and I have "personal time" and how often. Sometimes things change and we decide to have "personal time with spouse" and it's not on the schedule]. I'm just using that one regarding the schedule to show how idiotic the whole schedule thing was.
How I spend my money is nobody's business either. They wanted to see pay stubs and check books and monthly budgets. That's off limits - that's rude. THEY said they were guiding us in the best use of our resources, but what they REALLY wanted was to squeeze moreABS out of you AND make it stick...AND tell you God wouldn't spit in your direction unless you gave that exact amount of dollars - - and in the blue forms they could see it and if you didn't comply they would hold it against you one way or another. [some classes or events were only open to those who were faithfully giving at or above the standard]
BUT when we first rebelled at those ideas we were told that THEY were just lovingly making sure we were on the right track - or however they put it. THEY would use that verse among others to make us believe that THEY only had our best interest at heart and THEY wanted us to be the "best".
Richard....I think your track record is a little better than mine. Maybe I came in around 11% - 15%. You have more finesse than I do...and I lived in a "tough" area. People in some spots Joisey have a certain toughness about them in order to survive. Also - automatically I would be considered Inferior because I am a woman AND I was never Corps.
But if we're going to continue this conversation, we should do it on another thread. I don't want to derail this one. I've read CoolWater's post and I'm still thinking about it and other things are coming to my mind...and perhaps others are too. Let's keep that discussion going here because I think it's a good thing to do explore. (but that's just my opinion.)
I do not feel like you derailed this thread at all. There are a lot of viewpoints to air out here and a lot to share, and then clarify since the net is so messy for clear communication.
CoolWaters, since you put it in those terms, that twi was a poison - that explains a lot of things. Also, it gives me [YMMV] a plausible reason as to why I stood around so long. It explains why I didn't see the evil and what the organization was doing to me, and, it mitigates the "guilt" I felt at being deceived.
That term about being deceived was thrown at us during the homo purge but also later when we were forced under other bondage such as budgets etc. What I had be oh-so-subtly taught was not to be deceived. So later when I got out, it was very hard to admit that I was. After all, "mature believers" shouldn't be caught like that should we. Especially since I had experience with a few devil spirits [not hoards of them over my 20 year stint] - and one of them was up close and personal! [for those of you who maintain that they don't exist - you're wrong, but the organization's take in this area is/was greatly overemphasized]
But the very last remnant of condemnation for me [YMMV] was CoolWaters's calling "it" a poison. Poison is in the real 3-D world and I understand poison. I understand that you can be fed this stuff so slowly that you don't realize you're being affected. It can go on for quite some time like this. Then you realize you don't feel so well, but you can't pin it on anything specific...like a cold, or muscle sprain, or a bad sinus headache...it's just a case of the "blahs" but nothing you can put your finger on specifically - - - until you are really too sick to function. By that time, you're in serious trouble, and if you don't have somebody to help you realize how sick you are, and take you for treatment, that's how you'll live your life....or, if they up the dose enough you'll die.
Most poisoning in the 3-D world can be alleviated or reversed. Maybe there will be physical damage, maybe there won't. But with the organization's poison everybody around you is also poisoned so nobody can really understand what is going on. So you never get the right treatment to restore you to "health".
CoolWaters, thank you. I owe you one, so to speak! Unless you had really thought this out and clearly expressed it on this thread, I would always have had a lingering doubt about why didn't I see it, how come I was there so long. Putting it in those terms set me free and I'm grateful.
I have read many of your posts over many years, even as far back as TranceNet (though not as "Dog Lover" all the time.) Of all the posts, this one is the most well-put, most informative, and most helpful one ... which is not to "diss" the others :-) ... it is just to say that you have capsulized the harmful thinking that overzealous, non-Biblical TWIts (including me, sadly, sometimes) applied to themselves and others ... and I think it is true that it happened to us one step at a time, one bit of poison at a time ... thereby all the more deceiving and all the more effective, sadly.
I didn't read all postings here, but I wanted to add my opinion on something.
I read a lot about how bad twi was. It definitely did turn bad.
Again I'll say "They taught me enough to know when it was time to leave". What I mean by that is that it was twi that taught me God's Word. It was twi that taught me how to get out of the negative thinking that plagued my life before I became a part of it. It was twi that got me to enjoy work. It was twi that taught me to keep myself in shape. It was twi that showed me that I should do things for God's glory and not my own (this is not to say that I succeed in these areas all the time). It was twi that taught me how to read the word. Etc., etc., etc....
But it was also twi that showed me that it was OK to go after someone elses wife (which I never did), that it was OK to make yourself an exception (if you were the leader), and as I've read here, to lay guilt on people, and also mistreat people.
I must say, though, that we can hear reproof in at least 2 ways:
1) The way it may have been intended (possible in love)
2) With guilt
I usually heard with guilt, but the people that were my leaders (in the mid '70's) made sure I knew that Christ died for that too (whatever "that" was).
I guess what I'm trying to say is that before twi turned bad (I left mentally in the mid '80's), I still believe that vpw did not intentionally try to deceive in the early years. My first wife "undershepherded" me and was with twi in the early '70's. She did nothing to make me feel bad. Many others worked w/me too, and again, did nothing but try to help me with God and his word. I loved going to twig. I loved going to meetings and taking classes to learn more. I loved the Corps and realized that I VOLUNTEERED to join the Way Corps and I’m still proud that it is a program that I graduated from. I knew what I was getting myself into and still decided to go.
BUT when the love left and people started being mistreated, I left.
I don’t think that we can blame twi for all that happened (negatively) to us. We were still in control of our minds, and contrary to what I’ve heard some say, we WERE able to leave any time we wanted. No one had a gun to our heads.
What we thought and think today is still up to us.
By the way, I hate writing as tool to communicate my thoughts because I always feel that I’m not doing it correctly, or may sound like a hard arss. Please forgive me if I do.
Welcome ROW! We don't have all those fancy coffees here, but this is damn fine java and I can get you half-n-half if you want and somebody will be around soon with some tasty baked goods, we may be too late for fresh rolls and bagels, but we've a ton of really fine baked goods here and we're known for our mighty fine pies!{Belle? are you working today? What do you have?}
I don’t think that we can blame twi for all that happened (negatively) to us. We were still in control of our minds, and contrary to what I’ve heard some say, we WERE able to leave any time we wanted. No one had a gun to our heads.
What we thought and think today is still up to us.
I'm not going to take you to task here because you're a newbie here and you're not familiar with everything that's gone on here. There have been a lot of waters under this bridge but you're going to have to read a lot to understand. One of the reasons you have your set of experiences, and thus, your opinion is timing. You left before you had a big enough dose of the poison, or, your neighborhood was much more friendly.
You mentioned that when you were reproved your leadership reminded you of Christ and what his death and resurrection accomplished. Most of us here who were in a little later will tell you that we heard little or nothing of Jesus Christ. He was for all intents and purposes absent - an after thought - usually only preached about on Resurrection Sunday (easter) and the week leading up to it. Otherwise - nada.
I must say, though, that we can hear reproof in at least 2 ways:
1) The way it may have been intended ([i]possible[/i] in love)
2) With guilt
You had that choice because your leadership was apparently walking in love - I got in in '78 and for several years it was like that for me too but the change was so subtle, that I didn't see it until it was too late - - that is the point of CoolWater's post.
I hope you stick around here ROW. Many of us would love to know how you earlier "dudes and dudettes" remember things. Also, you seem to have yourself together so your expertise would be valuable here. You could add quite a lot to various conversations here around these tables.
I was never told that the reason for Christian ettiquette was to not PO the MOGs; I was taught that if you're going WOW and were going to witness to perhaps a large cross section of people, then you need to have enough refinement so as to not offend someone you may witness to.
In other words, the word we held forth was beautiful no matter what, but some people would never see it if we didn't present ourselves at least somewhat cultured. That was the idea.
I was a drug using hippie before TWI; I NEEDED some instruction in that area. No offense CW, but I'm glad you weren't in my WOW family; we'd have killed each other.
They're getting ready for the lunch crowd, but here's some danishes baked earlier this morning. They're on the house for new folks. We're glad to have you here.
We, obviously, have different experiences depending on the time we were in, who we were involved with and who our leadership was. There was a gun held to some folks, but, as Krys says, those discussions can be found already going on here.
These two threads have so much good information and are so good that we keep them at the doors for new folks to gander while waiting for service.
I remember etiqutte at the table...put to such extreme it was a real pain and annoyance to me while I was trying to eat. I decided to grab a plate at times when at TWI grounds and disappear. Of course, I couldn't be seen running with a plate of food to a room that was not inhabited. Or an office. Had to eat fast before you were seen and "reproved."
When I first arrived at TWI it was pleasant to eat with everyone else and just say prayers and eat. Then came the "host", "hostess", whatever, and lunchtime became one of the most miserable experiences in my life.
Christian ettiquette training in TWI & the corps was review for me. In my family we have formal meals for every holiday w/ fine china, placesettings, multiple glasses, flatware, etc.
I agree w/ the TWIT-brain poison stuff and I too, was somewhat socially retarded by my time in TWI. That astounded me & I think helped save me from being still involved in TWI today.
Not wanting to turn your story into my story, but I will say that I feel you on what you wrote. I also remember you from posting back in the TranceChat days and will say that I've noticed that you have, in fact, made the changes you've spoken of.
Congrats babe!
I think that re-self discovery is a BIG part of the antidote to waybrain.
NOBODY comes to twi as a waybrained person. We all have individual selves that we suspend while we accept that crap.
...What I want to talk about is how twit brain poisoned me socially. The reason I want to talk about this is because I think that as the poison leaches out, I tend to forget what it did to me...and so I also tend to forget what the antidote has been...which tends to make me forget how to treat those just getting out...
Great post, CoolWaters! You always have some interesting stuff…After reading this thread and thinking about some of the things I heard with offshoot groups [like the ones on CES lately] – and thinking about the poison you mentioned – I'm even more convinced that post-TWI resolution is a lot more challenging than just identifying erroneous doctrine. It's also figuring out where the toxic ideas have polluted how we function personally and socially. Tonto and I were talking about this the other night – anyone who has left – especially leadership – has NO BUSINESS starting their own ministry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And if they truly have some kind of calling to serve other Christians maybe they ought to cool their jets awhile – perhaps subject themselves to the tutelage of some local church. And here's a suggestion on how to pick one – ask the former TWI leader what religious group he criticized the most – and yup – that's the one he's to join. Sorry, to rant on your thread, CoolWaters – but it really struck a nerve with me!
Wow! This thread has really turned out pretty much way more fantastic than what I thought! LOL
TYVM {{{{everybody}}}}!!!!
Just for clarification...
TWI did not teach that etiquette was for the mogs or anything...and I didn't say they did. What I said was that the people I knew were learning etiquette to please the mogs etc.. They weren't doing it for the social graces, but to keep themselves from getting reamed when they were eating with/serving leadersh*+.
My point was that leadersh*+ was so demanding and 'reproving' that it clouded anything graceful and colored it all bondage.
There's a bible verse about those who do turn the grace of our Lord into bondage...isn't there?
Krys...wow! I'm glad something clicked for you like that! I had no idea or intention...was just rambling mostly... :) That's the beauty of GSC, imo. :)
I remember Dorothy Owens (The Etiquette Lady of The Way) saying that the reason for etiquette was simply to avoid ugliness. She also said that as Ambassadors for Christ we needed to be prepared to sit at the Governors' tables and feel comfortable. The main goal I remember of the etiquette training was that WE were comfortable in all situations.
She told a story of how a young man once grabbed a slice of watermelon and ate it in just a few bites and I believe that was lcm she was referring to.
She also taught us to eat bananas and bacon with a fork and a knife.
But, she also said that the host or hostess of the table set the tone. If they ate fried chicken with their fingers it was ok for everyone else to too.
So we watched the hostess and followed their lead.
I had no etiquette training whatsoever at home so I was especially thankful for what she taught. I never ate bananas or bacon with a fork except at headquarters or the indiana campus.
Although I do try to live in the real world most of the time...hehehe, wink, wink...I am still amazed when I hear that people had no etiquette training when growing up. Not because I judge, but because it was such a big deal in my life not only at home, but at school, church and all social functions. What I didn't get at home, I got in Brownies/Girl Scouts, Caravans (my church's equivalent to Girl Scouts), 4 years of Home Ec., and from friends who were shamed, just shamed, if someone's etiquette lacked (yep...snotty teen girls).
Yes, the point of etiquette is to feel comfortable and to make others feel comfortable. It's not to be better than, or to prove anything. Too often in twi, that's what happened, though.
I do know one point of etiquette in which twi failed miserably: graciousness towards others, and especially those perceived to be 'different'.
ANY etiquette teacher would be appalled at the way twi trashed the poor, the sick, the afflicted, the different. I never took Dorothy's etiquette classes, but I have to wonder if she ever touched on this form of etiquette?
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motherof2
wow, that is really some great inward reflection..amazing that you can see so much in your own soul. not familiar with the phrse "twit brain" is that a twi thing or something you made up? in any event it sounds like you have come a very long way and i applaud your efforts and honesty! my relatives whoa re still very much a part of twi have this insiduous rudeness, anger and maice about them..i have never seen such hatred..really. i am not sure why..not all of them..and not all of the time..but a bunch of them have what i call the "pitbull factor." they treat people so carelessly...let me just tell you about their road-rage....i have never seen such hatred for others..and intolerance..certain supporters of twi on this board also have that hateful, intolerant, and just plain rude attitude. let us not forget 1 Cor 13..Love is patient, Love, is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it keeps no record of wrong, it is not rude, self-seeking, or vengeful, it does not delight in evil...etc... that is Godliness and truth..that picture is anything but the hatred i have seen in my own family..i like my neighbors better who have never even met God, but have decency. and have not been programmed to hate and elevate themselves above other people.
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oldiesman
Very well said, but,
if every GS poster acted this way do you realize what it would do to the thread hits?
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coolchef
cool,
all i can say is wow!
what a story!
may you always find peace.
coolchef
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krys
Sometimes when this verse comes up in conversations like this I see red! I belive that some people mis-use this verse and sometims they do it for their own agenda.
Mother of 2, Oldiesman - I do NOT think that's what you are doing - - really. Your only "adgenda" so to speak is appropriate behavior of brother and sisters in Christ. But I just have to say what's on my mind to keep this all in perspective for everybody.
Walking in love, as we were told to do, is what we should do. BUT it is not always making "nice-nice" and giving people "warm fuzzies" to make them feel loved. Sometimes we have to do things that appear to be "unloving"
Love is patient: that means - if I realize that you are missing it, or as they used to say, "doing the Word" if that makes more sense to some of you, it is my job, my responsibility to try to correct you. What I say to you, may not always be pleasant, in fact if could be really hard for you to hear and accept. It is my responsibility to be patient and help you overcome that shortcoming. I don't just bark commands at you...I help you...I don't nag you, I encourage you....and I keep doing it until...........and I do it without complaining and telling everybody how good I am to do this ( I'd consider that boasting, actually).
Now I didn't give an endpoint to the "until". If you are really walking in love, you will know if the person isn't really getting it, or doesn't want to, or whatever else. That's when you stop. That's patience.
Many people think that patience is just putting up with so and so. That's spiritual laziness.
You don't go walking around looking for faults either. If you're always looking for faults, that's all you're going to see.
Besides being spiritually lazy - it also negates one of the 2 commandments that Christ gave..."love thy neighbor as thyself".Sometimes you may have to yell at him...sometimes you may need to be on his a$$ every second for a time, sometimes you have to ignore is complaining and yes, even whining. But all the time, you protect his heart, you don't go bragging to everybody about it, you don't go telling everybody you know what he did that's wrong. If you have to take it to a "higher authority" okay, but you don't revel in your abilities to spot wrong doing when you do.
I really believe Cool Waters is absolutely right when she boiled down to the nitty gritty. The poison in twi was motive. That is it in a nutshell. It wasn't what they did...it wasn't necesarily how they did it....it was WHY they did it.
Part of what she said:[my emphasis is in bold here]
I'm sorry for such a long post. But don't get me started on that verse of Scripture because I have seen in misused so many times...and when it is misused it leads to some of the most ungodly behaviors!
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motherof2
krys..not sure what you are taking offense too here..maybe you have misunderstood something..i am in full support of cool waters and everyhing she said and you are not?? are you offended by my saying "twi-supporters"? 1cor 13..tells us exactly what true love's attitude is...pretty tough to misinterpret that...love is patient(longsufferring) love is kind..my relatives in the way are not kind or patient..they have eery eyes and fake smiles and they will turn on you very quickly!!
oh and as far as having a problem with a brother we are told to go to him in love and confront..so we are not told to be doormats at all..but there can be a fine line between foolishness and assertiveness! i for one am all for standing up for whats right!
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richnchrispy
krys
I would just want to counter that my own feeling is that I cor 13 as written in its soft squishy form is good enough for 99.8% of all relationships - and the kind of firmness you speak of I find to be necessary no more than 0.2% of the time - and that usually only applies to self-appointed prophets, telemarketers, substance abusers, thieves, and complete jerks. Spouses, children and good friends usually do not need nor deserve the dark side of this philosophy.
Richard
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polar bear
CoolWaters-What a heart you have. Great post I love to hear these stories. Yes the problem with twi is "motive" you got it straight. Many times what I saw was- power related, "cause I'm the leader, you do this" or money related-"we need to witness more to bring in more". The promogation of the corporation.
Thank God here at GSC we don't need the money, the power struggle doesn't exist, there are no leaders. Ahhhhhhh what a wonderful world. Sit back enjoy the conversation.
There is still a little of twi thinking here but what dc you expect, it won't all go away at once.
One thing twi misses big time is how to genuinely love people. Especially in reproof. I don't want to go into a big discourse here because it has been covered in other threads, but genuine love even in reproof should be tender and kind. Jesus Christ was always tender with his loved ones. He only got firm with the hard hearted ones.
It should be that we just want to help bring people back up to the Word who have been caught in a fault. They have to choose to do it, we are just the messenger to help those who may have forgotten how good and loving and forgiving God is. What a great thing it is. Reproof should be done with respect and great love for the person. Wow we can even do that here. Let's have a great yeat together.
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krys
No - No - No - Motherof2 - I said in the beginning of the post that this was not in reference to you or the way you speak about how we understand what it is saying. I said that.
What I am opposed to is the way MANY OTHER PEOPLE used the verse - those who use it to tell you that you are not being loving if you correct them, or ask questioins.....those who use it to control you...to keep you under their thumb. How many times were WE screamed at and badgered especially to do things we really felt we shouldn't have to do.....such as show them a time schedule. [i's none of their business what I do in my life...and I don't have to make a schedule for a whole week that I religiously stick to. It's none of any body's business when my spouse and I have "personal time" and how often. Sometimes things change and we decide to have "personal time with spouse" and it's not on the schedule]. I'm just using that one regarding the schedule to show how idiotic the whole schedule thing was.
How I spend my money is nobody's business either. They wanted to see pay stubs and check books and monthly budgets. That's off limits - that's rude. THEY said they were guiding us in the best use of our resources, but what they REALLY wanted was to squeeze moreABS out of you AND make it stick...AND tell you God wouldn't spit in your direction unless you gave that exact amount of dollars - - and in the blue forms they could see it and if you didn't comply they would hold it against you one way or another. [some classes or events were only open to those who were faithfully giving at or above the standard]
BUT when we first rebelled at those ideas we were told that THEY were just lovingly making sure we were on the right track - or however they put it. THEY would use that verse among others to make us believe that THEY only had our best interest at heart and THEY wanted us to be the "best".
Richard....I think your track record is a little better than mine. Maybe I came in around 11% - 15%. You have more finesse than I do...and I lived in a "tough" area. People in some spots Joisey have a certain toughness about them in order to survive. Also - automatically I would be considered Inferior because I am a woman AND I was never Corps.
But if we're going to continue this conversation, we should do it on another thread. I don't want to derail this one. I've read CoolWater's post and I'm still thinking about it and other things are coming to my mind...and perhaps others are too. Let's keep that discussion going here because I think it's a good thing to do explore. (but that's just my opinion.)
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richnchrispy
krys
I do not feel like you derailed this thread at all. There are a lot of viewpoints to air out here and a lot to share, and then clarify since the net is so messy for clear communication.
Richard
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motherof2
ahhh...ok. that makes much better sense!
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krys
Okay then - - since we're still all here - -
CoolWaters, since you put it in those terms, that twi was a poison - that explains a lot of things. Also, it gives me [YMMV] a plausible reason as to why I stood around so long. It explains why I didn't see the evil and what the organization was doing to me, and, it mitigates the "guilt" I felt at being deceived.
That term about being deceived was thrown at us during the homo purge but also later when we were forced under other bondage such as budgets etc. What I had be oh-so-subtly taught was not to be deceived. So later when I got out, it was very hard to admit that I was. After all, "mature believers" shouldn't be caught like that should we. Especially since I had experience with a few devil spirits [not hoards of them over my 20 year stint] - and one of them was up close and personal! [for those of you who maintain that they don't exist - you're wrong, but the organization's take in this area is/was greatly overemphasized]
But the very last remnant of condemnation for me [YMMV] was CoolWaters's calling "it" a poison. Poison is in the real 3-D world and I understand poison. I understand that you can be fed this stuff so slowly that you don't realize you're being affected. It can go on for quite some time like this. Then you realize you don't feel so well, but you can't pin it on anything specific...like a cold, or muscle sprain, or a bad sinus headache...it's just a case of the "blahs" but nothing you can put your finger on specifically - - - until you are really too sick to function. By that time, you're in serious trouble, and if you don't have somebody to help you realize how sick you are, and take you for treatment, that's how you'll live your life....or, if they up the dose enough you'll die.
Most poisoning in the 3-D world can be alleviated or reversed. Maybe there will be physical damage, maybe there won't. But with the organization's poison everybody around you is also poisoned so nobody can really understand what is going on. So you never get the right treatment to restore you to "health".
CoolWaters, thank you. I owe you one, so to speak! Unless you had really thought this out and clearly expressed it on this thread, I would always have had a lingering doubt about why didn't I see it, how come I was there so long. Putting it in those terms set me free and I'm grateful.
krys
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DogLover
Cool Waters,
I have read many of your posts over many years, even as far back as TranceNet (though not as "Dog Lover" all the time.) Of all the posts, this one is the most well-put, most informative, and most helpful one ... which is not to "diss" the others :-) ... it is just to say that you have capsulized the harmful thinking that overzealous, non-Biblical TWIts (including me, sadly, sometimes) applied to themselves and others ... and I think it is true that it happened to us one step at a time, one bit of poison at a time ... thereby all the more deceiving and all the more effective, sadly.
Your post is well said, my dear!
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ROW
I didn't read all postings here, but I wanted to add my opinion on something.
I read a lot about how bad twi was. It definitely did turn bad.
Again I'll say "They taught me enough to know when it was time to leave". What I mean by that is that it was twi that taught me God's Word. It was twi that taught me how to get out of the negative thinking that plagued my life before I became a part of it. It was twi that got me to enjoy work. It was twi that taught me to keep myself in shape. It was twi that showed me that I should do things for God's glory and not my own (this is not to say that I succeed in these areas all the time). It was twi that taught me how to read the word. Etc., etc., etc....
But it was also twi that showed me that it was OK to go after someone elses wife (which I never did), that it was OK to make yourself an exception (if you were the leader), and as I've read here, to lay guilt on people, and also mistreat people.
I must say, though, that we can hear reproof in at least 2 ways:
1) The way it may have been intended (possible in love)
2) With guilt
I usually heard with guilt, but the people that were my leaders (in the mid '70's) made sure I knew that Christ died for that too (whatever "that" was).
I guess what I'm trying to say is that before twi turned bad (I left mentally in the mid '80's), I still believe that vpw did not intentionally try to deceive in the early years. My first wife "undershepherded" me and was with twi in the early '70's. She did nothing to make me feel bad. Many others worked w/me too, and again, did nothing but try to help me with God and his word. I loved going to twig. I loved going to meetings and taking classes to learn more. I loved the Corps and realized that I VOLUNTEERED to join the Way Corps and I’m still proud that it is a program that I graduated from. I knew what I was getting myself into and still decided to go.
BUT when the love left and people started being mistreated, I left.
I don’t think that we can blame twi for all that happened (negatively) to us. We were still in control of our minds, and contrary to what I’ve heard some say, we WERE able to leave any time we wanted. No one had a gun to our heads.
What we thought and think today is still up to us.
By the way, I hate writing as tool to communicate my thoughts because I always feel that I’m not doing it correctly, or may sound like a hard arss. Please forgive me if I do.
I’m sure there will be feedback on this.
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krys
Welcome ROW! We don't have all those fancy coffees here, but this is damn fine java and I can get you half-n-half if you want and somebody will be around soon with some tasty baked goods, we may be too late for fresh rolls and bagels, but we've a ton of really fine baked goods here and we're known for our mighty fine pies!{Belle? are you working today? What do you have?}
I'm not going to take you to task here because you're a newbie here and you're not familiar with everything that's gone on here. There have been a lot of waters under this bridge but you're going to have to read a lot to understand. One of the reasons you have your set of experiences, and thus, your opinion is timing. You left before you had a big enough dose of the poison, or, your neighborhood was much more friendly.
You mentioned that when you were reproved your leadership reminded you of Christ and what his death and resurrection accomplished. Most of us here who were in a little later will tell you that we heard little or nothing of Jesus Christ. He was for all intents and purposes absent - an after thought - usually only preached about on Resurrection Sunday (easter) and the week leading up to it. Otherwise - nada.
You had that choice because your leadership was apparently walking in love - I got in in '78 and for several years it was like that for me too but the change was so subtle, that I didn't see it until it was too late - - that is the point of CoolWater's post.
I hope you stick around here ROW. Many of us would love to know how you earlier "dudes and dudettes" remember things. Also, you seem to have yourself together so your expertise would be valuable here. You could add quite a lot to various conversations here around these tables.
Again, welcome to the cafe.
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ROW
Kinda like the frog in boiling water, huh.
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krys
Perzactly!
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johniam
I was never told that the reason for Christian ettiquette was to not PO the MOGs; I was taught that if you're going WOW and were going to witness to perhaps a large cross section of people, then you need to have enough refinement so as to not offend someone you may witness to.
In other words, the word we held forth was beautiful no matter what, but some people would never see it if we didn't present ourselves at least somewhat cultured. That was the idea.
I was a drug using hippie before TWI; I NEEDED some instruction in that area. No offense CW, but I'm glad you weren't in my WOW family; we'd have killed each other.
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Belle
Welcome, ROW!
They're getting ready for the lunch crowd, but here's some danishes baked earlier this morning. They're on the house for new folks. We're glad to have you here.
We, obviously, have different experiences depending on the time we were in, who we were involved with and who our leadership was. There was a gun held to some folks, but, as Krys says, those discussions can be found already going on here.
These two threads have so much good information and are so good that we keep them at the doors for new folks to gander while waiting for service.
Welcome to Greasespot Cafe!
Bob's Thread
Enjoy!
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Eagle
I remember etiqutte at the table...put to such extreme it was a real pain and annoyance to me while I was trying to eat. I decided to grab a plate at times when at TWI grounds and disappear. Of course, I couldn't be seen running with a plate of food to a room that was not inhabited. Or an office. Had to eat fast before you were seen and "reproved."
When I first arrived at TWI it was pleasant to eat with everyone else and just say prayers and eat. Then came the "host", "hostess", whatever, and lunchtime became one of the most miserable experiences in my life.
Eagle
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HCW
Cool post Cool.
I share some of your feelings & experiences.
Christian ettiquette training in TWI & the corps was review for me. In my family we have formal meals for every holiday w/ fine china, placesettings, multiple glasses, flatware, etc.
I agree w/ the TWIT-brain poison stuff and I too, was somewhat socially retarded by my time in TWI. That astounded me & I think helped save me from being still involved in TWI today.
Not wanting to turn your story into my story, but I will say that I feel you on what you wrote. I also remember you from posting back in the TranceChat days and will say that I've noticed that you have, in fact, made the changes you've spoken of.
Congrats babe!
I think that re-self discovery is a BIG part of the antidote to waybrain.
NOBODY comes to twi as a waybrained person. We all have individual selves that we suspend while we accept that crap.
RE finding one's self is a BIG key to freedom.
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T-Bone
Great post, CoolWaters! You always have some interesting stuff…After reading this thread and thinking about some of the things I heard with offshoot groups [like the ones on CES lately] – and thinking about the poison you mentioned – I'm even more convinced that post-TWI resolution is a lot more challenging than just identifying erroneous doctrine. It's also figuring out where the toxic ideas have polluted how we function personally and socially. Tonto and I were talking about this the other night – anyone who has left – especially leadership – has NO BUSINESS starting their own ministry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And if they truly have some kind of calling to serve other Christians maybe they ought to cool their jets awhile – perhaps subject themselves to the tutelage of some local church. And here's a suggestion on how to pick one – ask the former TWI leader what religious group he criticized the most – and yup – that's the one he's to join. Sorry, to rant on your thread, CoolWaters – but it really struck a nerve with me!
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CoolWaters
Wow! This thread has really turned out pretty much way more fantastic than what I thought! LOL
TYVM {{{{everybody}}}}!!!!
Just for clarification...
TWI did not teach that etiquette was for the mogs or anything...and I didn't say they did. What I said was that the people I knew were learning etiquette to please the mogs etc.. They weren't doing it for the social graces, but to keep themselves from getting reamed when they were eating with/serving leadersh*+.
My point was that leadersh*+ was so demanding and 'reproving' that it clouded anything graceful and colored it all bondage.
There's a bible verse about those who do turn the grace of our Lord into bondage...isn't there?
Krys...wow! I'm glad something clicked for you like that! I had no idea or intention...was just rambling mostly... :) That's the beauty of GSC, imo. :)
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bowtwi
I remember Dorothy Owens (The Etiquette Lady of The Way) saying that the reason for etiquette was simply to avoid ugliness. She also said that as Ambassadors for Christ we needed to be prepared to sit at the Governors' tables and feel comfortable. The main goal I remember of the etiquette training was that WE were comfortable in all situations.
She told a story of how a young man once grabbed a slice of watermelon and ate it in just a few bites and I believe that was lcm she was referring to.
She also taught us to eat bananas and bacon with a fork and a knife.
But, she also said that the host or hostess of the table set the tone. If they ate fried chicken with their fingers it was ok for everyone else to too.
So we watched the hostess and followed their lead.
I had no etiquette training whatsoever at home so I was especially thankful for what she taught. I never ate bananas or bacon with a fork except at headquarters or the indiana campus.
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CoolWaters
Although I do try to live in the real world most of the time...hehehe, wink, wink...I am still amazed when I hear that people had no etiquette training when growing up. Not because I judge, but because it was such a big deal in my life not only at home, but at school, church and all social functions. What I didn't get at home, I got in Brownies/Girl Scouts, Caravans (my church's equivalent to Girl Scouts), 4 years of Home Ec., and from friends who were shamed, just shamed, if someone's etiquette lacked (yep...snotty teen girls).
Yes, the point of etiquette is to feel comfortable and to make others feel comfortable. It's not to be better than, or to prove anything. Too often in twi, that's what happened, though.
I do know one point of etiquette in which twi failed miserably: graciousness towards others, and especially those perceived to be 'different'.
ANY etiquette teacher would be appalled at the way twi trashed the poor, the sick, the afflicted, the different. I never took Dorothy's etiquette classes, but I have to wonder if she ever touched on this form of etiquette?
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