"And just why is it you assume that seeking God would be a "good" thing? How about just taking what ones got and trying to make sense of it, without any preconceived notions?"
i dunno
that kind of question seems to carry the common monolithic assumptions about the word "God"...which seems to lead to other misconceptions and other preconceived notions
not much rational about that, imo
seem like just a newer kind of flatline myth alongside the old ones
most often mistaking POST___ for PRE___
and then rejecting them both together simply for being NON___
when rejecting PRE was never a good idea in the first place, either
...nor is POST___ anything like NON___
...if that makes sense or not
"How about just taking what ones got and trying to make sense of it, without any preconceived notions?"
cuz yep...for thousands of years, all over the world, many have called just that very same sort of question "seeking God"
and many of them have picked up your kind of suggestive question
(which they called things like "seeking God")
and took it far and wide
and even developed forms of art and science around such things
tho...too bad more crusading christians and muslims (and crusading atheists) didnt know this, ya know?
I mean after all is said and done, in a few short years others will take this spot you now hold. You will be dead and others will question again. As it has been going on for a long time. And when we no longer appear to the living as the men and woman that we are now.Could there possibly be another side of the story of Man.
Should have ended it with a question mark i guess...
You mean to tell us that once one believes in Christ, actually believes mind you, one *cannot* and *will not* turn away from that belief? That once they are (supposedly) 'born again' (or to use Cynic's term 'regenerate'), one cannot change their minds and no longer believe?
I know for a fact that I, at one time, did indeed believe in the Christian faith, and have come to 'fall away' as it were; ie., I walked away and no longer accept this belief system. Now either of you might think you know that I could not have truly believed, but I know otherwise. What can I do to prove it here? Not much I daresay, except my witness here. You just have to make up your minds on whether or not to accept what I say (and know) about myself.
Garth,
What is your “witness” worth? You claim to have believed. Believed in what? You lurked around the fringes of Christian faith, among Wayfers and CES devotees. At best, it would seem the beliefs you had involved a Unitarian misrepresentation of the God of Scripture and a christ who lacks the scriptural Christ’s divine nature, divine attributes, and eternal existence.
Despite your claim to “know” your former dispositions with respect to “Christian faith,” the issue here is something you know nothing about: God’s regeneration of sinners and gift of saving faith and repentance.
On man’s side of things it is difficult even for the regenerate to be certain whether they have genuine/saving/biblical faith or have some combination of emotionalism and intellectual assent. Jesus said that no man can come to him except the Father draw him, and that every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to the Son (read John, chapter 6). In saying those things, Jesus appeared not to be reinforcing, but rather challenging and undercutting whatever kind of faith was possessed by the multitude following him. His words did not woo followers; they drove many away. Genuine, or saving, faith is a gift of God. It is not something the un-drawn can produce of themselves; it is alien to man’s inherent nature.
Jesus once told Peter that Satan had desired to have him, but that Jesus had prayed that Peter’s faith would not fail. It appears from Jesus’ words that Peter had been approaching a crisis for which he did not have the wherewithal to persevere. Peter’s crisis was preempted by Jesus’ intercession and whatever divine preserving activity it secured from the Father. Jesus allowed none of his own to be lost. God does not act towards the elect in a single salvific event, then withdraw himself and let things play out. Those who ultimately depart from the faith were never really in it (1 John 2:19).
You have departed from the fringes of Christian faith and from professing anything somewhat resembling that faith. You now boast and glory in your autonomy, and exalt yourself in morally preening judgment of the God of Scripture. It is that God, however, who ultimately will be glorified in all his creatures, and who will be glorified in disposing of your rebellion -- either by demonstration of his mercy and grace in converting you, or by demonstration of his wrath in eternally destroying you.
Men cannot know the decretive will of God. I do not assume you will not be regenerated and converted. If God draws you towards his Son, and ignites in your soul faith and repentance, however, it will not lead to some reconstitution of your former self.
I also believe that those who seem spiritual, do prophecies, healings, etc., to whom Christ says, depart from me, I never knew you, were never really born again.
No marvel, Satan's ministers appear as angels of light, and do so in many churches, groups, etc., whereever people can be led away from Christ.
We are told in the last days, the church will become apostate, many will fall away, or look for new doctrines (new age, paganism, ufo-ology, whatever).
We now call Europe a post-christian society. Only 20% even believe in God anymore, and even less go to church. They've gone beyond it, with modern technology and science, they have no need for God anymore.
In this country, many pastors, priests, etc. will tell you they think Christ, the resurrection, and offer of eternal life is a nice story - they do not believe it, but many of their congregation do, so they play along.
I think Sunesis is correct in painting the problem of false believers as one that is rather ubiquitous among Christian churches and denominations. It seems likely that a church that attains more than a few members or that continues for a significant time will experience false believers entering the congregation. There are unbelievers who are church members and there are even whole denominations that are possibly more likely to attract clerics who are unconverted than to attract converted clergy. Even doctrinally orthodox churches and denominations are not immune to unbelievers rising to the pulpit, as well as sitting down in the pews. The problem of false believers in the church is one that historically has been rather well recognized.
Reformed theology generally has viewed the problem of false believers in terms of a distinction between the visible and the invisible church, though it should be noted that some Baptists quite strongly oppose a visible/invisible church distinction.
The invisible church is Christ’s true church, consisting of all who are elect and who have been effectually called to Christ and regenerated. Its membership is unknowable to earthlings prior to the consumation of redemptive history.
The visible church is a covenant community consisting of professing believers and their covenant children. Some in the visible church are members of the invisible church. Not all persons in the visible church, however, are of the invisible church. There are some outside the visible church who are in the invisible church, similarly as there are some in the visible church who are not elect and who are not genuine believers.
As I understand it, the Reformed view has a bit of a twist concerning false believers. It holds that all who are in the visible church are, in some sense, in the New Covenant. The visible church is a covenant community that receives the New Covenant ministry of the preached Word and sacraments (i.e. baptism and the Lord’s Supper). All in the visible church community are in the New Covenant in an externally identifiable aspect, though not all in the community are partakers of the New Covenant in its highest (i.e. spiritual) aspect. This view allows both for the recognition of the absolute security expressed in Scripture for those who are really Christ’s and for understanding the ultimate apostasy of those who are not Christ’s. A number of otherwise difficult scriptures can be viewed meaningfully if an external (communal) aspect of the New Covenant is recognized.
There are some outside the visible church who are in the invisible church, similarly as there are some in the visible church who are not elect and who are not genuine believers.
And are these that are outside the visible church but inside the invisible, part of the New covenant?
Since salvation is by grace and not works, and since Jesus died once for all (people and sins) once you accept him (or he you, for the Calvinists in the audience), I don't see how you can throw him out. Many "walk" away, but God in his mercy, keeps them in the fold.
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GarthP2000
Here Evan, have a doobie. Maybe that'll help clear this up for you.
"Oh w-o-w, like really trippin', man!"
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sirguessalot
"And just why is it you assume that seeking God would be a "good" thing? How about just taking what ones got and trying to make sense of it, without any preconceived notions?"
i dunno
that kind of question seems to carry the common monolithic assumptions about the word "God"...which seems to lead to other misconceptions and other preconceived notions
not much rational about that, imo
seem like just a newer kind of flatline myth alongside the old ones
most often mistaking POST___ for PRE___
and then rejecting them both together simply for being NON___
when rejecting PRE was never a good idea in the first place, either
...nor is POST___ anything like NON___
...if that makes sense or not
"How about just taking what ones got and trying to make sense of it, without any preconceived notions?"
cuz yep...for thousands of years, all over the world, many have called just that very same sort of question "seeking God"
and many of them have picked up your kind of suggestive question
(which they called things like "seeking God")
and took it far and wide
and even developed forms of art and science around such things
tho...too bad more crusading christians and muslims (and crusading atheists) didnt know this, ya know?
:blink:
...just sayin
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George Aar
Cman and Oldies,
Uh, the way a discourse like this is 'sposed to go, as best I know, is that,
somebody makes a point, then maybe I counter with different point. Then, if you want to play, you make your point.
That's how I thought it was supposed to work, anyway. Maybe I've been horribly mistaken...
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cman
Nice sirg...
Can go quite a way with that one for sure.
So George you want a point huh?
Do you know everything that you have that you can not see?
And if you can't see it, does that mean that it's not there? or you just don't see it?
Another point-
You can be thinking something right now that no one can see.
Where do you see it?
There's plenty of points to consider IF one wants to consider them.
Don't have to believe a thing, or buy a thing, just consider.
But many are happy in their own little thought life,
and refuse to consider other thoughts.
Which is fine with me.
But don't tell me that there isn't more to consider.
Cuz I already know there is, have seen it, experienced it, lived it.
And that 'IT' just may be there for you, designed with you in mind.
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cman
And I already made this POINT.
Should have ended it with a question mark i guess...
Cause you seemed to have missed the point.
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Cynic
Response
Garth,
What is your “witness” worth? You claim to have believed. Believed in what? You lurked around the fringes of Christian faith, among Wayfers and CES devotees. At best, it would seem the beliefs you had involved a Unitarian misrepresentation of the God of Scripture and a christ who lacks the scriptural Christ’s divine nature, divine attributes, and eternal existence.
Despite your claim to “know” your former dispositions with respect to “Christian faith,” the issue here is something you know nothing about: God’s regeneration of sinners and gift of saving faith and repentance.
On man’s side of things it is difficult even for the regenerate to be certain whether they have genuine/saving/biblical faith or have some combination of emotionalism and intellectual assent. Jesus said that no man can come to him except the Father draw him, and that every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to the Son (read John, chapter 6). In saying those things, Jesus appeared not to be reinforcing, but rather challenging and undercutting whatever kind of faith was possessed by the multitude following him. His words did not woo followers; they drove many away. Genuine, or saving, faith is a gift of God. It is not something the un-drawn can produce of themselves; it is alien to man’s inherent nature.
Jesus once told Peter that Satan had desired to have him, but that Jesus had prayed that Peter’s faith would not fail. It appears from Jesus’ words that Peter had been approaching a crisis for which he did not have the wherewithal to persevere. Peter’s crisis was preempted by Jesus’ intercession and whatever divine preserving activity it secured from the Father. Jesus allowed none of his own to be lost. God does not act towards the elect in a single salvific event, then withdraw himself and let things play out. Those who ultimately depart from the faith were never really in it (1 John 2:19).
You have departed from the fringes of Christian faith and from professing anything somewhat resembling that faith. You now boast and glory in your autonomy, and exalt yourself in morally preening judgment of the God of Scripture. It is that God, however, who ultimately will be glorified in all his creatures, and who will be glorified in disposing of your rebellion -- either by demonstration of his mercy and grace in converting you, or by demonstration of his wrath in eternally destroying you.
Men cannot know the decretive will of God. I do not assume you will not be regenerated and converted. If God draws you towards his Son, and ignites in your soul faith and repentance, however, it will not lead to some reconstitution of your former self.
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Cynic
Response
I think Sunesis is correct in painting the problem of false believers as one that is rather ubiquitous among Christian churches and denominations. It seems likely that a church that attains more than a few members or that continues for a significant time will experience false believers entering the congregation. There are unbelievers who are church members and there are even whole denominations that are possibly more likely to attract clerics who are unconverted than to attract converted clergy. Even doctrinally orthodox churches and denominations are not immune to unbelievers rising to the pulpit, as well as sitting down in the pews. The problem of false believers in the church is one that historically has been rather well recognized.
Reformed theology generally has viewed the problem of false believers in terms of a distinction between the visible and the invisible church, though it should be noted that some Baptists quite strongly oppose a visible/invisible church distinction.
The invisible church is Christ’s true church, consisting of all who are elect and who have been effectually called to Christ and regenerated. Its membership is unknowable to earthlings prior to the consumation of redemptive history.
The visible church is a covenant community consisting of professing believers and their covenant children. Some in the visible church are members of the invisible church. Not all persons in the visible church, however, are of the invisible church. There are some outside the visible church who are in the invisible church, similarly as there are some in the visible church who are not elect and who are not genuine believers.
As I understand it, the Reformed view has a bit of a twist concerning false believers. It holds that all who are in the visible church are, in some sense, in the New Covenant. The visible church is a covenant community that receives the New Covenant ministry of the preached Word and sacraments (i.e. baptism and the Lord’s Supper). All in the visible church community are in the New Covenant in an externally identifiable aspect, though not all in the community are partakers of the New Covenant in its highest (i.e. spiritual) aspect. This view allows both for the recognition of the absolute security expressed in Scripture for those who are really Christ’s and for understanding the ultimate apostasy of those who are not Christ’s. A number of otherwise difficult scriptures can be viewed meaningfully if an external (communal) aspect of the New Covenant is recognized.
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DrtyDzn
Jerry
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def59
Since salvation is by grace and not works, and since Jesus died once for all (people and sins) once you accept him (or he you, for the Calvinists in the audience), I don't see how you can throw him out. Many "walk" away, but God in his mercy, keeps them in the fold.
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