My point needs further development, but it is not that someone who has been truly regenerated, effectually called by God, and given the gift of faith can ultimately fall away into eternal perdition. It concerns one's assurance about having received regeneration, faith, repentance justification and everlasting life. Those who have been truly regenerated and effectually called by God will persevere, due to God's grace and working in them, unto the end. Their ultimate perseverance, however, does not mean they cannot for a time fall into serious sins.
Sinners become justified by the instrumentality of faith alone, not faith plus progression in sanctification. Those who have been justified by faith, however, will progress in sanctification.
So, have you posted anyone's email to you yet? May I ask, what prompted that little footnote of yours? :blink:
The spat about a poster posting another poster’s PM that’s going on in the “Letter from John Lynn” thread is the proximate reason for my notice. No one, however, has PM’d me recently, unleashed a tirade in a PM to me, or written something juicy that is worth publicly posting.
God knows His children, the hairs are numbered by him!
All knees will bow to christ! All will come before the judgement.
I do believe once a person confeses Jesus as LORD and believes God raised him from the dead he is saved from death eternal .
Some do deny the christ never consider the possibility of God. They will die and never meet the new world kingdom, but and yet still answer to OUR Saviour on the day of judgement and be told just why.
Some change their thinking but the spirit has still taken ahold of their life.
how Christ will deal with them in the kingdom and i do believe they will belong but with a price, as is today for wrong thinking and living is His job.
It is not a secret folks without the spirit will be in the kingdom.. they will have babies and live out a natural life amoung the believers and worshippers of the king of KING... they will be with us yet not believing in what it is.. UNTILL th
Wherefore I give you to understand that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3.
There are many people who intellectually like the Bible, Jesus, go to church, or belonged to TWI, or other organizations and enjoyed it. They enjoyed the fellowship and the people. Maybe some were raised in a church culture, or a home where someone was a believer, and it was a way of life, a societal tradition they have carried on.
We have seen threads in the past years here where people faked SITing at the end of PFAL, or other places. One of my relatives, who took PFAL and SITed at the end of PFAL, told me he hadn't really, he was speaking italian phrases. Anyone can read the Bible, memorize it, analyze it, research it, and quote scripture. That does not mean they are necessarily born again.
I truly believe once one is born again, they cannot lose it.
I also believe that those who seem spiritual, do prophecies, healings, etc., to whom Christ says, depart from me, I never knew you, were never really born again.
No marvel, Satan's ministers appear as angels of light, and do so in many churches, groups, etc., whereever people can be led away from Christ.
We are told in the last days, the church will become apostate, many will fall away, or look for new doctrines (new age, paganism, ufo-ology, whatever).
We now call Europe a post-christian society. Only 20% even believe in God anymore, and even less go to church. They've gone beyond it, with modern technology and science, they have no need for God anymore.
In this country, many pastors, priests, etc. will tell you they think Christ, the resurrection, and offer of eternal life is a nice story - they do not believe it, but many of their congregation do, so they play along.
That is why God tells us not to judge - we cannot know who is and who isn't born again. Although fruit is an indication. Although, if someone who was once a Christian now told me they were an athiest, I would believe them, and think they probably were never born again. The "true" christians I know, in their hearts could never conceive of, or dream of turning away from and renouncing Christ.
Those who renounce with no problem, I think never really knew him. Mental assent, sure, that's easy to do - but that doesn't mean they ever really believed in their hearts.
One point I would like for either Sunesis or Cynic to make clear to all of us here (including lil ol' apostate me).
You mean to tell us that once one believes in Christ, actually believes mind you, one *cannot* and *will not* turn away from that belief? That once they are (supposedly) 'born again' (or to use Cynic's term 'regenerate'), one cannot change their minds and no longer believe?
I know for a fact that I, at one time, did indeed believe in the Christian faith, and have come to 'fall away' as it were; ie., I walked away and no longer accept this belief system. Now either of you might think you know that I could not have truly believed, but I know otherwise. What can I do to prove it here? Not much I daresay, except my witness here. You just have to make up your minds on whether or not to accept what I say (and know) about myself.
Ya know, one reason why I think some folks have this "You cannot turn away if you truly believe, and you never really believe if you do turn away" mentality, is this deep seated (and fear driven) denial that someone can actually do something on their own w/o God controlling it or without His say so. Ie., there is an incident where God is not _totally_ in control of a person's decision and actions, and that pi**es some people off, or even scares them. Ie., Gotta have God in total control of everything in order for some people to feel secure about life, ... even if it means turning us all into mindless automatons as a result.
Well, I see *no* security in that, thank you very much. <_<
Ya know, one reason why I think some folks have this "You cannot turn away if you truly believe, and you never really believe if you do turn away" mentality, is this deep seated (and fear driven) denial that someone can actually do something on their own w/o God controlling it or without His say so.
Doubtless there are some who think as you characterize but it's based on a classic Way misunderstanding. Wayology tends to equate belief with immediate and permanent regeneration. Arguments already made above(and doubtless which will follow) are based on one lone verse and are flippantly expressed.
The more mainsteam Protestant view says that regeneration will reflect itself in a transformed life, with the caveats Cynic referenced above. Your current state may (or may not) indeed reflect the fact you were never regenerated, but doesn't deny what you believed at one time.
My bone of contention is with those who conclude on outward evidence that a person is saved or not, whether that outward evidence be speaking in tongues (on the flimsy evidence of one lone verse whose application is debatable) or a profligate life. I think if I hear "I know they're not saved because...." one more time, I'll scream.
Gathering assurance of salvation because one has 'done the formula' of Rom 10:9 or because one has heard themselves utter tongues is awfully flakey. It is an outer & artificial assurance, thinks me, based on one's belief about two lone verses. When I realized how flimsy my own (then mostly Way)belief system was some years back, I had a huge "faith crisis" that had me questioning my salvation. Frankly, I saw too little evidence of my professed faith in my thoughts and actions. That crisis drove me to my knees in seeking an answer, not theological, but in my heart. I did eventually get an inner assurance of salvation and now thank God for the crisis, for by it I sought the Lord and received assurance from Him, not my creed or belief.
No, I believe there are many who are born again and have turned away from church, or after an experience like TWI would like nothing to do with any kind of organized Xianity again. But they are born again.
In fact, I know quite a few Christians who do not attend church. They just can't stomach it anymore.
I don't know about any of you. That's why we are told not to judge.
As far as being "controlled" - I don't get that at all. I think that's leftover TWI thinking - that said God is in control of every facet of your life. I think it comes down to a simple exchange where Christ says, give me your life and in return, I will give you mine.
He stands at the door and knocks, note he does not barge his way in.
In TWI if you let him in, then you had to take classes, go WOW, corps, or "do great things for God" somehow. This is rubbish. He wants us to live our lives and use our minds.
He is the portal - to a new dimension, a new creation, eternity.
He offers this to us. Its not about control.
Each case is individual and in God's hands.
But, I do wonder about someone who says they were born again, and can just chuck is all without a second thought and walk away from Christ.
All I can go by is my experience. Even when I left TWI, wanted nothing more to do with organized religion, I still never lost my desire to learn about him and God still worked with me and taught me things through the years. I was never able to turn my back on him.
So, really, who's to say - no man can ever judge who is and who is not a new creation. We will find out soon enough I imagine.
But, I do wonder about someone who says they were born again, and can just chuck is all without a second thought and walk away from Christ.
I know you're not talking about Garth (or any other of our resident "aliens" in particular) with this, but I wanted to add that I don't believe Garth (or Geo, or Sudo, etc) walked away wothout a second thought.
Amen about the judging. The only assurance I have is of my own salvation. Others? I just don't know. Me? I hope I live in such a way that it distinguishes me as uniquely Christian, but again, I dunno.
... but I wanted to add that I don't believe Garth (or Geo, or Sudo, etc) walked away wothout a second thought.
Speaking for myself, I have indeed have had 2nd thoughts about my path. 2nd, 3rd, 4th, et al. To a lot of us who walked away, for one reason or another, we have indeed had many doubts, fears, wonderings about "What if I'm wrong, and/or God *smites* me" or some other such thoughts that we all had to deal with, and much of those based on such fear-based motivations that has been drilled into us since day one, in one form or another, when we were in 'the flock'.
And again, speaking for myself, I have come to the conclusion that such fear-based guilt tripping and mental intimidations finally wound up helping me arrive at my now-present conclusion.
Well, I wasn't really talking about the fear-based guilt tripping. I presumed that you didn't make your choice flippantly but di it after careful & rational thought.
So, tell me, why are you so ridden with fear & doubt? :B)
So, tell me, why are you so ridden with fear & doubt?
Ridden? No, but I have had to deal with those kinds of doubts, for the same reason why many others who dropped the Christian faith. Ie., they had to deal with the drilled-in and habitual thoughts of fear and doubt, mainly along the lines of images of a God getting wrathful because of those who walk away and no longer believe. Thoughts/fears that are based on the widespread (and quite orthodox, I might add) doctrine about what happens when people no longer hold onto the Christian faith. Teachings, communications, subtle (and some not so subtle) reminders to perhaps not-so-faithful followers of the dire consequences of leaving the faith/no longer believing. And that doesn't even deal with the social anathema one sometimes (many times based on many of the deconversion stories I have read) receives when they become ..... an unbelieving infidel!
And please spare me the "But that is a mis characterization of the Christian faith" please. I've heard over and over again the spiel in regards this topic from a wide range of churches/denominations, and the hold it has on many people, both on an individual and community level.
Why, if I were to use the anti-cult lingo that many use here, I'd say that it has quite a 'cultic and mind controlling' hold on people. :blink:
Yeah, I thought about that stuff. I can't say as it was real tough to come to the point where I just didn't buy the whole pie-in-the-sky theology anymore though. I mean, if you step back from it all and just take a dispassionate look at what's being preached, well, it's just silly. And utimately (and ironically) selfish and self centered. "Oh please God, make sure that I live forever!" (after all, I deserve it right? I mean, I've been good, I've gone to church, I've prayed, I've given you money, now you do your part right?)
Yeah, I know, THAT"S not MY religion!
Regardless, the whole Bible scenario just stuck me more and more as simply superstition run amok. And you don't have to DO anything different, just BELIEVE and God will take care of you. And all those poor bastards who don't believe? F'em! What good are they to God anyway?
That's how I perceive it, anyway. Childish, illogical, unverifiable, and ultimately it's all about what WE can get out of it. We get to live forever! Not the dogs or cats, or the mushrooms, or rotifers, but us HUMANS. Why humans? Cause we're so perfect? Of course not! We're TERRIBLE! Just AWFUL! But God loves us so much that He'll save us, IF we just jump through the right hoops! Jump through the wrong hoops (even though you THINK they're the right hoops?) NO SOUP FOR YOU!
Yeah, I've skewed what "real" religion is all about I'm sure. But - so be it. I can't go around living a lie, just to be sure that I'll get my slice of pie, sorry...
Jeez Garth but you're testy ( do I hear yet another tirade a-brewing?). I was simply trying to counter another poster dismissing a decision like yours or George's as flippant. I was saying that, au contraire, it was rational & deliberate.
It sounds as though its religion people are ....ed off at - which I totally agree with. I don't want to be jumping through hoops, do this, do that, either. I don't want some pastor, leader, group of people, or whatever, judging me either - ever!
The tragic thing about TWI was there was no knowledge of Christ. None. The only time we ever used the name was at the end of a prayer.
I truly believe that those who drive away people who want to know God, were not of God - yes, this includes to me the Vicster. How can one chop out the gospels and Revelation?
I don't look at the Bible as a history book.
I have come to see it over the years as a book of prophecy.
We know all of the angels and all of creation sang and rejoiced when earth was made.
The Bible shows the perfection, ruination, and restoration to perfection again.
Its a walk with God, not some leader or organization.
I am not talking about certain individuals here either.
I know for a lot us, because of TWI teachings - we were waiting for the lightening bolt, tragic car accident, or whatever fear TWI put in our minds to keep us there - to hit when we left.
I remember the day, on a sidewalk in NYC, when I turned and walked away. I felt, joy, and as if great bondage had been lifted. It was time to get on with my life.
I believe it was God working in the hearts and minds of those of us who left. He got us out.
I think God's just patiently waiting for many of us, because of our TWI experience, who want nothing to do with God or the Bible (this included me) to come back.
I also came across two books that really changed my life.
What got me, is in TWI we were never taught the "rudiments" of Christianity. I read people's questions here (not talking about anyone individually, just over my years here on GS), that are so rudimentary, I am just amazed the damage TWI has done.
I don't want to go to the church of religion either.
'Rejecting Christ' and 'chucking' are IMO reflect the negative viewpoint of other's beliefs by those who hold to a Only One Right Way And It Is Mine And If You Don't Hold It You Are WRONG belief system.
Rejecting and chucking may not be at all the process a person who left Christianity went through...but those with the One Right Way seem to have no capacity to listen. Painting other religions with the demon brush is one thing I do reject. Christian = good person, Non Christian = bad person does not hold true for me. You'd think the heavenlt reward would be given to the good, but even Christians can't decide on who gets in.
Christian society = good, Non Christian society = bad also doesn't work for me.
I think the world would be a better place if people of faith could practice their faiths in ways that are right for them with out the enmity/demonizing of others who hold different beliefs.
I know as soon as I hear that type of attitude, it clouds the 'I have a wonderful relationship with my God' words the person may also be saying. I'm thinking--scary, not to be trusted, stay awaaaaay, don't Let that person into your life, danger danger Will Robinson.
If love for Christ and God is so wonderful and full of love and light, then why are others viewed so negatively? To me it seems related to fear.
Being burnt by a religion who claimed to know God and that you could know him too, is a major setback for most in their search for this God that so many say they believe. Or Jesus Christ in which many to profess to be their Lord and Savior.
Religions are Gods themselves and to the extent that a person lets such religion decide for them what to believe it then becomes that person's god. It carrys with it more power then the person and is blameless because their is no end of questions being answered without any real solid proof or foundation. Most not all accept whatever religion offers of their choosing and happily-sometimes-moves on. Others of course are more deadly and harmful as we know.
If one comes to the point of casting religion aside, I believe this to be a good start in actually evaluating one's beliefs. Assuming that this person still seeks this God.
Let's change the name God and Jesus Christ to a name of your choice. Any name. Just to get the old religion thinking out of mind and be able to consider that their could be something that is there but not yet realized.
I mean after all is said and done, in a few short years others will take this spot you now hold. You will be dead and others will question again. As it has been going on for a long time. And when we no longer appear to the living as the men and woman that we are now. Could there possibly be another side of the story of Man.
I don't think you're on the same page as some of the rest of us.
Re:"If one comes to the point of casting religion aside, I believe this to be a good start in actually evaluating one's beliefs. Assuming that this person still seeks this God."
And just why is it you assume that seeking God would be a "good" thing? How about just taking what ones got and trying to make sense of it, without any preconceived notions?
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ChasUFarley
Counter points:
John 10:28:
and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
Hebrews 7:25:
Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
If you can become unsaved, then what is the point of Romans 12?
If you can become unsaved, then what is the point of living according to the Word? (see Phil 1)
If you can become unsaved, then why would God bother giving his only begotten son? For an exercise in grief and pain for Jesus Christ?
Just some thoughts...
---------------------
So, have you posted anyone's email to you yet? May I ask, what prompted that little footnote of yours? :blink:
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Cynic
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Chas,
My point needs further development, but it is not that someone who has been truly regenerated, effectually called by God, and given the gift of faith can ultimately fall away into eternal perdition. It concerns one's assurance about having received regeneration, faith, repentance justification and everlasting life. Those who have been truly regenerated and effectually called by God will persevere, due to God's grace and working in them, unto the end. Their ultimate perseverance, however, does not mean they cannot for a time fall into serious sins.
Sinners become justified by the instrumentality of faith alone, not faith plus progression in sanctification. Those who have been justified by faith, however, will progress in sanctification.
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Cynic
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The spat about a poster posting another poster’s PM that’s going on in the “Letter from John Lynn” thread is the proximate reason for my notice. No one, however, has PM’d me recently, unleashed a tirade in a PM to me, or written something juicy that is worth publicly posting.
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pond
God knows His children, the hairs are numbered by him!
All knees will bow to christ! All will come before the judgement.
I do believe once a person confeses Jesus as LORD and believes God raised him from the dead he is saved from death eternal .
Some do deny the christ never consider the possibility of God. They will die and never meet the new world kingdom, but and yet still answer to OUR Saviour on the day of judgement and be told just why.
Some change their thinking but the spirit has still taken ahold of their life.
how Christ will deal with them in the kingdom and i do believe they will belong but with a price, as is today for wrong thinking and living is His job.
It is not a secret folks without the spirit will be in the kingdom.. they will have babies and live out a natural life amoung the believers and worshippers of the king of KING... they will be with us yet not believing in what it is.. UNTILL th
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What The Hey
Wherefore I give you to understand that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3.
Says it clear enough for me.
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Sunesis
There are many people who intellectually like the Bible, Jesus, go to church, or belonged to TWI, or other organizations and enjoyed it. They enjoyed the fellowship and the people. Maybe some were raised in a church culture, or a home where someone was a believer, and it was a way of life, a societal tradition they have carried on.
We have seen threads in the past years here where people faked SITing at the end of PFAL, or other places. One of my relatives, who took PFAL and SITed at the end of PFAL, told me he hadn't really, he was speaking italian phrases. Anyone can read the Bible, memorize it, analyze it, research it, and quote scripture. That does not mean they are necessarily born again.
I truly believe once one is born again, they cannot lose it.
I also believe that those who seem spiritual, do prophecies, healings, etc., to whom Christ says, depart from me, I never knew you, were never really born again.
No marvel, Satan's ministers appear as angels of light, and do so in many churches, groups, etc., whereever people can be led away from Christ.
We are told in the last days, the church will become apostate, many will fall away, or look for new doctrines (new age, paganism, ufo-ology, whatever).
We now call Europe a post-christian society. Only 20% even believe in God anymore, and even less go to church. They've gone beyond it, with modern technology and science, they have no need for God anymore.
In this country, many pastors, priests, etc. will tell you they think Christ, the resurrection, and offer of eternal life is a nice story - they do not believe it, but many of their congregation do, so they play along.
That is why God tells us not to judge - we cannot know who is and who isn't born again. Although fruit is an indication. Although, if someone who was once a Christian now told me they were an athiest, I would believe them, and think they probably were never born again. The "true" christians I know, in their hearts could never conceive of, or dream of turning away from and renouncing Christ.
Those who renounce with no problem, I think never really knew him. Mental assent, sure, that's easy to do - but that doesn't mean they ever really believed in their hearts.
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GarthP2000
One point I would like for either Sunesis or Cynic to make clear to all of us here (including lil ol' apostate me).
You mean to tell us that once one believes in Christ, actually believes mind you, one *cannot* and *will not* turn away from that belief? That once they are (supposedly) 'born again' (or to use Cynic's term 'regenerate'), one cannot change their minds and no longer believe?
I know for a fact that I, at one time, did indeed believe in the Christian faith, and have come to 'fall away' as it were; ie., I walked away and no longer accept this belief system. Now either of you might think you know that I could not have truly believed, but I know otherwise. What can I do to prove it here? Not much I daresay, except my witness here. You just have to make up your minds on whether or not to accept what I say (and know) about myself.
Ya know, one reason why I think some folks have this "You cannot turn away if you truly believe, and you never really believe if you do turn away" mentality, is this deep seated (and fear driven) denial that someone can actually do something on their own w/o God controlling it or without His say so. Ie., there is an incident where God is not _totally_ in control of a person's decision and actions, and that pi**es some people off, or even scares them. Ie., Gotta have God in total control of everything in order for some people to feel secure about life, ... even if it means turning us all into mindless automatons as a result.
Well, I see *no* security in that, thank you very much. <_<
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TheEvan
Doubtless there are some who think as you characterize but it's based on a classic Way misunderstanding. Wayology tends to equate belief with immediate and permanent regeneration. Arguments already made above(and doubtless which will follow) are based on one lone verse and are flippantly expressed.
The more mainsteam Protestant view says that regeneration will reflect itself in a transformed life, with the caveats Cynic referenced above. Your current state may (or may not) indeed reflect the fact you were never regenerated, but doesn't deny what you believed at one time.
My bone of contention is with those who conclude on outward evidence that a person is saved or not, whether that outward evidence be speaking in tongues (on the flimsy evidence of one lone verse whose application is debatable) or a profligate life. I think if I hear "I know they're not saved because...." one more time, I'll scream.
Gathering assurance of salvation because one has 'done the formula' of Rom 10:9 or because one has heard themselves utter tongues is awfully flakey. It is an outer & artificial assurance, thinks me, based on one's belief about two lone verses. When I realized how flimsy my own (then mostly Way)belief system was some years back, I had a huge "faith crisis" that had me questioning my salvation. Frankly, I saw too little evidence of my professed faith in my thoughts and actions. That crisis drove me to my knees in seeking an answer, not theological, but in my heart. I did eventually get an inner assurance of salvation and now thank God for the crisis, for by it I sought the Lord and received assurance from Him, not my creed or belief.
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Sunesis
No, I believe there are many who are born again and have turned away from church, or after an experience like TWI would like nothing to do with any kind of organized Xianity again. But they are born again.
In fact, I know quite a few Christians who do not attend church. They just can't stomach it anymore.
I don't know about any of you. That's why we are told not to judge.
As far as being "controlled" - I don't get that at all. I think that's leftover TWI thinking - that said God is in control of every facet of your life. I think it comes down to a simple exchange where Christ says, give me your life and in return, I will give you mine.
He stands at the door and knocks, note he does not barge his way in.
In TWI if you let him in, then you had to take classes, go WOW, corps, or "do great things for God" somehow. This is rubbish. He wants us to live our lives and use our minds.
He is the portal - to a new dimension, a new creation, eternity.
He offers this to us. Its not about control.
Each case is individual and in God's hands.
But, I do wonder about someone who says they were born again, and can just chuck is all without a second thought and walk away from Christ.
All I can go by is my experience. Even when I left TWI, wanted nothing more to do with organized religion, I still never lost my desire to learn about him and God still worked with me and taught me things through the years. I was never able to turn my back on him.
So, really, who's to say - no man can ever judge who is and who is not a new creation. We will find out soon enough I imagine.
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TheEvan
I know you're not talking about Garth (or any other of our resident "aliens"
in particular) with this, but I wanted to add that I don't believe Garth (or Geo, or Sudo, etc) walked away wothout a second thought.
Amen about the judging. The only assurance I have is of my own salvation. Others? I just don't know. Me? I hope I live in such a way that it distinguishes me as uniquely Christian, but again, I dunno.
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GarthP2000
Speaking for myself, I have indeed have had 2nd thoughts about my path. 2nd, 3rd, 4th, et al. To a lot of us who walked away, for one reason or another, we have indeed had many doubts, fears, wonderings about "What if I'm wrong, and/or God *smites* me" or some other such thoughts that we all had to deal with, and much of those based on such fear-based motivations that has been drilled into us since day one, in one form or another, when we were in 'the flock'.
And again, speaking for myself, I have come to the conclusion that such fear-based guilt tripping and mental intimidations finally wound up helping me arrive at my now-present conclusion.
Then again YMMV.
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TheEvan
Well, I wasn't really talking about the fear-based guilt tripping. I presumed that you didn't make your choice flippantly but di it after careful & rational thought.
So, tell me, why are you so ridden with fear & doubt? :B)
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GarthP2000
Ridden? No, but I have had to deal with those kinds of doubts, for the same reason why many others who dropped the Christian faith. Ie., they had to deal with the drilled-in and habitual thoughts of fear and doubt, mainly along the lines of images of a God getting wrathful because of those who walk away and no longer believe. Thoughts/fears that are based on the widespread (and quite orthodox, I might add) doctrine about what happens when people no longer hold onto the Christian faith. Teachings, communications, subtle (and some not so subtle) reminders to perhaps not-so-faithful followers of the dire consequences of leaving the faith/no longer believing. And that doesn't even deal with the social anathema one sometimes (many times based on many of the deconversion stories I have read) receives when they become ..... an unbelieving infidel!
And please spare me the "But that is a mis characterization of the Christian faith" please. I've heard over and over again the spiel in regards this topic from a wide range of churches/denominations, and the hold it has on many people, both on an individual and community level.
Why, if I were to use the anti-cult lingo that many use here, I'd say that it has quite a 'cultic and mind controlling' hold on people. :blink:
... but, I won't.
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George Aar
Did someone mention my name?
Yeah, I thought about that stuff. I can't say as it was real tough to come to the point where I just didn't buy the whole pie-in-the-sky theology anymore though. I mean, if you step back from it all and just take a dispassionate look at what's being preached, well, it's just silly. And utimately (and ironically) selfish and self centered. "Oh please God, make sure that I live forever!" (after all, I deserve it right? I mean, I've been good, I've gone to church, I've prayed, I've given you money, now you do your part right?)
Yeah, I know, THAT"S not MY religion!
Regardless, the whole Bible scenario just stuck me more and more as simply superstition run amok. And you don't have to DO anything different, just BELIEVE and God will take care of you. And all those poor bastards who don't believe? F'em! What good are they to God anyway?
That's how I perceive it, anyway. Childish, illogical, unverifiable, and ultimately it's all about what WE can get out of it. We get to live forever! Not the dogs or cats, or the mushrooms, or rotifers, but us HUMANS. Why humans? Cause we're so perfect? Of course not! We're TERRIBLE! Just AWFUL! But God loves us so much that He'll save us, IF we just jump through the right hoops! Jump through the wrong hoops (even though you THINK they're the right hoops?) NO SOUP FOR YOU!
Yeah, I've skewed what "real" religion is all about I'm sure. But - so be it. I can't go around living a lie, just to be sure that I'll get my slice of pie, sorry...
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TheEvan
Jeez Garth but you're testy ( do I hear yet another tirade a-brewing?). I was simply trying to counter another poster dismissing a decision like yours or George's as flippant. I was saying that, au contraire, it was rational & deliberate.
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GarthP2000
C'mon Evan. You know me enough by now to know about my smooth and suave (not to mention diplomatic?
) posting style.
Why even my tirades can be (and sometimes are) rational and deliberate.
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Sunesis
It sounds as though its religion people are ....ed off at - which I totally agree with. I don't want to be jumping through hoops, do this, do that, either. I don't want some pastor, leader, group of people, or whatever, judging me either - ever!
The tragic thing about TWI was there was no knowledge of Christ. None. The only time we ever used the name was at the end of a prayer.
I truly believe that those who drive away people who want to know God, were not of God - yes, this includes to me the Vicster. How can one chop out the gospels and Revelation?
I don't look at the Bible as a history book.
I have come to see it over the years as a book of prophecy.
We know all of the angels and all of creation sang and rejoiced when earth was made.
The Bible shows the perfection, ruination, and restoration to perfection again.
Its a walk with God, not some leader or organization.
I am not talking about certain individuals here either.
I know for a lot us, because of TWI teachings - we were waiting for the lightening bolt, tragic car accident, or whatever fear TWI put in our minds to keep us there - to hit when we left.
I remember the day, on a sidewalk in NYC, when I turned and walked away. I felt, joy, and as if great bondage had been lifted. It was time to get on with my life.
I believe it was God working in the hearts and minds of those of us who left. He got us out.
I think God's just patiently waiting for many of us, because of our TWI experience, who want nothing to do with God or the Bible (this included me) to come back.
I also came across two books that really changed my life.
What got me, is in TWI we were never taught the "rudiments" of Christianity. I read people's questions here (not talking about anyone individually, just over my years here on GS), that are so rudimentary, I am just amazed the damage TWI has done.
I don't want to go to the church of religion either.
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Bramble
'Rejecting Christ' and 'chucking' are IMO reflect the negative viewpoint of other's beliefs by those who hold to a Only One Right Way And It Is Mine And If You Don't Hold It You Are WRONG belief system.
Rejecting and chucking may not be at all the process a person who left Christianity went through...but those with the One Right Way seem to have no capacity to listen. Painting other religions with the demon brush is one thing I do reject. Christian = good person, Non Christian = bad person does not hold true for me. You'd think the heavenlt reward would be given to the good, but even Christians can't decide on who gets in.
Christian society = good, Non Christian society = bad also doesn't work for me.
I think the world would be a better place if people of faith could practice their faiths in ways that are right for them with out the enmity/demonizing of others who hold different beliefs.
I know as soon as I hear that type of attitude, it clouds the 'I have a wonderful relationship with my God' words the person may also be saying. I'm thinking--scary, not to be trusted, stay awaaaaay, don't Let that person into your life, danger danger Will Robinson.
If love for Christ and God is so wonderful and full of love and light, then why are others viewed so negatively? To me it seems related to fear.
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GarthP2000
Very well put, Bramble!
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cman
Being burnt by a religion who claimed to know God and that you could know him too, is a major setback for most in their search for this God that so many say they believe. Or Jesus Christ in which many to profess to be their Lord and Savior.
Religions are Gods themselves and to the extent that a person lets such religion decide for them what to believe it then becomes that person's god. It carrys with it more power then the person and is blameless because their is no end of questions being answered without any real solid proof or foundation. Most not all accept whatever religion offers of their choosing and happily-sometimes-moves on. Others of course are more deadly and harmful as we know.
If one comes to the point of casting religion aside, I believe this to be a good start in actually evaluating one's beliefs. Assuming that this person still seeks this God.
Let's change the name God and Jesus Christ to a name of your choice. Any name. Just to get the old religion thinking out of mind and be able to consider that their could be something that is there but not yet realized.
I mean after all is said and done, in a few short years others will take this spot you now hold. You will be dead and others will question again. As it has been going on for a long time. And when we no longer appear to the living as the men and woman that we are now. Could there possibly be another side of the story of Man.
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cman
Or no name since the names of God and Jesus Christ have been so abused.
Not to slight who they are or what they do.
But just to give the mind a break from fighting that which may be a hinderance to sound thinking.
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George Aar
Cman,
I don't think you're on the same page as some of the rest of us.
Re:"If one comes to the point of casting religion aside, I believe this to be a good start in actually evaluating one's beliefs. Assuming that this person still seeks this God."
And just why is it you assume that seeking God would be a "good" thing? How about just taking what ones got and trying to make sense of it, without any preconceived notions?
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oldiesman
Why is seeking God a good thing?
Here's my two cents:
God once said to man,
"you started out as dirt, you will end up as dirt"
As so goes mankind without the good graces of God.
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cman
Good point George and Exactly what I'm talking about.
Do you know everything you have? Inside and Out?
We'll probably never grasp it all....
That's why one can never really say they have the answer for someone else.
It must come from within yourself and continue from there.
I will not live in a bubble of someone else's idea or even my own.
But will continue to explore the universe of the mind.
Which is thoughts that are not seen....invisable.
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