I totally get these things...I mean, I was in twi too long...but...
That's all so fundamentalist. It doesn't even follow with twi's own teaching about Jesus...that the whole bible is about Him. Ya know?
If I can back up a bit from the 'nuts and bolts' narrow focus and look at the big picture, then I can see that Jesus is far more than a person in the bible. He's a symbol. He's universal. He's the goal.
Peppered throughout the bible is this image of that which is perfect. Nowhere can one go in the bible without finding this image of righteousness, pastoral ministering, wise counsel and judgment, and all these things typically attributed to Jesus.
In the big picture, Jesus is an idea that superimposes itself over all other things.
And looking at things from this perspective, then one can turn to a whole lot of examples of how things are done without going to hell in a handbasket and destroying people's lives.
For example...
This eschewing of the gospels...what a thing to ensure going to hell in a handbasket!
Because I had for so long let this mentality work in my personal life, I was amazed at the simple things I had missed!
Like Tamar.
Has anybody ever read the story of Tamar? Wow! What a story! And so very apropos to today's world!
If I had ever read the story of Tamar in twi, I would have done many, many things differently.
In Tamar's story is part of Jesus' story.
The imagery, the symbolism, the 'moral of the story'...these things are this idea of Jesus superimposing itself in the big picture.
But by looking only at the 1st century church, we cut out all the wisdom, all the history, all the years of walking with God that went before the 1st century church...and even before the physical reality of Jesus came to being.
And we cut off the fruit of the spirit at the knees...
It's been driving me nuts of late...and particularly since this whole ces/stfi discussion...
Why do all discussions of what works/doesn't work biblically in this day and age start off with something like, "well in the 1st century church," or, "I do/do not see where Paul did/did not do somethingorother," or other such sentiments?
Why is the standard not Jesus?
This seems such an obvious problem to me.
It seems to me that Wierwille's viewpoint is directly related to the influence of Darby on his theological point of view. (Darby invented the "dispensation" theory...modified by Bullinger to be "ultra-dispensationalism" -- that, specifically, was closest to the viewpoint held by Wierwille)
As we all will recall, ad nauseum, Wierwille taught that the Church Dispensation began on Pentacost. All things that discussed the timeline prior to Pentacost were to be considered "old testament" and not written "to us," but "for our learning."
(As a sidebar, this comes from a perversion of Romans 15:4, For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning. Naturally, that exalts one phrase above the entire verse, which says, For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. (You will note that the verse says nothing about them not being applicable to us)
The point of this being that he could not support his theology if the actions and teachings of Jesus, while he was on earth, were listed as being directly applicable to us. Therefore, Jesus' words were not really the standard...only Paul's words. Never mind the fact that the majority of the Gospels (with the exception of Mark's gospel) were written well after Paul wrote his letters to the various particular churches.
(What would scare the *** out of VP and out of a lot of folks is that if a person wanted to really get back to the first century church in their worship and practice, they would need to go to the Maronite Church, the Chaldean Church, the Melkite Church, or the Coptic Church...those folks' worship order would be very recognizable by the first century fathers)
That thing you said..."The point of this being that he could not support his theology if the actions and teachings of Jesus, while he was on earth, were listed as being directly applicable to us. Therefore, Jesus' words were not really the standard...only Paul's words. Never mind the fact that the majority of the Gospels (with the exception of Mark's gospel) were written well after Paul wrote his letters to the various particular churches."
The cutting off of the vine.
And ces/stfi and all the offshoots start from that premise.
To me, this is the original fallacy...the thing that started the train on derail from the beginning.
OM, more people than not 'heard' twi espouse an eschewing of the gospels.
Can you tell me about Tamar?
************************
Teaching 'the administrations' is confusing at best. How that mentality came across in twi...and came across in the offshoots I've had experience with...was akin to a history teacher saying that because it is now the Bush II administration, the Bush I administration has no bearing on what is happening today.
Maybe that's not how it was meant to be, but that's how it was practiced.
It's been driving me nuts of late...and particularly since this whole ces/stfi discussion...
Why do all discussions of what works/doesn't work biblically in this day and age start off with something like, "well in the 1st century church," or, "I do/do not see where Paul did/did not do somethingorother," or other such sentiments?
Why is the standard not Jesus?
This seems such an obvious problem to me.
What bothers me is the sheer arrogance of the statement. The notion/implication that said group has some inside track or special knowledge that no one in roughly 1900 plus years has been able to find.
Also mixed in there is a very myopic (in my opinion) view of the scriptures and how they are to be understood, which basically amounts to my way or the highway - my god is bigger than your god.
But hey, that's just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
OM, more people than not 'heard' twi espouse an eschewing of the gospels.
This is not accurate. TWI did not teach an eschewing of the gospels. What kind of stinking horse manure are you trying to communicate now?
The foundational premise of your argument is wrong, therefore what follows will be erroneous and fall under evil surmisings.
So what else is new?
BTW I think the greatest truth Jesus taught in the gospels is the first and great commandment, which was wonderfully and bountifully expounded upon in Paul's writings, which truth was and is the foundation of all the major truths in the epistles.
Everywhere you go, everything you say adds up to the SOSDD: "I have nothing to add to the conversation. My only purpose is to cast the shroud of evil over things, derail threads, avoid direct questions, act holier than everybody else, and pontificate on the righteousness of twi."
Well, maybe they didn't exactly cut them out, but their words were blunted and softened, being subordinated to what was supposedly written TO us.
Every major truth of significant proportions that is set forth in the gospels is adequately covered in the epistles so I really don't know what your beef is.
Every major truth of significant proportions that is set forth in the gospels is adequately covered in the epistles so I really don't know what your beef is.
Maybe some of us have a different perspective/opinion regarding what constitutes a "truth of significant proportion"
CoolWaters.. I think this "like it hasn't been known since the 1st century.." concept is closely related to the overrated and overused "rightly dividing" concept.
If somebody's lifelong ambition in life is to have on his/her tombstone "Wow, they were really RIGHT", my opinion- they may have a few "issues".
vic admitted his ambition as such, that he wanted a "product" that he did NOT HAVE TO BACK DOWN FROM.
Sounds like he wanted to be God Almighty.
Others self-admittedly have a "product" that they'll surf all the way to hell, if that's what it takes.. and they (in their own minds) can trace it back to the first century.
i love reading your lines of curiousity and inquiry and what they evoke in circles, cw
such sacred questions and questioning lead us like a candle through the woods of ignorance
and sacred answers are never absolute
unless one is telling a fib, of course
like i just clearly did
and will now continue to do
that said...
if i were to classify, or reflect on the qualities of the "since the first century" thing in christian culture
in any spiritual, rational, mythical sense...or other rambling non-sense
in doctrines
in practices
in lifestyles
whatever
i would have to say that the most injurious grain in the story of cultures like TWI, CES and such
is very closely tied to this extremely naive first century claim
and all the many reasons the claim has been made
in doctrines
in practices
in lifestyles
whatever
somehow, deeply imbedded in the shared storylines is a pattern that causes people to basically resist openly and honestly examining the contents and contexts of most all other spiritual lineages that do not share this very very specific lineage claim
other lineages (people, books, communities) are rejected for having names and words and maps (and yes...racial profiles) that are perhaps simply too exotic and alien to represent too complex a range of spiritual experience
in doctrines
in practices
in lifestyles
whatever
and so not only does vpw's STFC doctrine cut us off from most all lines to abraham
but from most all lines to any such truths of jesus
and to two millenium of judeo-christian thought
and to protestants and evangelicals
and as well as most all members of their own spiritual sub-sub-sub-sub-culture
in doctrines
in practices
in lifestyles
whatever
and so there is basically no access to the lion's share of spiritual wisdom available to us
the doctrine renders one mostly incapable of leaving a very small self-justified cave
and unable to compare anything with anything...
all the while maintaining the same bold lineage claims
where more than 99% of the world's spiritual wisdom is a shared taboo
and "hiding from us" in our own shadows
in doctrines
in practices
in lifestyles
whatever
the usual subjects like shame, guilt, fear, pride, envy, lust...
are also sewn into the "since the first century" storyline
which sadly, is also a storyline shared by a portion of this generation of judeo-christianity
that is much wider than twi and ces
which sadly, also includes a streak of being hell-bent on duplicating itself
which sadly, includes a "parting gift" of
- being "allergic" to most any spiritual academic or community activity that resembles TWI
- being "addicted" to most any spiritual academic or community activity that resembles TWI
which, imo, is somewhat alarming to observe
at this point in our history and spiritual evolution
or whatever you want to call IT
i dunno
just saying
:blink:
a few helpful places i can see "the' conversation going (not just this thread)
is discussions around...
- the value of seen our relationship with truth and goodness as a spiritual "spectrum" of "unfolding" human experience, rather than flat and monochrome and static.
- and how we might find a way to see simple spiritual "measuring" is not the same as imposing pre-rational hierarchy. but rather a spirituality that is more as a curious naturalist in the wilderness, where snakes and scorpions and demons and dragons are no longer seen as evil
- and how we might explore the deeper shared traits of all traditions, as well as new technogies
while appreciating the cause and qualities and values of their differences
i love the old saying how "one cant be a "good christian" unless they are "good jew," first"
because not only is the "twi program's" grasp of christian history/doctrine/practice/lifestyle quite thickly foggy
but the grasp of jewish history/doctrine/practice/lifestyle is equally thickly foggy
in spite of the claims and bravado and toying with idioms and lexicons and such
...
btw, did you know there was a period of about 500 years where jews, christians, muslims and others wide-open-heartedly shared and compared spiritual traditions all across europe in the name of medicine and healing?
and yet this extraordinary period is mostly strangely absent from our awareness and history
and we band into disfunctional clans who make a 2000 year claim
did you know that in THIS century, the most deeply devoted christians and buddhists and hindus others of the world have been deeply and successfully engaged in spiritual dialogues for generations now...right under our noses?
and yet this extraordinary period is mostly strangely absent from our awareness and history
and we band into disfunctional clans who make a 2000 year claim
With all the winds of doctrine, following Paul or Apollos instead of Jesus, false prophecies, ravening wolves, false witness, adultry, divorce, ignoring the poor and the widows, false brethren, doctrines of devils, foresaking the assembly of the saints, hardened hearts, "puffing up" and other such, I thought we HAD actually returned to the first century church.
One day, maybe we will all realize that Jesus mentioned that loving God and your neighbor as yourself are the two laws that the rest hang on, including anything written in those short and few epistles that were many centuries later decided to be included in the NT canon of scripture.
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WordWolf
Well,
it's believed (with reason) among the ex-twi community that Jesus Christ had an earthly ministry of about
a year, and it had a specific purpose with a specific goal.
Contrast that with the apostles he chose, and the disciples who follwed him (about 120 at first) including
Paul whom he chose personally, who had years to put things into practice.
That's not to say that studying how Jesus did things when here is without merit-
FAR FROM IT.
However, it's easier to find examples of practice in Acts, to find recommendations or reproof in
the Epistles, so chalk that down partly to practicality,
and partly to laziness.
A separate issue is the disdain for the Gospels inculcated by vpw, which penetrated deep into
the twi mentality, and has affected all the twi survivors and their teachings,
to greater or lesser degrees.
(Some have made concerted efforts to overcome that, many have not.)
So, those are reasons.
They may not all be GOOD reasons, but there you go.
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CoolWaters
TYVM, WW.
I totally get these things...I mean, I was in twi too long...but...
That's all so fundamentalist. It doesn't even follow with twi's own teaching about Jesus...that the whole bible is about Him. Ya know?
If I can back up a bit from the 'nuts and bolts' narrow focus and look at the big picture, then I can see that Jesus is far more than a person in the bible. He's a symbol. He's universal. He's the goal.
Peppered throughout the bible is this image of that which is perfect. Nowhere can one go in the bible without finding this image of righteousness, pastoral ministering, wise counsel and judgment, and all these things typically attributed to Jesus.
In the big picture, Jesus is an idea that superimposes itself over all other things.
And looking at things from this perspective, then one can turn to a whole lot of examples of how things are done without going to hell in a handbasket and destroying people's lives.
For example...
This eschewing of the gospels...what a thing to ensure going to hell in a handbasket!
Because I had for so long let this mentality work in my personal life, I was amazed at the simple things I had missed!
Like Tamar.
Has anybody ever read the story of Tamar? Wow! What a story! And so very apropos to today's world!
If I had ever read the story of Tamar in twi, I would have done many, many things differently.
In Tamar's story is part of Jesus' story.
The imagery, the symbolism, the 'moral of the story'...these things are this idea of Jesus superimposing itself in the big picture.
But by looking only at the 1st century church, we cut out all the wisdom, all the history, all the years of walking with God that went before the 1st century church...and even before the physical reality of Jesus came to being.
And we cut off the fruit of the spirit at the knees...
IMO.
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markomalley
It seems to me that Wierwille's viewpoint is directly related to the influence of Darby on his theological point of view. (Darby invented the "dispensation" theory...modified by Bullinger to be "ultra-dispensationalism" -- that, specifically, was closest to the viewpoint held by Wierwille)
As we all will recall, ad nauseum, Wierwille taught that the Church Dispensation began on Pentacost. All things that discussed the timeline prior to Pentacost were to be considered "old testament" and not written "to us," but "for our learning."
(As a sidebar, this comes from a perversion of Romans 15:4, For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning. Naturally, that exalts one phrase above the entire verse, which says, For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. (You will note that the verse says nothing about them not being applicable to us)
The point of this being that he could not support his theology if the actions and teachings of Jesus, while he was on earth, were listed as being directly applicable to us. Therefore, Jesus' words were not really the standard...only Paul's words. Never mind the fact that the majority of the Gospels (with the exception of Mark's gospel) were written well after Paul wrote his letters to the various particular churches.
(What would scare the *** out of VP and out of a lot of folks is that if a person wanted to really get back to the first century church in their worship and practice, they would need to go to the Maronite Church, the Chaldean Church, the Melkite Church, or the Coptic Church...those folks' worship order would be very recognizable by the first century fathers)
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CoolWaters
Yes, Mark, there it is...
That thing you said..."The point of this being that he could not support his theology if the actions and teachings of Jesus, while he was on earth, were listed as being directly applicable to us. Therefore, Jesus' words were not really the standard...only Paul's words. Never mind the fact that the majority of the Gospels (with the exception of Mark's gospel) were written well after Paul wrote his letters to the various particular churches."
The cutting off of the vine.
And ces/stfi and all the offshoots start from that premise.
To me, this is the original fallacy...the thing that started the train on derail from the beginning.
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oldiesman
Just because YOU eschewed the gospels and missed great truths from there and the old testament, doesn't mean everyone else did.
Twi taught tremendous truths from the old testament and gospels.
Did you burn all your twi materials so you can't read them again?
But I agree with Mark's explanation of our great zeal of the epistles.
Has to do with the 7 administrations and what was written "to" the church.
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CoolWaters
OM, more people than not 'heard' twi espouse an eschewing of the gospels.
Can you tell me about Tamar?
************************
Teaching 'the administrations' is confusing at best. How that mentality came across in twi...and came across in the offshoots I've had experience with...was akin to a history teacher saying that because it is now the Bush II administration, the Bush I administration has no bearing on what is happening today.
Maybe that's not how it was meant to be, but that's how it was practiced.
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Abigail
What bothers me is the sheer arrogance of the statement. The notion/implication that said group has some inside track or special knowledge that no one in roughly 1900 plus years has been able to find.
Also mixed in there is a very myopic (in my opinion) view of the scriptures and how they are to be understood, which basically amounts to my way or the highway - my god is bigger than your god.
But hey, that's just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
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oldiesman
This is not accurate. TWI did not teach an eschewing of the gospels. What kind of stinking horse manure are you trying to communicate now?
The foundational premise of your argument is wrong, therefore what follows will be erroneous and fall under evil surmisings.
So what else is new?
BTW I think the greatest truth Jesus taught in the gospels is the first and great commandment, which was wonderfully and bountifully expounded upon in Paul's writings, which truth was and is the foundation of all the major truths in the epistles.
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Ham
Naw, they just cut it out of the bible with proper "rightly" surgical dividing of sorts.
Forget the idea it was actually addressed to the church as such..
Luke was a GENTILE..
All written after most epistles..
Well, maybe they didn't exactly cut them out, but their words were blunted and softened, being subordinated to what was supposedly written TO us.
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CoolWaters
Everywhere you go, everything you say adds up to the SOSDD: "I have nothing to add to the conversation. My only purpose is to cast the shroud of evil over things, derail threads, avoid direct questions, act holier than everybody else, and pontificate on the righteousness of twi."
Start your own thread, please OM?
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oldiesman
Every major truth of significant proportions that is set forth in the gospels is adequately covered in the epistles so I really don't know what your beef is.
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Abigail
Maybe some of us have a different perspective/opinion regarding what constitutes a "truth of significant proportion"
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oldiesman
OK Coolwaters, ya got me.
I know nothing about Tamar.
Please share the story of Tamar.
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Ham
CoolWaters.. I think this "like it hasn't been known since the 1st century.." concept is closely related to the overrated and overused "rightly dividing" concept.
If somebody's lifelong ambition in life is to have on his/her tombstone "Wow, they were really RIGHT", my opinion- they may have a few "issues".
vic admitted his ambition as such, that he wanted a "product" that he did NOT HAVE TO BACK DOWN FROM.
Sounds like he wanted to be God Almighty.
Others self-admittedly have a "product" that they'll surf all the way to hell, if that's what it takes.. and they (in their own minds) can trace it back to the first century.
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sirguessalot
i love reading your lines of curiousity and inquiry and what they evoke in circles, cw
such sacred questions and questioning lead us like a candle through the woods of ignorance
and sacred answers are never absolute
unless one is telling a fib, of course
like i just clearly did
and will now continue to do
that said...
if i were to classify, or reflect on the qualities of the "since the first century" thing in christian culture
in any spiritual, rational, mythical sense...or other rambling non-sense
in doctrines
in practices
in lifestyles
whatever
i would have to say that the most injurious grain in the story of cultures like TWI, CES and such
is very closely tied to this extremely naive first century claim
and all the many reasons the claim has been made
in doctrines
in practices
in lifestyles
whatever
somehow, deeply imbedded in the shared storylines is a pattern that causes people to basically resist openly and honestly examining the contents and contexts of most all other spiritual lineages that do not share this very very specific lineage claim
other lineages (people, books, communities) are rejected for having names and words and maps (and yes...racial profiles) that are perhaps simply too exotic and alien to represent too complex a range of spiritual experience
in doctrines
in practices
in lifestyles
whatever
and so not only does vpw's STFC doctrine cut us off from most all lines to abraham
but from most all lines to any such truths of jesus
and to two millenium of judeo-christian thought
and to protestants and evangelicals
and as well as most all members of their own spiritual sub-sub-sub-sub-culture
in doctrines
in practices
in lifestyles
whatever
and so there is basically no access to the lion's share of spiritual wisdom available to us
the doctrine renders one mostly incapable of leaving a very small self-justified cave
and unable to compare anything with anything...
all the while maintaining the same bold lineage claims
where more than 99% of the world's spiritual wisdom is a shared taboo
and "hiding from us" in our own shadows
in doctrines
in practices
in lifestyles
whatever
the usual subjects like shame, guilt, fear, pride, envy, lust...
are also sewn into the "since the first century" storyline
which sadly, is also a storyline shared by a portion of this generation of judeo-christianity
that is much wider than twi and ces
which sadly, also includes a streak of being hell-bent on duplicating itself
which sadly, includes a "parting gift" of
- being "allergic" to most any spiritual academic or community activity that resembles TWI
- being "addicted" to most any spiritual academic or community activity that resembles TWI
which, imo, is somewhat alarming to observe
at this point in our history and spiritual evolution
or whatever you want to call IT
i dunno
just saying
:blink:
a few helpful places i can see "the' conversation going (not just this thread)
is discussions around...
- the value of seen our relationship with truth and goodness as a spiritual "spectrum" of "unfolding" human experience, rather than flat and monochrome and static.
- and how we might find a way to see simple spiritual "measuring" is not the same as imposing pre-rational hierarchy. but rather a spirituality that is more as a curious naturalist in the wilderness, where snakes and scorpions and demons and dragons are no longer seen as evil
- and how we might explore the deeper shared traits of all traditions, as well as new technogies
while appreciating the cause and qualities and values of their differences
and without "flinching" at them
in whatever ways we keep "flinching"
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sirguessalot
to add...
i love the old saying how "one cant be a "good christian" unless they are "good jew," first"
because not only is the "twi program's" grasp of christian history/doctrine/practice/lifestyle quite thickly foggy
but the grasp of jewish history/doctrine/practice/lifestyle is equally thickly foggy
in spite of the claims and bravado and toying with idioms and lexicons and such
...
btw, did you know there was a period of about 500 years where jews, christians, muslims and others wide-open-heartedly shared and compared spiritual traditions all across europe in the name of medicine and healing?
and yet this extraordinary period is mostly strangely absent from our awareness and history
and we band into disfunctional clans who make a 2000 year claim
did you know that in THIS century, the most deeply devoted christians and buddhists and hindus others of the world have been deeply and successfully engaged in spiritual dialogues for generations now...right under our noses?
and yet this extraordinary period is mostly strangely absent from our awareness and history
and we band into disfunctional clans who make a 2000 year claim
:blink:
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1broken1
With all the winds of doctrine, following Paul or Apollos instead of Jesus, false prophecies, ravening wolves, false witness, adultry, divorce, ignoring the poor and the widows, false brethren, doctrines of devils, foresaking the assembly of the saints, hardened hearts, "puffing up" and other such, I thought we HAD actually returned to the first century church.
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TrustAndObey
Lol.. 1broken1... How true and sad that is!
One day, maybe we will all realize that Jesus mentioned that loving God and your neighbor as yourself are the two laws that the rest hang on, including anything written in those short and few epistles that were many centuries later decided to be included in the NT canon of scripture.
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1broken1
LOL - yeah - i love how paul starts off as the 'least of the apostles' and after 35 years 'promotes' himself to the 'chiefest of sinners.'
2,000 years and we're still human after all - same problems humanity has always faced -
Thank God HE had a plan for redemption.
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Sushi
This reminds me of a joke (I know, how strange
)
A man was performing his duties as a janitor in a church.
At one point, he falls to his knees at the altar and says,"Lord, thank you for the humility to know my place in your family".
Three priests who were preparing the church for a wedding, overheard the janitor.
One of them says to the other two, "Oh, look who thinks he's so humble....."
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