Here is the way I see it. CES embraced the prophetic movement of CI and took it to far.
About 10 years ago, we were at a Dallas CES meeting. Right in the middle of the meeting, Karen Ann jumped up and yelled, "We are the Jousha generation".
John Lynn replied to us privately that she was a little nutty and off the wall. We all laughed.
Yet later, this so called prophetess is the "voice of the Lord for CES leaders and followers".
Wow, it really is unbelievable that this has happened but not surprising.
I really believe people should stop supporting CES with gifts of money. What do they do to deserve God's peoples monies??? They spend much of their time writing letters to each other. What a joke.
I'm sure the lawyers and accountants who work for CES love their salaries.
And again, one cannot confront the leaders of CES because we are not spiritually mature enough.
Well I say, take the dough away and let these people get back to the Word instead of silly dreams, visions and phony prophetic voices.
this is the crux of it, to me. but i don't know how many would agree with me as to the nature of "the lie." for me, it's all about turning over your freedom of thought. IF you decide to believe the bible (or any other fixed set of rules, standards, etc. that aren't to be questioned), you have relinquished ultimate control of your life. if you do that within the context of an organization, there's bound to be a person or persons happy to take the reins for you. for me, that's the first step down, and it's two-pronged. first, you're admitting you aren't able to be in charge of your own life. and second, you're at least allowing the possibility that maybe someone else should be. (god, via a representative.)
from there, it's not a long way to where JAL has obviously ended up. is the bible true? yes. were there prophets in bible times? yes. has god changed? no. so what if the things a modern-day prophet (or prophetess) says are wacky—aren't there plenty of wacky visions and revelations right there in the bible?
from where i stand, it's just a matter of where you draw the line. some of us here have decided we're not playing at all anymore. some still believe, but with reservations. others believe wholeheartedly, but refuse to give anyone else any control. those who slid from twi straight into a splinter seem to be more likely to swallow ever-bigger whoppers. but why not? they've been suppressing their gag reflex for a long, long time.
"I've also read John's letter to Mark and Karen Anne, etc, posted here by one of his little buddies. Forget about prayer and praise, God must truly love a soap opera, if we can judge by His "leadership." What a cast of the most unsympathetic, and pathetic, characters. The Graesers and Resners evoke a level of contempt usually reserved for Wierwille and Martindale - these delusional fruitcakes are grotesquely unqualified to lead anybody anywhere, aren't they? Yet, followed they are."
I agree.
I was speaking with a very loving minister today about a different situation. But it kept reminding me of this whole CES thing.
He said until a person asks for redemption they will be tricked in their own ego. God has to reveal to JAL the man he REALLY is. He has to be face to face with what he has become and what evil he has allowed. Until he is humbly faced with the kind of man he truly is, there will be no change in any ministry he starts. Pride goeth before the fall and a haughty spirit before destruction. Until there is redemption there will just be more prideful decisions... IMO
Satori said...The Graesers and Resners evoke a level of contempt usually reserved for Wierwille and Martindale - these delusional fruitcakes are grotesquely unqualified to lead anybody anywhere, aren't they? Yet, followed they are."
.....Well, hopefully, followed they were.
If enough people simply know what has been exposed here at GS, the word will spread to where other folks will not 'follow' Mark and Karen Anne or Tom and Susan into their next venture, should they choose to begin one, or at least folks will speak up to those who do.
What Dot said of JAL applies to all of the past and present CES BOD/Staff...God has to reveal to [them] the [person each] REALLY is. He has to be face to face with what he has become and what evil he has allowed. Until he is humbly faced with the kind of [person] he truly is, there will be no change in any ministry he startsPride goeth before the fall and a haughty spirit before destruction. Until there is redemption there will just be more prideful decisions... IMO
.....To which I say...your opinion is God's opinion, so I'm with you both!
Again, the goal is redemption for all involved...and hopefully folks who choose to be friends with any of the CES BOD/Staff will not only pray for that end but also daily call them all to it in word and deed, thus actually leading them, rather than following any of them at all.
I pictured in prayer for mirrors to surround him - so he can truly see what he is -- He cannot hide in a "bad " marriage to a black widow sneezing woman with maggots.... He cannot hide behind prophesies which are nothing but personal drivel. Or Momentus classes which give a taste of something palatable but has nothing to do with Jesus... Sure the songs are there... A few verses perhaps... But it is a group visit to a shrink... IMO
I picture that everywhere he looks he is faced with another mirror facing him so there is no corner to escape it. Just the truth of who and what he is. When he realizes (if) he doesn't like what he sees then there can be redemption. But so far, I have never seen John even take a minute to reflect... If reflection is needed he just "keeps moving." *** But without true reflection you keep moving further and further away from where you should be.
Kisses to you Grace!
*****Reminds me of 2 Timothy
Chapter 3
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Dot, I know Grace already quoted you on this, but I think it's important enough to repeat again. I just think that twi and its offshoots cultivate unhealthy pride in leaders and followers alike. Thank you for your thoughtful posts.
He said until a person asks for redemption they will be tricked in their own ego. God has to reveal to JAL the man he REALLY is. He has to be face to face with what he has become and what evil he has allowed. Until he is humbly faced with the kind of man he truly is, there will be no change in any ministry he starts. Pride goeth before the fall and a haughty spirit before destruction. Until there is redemption there will just be more prideful decisions... IMO
About 10 years ago, we were at a Dallas CES meeting. Right in the middle of the meeting, Karen Ann jumped up and yelled, "We are the Jousha generation".
At this moment in time, a couple of ushers should have taken her by the arms and led her out of the room...once in the hallway, a sock in her mouth might have been appropriate...They could have avoided a lot of trouble had they of caught this in the bud...
...but of course they didn't...no, instead they decided that she was a "prophetess" and started taking her psychotic dreams SERIOUSLY...think about it...what does this say about THEIR grasp of reality? Straight out of twi and all their turmoil and suddenly (drum roll please), a few ex-twi leaders have become the guardian of "God's true ministry"....again...with a few added "embelishments"...primal screaming anyone? (Momentus, formerly known as "Lifespring" and before that "EST")...but that didn't really pan out so...hmmmm, I know, let's make the crazy woman a "prophetess"...
I knew that Mark Graeser was as crazy as a pet racoon...and I knew that JAL "had issues that had issues"...but I'm surprised at Shoenheit...maybe I gave him more credit than he deserved.
I thought I would add something to this discussion.
I spent a few months reading a bunch of different cult books - how they work - that sort of thing.
What I found interesting about E's letter was that almost everything she said was in all of those cult books. It was like I was re-reading my books and not someone's letter.
That left me with the impression that she was the only one involved in this whole thing that seem to know what was really going on. If that's true (and it is) that means all those prophecies are full of cram, which of course means that all of those prophets are working for someone other than God.
I have to agree with you Grace... it seems that JAL and the Graeser's are "taking all of the heat" here... in my opinion they are all complicit in this...
I can't for the life of me imagine how all of the others (the Rs, the Ss, the Ts, the Galls) could have been on the same board with them and not known or participated in these things... and cannot imagine how any supporter of CES could continue to support a CES that had any of them running it...
But that's just my opinion... It does puzzle me that I haven't heard more about things that the others may have been involved with or condoned, although (again, my opinion) standing by and allowing even the things that have been brought 'to light' thus far is certainly enough to show that they shouldn't be "in charge"...
That's just my opinion mind you... and it's also my opinion that others sharing information would not fall under the realm of "gossip"... I'd think it would fall more accurately under the realm of "information that sheds light upon darkness"...
That's just my opinion mind you... and it's also my opinion that others sharing information would not fall under the realm of "gossip"... I'd think it would fall more accurately under the realm of "information that sheds light upon darkness"...
At this point people need to be absolutely alerted so they can be aware of what they're involved in and supporting - it's not gossip it's a warning. It also goes without saying that people need to know there's an issue so they can be in prayer for resolution, restoration and healing, for the introduction of more light. This kind of junk pops out of an infection that's been festering, which opens a time for healing or a more serious infection.
I can't for the life of me imagine how all of the others (the Rs, the Ss, the Ts, the Galls) could have been on the same board with them and not known or participated in these things... and cannot imagine how any supporter of CES could continue to support a CES that had any of them running it...
Also the Berwid's are signed on that clergy report and have been in the middle of the neo-momentus AND marriage seminars. Not sure what fruit those programs are producing after reading through these sad letters. Click here to read about Indy Momentus Version 1.0. It might not be called momentus anymore but they're still doing the Lifeboat excercise.
Can you picture Jesus running this class? If not then that's probably an indicator of whether or not to keep it. 'Ok Judas, punch your pillow and yell at your parents. Now we're going to do the lifeboat excercise.'
I have sent two e-mails to CES, but they were not addressed to anyone specifically. I’m not sure who got them or if anyone bothered to read them.
My take on things is a little different from all of the other opinions I’ve heard so far. I’ll try to explain without sounding too nuts.
When you let doctrinal error into a group it doesn’t just sit there all harmless. It spawns practical errors. Eventually, other errors that are based on the first error develop and more practical error results. It just keeps going and going until it has roots. If no one catches this in time…
There is at least one major doctrinal error I am aware of that CES let in the door – feminism. I understand that a lot of women were hurt deeply by the abuse the so-called men in twi inflicted upon them, but trading one error for another isn’t going to work.
This is what nailed Karen Ann (among other things I’m sure). She is CES’s Jezebel. She took out JAL and his wife (I’m not saying he’s innocent). That put Karen Ann’s man in line to be the head of CES. Once there she ruled CES through her husband and kept taking key people out.
I believe it is key to understand that Karen Ann is the ringleader – she is the Jezebel. To fix this she must be removed permanently. Then someone needs to remove the feminism that was let in the door.
What these women did was to couch feminism in Christianity to make it more marketable to believers. But a rose by any other name is still a rose and feminism does what it has always done – destroy the lives of men, women, and children. You cannot find women’s lib in the Bible and believers should not be able to find it at CES either.
As for the big question about a woman’s proper place in the Body of Christ there is a simple answer. If God raises a person up to be a teacher, then they will be a teacher. Anyone who fights against this will be fighting against God and will lose. The gender of the person is unimportant.
Rather than creating some official feminist policy about women in the church we should just let God do his job.
I can't for the life of me imagine how all of the others (the Rs, the Ss, the Ts, the Galls) could have been on the same board with them and not known or participated in these things... and cannot imagine how any supporter of CES could continue to support a CES that had any of them running it...
...standing by and allowing even the things that have been brought 'to light' thus far is certainly enough to show that they shouldn't be "in charge"...
...others sharing information would not fall under the realm of "gossip"... I'd think it would fall more accurately under the realm of "information that sheds light upon darkness"...
To paraphrase Yoda, The Dark Side clouds Everything! Blind are we, if this evil we could not see!
Adherents and supporters of CES/STFI (as well as of other groups implying their "curve on the truth" is superior to other groups) may wish to consider deeply the points Tom Strange makes in his post, and re-evaluate whether or not they trust anything these folks have to say.
Maybe all the principals in this sad story should have taken a good long vacation from being bible teachers and counselors after their exit from the Way.
uptown1...Maybe you could explain what you mean by "feminism"...
Allowing Karen Ann Graeser to spout off her psychotic dreams, intruding into people's lives and causing great harm to them has very little to do with "feminism" as I understand it...the same madness could be perpetrated by a man as well.
But a rose by any other name is still a rose and feminism does what it has always done – destroy the lives of men, women, and children. You cannot find women’s lib in the Bible and believers should not be able to find it at CES either.
There is at least one major doctrinal error I am aware of that CES let in the door – feminism
.
Yeah, what upset God is that He looked down into the kitchen and there was not a stew in the oven, and the spice rack was in disarray, and God said "I will smote them!"
What I did hear from one friend is that his wife and another woman went to a Women's Conference and came away feeling like they were almost ready to go in the parking lot and burn their bras. Lots of anti-man anger. But then some of it was coming from events with Vic & friends and their motorcoach - and I know that can make a person very very angry if they were subjected to that inexcusable abuse.
Also KAG mentioned encountering the old TWI dominant male clergy attitude and having a hard time being allowed to contribute in the 90's. So I think she pushed back until she was heard. My question for her would be - was she pushing so everyone would have more voice - or so KAG would have more of a say? I think it was more the latter.
I think that this was a small group of women in CES that had this attitude and ongoing struggles, and I am not sure everyone knew their background when they encountered these ladies. So I think some people were left walking away and saying "wow where did that come from?" and they didn't always get a clear answer about the past influences.
But then we also see in all of this the TWI influence of the strong male leader - who likes to talk a lot and doesn't listen near enough. I think this is not across the board, some better, some worse. But overall it is the corporate leader role model which I personally think does not fit with a Jesus led church, and leads to lots of sandbox pushing and shoving. People eventually get frustrated and push back or they leave.
I recall John Lynn and I will quote said "militant feminism is wrong" , on a tape and my ears perked up as I have been
single lady in twi and ces.
I again didnt have a clue what he was saying in a type of code word, for ears to hear .
I think has been a issue and richard is right on.
KG taught at a fellowship I attended, and when a person (not a regular at the fellowship asked her a question, she said and again I quote "all questions have to be answered by my husband".
My teen daughter was there she directly looked at me being raised by well me as a single mom, with no husband to direct any questions to, she looked at me like???
how does one do a teaching then not be able to answer to it?
I think the notion of feminism is twisted in these groups, i DO think many of the woman are given lip service to be able to serve as long as they still obeyand serve the man ya know on the down low behind closed doors.
see for me feminism is always an inside job, like leadership either one has the ability to be able to make sound chices for their life or they do not. being married has little to do with the power of the female voice.
some of the strongest women I know who have effected change in policy also are married .
confidence is difficult to keep in a marriage that struggles with power plays within itself. KG children are growing up the focus is no longer the kids and family.. mark is getting a education and meeting people and traveling and living a full life.
they didnt offer KG the education did they? and her life is now becoming void of the "house to rule" I believe she has focused on the ministry because she has nothing eles, besides a hubby who is determined to succeeded in many avenues, and allowed to do so where she has not been able to. Also the drama of these men and the ruin of the life they have led has surrounded KG, how sad for her I know John Lynn used her for a shoulder many times and she played the good mom and wife to all of them through John S and John L divorce and marks aspirations.
she may be used up when did KG come first? but make no mistake they allowed her to think she was as imprtant as the rest while they controlled the money where they live and how things really went.
middle age does this to people . it is a transition, she wont leave Mark they have to much pride to do that.
im certain it is difficult to wake up one day and say crap what have i really done but make sure men have succeeded and been ok all my life?
it does cause angry feeling that are deep and profound and with little skill to compete in the world without them it feels like a trap.
so find others who will play the game of denial in misery all the while holding a tight grip on the only life that has been comfortable for you.
the idea of" bloom where your planted" the theme of one of their womans get together and of itself says change is way to dangerous for them.
i have been judged for not being married, by ladies like KG, they do not get me anymore than I get them .
both the single life and being married is one thing , to be a person capable of change and reform and power one must have the confidence from your own self, with or without a hubby to agree or not.
this fact is lacking in CES, because bottom line is these men are control freaks always have been always will be.
The woman attached to them like the power and fame, but the price may be a little to high at times .
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lagates
Here is the way I see it. CES embraced the prophetic movement of CI and took it to far.
About 10 years ago, we were at a Dallas CES meeting. Right in the middle of the meeting, Karen Ann jumped up and yelled, "We are the Jousha generation".
John Lynn replied to us privately that she was a little nutty and off the wall. We all laughed.
Yet later, this so called prophetess is the "voice of the Lord for CES leaders and followers".
Wow, it really is unbelievable that this has happened but not surprising.
I really believe people should stop supporting CES with gifts of money. What do they do to deserve God's peoples monies??? They spend much of their time writing letters to each other. What a joke.
I'm sure the lawyers and accountants who work for CES love their salaries.
And again, one cannot confront the leaders of CES because we are not spiritually mature enough.
Well I say, take the dough away and let these people get back to the Word instead of silly dreams, visions and phony prophetic voices.
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excathedra
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lagates
Yes it probably does. Can we move it?
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sprawled out
this is the crux of it, to me. but i don't know how many would agree with me as to the nature of "the lie." for me, it's all about turning over your freedom of thought. IF you decide to believe the bible (or any other fixed set of rules, standards, etc. that aren't to be questioned), you have relinquished ultimate control of your life. if you do that within the context of an organization, there's bound to be a person or persons happy to take the reins for you. for me, that's the first step down, and it's two-pronged. first, you're admitting you aren't able to be in charge of your own life. and second, you're at least allowing the possibility that maybe someone else should be. (god, via a representative.)
from there, it's not a long way to where JAL has obviously ended up. is the bible true? yes. were there prophets in bible times? yes. has god changed? no. so what if the things a modern-day prophet (or prophetess) says are wacky—aren't there plenty of wacky visions and revelations right there in the bible?
from where i stand, it's just a matter of where you draw the line. some of us here have decided we're not playing at all anymore. some still believe, but with reservations. others believe wholeheartedly, but refuse to give anyone else any control. those who slid from twi straight into a splinter seem to be more likely to swallow ever-bigger whoppers. but why not? they've been suppressing their gag reflex for a long, long time.
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excathedra
i'm finished with cults, mogs, groups, prophecies, humilitation, egos
um lies
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Dot Matrix
Satori said
"I've also read John's letter to Mark and Karen Anne, etc, posted here by one of his little buddies. Forget about prayer and praise, God must truly love a soap opera, if we can judge by His "leadership." What a cast of the most unsympathetic, and pathetic, characters. The Graesers and Resners evoke a level of contempt usually reserved for Wierwille and Martindale - these delusional fruitcakes are grotesquely unqualified to lead anybody anywhere, aren't they? Yet, followed they are."
I agree.
I was speaking with a very loving minister today about a different situation. But it kept reminding me of this whole CES thing.
He said until a person asks for redemption they will be tricked in their own ego. God has to reveal to JAL the man he REALLY is. He has to be face to face with what he has become and what evil he has allowed. Until he is humbly faced with the kind of man he truly is, there will be no change in any ministry he starts. Pride goeth before the fall and a haughty spirit before destruction. Until there is redemption there will just be more prideful decisions... IMO
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therebutforgrace
Satori said...The Graesers and Resners evoke a level of contempt usually reserved for Wierwille and Martindale - these delusional fruitcakes are grotesquely unqualified to lead anybody anywhere, aren't they? Yet, followed they are."
.....Well, hopefully, followed they were.
If enough people simply know what has been exposed here at GS, the word will spread to where other folks will not 'follow' Mark and Karen Anne or Tom and Susan into their next venture, should they choose to begin one, or at least folks will speak up to those who do.
What Dot said of JAL applies to all of the past and present CES BOD/Staff...God has to reveal to [them] the [person each] REALLY is. He has to be face to face with what he has become and what evil he has allowed. Until he is humbly faced with the kind of [person] he truly is, there will be no change in any ministry he starts Pride goeth before the fall and a haughty spirit before destruction. Until there is redemption there will just be more prideful decisions... IMO
.....To which I say...your opinion is God's opinion, so I'm with you both!
Again, the goal is redemption for all involved...and hopefully folks who choose to be friends with any of the CES BOD/Staff will not only pray for that end but also daily call them all to it in word and deed, thus actually leading them, rather than following any of them at all.
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Dot Matrix
Grace
I pictured in prayer for mirrors to surround him - so he can truly see what he is -- He cannot hide in a "bad " marriage to a black widow sneezing woman with maggots.... He cannot hide behind prophesies which are nothing but personal drivel. Or Momentus classes which give a taste of something palatable but has nothing to do with Jesus... Sure the songs are there... A few verses perhaps... But it is a group visit to a shrink... IMO
I picture that everywhere he looks he is faced with another mirror facing him so there is no corner to escape it. Just the truth of who and what he is. When he realizes (if) he doesn't like what he sees then there can be redemption. But so far, I have never seen John even take a minute to reflect... If reflection is needed he just "keeps moving." *** But without true reflection you keep moving further and further away from where you should be.
Kisses to you Grace!
*****Reminds me of 2 Timothy
Chapter 3
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
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tonto
Dot, I know Grace already quoted you on this, but I think it's important enough to repeat again. I just think that twi and its offshoots cultivate unhealthy pride in leaders and followers alike. Thank you for your thoughtful posts.
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GrouchoMarxJr
At this moment in time, a couple of ushers should have taken her by the arms and led her out of the room...once in the hallway, a sock in her mouth might have been appropriate...They could have avoided a lot of trouble had they of caught this in the bud...
...but of course they didn't...no, instead they decided that she was a "prophetess" and started taking her psychotic dreams SERIOUSLY...think about it...what does this say about THEIR grasp of reality? Straight out of twi and all their turmoil and suddenly (drum roll please), a few ex-twi leaders have become the guardian of "God's true ministry"....again...with a few added "embelishments"...primal screaming anyone? (Momentus, formerly known as "Lifespring" and before that "EST")...but that didn't really pan out so...hmmmm, I know, let's make the crazy woman a "prophetess"...
I knew that Mark Graeser was as crazy as a pet racoon...and I knew that JAL "had issues that had issues"...but I'm surprised at Shoenheit...maybe I gave him more credit than he deserved.
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uptown1
I thought I would add something to this discussion.
I spent a few months reading a bunch of different cult books - how they work - that sort of thing.
What I found interesting about E's letter was that almost everything she said was in all of those cult books. It was like I was re-reading my books and not someone's letter.
That left me with the impression that she was the only one involved in this whole thing that seem to know what was really going on. If that's true (and it is) that means all those prophecies are full of cram, which of course means that all of those prophets are working for someone other than God.
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therebutforgrace
Welcome To the Cafe, uptown1!
It's nice to have you join us.
You wrote....all of those prophets are working for someone other than God.
And, sadly, all those in CES leadership and on Staff joined right in with them, and the followers who knew of it hopped on board too.
I hope some CESers are calling the BOD to task on this stuff by now.
Anyone out there contact the Gs, Rs, JAL, Ss, Ts or Gallaghers (who. in my opinion, all share in this disaster)?
Care to share their response?
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Tom Strange
I have to agree with you Grace... it seems that JAL and the Graeser's are "taking all of the heat" here... in my opinion they are all complicit in this...
I can't for the life of me imagine how all of the others (the Rs, the Ss, the Ts, the Galls) could have been on the same board with them and not known or participated in these things... and cannot imagine how any supporter of CES could continue to support a CES that had any of them running it...
But that's just my opinion... It does puzzle me that I haven't heard more about things that the others may have been involved with or condoned, although (again, my opinion) standing by and allowing even the things that have been brought 'to light' thus far is certainly enough to show that they shouldn't be "in charge"...
That's just my opinion mind you... and it's also my opinion that others sharing information would not fall under the realm of "gossip"... I'd think it would fall more accurately under the realm of "information that sheds light upon darkness"...
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1broken1
At this point people need to be absolutely alerted so they can be aware of what they're involved in and supporting - it's not gossip it's a warning. It also goes without saying that people need to know there's an issue so they can be in prayer for resolution, restoration and healing, for the introduction of more light. This kind of junk pops out of an infection that's been festering, which opens a time for healing or a more serious infection.
Also the Berwid's are signed on that clergy report and have been in the middle of the neo-momentus AND marriage seminars. Not sure what fruit those programs are producing after reading through these sad letters. Click here to read about Indy Momentus Version 1.0. It might not be called momentus anymore but they're still doing the Lifeboat excercise.
Can you picture Jesus running this class? If not then that's probably an indicator of whether or not to keep it. 'Ok Judas, punch your pillow and yell at your parents. Now we're going to do the lifeboat excercise.'
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
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uptown1
I have sent two e-mails to CES, but they were not addressed to anyone specifically. I’m not sure who got them or if anyone bothered to read them.
My take on things is a little different from all of the other opinions I’ve heard so far. I’ll try to explain without sounding too nuts.
When you let doctrinal error into a group it doesn’t just sit there all harmless. It spawns practical errors. Eventually, other errors that are based on the first error develop and more practical error results. It just keeps going and going until it has roots. If no one catches this in time…
There is at least one major doctrinal error I am aware of that CES let in the door – feminism. I understand that a lot of women were hurt deeply by the abuse the so-called men in twi inflicted upon them, but trading one error for another isn’t going to work.
This is what nailed Karen Ann (among other things I’m sure). She is CES’s Jezebel. She took out JAL and his wife (I’m not saying he’s innocent). That put Karen Ann’s man in line to be the head of CES. Once there she ruled CES through her husband and kept taking key people out.
I believe it is key to understand that Karen Ann is the ringleader – she is the Jezebel. To fix this she must be removed permanently. Then someone needs to remove the feminism that was let in the door.
What these women did was to couch feminism in Christianity to make it more marketable to believers. But a rose by any other name is still a rose and feminism does what it has always done – destroy the lives of men, women, and children. You cannot find women’s lib in the Bible and believers should not be able to find it at CES either.
As for the big question about a woman’s proper place in the Body of Christ there is a simple answer. If God raises a person up to be a teacher, then they will be a teacher. Anyone who fights against this will be fighting against God and will lose. The gender of the person is unimportant.
Rather than creating some official feminist policy about women in the church we should just let God do his job.
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Kevlar2000
To paraphrase Yoda, The Dark Side clouds Everything! Blind are we, if this evil we could not see!
Adherents and supporters of CES/STFI (as well as of other groups implying their "curve on the truth" is superior to other groups) may wish to consider deeply the points Tom Strange makes in his post, and re-evaluate whether or not they trust anything these folks have to say.
Maybe all the principals in this sad story should have taken a good long vacation from being bible teachers and counselors after their exit from the Way.
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sprawled out
"official feminist policy?" and what would that be?
(i'd like to read it before i start disagreeing with you!)
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GrouchoMarxJr
uptown1...Maybe you could explain what you mean by "feminism"...
Allowing Karen Ann Graeser to spout off her psychotic dreams, intruding into people's lives and causing great harm to them has very little to do with "feminism" as I understand it...the same madness could be perpetrated by a man as well.
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excathedra
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doojable
I'm not so sure that the problem is "feminism" so much as it just happens to be a "feminine person" that has been dishing out the trouble.
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Abigail
Yeah, what upset God is that He looked down into the kitchen and there was not a stew in the oven, and the spice rack was in disarray, and God said "I will smote them!"
to paraphrase Lewis Black
FOUND HERE if you want to hear it all.
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richnchrispy
What I did hear from one friend is that his wife and another woman went to a Women's Conference and came away feeling like they were almost ready to go in the parking lot and burn their bras. Lots of anti-man anger. But then some of it was coming from events with Vic & friends and their motorcoach - and I know that can make a person very very angry if they were subjected to that inexcusable abuse.
Also KAG mentioned encountering the old TWI dominant male clergy attitude and having a hard time being allowed to contribute in the 90's. So I think she pushed back until she was heard. My question for her would be - was she pushing so everyone would have more voice - or so KAG would have more of a say? I think it was more the latter.
I think that this was a small group of women in CES that had this attitude and ongoing struggles, and I am not sure everyone knew their background when they encountered these ladies. So I think some people were left walking away and saying "wow where did that come from?" and they didn't always get a clear answer about the past influences.
But then we also see in all of this the TWI influence of the strong male leader - who likes to talk a lot and doesn't listen near enough. I think this is not across the board, some better, some worse. But overall it is the corporate leader role model which I personally think does not fit with a Jesus led church, and leads to lots of sandbox pushing and shoving. People eventually get frustrated and push back or they leave.
Richard
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pond
feminism?
I recall John Lynn and I will quote said "militant feminism is wrong" , on a tape and my ears perked up as I have been
single lady in twi and ces.
I again didnt have a clue what he was saying in a type of code word, for ears to hear .
I think has been a issue and richard is right on.
KG taught at a fellowship I attended, and when a person (not a regular at the fellowship asked her a question, she said and again I quote "all questions have to be answered by my husband".
My teen daughter was there she directly looked at me being raised by well me as a single mom, with no husband to direct any questions to, she looked at me like???
how does one do a teaching then not be able to answer to it?
I think the notion of feminism is twisted in these groups, i DO think many of the woman are given lip service to be able to serve as long as they still obeyand serve the man ya know on the down low behind closed doors.
see for me feminism is always an inside job, like leadership either one has the ability to be able to make sound chices for their life or they do not. being married has little to do with the power of the female voice.
some of the strongest women I know who have effected change in policy also are married .
confidence is difficult to keep in a marriage that struggles with power plays within itself. KG children are growing up the focus is no longer the kids and family.. mark is getting a education and meeting people and traveling and living a full life.
they didnt offer KG the education did they? and her life is now becoming void of the "house to rule" I believe she has focused on the ministry because she has nothing eles, besides a hubby who is determined to succeeded in many avenues, and allowed to do so where she has not been able to. Also the drama of these men and the ruin of the life they have led has surrounded KG, how sad for her I know John Lynn used her for a shoulder many times and she played the good mom and wife to all of them through John S and John L divorce and marks aspirations.
she may be used up when did KG come first? but make no mistake they allowed her to think she was as imprtant as the rest while they controlled the money where they live and how things really went.
middle age does this to people . it is a transition, she wont leave Mark they have to much pride to do that.
im certain it is difficult to wake up one day and say crap what have i really done but make sure men have succeeded and been ok all my life?
it does cause angry feeling that are deep and profound and with little skill to compete in the world without them it feels like a trap.
so find others who will play the game of denial in misery all the while holding a tight grip on the only life that has been comfortable for you.
the idea of" bloom where your planted" the theme of one of their womans get together and of itself says change is way to dangerous for them.
i have been judged for not being married, by ladies like KG, they do not get me anymore than I get them .
both the single life and being married is one thing , to be a person capable of change and reform and power one must have the confidence from your own self, with or without a hubby to agree or not.
this fact is lacking in CES, because bottom line is these men are control freaks always have been always will be.
The woman attached to them like the power and fame, but the price may be a little to high at times .
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excathedra
good points pond
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