Matthew 7: 21"Not every one that saith unto Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father who is in Heaven.
22Many will say to Me in that Day, `Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils, and in Thy name done many wonderful works?'
23And then will I profess unto them, `I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.'
Doesn't sound like he thought he was saving every human being.
Some will change kicking and screaming but it will happen.
Young's Literal Translation-
21`Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
23and then I will acknowledge to them, that -- I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.
24`Therefore, every one who doth hear of me these words, and doth do them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house upon the rock;
25and the rain did descend, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell not, for it had been founded on the rock.
26`And every one who is hearing of me these words, and is not doing them, shall be likened to a foolish man who built his house upon the sand;
27and the rain did descend, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and its fall was great.'
Amazing what we get when we read something from a new perspective or frame of mind. Does it say what it says or say what we want it to? Who knows, right? We think we do
... or don't.
from the other thread
geo said
And just why is it you assume that seeking God would be a "good" thing? How about just taking what ones got and trying to make sense of it, without any preconceived notions?
SirG said
cuz yep...for thousands of years, all over the world, many have called just that very same sort of question "seeking God"
and many of them have picked up your kind of suggestive question
(which they called things like "seeking God")
and took it far and wide
and even developed forms of art and science around such things
agreed. Like "seeking God." Like "seeking truth." Like "seeking the truth." Like "looking at the facts." Like "just experiencing life." Like "looking at things objectively." Like "looking at things subjectively." Like "your own personal truth." Like "finding fairies." Like "fill in the blank."
All people try and figure out what is going on, has gone on, and will go on in their life and why. We all come to slightly or drastically different conclusions, even though we experience largely the same general challenges and trials, highs and lows. So what does that say?
page 2 SirG said:
to what depth or degree one can understand him [cman]or not is another matter entirely it seems
from my perspective...
there are not only layers and fields and streams and waves of subjectivity
but layers and fields and streams and waves of objectivity
and layers and fields and streams and waves of INTER-objectivity
as well as layers and fields and streams and waves INTER-subjectivity
to reject or otherwise avoid the nature of layers, fields, streams and waves and such in any one of these perspectives
is to close ones self off from the dialogical capacity required to communicate jack sh!t about them
I would agree that there is a required dialogical capacity required to communicate some things about most fields of study and life. On the other hand, I can teach my three year old things about physics and he gets what I am saying. Why? It is how I say it, not what I am talkking about. It is about knowing ones audiance.
There are several reasons why one person might not understand what another is saying or getting at in general.
The most obvious one is that the speaker is speaking in a language that the hearer doesn't understand. Perhaps this is what some of us think, but I'm talking about diffferent languages.
Another would be the teacher/ student model. In this case the teacher is the one who is educated, learned, knowledgeable about a given topic and the student is not. A bad teacher will not be able to communicate the ideas in ways the student can understand even though the vast majority of the time it is possible to do so. A bad student will not put forth the effort to understand. This model is the place most of us assume we are in even if we don't intend to do so. We assume we are a good teacher, educated and knowledgeable, and those that don't understand us are not trying hard enough. They are not listening or are ignoring something, rejecting, closing themselves off, or willfully ignorant. Hence the condescension.
Another reason would be the opposite roles; an unlearned person tryies to convey something they don't know anything or know very little about to someone who does know about the subject, but fails miserably. In this case the speaker may realise they don't know the subject well but is unable to put it into words properly, or the person may think they know what they are talking about and will argue the eduacted person tooth and nail. In this case the ignorant party looks like a fool, because they are.
The last reason would be that both parties or all parties don't know what they are talking about, but one or both of them thinks that they do. This is where I believe we are at with religion and spiritualism as well as other topics. IMO, this is the reality of the teacher-student model when it come to religion and spirituality. Even though I fail at it at times, I try to approach the topic in this way, Socratically.
It is not because I have not saught or do not seek or close things off without consideration. It is what I have come up with after "just taking what one's got and trying to make sense of it" in the age that I live in. If it were the the student-teacher model every good student (pure in heart, seeeking for answers) would understand the dialog presented by the good teacher (you or God or the yougod/megod). We all don't though. We all come to slightly or drastically different conclusions.
Maybe the reason we all don't understand eachother is because we fail to see the similarities. We all want to be right. We all think we are the teachers when we are all the ignorant. We think we are something, when we are nothing. Because of this we fail and refuse to come to a common dialog prehaps because it makes the whole thing all too common.
12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
KJV: 2 Co 3:18
18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
KJV: Jas 1:23
23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
KJV: Re 4:6
6And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
KJV: Re 15:2
2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
KJV: Re 21:18
18And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
KJV: Re 21:21
21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
It's all about the eye and what you see.
Face to face is not something that has to be after death,
as in graveyard type death.
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
We abide in what it says to but face to face is also something that happens.
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
These things also happen now. To depart and be with Christ.
Simply put in order to understand.
It can be compared to meditation and prayer.
No man can see God and live, so one must die to be with Christ.
Not literally, but letting our will and self die to yield to Christ.
Maybe more then you expected, but just a few thoughts.
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cman
And Christ spans all time. Unlimited access for every soul.
Who is going to go against this kind of power and win permanent death?
What is death anyway but a transformation.
Jesus himself said he himself would be destroyed and rebuilt.
Kind of puts the word destroy in a different light.
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cman
Garth,
Who said anything about "punishment" besides you.
As if you know what it means?
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DrtyDzn
As to the punishment of the wages of sin being death or living under the curse goes, seems like there should be some remuneration coming.
Jerry
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cman
Watching and experiencing the old die and the new come alive can be punishment in a way.
The wages of sin is death-good thing-let it die-but the gift and grace are freely given.
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DrtyDzn
Jesus said:
Matthew 7: 21"Not every one that saith unto Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father who is in Heaven.
22Many will say to Me in that Day, `Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils, and in Thy name done many wonderful works?'
23And then will I profess unto them, `I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.'
Doesn't sound like he thought he was saving every human being.
Jerry
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cman
People will change Jerry.
Some will change kicking and screaming but it will happen.
Young's Literal Translation-
21`Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
23and then I will acknowledge to them, that -- I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.
24`Therefore, every one who doth hear of me these words, and doth do them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house upon the rock;
25and the rain did descend, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell not, for it had been founded on the rock.
26`And every one who is hearing of me these words, and is not doing them, shall be likened to a foolish man who built his house upon the sand;
27and the rain did descend, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and its fall was great.'
This is talking about the ever present now imo.
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cman
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Sushi
The wages of sin is death, but with inflation, it's just a tired feeling.
Paula Poundstone
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sprawled out
i asked a similar question a few months back, and the discussion was lively for a bit:
If God is love, who needs Jesus?
not that anyone convinced anyone of anything. just fyi.
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lindyhopper
Amazing what we get when we read something from a new perspective or frame of mind. Does it say what it says or say what we want it to? Who knows, right? We think we do
... or don't.
from the other thread
geo said
SirG saidagreed. Like "seeking God." Like "seeking truth." Like "seeking the truth." Like "looking at the facts." Like "just experiencing life." Like "looking at things objectively." Like "looking at things subjectively." Like "your own personal truth." Like "finding fairies." Like "fill in the blank."
All people try and figure out what is going on, has gone on, and will go on in their life and why. We all come to slightly or drastically different conclusions, even though we experience largely the same general challenges and trials, highs and lows. So what does that say?
page 2 SirG said:
I would agree that there is a required dialogical capacity required to communicate some things about most fields of study and life. On the other hand, I can teach my three year old things about physics and he gets what I am saying. Why? It is how I say it, not what I am talkking about. It is about knowing ones audiance.
There are several reasons why one person might not understand what another is saying or getting at in general.
The most obvious one is that the speaker is speaking in a language that the hearer doesn't understand. Perhaps this is what some of us think, but I'm talking about diffferent languages.
Another would be the teacher/ student model. In this case the teacher is the one who is educated, learned, knowledgeable about a given topic and the student is not. A bad teacher will not be able to communicate the ideas in ways the student can understand even though the vast majority of the time it is possible to do so. A bad student will not put forth the effort to understand. This model is the place most of us assume we are in even if we don't intend to do so. We assume we are a good teacher, educated and knowledgeable, and those that don't understand us are not trying hard enough. They are not listening or are ignoring something, rejecting, closing themselves off, or willfully ignorant. Hence the condescension.
Another reason would be the opposite roles; an unlearned person tryies to convey something they don't know anything or know very little about to someone who does know about the subject, but fails miserably. In this case the speaker may realise they don't know the subject well but is unable to put it into words properly, or the person may think they know what they are talking about and will argue the eduacted person tooth and nail. In this case the ignorant party looks like a fool, because they are.
The last reason would be that both parties or all parties don't know what they are talking about, but one or both of them thinks that they do. This is where I believe we are at with religion and spiritualism as well as other topics. IMO, this is the reality of the teacher-student model when it come to religion and spirituality. Even though I fail at it at times, I try to approach the topic in this way, Socratically.
It is not because I have not saught or do not seek or close things off without consideration. It is what I have come up with after "just taking what one's got and trying to make sense of it" in the age that I live in. If it were the the student-teacher model every good student (pure in heart, seeeking for answers) would understand the dialog presented by the good teacher (you or God or the yougod/megod). We all don't though. We all come to slightly or drastically different conclusions.
Maybe the reason we all don't understand eachother is because we fail to see the similarities. We all want to be right. We all think we are the teachers when we are all the ignorant. We think we are something, when we are nothing. Because of this we fail and refuse to come to a common dialog prehaps because it makes the whole thing all too common.
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cman
Yes Lindy-a perspective among many perspectives.
I don't launch into a frenzy over one but consider and know of more.
Which brightens and focus' the bigger picture.
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cman
Belle,
KJV: 1 Co 13:12
12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
KJV: 2 Co 3:18
18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
KJV: Jas 1:23
23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
KJV: Re 4:6
6And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
KJV: Re 15:2
2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
KJV: Re 21:18
18And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
KJV: Re 21:21
21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
It's all about the eye and what you see.
Face to face is not something that has to be after death,
as in graveyard type death.
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
We abide in what it says to but face to face is also something that happens.
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
These things also happen now. To depart and be with Christ.
Simply put in order to understand.
It can be compared to meditation and prayer.
No man can see God and live, so one must die to be with Christ.
Not literally, but letting our will and self die to yield to Christ.
Maybe more then you expected, but just a few thoughts.
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