Good point Mark O. Why bother, ..... particularly when there is NO good reason to do so whatsoever, particularly when it comes to attacking all others, since that is based on no better reason than that the others differ from said belief. Ie., 'heresy'.
The condemnation and curse exist because of the disobedience of Adam & Eve, who were deceived by the devil, whom God created! It's crazy & circular. I cannot look in the face of an infant, or a small child, & see cursedness.
The condemnation and curse exist because of the disobedience of Adam & Eve, who were deceived by the devil, whom God created! It's crazy & circular. I cannot look in the face of an infant, or a small child, & see cursedness.
I don't see it as circular. I think the reasoning comes to the conclusion that God can look at the face of an infant and condemn it for something He made that way to begin with. Now that's a crazy conclusion. That God would not like what he has done.
The condemnation and curse are done away with, even in the old testament it was an illusion unchecked. Just as it is today for those who still live under the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the heart.
Jesus exposed it, the curse the devil, for what it is and it died with him.
Still it takes some learning of the letter for some in order to progress from carnal to spiritual.
And that letter is more then the bible.
Be a damn shame if one had to know the friggin bible to know God.
"Born into a religion and being fed irrationality gradually, in small doses, leads billions of normal people to take for granted baskets full of absurd notions. They can attest to the Trinity and transubstantiation as easily as to the rising of the sun. But cram the inanities of other religions into a few weeks of lessons and even a child will see that one's own religion isn't any different."
So there is no longer a curse that we are born under? All of us since Christ were born curse-free? I thought that was the whole reason we needed a savior. I thought that was why we had to make that big, all-encompassing decision of whether to accept Christ as our savior or not.
Also, I don't think that it's that God didn't like what he had made or done. I have a problem with that blanketing of sin that we "got" because Eve & Adam screwed up.
If Adam didn't do what he did then Jesus couldn't have brought to perfection as he did.
In the day that you eat you shall surely die.
You will become like gods knowing good and evil.
The first Adam gave his life to save ours.
Jesus finished the work.
For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Had Adam not done what he did we would not have righteousness.
Why do you think the first and last Adam are compared so much?
Clay, I have never viewed it from quite that perspective before. I think it is a very interesting and cool way to see those verses/concepts. What I am wondering though, is if it took Adam to get the ball rolling and Jesus to complete it, what happens to all those people who lived and died in the interim? Are they "saved" because they looked for the coming Messiah, then?
The condemnation and curse are done away with, even in the old testament it was an illusion unchecked. Just as it is today for those who still live under the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the heart.
Jesus exposed it, the curse the devil, for what it is and it died with him.
Still it takes some learning of the letter for some in order to progress from carnal to spiritual.
And that letter is more then the bible.
Be a damn shame if one had to know the friggin bible to know God.
Has he limited himself to books?
Can he not teach Himself to us?
Where are we looking for this God to answer us?
Exactly!
How do THEY answer to the fact that there are many scrolls and records that were left out of the Bible for political and personal agenda reasons? I mean, if one is going to go by "the book", shouldn't they have the whole book and not just pieces parts of it?
19For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
So it's been a set-up from the very start; some win, some lose. I've never liked the idea of many being made sinners bec. of someone else's mistake - it's kind of like everyone getting lunch detention bec. one kid was talking. However, I just now connected the idea that the converse of this is that we all got a free pass bec. one person obeyed. That's not new knowledge to me; it's that it says "many were made sinners", and we know that means all were made sinners. So it seems "shall many be made righteous" would also mean all.
So maybe some don't lose after all? Being made a sinner wasn't conditional; we were just stuck with it. So being made righteous shouldn't be conditional, either.
So maybe some don't lose after all? Being made a sinner wasn't conditional; we were just stuck with it. So being made righteous shouldn't be conditional, either.
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markomalley
I was going to post something a couple days ago about some theists having this inane need to defend their beliefs and attack all others.
But then I changed my mind...why bother...
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GarthP2000
Good point Mark O. Why bother, ..... particularly when there is NO good reason to do so whatsoever, particularly when it comes to attacking all others, since that is based on no better reason than that the others differ from said belief. Ie., 'heresy'.
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DrtyDzn
Why did you bother to post? To attack other peoples' inane needs. Hope it made you feel superior.
Jerry
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GarthP2000
?? Who was that addressed to DrtyDzn?
:unsure:
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Free Soul
The condemnation and curse exist because of the disobedience of Adam & Eve, who were deceived by the devil, whom God created! It's crazy & circular. I cannot look in the face of an infant, or a small child, & see cursedness.
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cman
Now your getting it Free Soul.
Just takes a little sense to put some things together.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning....
What beginning?
Yours.
1 John 1
This is the light that is spoken of.
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DrtyDzn
Jerry
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GarthP2000
Many of us wouldn't like it either. <_<
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cman
The condemnation and curse are done away with, even in the old testament it was an illusion unchecked. Just as it is today for those who still live under the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the heart.
Jesus exposed it, the curse the devil, for what it is and it died with him.
Still it takes some learning of the letter for some in order to progress from carnal to spiritual.
And that letter is more then the bible.
Be a damn shame if one had to know the friggin bible to know God.
Has he limited himself to books?
Can he not teach Himself to us?
Where are we looking for this God to answer us?
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cman
Back to the letter i suppose.....
So who in hell did he become?
And don't bother me with no curse cause it's done with.
You can have it. Or not. Not me.
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George Aar
I was perusing the "Skeptic's Dictionary" site and found this little blurb,
I found it refreshing, YMMV:
http://skepdic.com/refuge/funk54.html
Of particular note was this line:
"Born into a religion and being fed irrationality gradually, in small doses, leads billions of normal people to take for granted baskets full of absurd notions. They can attest to the Trinity and transubstantiation as easily as to the rising of the sun. But cram the inanities of other religions into a few weeks of lessons and even a child will see that one's own religion isn't any different."
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Free Soul
So there is no longer a curse that we are born under? All of us since Christ were born curse-free? I thought that was the whole reason we needed a savior. I thought that was why we had to make that big, all-encompassing decision of whether to accept Christ as our savior or not.
Also, I don't think that it's that God didn't like what he had made or done. I have a problem with that blanketing of sin that we "got" because Eve & Adam screwed up.
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cman
Christ has always been the Savior.
The last Adam underestimated. The first is underestimated also.
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GarthP2000
I think that we are all born ..... human.
Period.
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Free Soul
:blink: Sorry, but I don't get this at all.
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cman
If Adam didn't do what he did then Jesus couldn't have brought to perfection as he did.
In the day that you eat you shall surely die.
You will become like gods knowing good and evil.
The first Adam gave his life to save ours.
Jesus finished the work.
For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Had Adam not done what he did we would not have righteousness.
Why do you think the first and last Adam are compared so much?
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Belle
or, there was no "curse" to begin with.
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Abigail
Clay, I have never viewed it from quite that perspective before. I think it is a very interesting and cool way to see those verses/concepts. What I am wondering though, is if it took Adam to get the ball rolling and Jesus to complete it, what happens to all those people who lived and died in the interim? Are they "saved" because they looked for the coming Messiah, then?
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Belle
Exactly!
How do THEY answer to the fact that there are many scrolls and records that were left out of the Bible for political and personal agenda reasons? I mean, if one is going to go by "the book", shouldn't they have the whole book and not just pieces parts of it?
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Free Soul
So it's been a set-up from the very start; some win, some lose. I've never liked the idea of many being made sinners bec. of someone else's mistake - it's kind of like everyone getting lunch detention bec. one kid was talking. However, I just now connected the idea that the converse of this is that we all got a free pass bec. one person obeyed. That's not new knowledge to me; it's that it says "many were made sinners", and we know that means all were made sinners. So it seems "shall many be made righteous" would also mean all.
So maybe some don't lose after all? Being made a sinner wasn't conditional; we were just stuck with it. So being made righteous shouldn't be conditional, either.
Whoa, my brain hurts
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cman
All win one way or another.
No one is left out of salvation.
Some want it now.
Some see it now.
Some will see it after they die.
hmmmm die....two ways or more to see that....
It's a lot to think about and i can post more,
but gotta get some sleep.
Peace
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DrtyDzn
Justification.
Jerry
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GarthP2000
Jerry,
It sounds like justice to you that we all get the punishment for one man's sin?
Or is it one of those "Cuz God says so" type of 'reasoning' ((gag)) that supposedly makes it so?
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sirguessalot
"We shall not cease from exploration.
And the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started
and know the place for the first time."
T. S. Eliot
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