Why God, having foreknowledge and no darkness in him at all, would create Lucifer to begin with, knowing full well that Lucifer would rebel and fall from grace, and wreak havoc on the human race from that point on.
Why God, having foreknowledge and no darkness in him at all, would create Lucifer to begin with, knowing full well that Lucifer would rebel and fall from grace, and wreak havoc on the human race from that point on.
Was it worth it? I think not.
Yet, wouldn't God be a monster if we had no choice between good and evil, light and dark? Where would we take ownership for our actions and decisions? And why would we need a savior? (We wouldn't, of course.)
I'm afraid we may be derailing Nandon's intended thread here. This question has bothered me for years, & it's not about good/evil, light/dark, or being accountable. I've been told that evil must exist in order to know & appreciate good.
What a load of crap.
I want to know why we are here AT ALL, when our existence was & is not mandatory. What is the f***ing point of putting humans through all this pain, grief, death? So God could have a family???? How sweet. Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather just not have existed at all. And it's not like my life is so horrible; I think about what's going on in Darfur with children being snatched from their mothers & killed, or even just thinking about any kid here in America that's getting beaten bloody by a parent, living in fear, & growing up to continue the cycle. God knew these atrocities were going to happen. He knew!!!! But he created Lucifer anyway. He created us anyway.
Oh, but the glories of Heaven will be soooo worth it! Really? What kind of sicko dangles a carrot like that? "Here, I'm going to allow you to experience all kinds of s**t while you're alive, & if you got "born again" somewhere in there, you get to come to heaven & fly around & tell Me how great I am for eternity!! Woo Hoo!!" Of course, that's supposing the bible is correct. But what if it isn't & we arrogant Americans have it all wrong?
I don't trust him, I don't trust anybody, & I'm tired of the sugar-coated spin that is religion. Nobody has answers, but every group thinks they're right. The bottom line for me is, even my most sublime, sweetest moments in this life are not worth the pain & horrors that happen every moment.
Therin lies the conundrum. If you 'desired' a family but to have 4 beautiful children that you loved to bits (and vice versa) you 'knew' there would be two that would be real 'ratbags' would you still go ahead and have the children ?? Some say YES, others like youself say NO. Personally I'm glad you're not God !
I'm glad I exist, with a promise of eternity with my parents and children and grandchildren to come.
I'm glad I have lived to feel what real love is like.
I am sad for the Jehovah rejecting nations and it's children that go through so much sorrow and grief so much, but even for them their 'affliction' is but for a moment, compared to eternity.
Religions (especially the Abrahamic based ones of Judaism, Christianity, Islam) can't answer:
Why they can't prove that their deity is consistently real, or that their 'spiritual things' can't be viably proven, ... and yet they expect their beliefs to be accepted, sometimes on nothing more than faith, and even w/o question, as if it is the most important thing in the world to do, and if the follower does not, then he/she is committing a grave immoral act.
For those who possess little to no sense of humor, please do NOT watch the posted video. It contains absolutely filthy language, refers to evolution, and why Christians shouldn't interpret the Old Testament. That being said, for your consideration...........
they expect their beliefs to be accepted, sometimes on nothing more than faith, and even w/o question, as if it is the most important thing in the world to do, and if the follower does not, then he/she is committing a grave immoral act.
You're filling in a lot blanks that aren't there and then, as usual, painting with your extra-wide EEEE size brush.
1. I don't expect my beliefs to be acceptd by anybody on any otehr basis than faith.
2. Most mainstream Christian beliefs maintain that faith cannot be conjured up, wished, demanded, etc. Quit painting them with your own misconceptions and angst/ambivalence.
Sushi, thanks for the laugh - & yes I do laugh, mostly when my precious grandson does something hilarious, which is often. He can say the most innocent, crazy things!
Allan, the only reason the 2 children would be "ratbags" is bec. they became that way, not bec. they were born that way. Either the world messes them up, which is Lucifer's doing, or it's bec. of that nasty sin nature, also due to Lucifer. Either way, his existence is what brought about their "ratbagginess", so to speak.
And another thought, to piggyback on Garth's post: if we do not believe & follow to the letter, not only is it a grave immoral act (his words), but we will also go to (gasp) - HELL!
Nothing like free choice, esp. in a do or die set-up like that.
I've realized that the more I think I know, the less I know. I no longer "know that I know that I know", in fact, I didn't then, since it was cult full of holes anyway. So I've let go of the idea that God makes sense, or that he's interested in my life. And that is what "THEY" can't answer - why does the God who supposedly loves us not protect us, or warn us, or nudge us, away from harm? He does NOTHING, & we attribute it to free choice.
Religion lost its hold on me some time ago. I dunno, the more you "dig" or research, or whatever you like to call it, the LESS sense any of it makes.
I finally realized that there's no difference between religion and any other garden variety superstition. "Step on a crack and break your mother's back" or "In the name of Jesus Christ, rise up and walk", is there really any significant difference?
Most mainstream Christian beliefs maintain that faith cannot be conjured up, wished, demanded, etc.
Really? What else do you call Young Earth Creationism, presuppositionalism, and "we walk by faith, not by sight" based concepts? And these are but a small set of examples I can show you of what I'm talking about.
Not to mention that when someone demands proof that somebody's gospel is real and viable, they often get written off (and often derided) as unbelievers, kinda like TWI writes off those who grew a brain and walked away from their song-and-dance.
The very concept of faith demands that you believe first (and that is many times based on an appeal to obedience), then (maybe, ... if ever) you see. At least that was what I heard in the various churches I been to and many believers that I have talked to, many of which are quite orthodox. And if you don't see, and especially if you make that part known to the believers, you're told a whole bunch of excuses/accusations of "who are you to question God!"/"its one of those spiritual things you cannot understand"/yadayada in order to take the attention away from the discrepancy that was brought to their attention, ... and hopefully to shut the dissenter up.
No doubt that a lot of churches have different varieties of this crap, and there are even churches that aren't so much into this, and even focus more on helping people as more or less the mainstay of their gospel (Good for them).
But when it comes down to the final answer, it still comes down to "have faith in what God says (ie., what we teach), despite what the evidence says otherwise, and if you don't, you are going to answer to God", and that kind of religion usually doesn't give a nice, rosy result as what happens to the critic/heretic/blasphemer/infidel.
In Lewis Black's video, he utters this line of "I would love to have the faith ..., but I have thoughts. And that can really f*** up the faith thing. Just ask any Catholic priest." Classic Lewis Black, just classic! And I think that line has merit (w/o the Catholic priest part, of course ). There are many of us who 'have thoughts' (as I am sure you do too), and a good number of us have those that go beyond the boundaries that faith sets up and determines. Many religious people will not go beyond, or go very far beyond, those boundaries. I used to be one of those people. They're kinda like the Samwise Gangee character (in the Lord of the Rings flick) who gets to "the farthest I have ever gone from the Shire" (remember that scene?) and are afraid to go any farther. Well, I have walked well past that point, so to speak, ... and haven't looked back.
And the answer that I originally referred to is still yet to be given. <_<
What a shame yo'all have never hung around with differn't committed christians for a period of time and seen some real signs, miracles and wonders for yourself !
I personally have had God warn, talk and show me on three differn't occasions over the years that actually SAVED a couple of my childrens lives. People I 'hang with' have had similar experiences. My dad has and my mom also.
Somehow I suspect we are not the only ones !!
I'm sure when the ears are 'open' and the 'mind' receptive people will hear the voice of God.
I'm thankful I was 'taught' many years ago not to dismiss 'first' thoughts as they are 'often' spiritual ones and the next one carnal !
"The very concept of faith demands that you believe first (and that is many times based on an appeal to obedience), then (maybe, ... if ever) you see."
Right.
Then why are you demanding proof?
Appeal to obedience? Example, please. Is it compelled? Example please.
Why am I demanding proof? Or logical validation? Because the concept of faith excludes it as a means of determining whether something 'spiritual' is true. That's why its referred to as 'faith', ie., "take it on faith, brother". See?
Examples of the appeal to obedience? Look throughout the entire bible, pal. Starting with the Adam and Eve example, they lost paradise (and the whole of humanity was 'lost' due to this) because they disobeyed God. As it is spelled out in Romans. "Due to one man's disobedience, many were made sinners, ..." etc. And the trail of examples goes from there. And obedience is compelled via these examples. ... But you already know this, don't you?
Open questioning, scrutiny, analysis, and dissent breaks away from this appeal to obedience. That was one of the things that marked the Enlightenment period and the times following, and one of the things that church leaders and religious believers had to face and deal with.
Exactly! "They" cannot answer questions definitively - only God himself can. If something is not already addressed in scripture, then one can certainly go to God and ask for help with whatever is the stumbling point. Suppose, though, that one has already done this, many times, on one's knees with tears and humility, and still no answer at all. So discouraging. Even my grandson knows he can run to grandma with anything & receive love, answers, comfort, whatever. But I'm not greater than God - hardly! So why can't he make sense of himself? I think it's asking too much to just have faith in something that makes no sense.
THEY can and will answer anything. It may not make sense, but isn't that the point really?
God will answer you if you ask, but only if you are humble, sincere, meek, quiet, still, honest, at peace, in pieces, or whirling your peas in the right fashion at the right time of day, fill in the blank________. If you don't hear, it is because of YOU, not because He,She,It is not there.
You don't know how to listen or you don't know how to ask nicely. You are supposed to say pretty please with shugga on top, in the name of Yankee Doodle Dandy.
Of course, that is the answer, because... that is the answer, because... there is a God.
That is the answer, even if some of us have asked and looked and listened and did all of the above (except maybe the pea thing, have to try that later) with a pure and honest heart and still heard no still small voice or saw a blinding light or burning bush from the all knowing, all powerful, all loving, God of gods, the one true God.
There have been times when my door mat was partially wet with dew and partially not, but it was usually due to the newspaper laying on it.
Or you have to take the Bible rip it all to pieces and put it back together agian and then throw it into some tea to realise that the God we always wanted is right there in us already. All you have to do is stop wanting and start believing, stop thinking and start seeing.
See, you must have eyes to see what can't be seen and ears to hear what can't be heard.
It is a paradoxical enigma
wrapped in a conundrum
wrapped in a riddle
wrapped in a wonton
Embrace the eggroll.
You don't know what is inside,
but it is all goodness.
Tastey, Godly, soy goodness...
and cabbage.
So don't ask the questions because they are already answered for those that have eyes to see and a screen to read.
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Free Soul
"They" being ALL of the above cannot answer.....
Why God, having foreknowledge and no darkness in him at all, would create Lucifer to begin with, knowing full well that Lucifer would rebel and fall from grace, and wreak havoc on the human race from that point on.
Was it worth it? I think not.
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ChasUFarley
FS - Interesting thread...
You say:
Why God, having foreknowledge and no darkness in him at all, would create Lucifer to begin with, knowing full well that Lucifer would rebel and fall from grace, and wreak havoc on the human race from that point on.
Was it worth it? I think not.
Yet, wouldn't God be a monster if we had no choice between good and evil, light and dark? Where would we take ownership for our actions and decisions? And why would we need a savior? (We wouldn't, of course.)
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Free Soul
I'm afraid we may be derailing Nandon's intended thread here. This question has bothered me for years, & it's not about good/evil, light/dark, or being accountable. I've been told that evil must exist in order to know & appreciate good.
What a load of crap.
I want to know why we are here AT ALL, when our existence was & is not mandatory. What is the f***ing point of putting humans through all this pain, grief, death? So God could have a family???? How sweet. Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather just not have existed at all. And it's not like my life is so horrible; I think about what's going on in Darfur with children being snatched from their mothers & killed, or even just thinking about any kid here in America that's getting beaten bloody by a parent, living in fear, & growing up to continue the cycle. God knew these atrocities were going to happen. He knew!!!! But he created Lucifer anyway. He created us anyway.
Oh, but the glories of Heaven will be soooo worth it! Really? What kind of sicko dangles a carrot like that? "Here, I'm going to allow you to experience all kinds of s**t while you're alive, & if you got "born again" somewhere in there, you get to come to heaven & fly around & tell Me how great I am for eternity!! Woo Hoo!!" Of course, that's supposing the bible is correct. But what if it isn't & we arrogant Americans have it all wrong?
I don't trust him, I don't trust anybody, & I'm tired of the sugar-coated spin that is religion. Nobody has answers, but every group thinks they're right. The bottom line for me is, even my most sublime, sweetest moments in this life are not worth the pain & horrors that happen every moment.
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allan w.
Therin lies the conundrum. If you 'desired' a family but to have 4 beautiful children that you loved to bits (and vice versa) you 'knew' there would be two that would be real 'ratbags' would you still go ahead and have the children ?? Some say YES, others like youself say NO. Personally I'm glad you're not God !
I'm glad I exist, with a promise of eternity with my parents and children and grandchildren to come.
I'm glad I have lived to feel what real love is like.
I am sad for the Jehovah rejecting nations and it's children that go through so much sorrow and grief so much, but even for them their 'affliction' is but for a moment, compared to eternity.
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GarthP2000
Religions (especially the Abrahamic based ones of Judaism, Christianity, Islam) can't answer:
Why they can't prove that their deity is consistently real, or that their 'spiritual things' can't be viably proven, ... and yet they expect their beliefs to be accepted, sometimes on nothing more than faith, and even w/o question, as if it is the most important thing in the world to do, and if the follower does not, then he/she is committing a grave immoral act.
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Sushi
Sounds to me, FreeSoul, you could use a laugh.
WARNING, WARNING, WILL ROBINSON
For those who possess little to no sense of humor, please do NOT watch the posted video. It contains absolutely filthy language, refers to evolution, and why Christians shouldn't interpret the Old Testament. That being said, for your consideration...........
HERE!
:blink:
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Sushi
For those who were able to get through the first part, now comes,
Part II
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TheEvan
You're filling in a lot blanks that aren't there and then, as usual, painting with your extra-wide EEEE size brush.
1. I don't expect my beliefs to be acceptd by anybody on any otehr basis than faith.
2. Most mainstream Christian beliefs maintain that faith cannot be conjured up, wished, demanded, etc. Quit painting them with your own misconceptions and angst/ambivalence.
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Free Soul
Garth, I get you, man.
Sushi, thanks for the laugh - & yes I do laugh, mostly when my precious grandson does something hilarious, which is often. He can say the most innocent, crazy things!
Allan, the only reason the 2 children would be "ratbags" is bec. they became that way, not bec. they were born that way. Either the world messes them up, which is Lucifer's doing, or it's bec. of that nasty sin nature, also due to Lucifer. Either way, his existence is what brought about their "ratbagginess", so to speak.
So we're screwed either way.
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Free Soul
And another thought, to piggyback on Garth's post: if we do not believe & follow to the letter, not only is it a grave immoral act (his words), but we will also go to (gasp) - HELL!
Nothing like free choice, esp. in a do or die set-up like that.
I've realized that the more I think I know, the less I know. I no longer "know that I know that I know", in fact, I didn't then, since it was cult full of holes anyway. So I've let go of the idea that God makes sense, or that he's interested in my life. And that is what "THEY" can't answer - why does the God who supposedly loves us not protect us, or warn us, or nudge us, away from harm? He does NOTHING, & we attribute it to free choice.
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George Aar
Religion lost its hold on me some time ago. I dunno, the more you "dig" or research, or whatever you like to call it, the LESS sense any of it makes.
I finally realized that there's no difference between religion and any other garden variety superstition. "Step on a crack and break your mother's back" or "In the name of Jesus Christ, rise up and walk", is there really any significant difference?
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GarthP2000
Really? What else do you call Young Earth Creationism, presuppositionalism, and "we walk by faith, not by sight" based concepts? And these are but a small set of examples I can show you of what I'm talking about.
Not to mention that when someone demands proof that somebody's gospel is real and viable, they often get written off (and often derided) as unbelievers, kinda like TWI writes off those who grew a brain and walked away from their song-and-dance.
The very concept of faith demands that you believe first (and that is many times based on an appeal to obedience), then (maybe, ... if ever) you see. At least that was what I heard in the various churches I been to and many believers that I have talked to, many of which are quite orthodox. And if you don't see, and especially if you make that part known to the believers, you're told a whole bunch of excuses/accusations of "who are you to question God!"/"its one of those spiritual things you cannot understand"/yadayada in order to take the attention away from the discrepancy that was brought to their attention, ... and hopefully to shut the dissenter up.
No doubt that a lot of churches have different varieties of this crap, and there are even churches that aren't so much into this, and even focus more on helping people as more or less the mainstay of their gospel (Good for them).
But when it comes down to the final answer, it still comes down to "have faith in what God says (ie., what we teach), despite what the evidence says otherwise, and if you don't, you are going to answer to God", and that kind of religion usually doesn't give a nice, rosy result as what happens to the critic/heretic/blasphemer/infidel.
In Lewis Black's video, he utters this line of "I would love to have the faith ..., but I have thoughts. And that can really f*** up the faith thing. Just ask any Catholic priest."
Classic Lewis Black, just classic! And I think that line has merit (w/o the Catholic priest part, of course 
). There are many of us who 'have thoughts' (as I am sure you do too), and a good number of us have those that go beyond the boundaries that faith sets up and determines. Many religious people will not go beyond, or go very far beyond, those boundaries. I used to be one of those people. They're kinda like the Samwise Gangee character (in the Lord of the Rings flick) who gets to "the farthest I have ever gone from the Shire" (remember that scene?) and are afraid to go any farther. Well, I have walked well past that point, so to speak, ... and haven't looked back.
And the answer that I originally referred to is still yet to be given. <_<
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allan w.
What a shame yo'all have never hung around with differn't committed christians for a period of time and seen some real signs, miracles and wonders for yourself !
I personally have had God warn, talk and show me on three differn't occasions over the years that actually SAVED a couple of my childrens lives. People I 'hang with' have had similar experiences. My dad has and my mom also.
Somehow I suspect we are not the only ones !!
I'm sure when the ears are 'open' and the 'mind' receptive people will hear the voice of God.
I'm thankful I was 'taught' many years ago not to dismiss 'first' thoughts as they are 'often' spiritual ones and the next one carnal !
Anyways...have a terrific new year !!
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TheEvan
"The very concept of faith demands that you believe first (and that is many times based on an appeal to obedience), then (maybe, ... if ever) you see."
Right.
Then why are you demanding proof?
Appeal to obedience? Example, please. Is it compelled? Example please.
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GarthP2000
Evan, you're getting slow at this.
Why am I demanding proof? Or logical validation? Because the concept of faith excludes it as a means of determining whether something 'spiritual' is true. That's why its referred to as 'faith', ie., "take it on faith, brother". See?
Examples of the appeal to obedience? Look throughout the entire bible, pal. Starting with the Adam and Eve example, they lost paradise (and the whole of humanity was 'lost' due to this) because they disobeyed God. As it is spelled out in Romans. "Due to one man's disobedience, many were made sinners, ..." etc. And the trail of examples goes from there. And obedience is compelled via these examples. ... But you already know this, don't you?
Open questioning, scrutiny, analysis, and dissent breaks away from this appeal to obedience. That was one of the things that marked the Enlightenment period and the times following, and one of the things that church leaders and religious believers had to face and deal with.
Anything else?
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sirguessalot
oh dang...i have been posting on the wrong thread
sorry
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sirguessalot
oh dang...i have been posting on the wrong thread
sorry
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cman
I'm going to take this as questions about God.
Yeah, ha, 'they' are not God.
So 'they' can't answer any question about God.
God can and does answer to the one asking God.
People can only suggest or direct.
And also people do speak being moved by the Holy Spirit even today.
This is to stir up that which is within, and the answers will still come from there.
When one stops looking to people for answers and choose God and ask.
The answers will come. If one has the humbleness to receive it.
So be careful about what you ask for, you will get it.
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Free Soul
Exactly! "They" cannot answer questions definitively - only God himself can. If something is not already addressed in scripture, then one can certainly go to God and ask for help with whatever is the stumbling point. Suppose, though, that one has already done this, many times, on one's knees with tears and humility, and still no answer at all. So discouraging. Even my grandson knows he can run to grandma with anything & receive love, answers, comfort, whatever. But I'm not greater than God - hardly! So why can't he make sense of himself? I think it's asking too much to just have faith in something that makes no sense.
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cman
When it makes sense, you'll know it.
This is what faith is in.
That which has been shown to you by God.
And it will most likely be senseless at first,
or even a bit startling.
If you are not getting answers,
review the question and review what you are expecting.
Cause it won't be what you expect, but it will be right for you.
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lindyhopper
Correction on the premise.
THEY can and will answer anything. It may not make sense, but isn't that the point really?
God will answer you if you ask, but only if you are humble, sincere, meek, quiet, still, honest, at peace, in pieces, or whirling your peas in the right fashion at the right time of day, fill in the blank________. If you don't hear, it is because of YOU, not because He,She,It is not there.
You don't know how to listen or you don't know how to ask nicely. You are supposed to say pretty please with shugga on top, in the name of Yankee Doodle Dandy.
Of course, that is the answer, because... that is the answer, because... there is a God.
That is the answer, even if some of us have asked and looked and listened and did all of the above (except maybe the pea thing, have to try that later) with a pure and honest heart and still heard no still small voice or saw a blinding light or burning bush from the all knowing, all powerful, all loving, God of gods, the one true God.
There have been times when my door mat was partially wet with dew and partially not, but it was usually due to the newspaper laying on it.
Or you have to take the Bible rip it all to pieces and put it back together agian and then throw it into some tea to realise that the God we always wanted is right there in us already. All you have to do is stop wanting and start believing, stop thinking and start seeing.
See, you must have eyes to see what can't be seen and ears to hear what can't be heard.
It is a paradoxical enigma
wrapped in a conundrum
wrapped in a riddle
wrapped in a wonton
Embrace the eggroll.
You don't know what is inside,
but it is all goodness.
Tastey, Godly, soy goodness...
and cabbage.
So don't ask the questions because they are already answered for those that have eyes to see and a screen to read.
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lindyhopper
Hee hee
I said, She,It.
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cman
humbleness or meekness to me just means that i know i don't know and asking from that kind of heart from the heart
not asking to lord it over anyone or asking just to know something i think someone else doesn't know
and ready to change my thinking should that be required and it usually is
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Free Soul
So belief in God & the bible isn't about getting answers
It's about resignation
and being able to talk all around a topic while not being helpful at all
and the other person feeling deficient in the face of such spirituality
Sounds like TWI-101 to me.
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