I would guess that he would rather spend what time he has in helping those that he feels have a desire to be helped rather than arguing with those that have no desire to be a part of what he has to offer, and don't care to know the facts before they run their mouth like they are some sort of authority on his life.
Like he helped his wife?
First you isolated a part of a sentence and then did so out of the context of my reply . It had nothing to do with his Exwife. If you want to take a shot at John do so on your own without twisting my words! For the record I believe that John should have supported his wife also from what I have read, but I also may not know the whole story.
It is pretty common that people want to put forth their limited time and energy into something that they feel will be of benefit, most don't look for things that they feel will be a waste of their time. Also most won't go where they feel that all they will get is flack and hang out, I doubt you would either? which as you know I'm sure was my point. Excluding the percent of non christian who used to be and no longer wish to be, and the percent that no longer want anything to do with any offshoots. That does not leave John much to work with left I'd say.
Which prompted my conclusion that I would guess that he would rather spend what time he has in helping those that he feels have a desire to be helped rather than arguing with those that have no desire to be a part of what he has to offer, and don't care to know the facts before they run their mouth like they are some sort of authority on his life.
This 3rd thread which you are reading now began only yesterday, 12-26, when John L. sent his letter out to people interested in CES and it was posted here for anyone else to read. This 3rd thread, in my frank opinion, could lead you to decide we are gossipers who could 'take you out' and that you should therefore return to CES-dom at once.
And no one on this thread would want to be the cause of that!
No, we wouldn't want to be the cause of that...
OR
Maybe someone from CES/STFI will cruise by this thread #3, see "B.S." being called on JAL AND THE BOARD and maybe they'll agree. I'm trying to stay away from slinging any mud... I called for REPENTANCE, HONESTY and HUMILITY... they (JAL and THE BOARD) owe their followers that.
Haven't seen any from them yet... just posturing. I don't feel that's gossiping, that's standing up in the room and calling B.S. on the guy at the podium.
This is a letter (position paper) from John Lynn....
...It is going to the Spirit & Truth Fellowship Board of Directors, the STF Staff, and others who have inquired of me, or who I have spoken with, or who I think should now be aware of what has been going on for the past 7 months in STF....
...As I begin this letter, my heart is weeping about the current state of affairs among the members of the Spirit and Truth Fellowship International Board of Directors, each of whom is one of my closest friends.
What you will read is my best assessment of many conversations with the principals involved and/or reading more than 100 pages of their own words in correspondence back and forth among them. ...
...My fervent prayer is that in a godly way I will bring into the light, and express my perspective of, this heart-rending situation. I pray also that God will preserve this unique ministry...
Jeff-
I appreciate the posting of John Lynn's letter. But I think it is "too little, too late" to satisfy the questions generated by this thread. Please post your perspective of how John's letter [position paper] about the firings is going to resolve the issues presented by Elizabeth? Better yet, give him a copy of Elizabeth's letter and ask him to read it out loud to you. Then wait for his reaction. Then you will know the truth if you ask God for discernment. Be a minister to John. He is no one to be worshipped. You are his equal. It is not how much of the Word that you know, but rather how much of it you live.
John-
I can imagine the turmoil you must feel that Elizabeth's letter has been posted here. And I am sorry that it had to be posted before it had any impact. But you had plenty of time to deal with it before I ever saw it.
The excerpts above show that you think this problem began only 7 months ago so that tells me you don't think Karen Anne and the prophets of doom influenced your divorce. I think anyone who has read the documents can see that they did.
I am disappointed that you are "weeping for your friends" on the board, but not for your wife and others who have seen this abuse first hand ever since the board began looking to become a church and needing to control others. When CES was just an educational organization they just sold books and tapes so no need to control, only market.
I am sure that it is difficult to go to the place of dispair necessary to repent for what you have allowed and what you have done. I pray you do and that you find a true friend with which to do it. From your position paper, I do not see that you have done that, rather you are analyzing the less painful situation. I can understand that. It is safer.
Perhaps as I write, you are now looking at the deeper issues, the truely heart-rending issues.
For the record I believe that John should have supported his wife also from what I have read, but I also may not know the whole story.
Spiders coming out of her nose and dead babies in other peoples dreams or Karen Anne's dreams for that matter was enough for me to know the whole story
It is pretty common that people want to put forth their limited time and energy into something that they feel will be of benefit, most don't look for things that they feel will be a waste of their time.
Again, come on whitedove, he is so f'ing busy with things that he feels will benefit others that he can't spend a little time letting his faithful followers (note that it isn't just a follower, with him it must be a "faithful follower.) What is he doing, more research??? Ministering healing that he is so busy. Whoever posted the first thread regarding this Crisis in CES must have felt the answers important and not just a waste of the Board of Directors time, else he/she wouldn't have posted them on the world wide web. Quit making excuses for him, he is a grown man, responsible to God Almighty for the stuff that he teaches. Hey maybe he is writing another book!!
I am just flabberghasted by the concept being pushed here by JAL that this problem is only 7 months in the making. ???????
Great point. Also great points made by "grace" and Ducttape. Jeff did a good job of distracting the people here from the real problems with CES, by posting John's letter. The problems with CES run far deeper and are more widespread than John Lynn. John's letter is a distraction from the core problems, a distraction from how widespread the problems are.
Grace said:
NOTE: CES is not in a Mess just because on January 15 the Board will vote Mark out as President, terminate him as an employee and cut off further input from Karen Anne (and probably from Tom and Susan). CES is in a Mess because your entire BOD has continued to allow more and more ungodly words and actions to reign in their/your organization and refused to hear from many believers who pointed it out to them. Tragically, it is just what occurred in The Way under whom your BOD was trained.
and Ducttape pointed out:
We are all just discussing John Lynn's favorite subject, John Lynn
If you reread my post the context of my comment was in regard to those just popping off making .... up without regard to whether it is true or not.
Spiritual darkness is spiritual darkness if you have eyes that really want to see
Because of this situation I would agree that there is no point for him to speak here why should he?
I don't know, ask Jeff - he's the one that posted the letter......
If one wants respect it might be wise to give it, making snide remarks, talking about something you no nothing about is not doing that.
Exactly how I feel about the snide remarks he makes at the end of his letter.....who else would he be talking to but Greasespot?
That has a lot to do with how much respect and time a person puts into things. I'd feel the same way, respect me we can talk insult me why waste the time no point it is obvious that they don’t care.
Exactly John Lynn, insult me why waste the time no point it is obvious that they don't care. Right back atcha....
I agree 100% with you that in this situation all need to come clean, if it ends up here fine,
Good assessment
but I don't think they owe this board a explanation.
Nor do I, but some members of CES brought this up, not me
they do owe their supporters one as you said.
Agreed
I would disagree that a great number of CES/STFI folks have been looking in on this forum
Over 15,000 views, come one, somebody is coming here
I see a few but in terms of their numbers it looks like a few to me.
Just cuz they don't post doesn't mean they are not here reading
There is nothing John could say that would please the crowd here and you know it, or any other offshoot leader for that matter.
Except to come clean
Do you go places that you are not welcome? really come on ..... why would one do that? Anything he says and you know how it is on the net, would be picked apart and twisted.
Because it is so obviously flawed and devilish. A mediocre Christian could tell you that.
Don't think so? Read his letter again nowhere does he say that anyone here is unworthy of dialogue.
If we are worthy of dialogue, why doesn't he just come clean right here and now? Why does he care, after all he just thinks we are a bunch of disgruntled posters.
Not what he said, do you see anywhere where he said anyone was unworthy? I don't, and people wonder why he won't speak here?
Because he is a coward, if he can't control the conversation, then he has fear
He also never said he would not dialogue with people he simply asked to know who he was speaking with I find that a reasonable request in the internet age.
Oh please, quit making sickening excuses for him....if he is such a MOG....he doesn't need you to defend him, he can come here and speak for himself.......he didn't even have the nerve to post himself, he had someone else do it...
I've said it before it makes the detractors of this site job very easy to dismiss this board as gossip, and unreliable when you prove their point for them.
And just how have we proved their point for them. By asking a man who claims to speak for God to be honest??
If we want GreaseSpot to be a help to others then integrity and honesty must be at the for front not jabs, disrespect and lies.
Exactly, consider that as you make excuses for him
I never made any excuses for John I spoke only to the dishonest remarks concerning him ,that has nothing to do with an excuse it's called a fact. He is not dependent on CES for a job or income as others have implied and he has worked a day in his life as others have correctly stated. . You need to get your facts straight before you challenge me. That is how you proved the point it is untrue and it is verifiable that it it is, and it is not the only thing either. Untruth makes posters uncreditable that's common sense fog, if you are a liar then people wont listen to you because you lie also conmon sense.
If you reread my post the context of my comment was in regard to those just popping off making .... up without regard to whether it is true or not.
Spiritual darkness is spiritual darkness if you have eyes that really want to see[/b]
So let me get this straight because there is spiritual darkness in the world anyone has the right to take others words out of context? These have to do with each other HOW?
He also never said he would not dialogue with people he simply asked to know who he was speaking with I find that a reasonable request in the internet age.
Oh please, quit making sickening excuses for him....if he is such a MOG....he doesn't need you to defend him, he can come here and speak for himself.......he didn't even have the nerve to post himself, he had someone else do it...
Merely stating a fact no excuse, no defense and your right he does not need me or anyone else defending him. But the fact is he never said he would not dialogue that is a lie. I will correct untruth, lies misinformation as I see fit. That is far different thing than defenses or excuses look up the difference in a dictionary.
I can't help but wonder if some of you are more concerned about being right/winning an argument, than you are about helping the CES people who have come here figure out what happened, what is happening, and what might happen down the road.
For the record I believe that John should have supported his wife also from what I have read, but I also may not know the whole story.
Spiders coming out of her nose and dead babies in other peoples dreams or Karen Anne's dreams for that matter was enough for me to know the whole story
It is pretty common that people want to put forth their limited time and energy into something that they feel will be of benefit, most don't look for things that they feel will be a waste of their time.
Again, come on whitedove, he is so f'ing busy with things that he feels will benefit others that he can't spend a little time letting his faithful followers (note that it isn't just a follower, with him it must be a "faithful follower.) What is he doing, more research??? Ministering healing that he is so busy. Whoever posted the first thread regarding this Crisis in CES must have felt the answers important and not just a waste of the Board of Directors time, else he/she wouldn't have posted them on the world wide web. Quit making excuses for him, he is a grown man, responsible to God Almighty for the stuff that he teaches.
Over 15,000 served (uh views)......please
Gee Fog I'm glad you know everything about John's marriage to make these decisions why did you not share it with us sooner?....... as in before someone else told you about it? Two sides to every story I heard one. I'll wait for the other of course I like truth not one sided preconceived opinions.
Again I think you missed a part of my words
Quote:It is pretty common that people want to put forth their limited time and energy into something that they feel will be of benefit, most don't look for things that they feel will be a waste of their time. Also most won't go where they feel that all they will get is flack and hang out, I doubt you would either? which as you know I'm sure was my point. Excluding the percent of non Christian who used to be and no longer wish to be, and the percent that no longer want anything to do with any offshoots. That does not leave John much to work with left I'd say.
It's a pretty easy concept fog people spend time an effort where they think it does the most benefit, there is very little here for him. If you don't get it sorry....
never made any excuses for John I spoke only to the dishonest remarks concerning him
how do you know the that the remarks about him are dishonest?
,that has nothing to do with an excuse it's called a fact. He is not dependent on CES for a job or income as others have implied and he has worked a day in his life as others have correctly stated
And I am supposed to be impressed, I am 50 and have worked since I was 15....so what is your point?
You need to get your facts straight before you challenge me.
Perhaps you need to get your spiritual eyes and ears focused before you challenge me.....And I am suppsed to be scared...sorry been there, done that, bought the T-shirt...........
That is how you proved the point it is untrue and it is verifiable that it it is, and it is not the only thing either. Untruth makes posters uncreditable that's common sense fog, if you are a liar then people wont listen to you because you lie also conmon sense.
Darling....... common sense tells me that I am not going to listen to some lunatic person prophecy that I have spiders coming out of my nose in their dreams and that if my husband believed that over me he would be history......common sense..........if that makes me a liar so be it........
b]how do you know the that the remarks about him are dishonest?[/b]
Fog I'll say this once more real slow John has a job, a business that he gets pay from ,money you know green stuff. If someone says that he does not and is dependent on CES as some have that would be untrue as I said verifiable even that makes the remark dishonest as it is a lie. The same with the comment that he said anyone here is unworthy a lie he did not say that it is also verifiable in his letter posed on the first page, as in the fact that the words are not there, anywhere, absent even.
Gee Fog I'm glad you know everything about John's marriage to make these decisions why did you not share it with us sooner?
Don't know alot about John's marriage, but I know alot about cult mentality...
....... as in before someone else told you about it? Two sides to every story I heard one. I'll wait for the other of course I like truth not one sided preconceived opinions.
Yes I am sure there is a good explanation about why these horrible things were prophecied to this woman...and John Lynn took the side of the prophetess instead of his wife........just waiting to hear it from him
Again I think you missed a part of my words
I think I must have
Quote:It is pretty common that people want to put forth their limited time and energy into something that they feel will be of benefit, most don't look for things that they feel will be a waste of their time. Also most won't go where they feel that all they will get is flack and hang out, I doubt you would either? which as you know I'm sure was my point. Excluding the percent of non Christian who used to be and no longer wish to be, and the percent that no longer want anything to do with any offshoots. That does not leave John much to work with left I'd say.
Poor John
It's a pretty easy concept fog people spend time an effort where they think it does the most benefit, there is very little here for him. If you don't get it sorry....
.....you mean there is very little to work with here at Greasespt because we no longer hold truth to the MOG mentality....we are free thinking individuals that think before we fall starry eyed to the next snake oil salesman package that comes along...if you don't get it sorry........
Truth is foundational to help anyone as long as we allow lies to go unchecked there is no credibility here. No one goes for help where they know that the one suposedly helping is a liar.
JAL isn't the problem with CES, WhiteDove, that is by and large what I take issue with. This entire thread has derailed/distracted people from the real problems. JAL may be a part of the problem, or he may simply be a symptom. People won't be helped by arguing about JAL, they will be helped by discussing the root problems that have occured within CES.
By discussing what has occured, by exposing any coverups that may have occured, etc.
Yes Tom I would ,if and when I see John or anyone else speaking that which I know to be untrue I'd call him on it in a minute.
So far I have not seen John twist anyones words here, I have seen some(but not you) twist his. As I said I don't pretend to have the whole story by any means,but I can read what someone says and see if it is misquoted later on. I have not disputed any other points here. It's simple don't put words in peoples mouths that they did not say and you have no problem from me.
Correct me if I am wrong.......but this is the thread about the letter from John Lynn...
it is possible that one of the problems with CES is about John Lynn.........
just as the problems with TWI were Doc Vic and LCM and their doctrine...........
Certainly, he could be one of the problems, or a symptom as I said in my previous post. Discuss what the letter says, quote it if you need to prove the statement was made. It is the arguing back and forth, he did so, he did not, he did too that gets tiresome and detracting. Hell, we could spend hours defining the word "truth" but I'm not sure it would really benefit anyone.
The problems with CES run far deeper and are more widespread than John Lynn. John's letter is a distraction from the core problems, a distraction from how widespread the problems are.
John was the original founder if I am correct. How did he let it get away from him like this. How is this a distraction??
Certainly, he could be one of the problems, or a symptom as I said in my previous post. Discuss what the letter says, quote it if you need to prove the statement was made. It is the arguing back and forth, he did so, he did not, he did too that gets tiresome and detracting. Hell, we could spend hours defining the word "truth" but I'm not sure it would really benefit anyone.
Hey I stated my opinion, whitedove called me a liar, water it down if you want...........Debating is not necessarily arguing back and forth...I have heard you do it in a few posts of your own Abigail, as well as pretty much every one here.....if you don't want to be distracted or tired out, skip over my posts............block me, ignore me, just don't water down the truth...........
JAL isn't the problem with CES, WhiteDove, that is by and large what I take issue with. This entire thread has derailed/distracted people from the real problems. JAL may be a part of the problem, or he may simply be a symptom. People won't be helped by arguing about JAL, they will be helped by discussing the root problems that have occured within CES.
By discussing what has occured, by exposing any coverups that may have occured, etc.
I agree Abbie John just happens to be the source this time other times it's someone else or something else. The fact still remains that credibility in discussions is paramount, when it becomes obvious that cheap shots and lies are propounded as help and concern then you have lost your audience to help. It shows a lack of objectivity. Look I live every day around Fred Phelps and his anti gay signs and hate not a day passes that I don't see his people on the street For him to say he is compassionate toward gays would be a joke, a lie, his actions prove otherwise he has no credibility. If people see lies and cheap shots here then the same will be perceived, no credibility. That helps no one. What is so hard about speaking the truth do we really need to misquote, misrepresent people? What the hell is so hard about common respect, even if you think they don't deserve it. People have names use them not cornfield Vic or der word. Talk intelligently, truthfully ,honestly and people will listen, CES is in crisis, that is for sure and John just may be a part of it at least as far as I can tell. Perhaps setting aside the we hate offshoots agenda and honest dialogue would be a start, perhaps he would let his guard down also,maybe not he sure wont as it is that I'm sure of. Honestly do you blame him look at what happens when someone posts a pro offshoot comment here. Why would he think he would get a fair shake?
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WhiteDove
QUOTE(WhiteDove @ Dec 27 2006, 02:33 PM)
I would guess that he would rather spend what time he has in helping those that he feels have a desire to be helped rather than arguing with those that have no desire to be a part of what he has to offer, and don't care to know the facts before they run their mouth like they are some sort of authority on his life.
Like he helped his wife?
First you isolated a part of a sentence and then did so out of the context of my reply . It had nothing to do with his Exwife. If you want to take a shot at John do so on your own without twisting my words! For the record I believe that John should have supported his wife also from what I have read, but I also may not know the whole story.
It is pretty common that people want to put forth their limited time and energy into something that they feel will be of benefit, most don't look for things that they feel will be a waste of their time. Also most won't go where they feel that all they will get is flack and hang out, I doubt you would either? which as you know I'm sure was my point. Excluding the percent of non christian who used to be and no longer wish to be, and the percent that no longer want anything to do with any offshoots. That does not leave John much to work with left I'd say.
Which prompted my conclusion that I would guess that he would rather spend what time he has in helping those that he feels have a desire to be helped rather than arguing with those that have no desire to be a part of what he has to offer, and don't care to know the facts before they run their mouth like they are some sort of authority on his life.
Thanks your post proves my point.
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Tom Strange
No, we wouldn't want to be the cause of that...
OR
Maybe someone from CES/STFI will cruise by this thread #3, see "B.S." being called on JAL AND THE BOARD and maybe they'll agree. I'm trying to stay away from slinging any mud... I called for REPENTANCE, HONESTY and HUMILITY... they (JAL and THE BOARD) owe their followers that.
Haven't seen any from them yet... just posturing. I don't feel that's gossiping, that's standing up in the room and calling B.S. on the guy at the podium.
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Ductape
We are all just discussing John Lynn's favorite subject, John Lynn.
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Captain Crunch
Jeff-
I appreciate the posting of John Lynn's letter. But I think it is "too little, too late" to satisfy the questions generated by this thread. Please post your perspective of how John's letter [position paper] about the firings is going to resolve the issues presented by Elizabeth? Better yet, give him a copy of Elizabeth's letter and ask him to read it out loud to you. Then wait for his reaction. Then you will know the truth if you ask God for discernment. Be a minister to John. He is no one to be worshipped. You are his equal. It is not how much of the Word that you know, but rather how much of it you live.
John-
I can imagine the turmoil you must feel that Elizabeth's letter has been posted here. And I am sorry that it had to be posted before it had any impact. But you had plenty of time to deal with it before I ever saw it.
The excerpts above show that you think this problem began only 7 months ago so that tells me you don't think Karen Anne and the prophets of doom influenced your divorce. I think anyone who has read the documents can see that they did.
I am disappointed that you are "weeping for your friends" on the board, but not for your wife and others who have seen this abuse first hand ever since the board began looking to become a church and needing to control others. When CES was just an educational organization they just sold books and tapes so no need to control, only market.
I am sure that it is difficult to go to the place of dispair necessary to repent for what you have allowed and what you have done. I pray you do and that you find a true friend with which to do it. From your position paper, I do not see that you have done that, rather you are analyzing the less painful situation. I can understand that. It is safer.
Perhaps as I write, you are now looking at the deeper issues, the truely heart-rending issues.
CC
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outofdafog
For the record I believe that John should have supported his wife also from what I have read, but I also may not know the whole story.
Spiders coming out of her nose and dead babies in other peoples dreams or Karen Anne's dreams for that matter was enough for me to know the whole story
It is pretty common that people want to put forth their limited time and energy into something that they feel will be of benefit, most don't look for things that they feel will be a waste of their time.
Again, come on whitedove, he is so f'ing busy with things that he feels will benefit others that he can't spend a little time letting his faithful followers (note that it isn't just a follower, with him it must be a "faithful follower.) What is he doing, more research??? Ministering healing that he is so busy. Whoever posted the first thread regarding this Crisis in CES must have felt the answers important and not just a waste of the Board of Directors time, else he/she wouldn't have posted them on the world wide web. Quit making excuses for him, he is a grown man, responsible to God Almighty for the stuff that he teaches. Hey maybe he is writing another book!!
Over 15,000 served (uh views)......please
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Abigail
Great point. Also great points made by "grace" and Ducttape. Jeff did a good job of distracting the people here from the real problems with CES, by posting John's letter. The problems with CES run far deeper and are more widespread than John Lynn. John's letter is a distraction from the core problems, a distraction from how widespread the problems are.
Grace said:
NOTE: CES is not in a Mess just because on January 15 the Board will vote Mark out as President, terminate him as an employee and cut off further input from Karen Anne (and probably from Tom and Susan). CES is in a Mess because your entire BOD has continued to allow more and more ungodly words and actions to reign in their/your organization and refused to hear from many believers who pointed it out to them. Tragically, it is just what occurred in The Way under whom your BOD was trained.
and Ducttape pointed out:
We are all just discussing John Lynn's favorite subject, John Lynn
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WhiteDove
I never made any excuses for John I spoke only to the dishonest remarks concerning him ,that has nothing to do with an excuse it's called a fact. He is not dependent on CES for a job or income as others have implied and he has worked a day in his life as others have correctly stated. . You need to get your facts straight before you challenge me. That is how you proved the point it is untrue and it is verifiable that it it is, and it is not the only thing either. Untruth makes posters uncreditable that's common sense fog, if you are a liar then people wont listen to you because you lie also conmon sense.
So let me get this straight because there is spiritual darkness in the world anyone has the right to take others words out of context? These have to do with each other HOW?
Merely stating a fact no excuse, no defense and your right he does not need me or anyone else defending him. But the fact is he never said he would not dialogue that is a lie. I will correct untruth, lies misinformation as I see fit. That is far different thing than defenses or excuses look up the difference in a dictionary.
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Abigail
I can't help but wonder if some of you are more concerned about being right/winning an argument, than you are about helping the CES people who have come here figure out what happened, what is happening, and what might happen down the road.
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WhiteDove
Gee Fog I'm glad you know everything about John's marriage to make these decisions why did you not share it with us sooner?....... as in before someone else told you about it? Two sides to every story I heard one. I'll wait for the other of course I like truth not one sided preconceived opinions.
Again I think you missed a part of my words
Quote:It is pretty common that people want to put forth their limited time and energy into something that they feel will be of benefit, most don't look for things that they feel will be a waste of their time. Also most won't go where they feel that all they will get is flack and hang out, I doubt you would either? which as you know I'm sure was my point. Excluding the percent of non Christian who used to be and no longer wish to be, and the percent that no longer want anything to do with any offshoots. That does not leave John much to work with left I'd say.
It's a pretty easy concept fog people spend time an effort where they think it does the most benefit, there is very little here for him. If you don't get it sorry....
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outofdafog
never made any excuses for John I spoke only to the dishonest remarks concerning him
how do you know the that the remarks about him are dishonest?
,that has nothing to do with an excuse it's called a fact. He is not dependent on CES for a job or income as others have implied and he has worked a day in his life as others have correctly stated
And I am supposed to be impressed, I am 50 and have worked since I was 15....so what is your point?
You need to get your facts straight before you challenge me.
Perhaps you need to get your spiritual eyes and ears focused before you challenge me.....And I am suppsed to be scared...sorry been there, done that, bought the T-shirt...........
That is how you proved the point it is untrue and it is verifiable that it it is, and it is not the only thing either. Untruth makes posters uncreditable that's common sense fog, if you are a liar then people wont listen to you because you lie also conmon sense.
Darling....... common sense tells me that I am not going to listen to some lunatic person prophecy that I have spiders coming out of my nose in their dreams and that if my husband believed that over me he would be history......common sense..........if that makes me a liar so be it........
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therebutforgrace
Thanks Abigail.
Can't we all just get along?
OK, we can't. Well, can we move it to another thread?
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outofdafog
Hey if you are going to put your opinion out here, you can expect to be challenged........it's called life.........
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WhiteDove
[
Fog I'll say this once more real slow John has a job, a business that he gets pay from ,money you know green stuff. If someone says that he does not and is dependent on CES as some have that would be untrue as I said verifiable even that makes the remark dishonest as it is a lie. The same with the comment that he said anyone here is unworthy a lie he did not say that it is also verifiable in his letter posed on the first page, as in the fact that the words are not there, anywhere, absent even.
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outofdafog
Gee Fog I'm glad you know everything about John's marriage to make these decisions why did you not share it with us sooner?
Don't know alot about John's marriage, but I know alot about cult mentality...
....... as in before someone else told you about it? Two sides to every story I heard one. I'll wait for the other of course I like truth not one sided preconceived opinions.
Yes I am sure there is a good explanation about why these horrible things were prophecied to this woman...and John Lynn took the side of the prophetess instead of his wife........just waiting to hear it from him
Again I think you missed a part of my words
I think I must have
Quote:It is pretty common that people want to put forth their limited time and energy into something that they feel will be of benefit, most don't look for things that they feel will be a waste of their time. Also most won't go where they feel that all they will get is flack and hang out, I doubt you would either? which as you know I'm sure was my point. Excluding the percent of non Christian who used to be and no longer wish to be, and the percent that no longer want anything to do with any offshoots. That does not leave John much to work with left I'd say.
Poor John
It's a pretty easy concept fog people spend time an effort where they think it does the most benefit, there is very little here for him. If you don't get it sorry....
.....you mean there is very little to work with here at Greasespt because we no longer hold truth to the MOG mentality....we are free thinking individuals that think before we fall starry eyed to the next snake oil salesman package that comes along...if you don't get it sorry........
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WhiteDove
Abbie
Truth is foundational to help anyone as long as we allow lies to go unchecked there is no credibility here. No one goes for help where they know that the one suposedly helping is a liar.
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Tom Strange
Will you do the same concerning JAL and THE BOARD? That's all I've been doing.
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Abigail
JAL isn't the problem with CES, WhiteDove, that is by and large what I take issue with. This entire thread has derailed/distracted people from the real problems. JAL may be a part of the problem, or he may simply be a symptom. People won't be helped by arguing about JAL, they will be helped by discussing the root problems that have occured within CES.
By discussing what has occured, by exposing any coverups that may have occured, etc.
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outofdafog
Correct me if I am wrong.......but this is the thread about the letter from John Lynn...
it is possible that one of the problems with CES is about John Lynn.........
just as the problems with TWI were Doc Vic and LCM and their doctrine...........
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WhiteDove
Yes Tom I would ,if and when I see John or anyone else speaking that which I know to be untrue I'd call him on it in a minute.
So far I have not seen John twist anyones words here, I have seen some(but not you) twist his. As I said I don't pretend to have the whole story by any means,but I can read what someone says and see if it is misquoted later on. I have not disputed any other points here. It's simple don't put words in peoples mouths that they did not say and you have no problem from me.
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outofdafog
Truth is foundational to help anyone as long as we allow lies to go unchecked there is no credibility here.
What lies Whitedove, please indulge us with the lies we have told about poor John Lynn......
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Abigail
Certainly, he could be one of the problems, or a symptom as I said in my previous post. Discuss what the letter says, quote it if you need to prove the statement was made. It is the arguing back and forth, he did so, he did not, he did too that gets tiresome and detracting. Hell, we could spend hours defining the word "truth" but I'm not sure it would really benefit anyone.
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outofdafog
The problems with CES run far deeper and are more widespread than John Lynn. John's letter is a distraction from the core problems, a distraction from how widespread the problems are.
John was the original founder if I am correct. How did he let it get away from him like this. How is this a distraction??
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outofdafog
Certainly, he could be one of the problems, or a symptom as I said in my previous post. Discuss what the letter says, quote it if you need to prove the statement was made. It is the arguing back and forth, he did so, he did not, he did too that gets tiresome and detracting. Hell, we could spend hours defining the word "truth" but I'm not sure it would really benefit anyone.
Hey I stated my opinion, whitedove called me a liar, water it down if you want...........Debating is not necessarily arguing back and forth...I have heard you do it in a few posts of your own Abigail, as well as pretty much every one here.....if you don't want to be distracted or tired out, skip over my posts............block me, ignore me, just don't water down the truth...........
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WhiteDove
I agree Abbie John just happens to be the source this time other times it's someone else or something else. The fact still remains that credibility in discussions is paramount, when it becomes obvious that cheap shots and lies are propounded as help and concern then you have lost your audience to help. It shows a lack of objectivity. Look I live every day around Fred Phelps and his anti gay signs and hate not a day passes that I don't see his people on the street For him to say he is compassionate toward gays would be a joke, a lie, his actions prove otherwise he has no credibility. If people see lies and cheap shots here then the same will be perceived, no credibility. That helps no one. What is so hard about speaking the truth do we really need to misquote, misrepresent people? What the hell is so hard about common respect, even if you think they don't deserve it. People have names use them not cornfield Vic or der word. Talk intelligently, truthfully ,honestly and people will listen, CES is in crisis, that is for sure and John just may be a part of it at least as far as I can tell. Perhaps setting aside the we hate offshoots agenda and honest dialogue would be a start, perhaps he would let his guard down also,maybe not he sure wont as it is that I'm sure of. Honestly do you blame him look at what happens when someone posts a pro offshoot comment here. Why would he think he would get a fair shake?
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