If i went to work and they told me four out of five wanted me to quit, including the founding father of the job.
hello in the real world most would spiff up the old resume' right?
this is all still the fantasy world we and yes i include me it is hard to shake , live in at times.
hello the first question i ask is what does happen in the world everyone never involved in a cult do?
he would be gone.
but in our never ending world of bible world and fantasy we pull out these terms and conditions that apply only to those who understand this bazaaro thinking.
of course we are "not of the world" a bible verse used in this context im sure...
At this point, I wonder if his survival depends on continued endorsement of the organization.
What's he gonna do if it folds?
Sell books?
I think he's painted himself in a corner of sorts..
John will continue to do what he does now I'd suppose run his SAT business.
I bet he will do just fine with or without CES. He might write books. So What? It's a free market they will either fail or succeed in that market.
I understand his choice not to spend time discussing things that will end up changing nothing. What would be the point? Most of the people here have no interest in CES as in being a part of it. I expect he is busy with his own stuff and GreaseSpot is not a place that is friendly to exway offshoots. What would be to gain in pages of arguments and cheap shots? Point in case it has been said more than a few times that John has a outside business and is not paid by CES and yet it seems that posts like the above still continue. Very Few want to get the facts straight before they assume things in their posts it's much easier to just say whatever. I would guess that he would rather spend what time he has in helping those that he feels have a desire to be helped rather than arguing with those that have no desire to be a part of what he has to offer, and don't care to know the facts before they run their mouth like they are some sort of authority on his life.
From my perspective, after being out for almost two decades now, this just all seems like like pointless drama - don't these offshoot leaders ever get tired of this? what a waste of time and life. These little groups are so insignificant. I am so sorry for the people hurt by this.
VPW ordained these men. By law, those who left TWI years ago and were no longer affiliated with TWI could not retain their "Reverend" title. But they still use them anyway. Why, when I saw so few of these men with "gift" ministries in TWI, do they feel they need to go off and start their own offshoots? Sure, JAL had a gift of gab, and thought he was funny. But so are a lot of other people.
I think if someone really felt called of God to serve, they'd attend seminary, get credentialled, and work within a church with real boards, psychological evaluations, open meetings, etc. as some I know have done.
For some reason, TWI fostered this MOG mentality, gotta follow someone. Or if someone was a MOG, well, they now have to take the package, purify it, make it better and sell it. What gives these people the right with no real theological educations the right to even do this? Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
CES was founded on shaky theology, and will never recover from this. Lots and lots of head knowledge, but no heart for Christ, oh sure, lip service, like all of TWI was.
I think, on this thread, so many who have left these groups and have moved on talk about Christ - because he has become living and real to them after they got rid of the rules, guidance, packages, etc. and were humble enough to let God lead and teach them. Following a MOG will not get you any closer to Christ. You have the Holy Spirit, let him work in your hearts.
Nothing more to see, time to move on.
I think the only one with a truly weeping heart in this situation is Christ.
A brief p.s. to critics of Spirit & Truth Fellowship:
Given the way that documents such as this somehow wind up on the Internet, let me say a few things to our detractors who will use this current situation in STF to say “I told you so,” take potshots at us, and magnify our flaws above the good we are doing for people. First, God bless you, I love you. Second, be sure you know enough truth about the issues to make a rational judgment. Third, get close enough to the nucleus of STF leadership to see their hearts before you impugn them. Fourth, take an honest look at what we teach from the Word about whatever subjects are pertinent to this matter, like prophecy. Prophecy is prophecy, and to criticize “personal prophecy” as unbiblical, in and of itself, is contrary to Scripture. We have a book on Prophecy that deals with this subject in depth from the Word, which you can get from www.stfonline.org.
In that vein, the reason I remain totally committed to Spirit and Truth Fellowship International is because I can find no one else with the “package” we have to offer, and I know the true heart with which we present it, as well as the liberating impact it has had on people around the world during the past 20 years. You will have to judge for yourself whether what we teach is sound doctrine, and whether we practice it in love. But you cannot do that from afar. I encourage you to dig into our work, and I exhort you to “stay tuned” and see if the hand of God is on us. Watch and see where He takes this ministry in the days ahead. I do hope that among the millions whose lives we hope to touch, we will be able to bless you, the only you God has.
As to what is flying around cyberspace about me and my personal life, my email is jalces@aol.com and my home phone is 317-849-5707. If you know me and care about me, I’ll be glad to communicate with you. I will not, however, dialogue with anonymous people who lack the love and courage to identify themselves in interacting with me.
I think JAL's response here is quite good.
And he's left an open invitation to those who require a detailed inquiry into his personal life to contact him directly.
What more can you ask for?
To me this seems much better than backbiting the guy.
I understand his choice not to spend time discussing things that will end up changing nothing. What would be the point?
The point is there are (and have been) a lot of CES/STFI followers reading here.
IF they (not just JAL, but the entire board) really wanted to come clean about all of this, they could take advantage of this large forum and post the honest truth about things... not just skirt around the issues and give a 'position' on what is already known...
IF, as others have alluded, there's much more to this than what's been exposed here... THEN come out with it. Lay the cards on the table and let them fall where they may.
FINALLY, the point is these folks accepted responsibility when they took these positions. Saying "call me personally" or "here's my email" will not get the message of repentance out to the most people (of course, first they'd have to be repentant AND I'M NOT JUST SPEAKING OF JAL, I'M SPEAKING OF THE WHOLE BOARD.
Most of the people here have no interest in CES as in being a part of it.
That's true, but MOST of the people here do have a deep concern and feeling of empathy for those in CES/STFI that have been affected by this... AND (as I said before) a great number of CES/STFI folks have been looking in on this forum.
I expect he is busy with his own stuff and GreaseSpot is not a place that is friendly to exway offshoots.
IF GSC is where folks are coming to learn what's happening then why not? Regardless of it's friendliness... and I think GSC is friendly or unfriendly based upon the level of honesty and how forthcoming folks are. IF an open and honest explanation (or whatever you want to call it) was given, laying everything out there, I think you'd find folks would react a lot differently. It's been my experience that folks around here don't like dishonesty... or the feeling that they're being fed a load of tripe... that's when you get the unfriendliness... I'll grant you, the response wouldn't be all rosey, but then again, should it be?
What would be to gain in pages of arguments and cheap shots?
As I've said, I think there'd be fewer pages of "arguments and cheap shots" if there were MORE HONESTY on their part (JAL AND the board). They were all complicit in this... where are they? It would seem that they're sitting on the sidelines hoping it will blow over.
Point in case it has been said more than a few times that John has a outside business and is not paid by CES and yet it seems that posts like the above still continue.
I can't speak to that other than my take on it is that "they" (the posters) fell like there's not much HONESTY coming from him... and therefore have no respect for him. (but that's just my take) Hey, he took the position, he's set himself up, he knows the territory attracts scrutiny... he didn't just fall off the cabbage truck.
Very Few want to get the facts straight before they assume things in their posts it's much easier to just say whatever.
What facts? "They" seem to have gotten their facts straight as to his employ. No one has been inferring that JAL gets his income from CES/STFI... however... JAL still presents things in the light of it's partly 'his' ministry/organization. If you (not just you WD, anyone) read that position paper and didn't realize that he's still very much involved in it, involved with the board, then you need to read it again. Additionally, in his position paper he alludes to his position being that CES/STFI is less than it could be without him officially on the board.
I would guess that he would rather spend what time he has in helping those that he feels have a desire to be helped rather than arguing with those that have no desire to be a part of what he has to offer, and don't care to know the facts before they run their mouth like they are some sort of authority on his life.
I would guess that the best way he, and the board, could spend their time would be first to come clean honestly about whatever has been going on. And they don't have to do it here at GSC, they can do it on their own site for all I care. But forthrightness and honesty has been sorely lacking from both JAL and THE ENTIRE BOARD. Many have alluded here to other things that have been allowed to happen... WHY NOT DEAL WITH IT ALL? WHY NOT PUT ALL OF THE LAUNDRY OUT THERE TO BE WASHED? As opposed to only admitting to 'what you think they know about'?
And they should do it in the open spaces of the internet because that will reach the most people the quickest.
IF they're really interested in cleaning things up as opposed to huddling in the bunker trying to defend themselves from the grenades being tossed. STAND UP and put it out there for folks to deal with... HONESTLY... without reservation.
IF one were really repentant they wouldn't care "how it looks"... along with a lack of HONESTY here there seems to be also a lack of HUMILITY.
And he's left an open invitation to those who require a detailed inquiry into his personal life to contact him directly.
What more can you ask for?
To me this seems much better than backbiting the guy.
First of all.. HONESTY. You think he wasn't addressing that directly to GSC, knowing that it would be posted here? "somehow wind up on the internet"... give me a break.
HE KNEW JEFF WAS GOING TO POST IT. NO HONESTY.
Secondly, I haven't seen a whole lot of posts concerning "a detailed inquiry into his personal life"... this has been by and large about an organization/ministry that he is intricately involved with (I said intricately, not officially). He says so himself in the 'position paper'.
I'm not backbiting the guy although there has been some posts here that appear to be...
but maybe they're just fed up with the lack of HONESTY and CANDOR in his communications.
AND WHERE IS THE BOARD? WHERE IS THEIR COMMUNICATION.
As I said above, it doesn't have to be here at GSC... heck, it should be on their own site!
What more could CES/STFI fellowshippers ask for? HONESTY, HUMILITY, REPENTANCE, GRACE
They've gotten none of those things (so far) from THEIR BOARD.
I would guess that he would rather spend what time he has in helping those that he feels have a desire to be helped rather than arguing with those that have no desire to be a part of what he has to offer, and don't care to know the facts before they run their mouth like they are some sort of authority on his life.
I am just flabberghasted by the concept being pushed here by JAL that this problem is only 7 months in the making. ???????
JAL quote:
As I do my best to summarily chronicle why I have arrived at the perspective I have, space and prudence compel me to omit many incidents and details about how Mark and Karen Anne have showed up since last April, which I have heard corroborated by 12 credible, firsthand witnesses who I personally know to be faithful believers.
For years there has been a fairly widespread perception among quite a few people involved with STF that Karen Anne has been exerting an undue and negative influence on Mark, and others. Some have felt she is “running the ministry” via her prophecies, Many times I have vehemently (and, I firmly believe, rightly) defended her. Having been integrally involved in every major ministry decision from 1987-2000 and somewhat involved in many others from 2000-2005, I know that she has not “run the ministry.” That being said, I have of late been surprised to learn that the perception of her negative influence is far more pervasive than I realized, and, having been made aware of numerous incidents in which she has exerted undue and harmful influence, I no longer believe that this perception is groundless.
And by the consistent testimony of about a dozen witnesses, and in my own opinion based upon Mark and Karen Anne’s written words, the fruit in their lives has badly deteriorated in the past seven months.
end of quote
Wow.
delete JAL-type funny comments
A fountain cannot produce both good and bad water. A tree cannot produce both good and bad fruit. You plant a seed in the late 90's and over time it matures and produces more and more fruit. And the water or fruit will not be good one year and then bad the next and then good the next.
What supposedly changed 7 months ago that is any different than what many reported over the last numbers of YEARS? and what made all of those people wrong before last April?
I have no dog in this fight so to speak. I have no affiliation with CES. And I don't disagree with most of what you said. But much of what you said is in regard to the issue at hand ,I have no first hand knowledge of it so I intentionally refrained from acting as if I do, that's me. I have read what has been posted obviously there is a bit of a gulf between the parties involved which leads me to conclude that the truth most likely lies somewhere in between. I've said before I won't pass judgment on someone or something based on internet fodder, it is unreliable and often agenda based.
If you reread my post the context of my comment was in regard to those just popping off making .... up without regard to whether it is true or not. Because of this situation I would agree that there is no point for him to speak here why should he? If one wants respect it might be wise to give it, making snide remarks, talking about something you no nothing about is not doing that. That has a lot to do with how much respect and time a person puts into things. I'd feel the same way, respect me we can talk insult me why waste the time no point it is obvious that they don’t care.
I agree 100% with you that in this situation all need to come clean, if it ends up here fine, but I don't think they owe this board a explanation. they do owe their supporters one as you said. I would disagree that a great number of CES/STFI folks have been looking in on this forum, I see a few but in terms of their numbers it looks like a few to me. There is nothing John could say that would please the crowd here and you know it, or any other offshoot leader for that matter. Do you go places that you are not welcome? really come on ..... why would one do that? Anything he says and you know how it is on the net, would be picked apart and twisted. Don't think so? Read his letter again nowhere does he say that anyone here is unworthy of dialogue. Not what he said, do you see anywhere where he said anyone was unworthy? I don't, and people wonder why he won't speak here? He also never said he would not dialogue with people he simply asked to know who he was speaking with I find that a reasonable request in the internet age. I've said it before it makes the detractors of this site job very easy to dismiss this board as gossip, and unreliable when you prove their point for them. If we want GreaseSpot to be a help to others then integrity and honesty must be at the for front not jabs, disrespect and lies.
What facts? "They" seem to have gotten their facts straight as to his employ. No one has been inferring that JAL gets his income from CES/STFI
Apparently not Tom I think the phrase used in a few posts was "he's never worked a day in his life". Nor does this post sound like they have his employ straight.
At this point, I wonder if his survival depends on continued endorsement of the organization.
What's he gonna do if it folds?
Sell books?
I think he's painted himself in a corner of sorts..
were posted on Dec 16 and expose some of CES' leaders' activities which were probably hidden from you.
The people who are writing on this 3rd thread have already decided they think CES’ words and actions were, to say the least, ungodly; thus the tone of this thread.....
But you need to decide for yourself if you think these activities were godly or ungodly, becoming or not becoming of the leadership you choose to follow, fulfilling or not fulfilling of God's qualifications for leaders, etc....so please Read #1.
has many wonderfully constructive, biblically sound and very helpful comments about what was exposed, written by people who love God and who have themselves been through and also helped others get through upheavals of this nature.
This 3rd thread which you are reading now began only yesterday, 12-26, when John L. sent his letter out to people interested in CES and it was posted here for anyone else to read. This 3rd thread, in my frank opinion, could lead you to decide we are gossipers who could 'take you out' and that you should therefore return to CES-dom at once.
And no one on this thread would want to be the cause of that!
The truth is that #1 and #2 have exposed clear-cut facts...things which have occurred in your organization. Things which were called godly by your leadership. These facts are not the whole mess...but they are symptomatic of it. Read them and decide if you think they are godly. Decide if you think your BOD/Staff needs to repent (publicly for public sins and privately for private sins) or step down.
NOTE: CES is not in a Mess just because on January 15 the Board will vote Mark out as President, terminate him as an employee and cut off further input from Karen Anne (and probably from Tom and Susan). CES is in a Mess because your entire BOD has continued to allow more and more ungodly words and actions to reign in their/your organization and refused to hear from many believers who pointed it out to them. Tragically, it is just what occurred in The Way under whom your BOD was trained. Perhaps you, too, have seen ungodliness and have spoken up about it. Many of us have and were discounted, dismissed, M&A'd or otherwise attacked and discredited among our families and our friends. Exposing these facts should lead to the end...the VERY LONG OVERDUE END...of that.
Therefore, many of us praise God that these facts no longer remain hidden.
If it's books you need and want then it's books ye shall have! Amazingly, I have a book that addresses not only the issues of this thread, but the issues that are going to arise as a result of this thread. Read on to see how "Read This Book!" can help you!
Written in the breezey style you've come to know and love and packed with insight, it covers most of the things that are going to come up here AND saves you time and money by NOT covering the things that won't - as you'll see when you buy the book, the information in it is so powerful it will cause changes no one can imagine now that will eliminate the need to address those things! It's almost like making money when you invest in the book! Stay tuned for information on how to buy the book!
Sorry, I hope this isn't perceived as an effort to encourage anyone to buy that book, I'm just trying to give you the same advantages that those who have bought the book have. It would make it so much easier if everyone would and save me a lot of time. In fact, I'm even now calculating how it can be offered for an even cheaper price than the current FREE charge, by seeing if Paw will offer it as a one-time gift for new GS registrants. It's only fair - if you don't have the book, how can you intelligently discuss the contents of the book, which is pretty much going to be essential as all future threads are going to deal with the book anway, once we all have the book!
That's right - see? If you'd bought the book you'd have known that was coming! Really!
I'm simply saying "hey... look over there... is that a whited sepulchre?
Sure looks like one to me."
And if you don't think that CES/STFI folks haven't been coming here to look... you haven't been taking a look at the "guest" figures on the front page... also, in the first couple of days there were over 600 views per hour to CES thread... and many thousands more since then. Do you think that's just GS folks?
They're coming here to find out information about the ministry/organization they've been supporting/following. They should be able to go to the CES/STFI site for that... but there's nothing there is there?
There's the fringe on both sides of the spectrum, but the majority of the posters here have concern for people being used and hurt... I've got some spare time and I don't mind calling a spade a spade when I see it.
The ENTIRE BOARD (and JAL) ought to (owe it to) their supporters to put something out there for them to see... IF they're truly repentant and want to save it.
If you reread my post the context of my comment was in regard to those just popping off making .... up without regard to whether it is true or not.
Spiritual darkness is spiritual darkness if you have eyes that really want to see
Because of this situation I would agree that there is no point for him to speak here why should he?
I don't know, ask Jeff - he's the one that posted the letter......
If one wants respect it might be wise to give it, making snide remarks, talking about something you no nothing about is not doing that.
Exactly how I feel about the snide remarks he makes at the end of his letter.....who else would he be talking to but Greasespot?
That has a lot to do with how much respect and time a person puts into things. I'd feel the same way, respect me we can talk insult me why waste the time no point it is obvious that they don’t care.
Exactly John Lynn, insult me why waste the time no point it is obvious that they don't care. Right back atcha....
I agree 100% with you that in this situation all need to come clean, if it ends up here fine,
Good assessment
but I don't think they owe this board a explanation.
Nor do I, but some members of CES brought this up, not me
they do owe their supporters one as you said.
Agreed
I would disagree that a great number of CES/STFI folks have been looking in on this forum
Over 15,000 views, come one, somebody is coming here
I see a few but in terms of their numbers it looks like a few to me.
Just cuz they don't post doesn't mean they are not here reading
There is nothing John could say that would please the crowd here and you know it, or any other offshoot leader for that matter.
Except to come clean
Do you go places that you are not welcome? really come on ..... why would one do that? Anything he says and you know how it is on the net, would be picked apart and twisted.
Because it is so obviously flawed and devilish. A mediocre Christian could tell you that.
Don't think so? Read his letter again nowhere does he say that anyone here is unworthy of dialogue.
If we are worthy of dialogue, why doesn't he just come clean right here and now? Why does he care, after all he just thinks we are a bunch of disgruntled posters.If he has nothing to hide, why not put it out there, he's the one who claims he is the REV., why be scared of us, unless there is reason to be
Not what he said, do you see anywhere where he said anyone was unworthy? I don't, and people wonder why he won't speak here?
Because he is a coward, if he can't control the conversation, then he has fear
He also never said he would not dialogue with people he simply asked to know who he was speaking with I find that a reasonable request in the internet age.
Oh please, quit making sickening excuses for him....like we might be internet stalkers or sex perverts, he knows who frequents the GSC, EX-TWI.....if he is such a MOG....he doesn't need you to defend him, he can come here and speak for himself.......he didn't even have the nerve to post himself, he had someone else do it...
I've said it before it makes the detractors of this site job very easy to dismiss this board as gossip, and unreliable when you prove their point for them.
And just how have we proved their point for them. By asking a man who claims to speak for God to be honest??
If we want GreaseSpot to be a help to others then integrity and honesty must be at the for front not jabs, disrespect and lies.
Exactly, consider that as you make excuses for him
That's a beautiful post therebutforgrace, I must've been typing while you were posting...
NOTE: CES is not in a Mess just because on January 15 the Board will vote Mark out as President, terminate him as an employee and cut off further input from Karen Anne (and probably from Tom and Susan). CES is in a Mess because your entire BOD has continued to allow more and more ungodly words and actions to reign in their/your organization and refused to hear from many believers who pointed it out to them. Tragically, it is just what occurred in The Way under whom your BOD was trained. Perhaps you, too, have seen ungodliness and have spoken up about it. Many of us have and were discounted, dismissed, M&A'd or otherwise attacked and discredited among our families and our friends. Exposing these facts should lead to the end...the VERY LONG OVERDUE END...of that.
Therefore, many of us praise God that these facts no longer remain hidden.
and decide for yourself what action you should take....in addition to fervent prayer for all involved.
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pond
If i went to work and they told me four out of five wanted me to quit, including the founding father of the job.
hello in the real world most would spiff up the old resume' right?
this is all still the fantasy world we and yes i include me it is hard to shake , live in at times.
hello the first question i ask is what does happen in the world everyone never involved in a cult do?
he would be gone.
but in our never ending world of bible world and fantasy we pull out these terms and conditions that apply only to those who understand this bazaaro thinking.
of course we are "not of the world" a bible verse used in this context im sure...
um where does this life of the fantasy end?
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WhiteDove
John will continue to do what he does now I'd suppose run his SAT business.
I bet he will do just fine with or without CES. He might write books. So What? It's a free market they will either fail or succeed in that market.
I understand his choice not to spend time discussing things that will end up changing nothing. What would be the point? Most of the people here have no interest in CES as in being a part of it. I expect he is busy with his own stuff and GreaseSpot is not a place that is friendly to exway offshoots. What would be to gain in pages of arguments and cheap shots? Point in case it has been said more than a few times that John has a outside business and is not paid by CES and yet it seems that posts like the above still continue. Very Few want to get the facts straight before they assume things in their posts it's much easier to just say whatever. I would guess that he would rather spend what time he has in helping those that he feels have a desire to be helped rather than arguing with those that have no desire to be a part of what he has to offer, and don't care to know the facts before they run their mouth like they are some sort of authority on his life.
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Sunesis
From my perspective, after being out for almost two decades now, this just all seems like like pointless drama - don't these offshoot leaders ever get tired of this? what a waste of time and life. These little groups are so insignificant. I am so sorry for the people hurt by this.
VPW ordained these men. By law, those who left TWI years ago and were no longer affiliated with TWI could not retain their "Reverend" title. But they still use them anyway. Why, when I saw so few of these men with "gift" ministries in TWI, do they feel they need to go off and start their own offshoots? Sure, JAL had a gift of gab, and thought he was funny. But so are a lot of other people.
I think if someone really felt called of God to serve, they'd attend seminary, get credentialled, and work within a church with real boards, psychological evaluations, open meetings, etc. as some I know have done.
For some reason, TWI fostered this MOG mentality, gotta follow someone. Or if someone was a MOG, well, they now have to take the package, purify it, make it better and sell it. What gives these people the right with no real theological educations the right to even do this? Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
CES was founded on shaky theology, and will never recover from this. Lots and lots of head knowledge, but no heart for Christ, oh sure, lip service, like all of TWI was.
I think, on this thread, so many who have left these groups and have moved on talk about Christ - because he has become living and real to them after they got rid of the rules, guidance, packages, etc. and were humble enough to let God lead and teach them. Following a MOG will not get you any closer to Christ. You have the Holy Spirit, let him work in your hearts.
Nothing more to see, time to move on.
I think the only one with a truly weeping heart in this situation is Christ.
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oldiesman
I think JAL's response here is quite good.
And he's left an open invitation to those who require a detailed inquiry into his personal life to contact him directly.
What more can you ask for?
To me this seems much better than backbiting the guy.
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Tom Strange
ME in Bold:
I would guess that the best way he, and the board, could spend their time would be first to come clean honestly about whatever has been going on. And they don't have to do it here at GSC, they can do it on their own site for all I care. But forthrightness and honesty has been sorely lacking from both JAL and THE ENTIRE BOARD. Many have alluded here to other things that have been allowed to happen... WHY NOT DEAL WITH IT ALL? WHY NOT PUT ALL OF THE LAUNDRY OUT THERE TO BE WASHED? As opposed to only admitting to 'what you think they know about'?
And they should do it in the open spaces of the internet because that will reach the most people the quickest.
IF they're really interested in cleaning things up as opposed to huddling in the bunker trying to defend themselves from the grenades being tossed. STAND UP and put it out there for folks to deal with... HONESTLY... without reservation.
IF one were really repentant they wouldn't care "how it looks"... along with a lack of HONESTY here there seems to be also a lack of HUMILITY.
Of course, that's just my take... YMMV
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Tom Strange
First of all.. HONESTY. You think he wasn't addressing that directly to GSC, knowing that it would be posted here? "somehow wind up on the internet"... give me a break.
HE KNEW JEFF WAS GOING TO POST IT. NO HONESTY.
Secondly, I haven't seen a whole lot of posts concerning "a detailed inquiry into his personal life"... this has been by and large about an organization/ministry that he is intricately involved with (I said intricately, not officially). He says so himself in the 'position paper'.
I'm not backbiting the guy although there has been some posts here that appear to be...
but maybe they're just fed up with the lack of HONESTY and CANDOR in his communications.
AND WHERE IS THE BOARD? WHERE IS THEIR COMMUNICATION.
As I said above, it doesn't have to be here at GSC... heck, it should be on their own site!
What more could CES/STFI fellowshippers ask for? HONESTY, HUMILITY, REPENTANCE, GRACE
They've gotten none of those things (so far) from THEIR BOARD.
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A la prochaine
Ditto on what Strangeboy said...
JAL's response seems TWI-ish ...
they haven't lived outside that cult bubble long enough to realize what they REALLY feel yet.
I feel for them trapped inside as they are.
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waterbuffalo
Like he helped his wife?
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excathedra
wonderful words, sunesis
ps. it is all rhino's fault so that's the end of this thread
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likeaneagle
hey, I recognize his approach to resolve, I learned it in my leadership classes over the last years..
How do you resolve if you dont know the problem.
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excathedra
just write
the teacher
box 328
new knoxville oh 45871
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Tom Strange
You always seem to know the right words to say myseestorex!
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A la prochaine
EXCIE,
Touché
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Dot Matrix
EX
Laughing.....
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outofdafog
you crack me up ex
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oenophile
Is destroying people's lives part of the "package."
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richnchrispy
This is Richard
I am just flabberghasted by the concept being pushed here by JAL that this problem is only 7 months in the making. ???????
JAL quote:
As I do my best to summarily chronicle why I have arrived at the perspective I have, space and prudence compel me to omit many incidents and details about how Mark and Karen Anne have showed up since last April, which I have heard corroborated by 12 credible, firsthand witnesses who I personally know to be faithful believers.
For years there has been a fairly widespread perception among quite a few people involved with STF that Karen Anne has been exerting an undue and negative influence on Mark, and others. Some have felt she is “running the ministry” via her prophecies, Many times I have vehemently (and, I firmly believe, rightly) defended her. Having been integrally involved in every major ministry decision from 1987-2000 and somewhat involved in many others from 2000-2005, I know that she has not “run the ministry.” That being said, I have of late been surprised to learn that the perception of her negative influence is far more pervasive than I realized, and, having been made aware of numerous incidents in which she has exerted undue and harmful influence, I no longer believe that this perception is groundless.
And by the consistent testimony of about a dozen witnesses, and in my own opinion based upon Mark and Karen Anne’s written words, the fruit in their lives has badly deteriorated in the past seven months.
end of quote
Wow.
delete JAL-type funny comments
A fountain cannot produce both good and bad water. A tree cannot produce both good and bad fruit. You plant a seed in the late 90's and over time it matures and produces more and more fruit. And the water or fruit will not be good one year and then bad the next and then good the next.
What supposedly changed 7 months ago that is any different than what many reported over the last numbers of YEARS? and what made all of those people wrong before last April?
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WhiteDove
Tom
I have no dog in this fight so to speak. I have no affiliation with CES. And I don't disagree with most of what you said. But much of what you said is in regard to the issue at hand ,I have no first hand knowledge of it so I intentionally refrained from acting as if I do, that's me. I have read what has been posted obviously there is a bit of a gulf between the parties involved which leads me to conclude that the truth most likely lies somewhere in between. I've said before I won't pass judgment on someone or something based on internet fodder, it is unreliable and often agenda based.
If you reread my post the context of my comment was in regard to those just popping off making .... up without regard to whether it is true or not. Because of this situation I would agree that there is no point for him to speak here why should he? If one wants respect it might be wise to give it, making snide remarks, talking about something you no nothing about is not doing that. That has a lot to do with how much respect and time a person puts into things. I'd feel the same way, respect me we can talk insult me why waste the time no point it is obvious that they don’t care.
I agree 100% with you that in this situation all need to come clean, if it ends up here fine, but I don't think they owe this board a explanation. they do owe their supporters one as you said. I would disagree that a great number of CES/STFI folks have been looking in on this forum, I see a few but in terms of their numbers it looks like a few to me. There is nothing John could say that would please the crowd here and you know it, or any other offshoot leader for that matter. Do you go places that you are not welcome? really come on ..... why would one do that? Anything he says and you know how it is on the net, would be picked apart and twisted. Don't think so? Read his letter again nowhere does he say that anyone here is unworthy of dialogue. Not what he said, do you see anywhere where he said anyone was unworthy? I don't, and people wonder why he won't speak here? He also never said he would not dialogue with people he simply asked to know who he was speaking with I find that a reasonable request in the internet age. I've said it before it makes the detractors of this site job very easy to dismiss this board as gossip, and unreliable when you prove their point for them. If we want GreaseSpot to be a help to others then integrity and honesty must be at the for front not jabs, disrespect and lies.
Apparently not Tom I think the phrase used in a few posts was "he's never worked a day in his life". Nor does this post sound like they have his employ straight.
At this point, I wonder if his survival depends on continued endorsement of the organization.
What's he gonna do if it folds?
Sell books?
I think he's painted himself in a corner of sorts..
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therebutforgrace
To all CESers reading this far.....
I have been one of you. I love the people involved.
If you have not read Threads #1 and 2, you need to stop and go there, then come back here if you like..
#1..... THE FACTS <<<click there
were posted on Dec 16 and expose some of CES' leaders' activities which were probably hidden from you.
The people who are writing on this 3rd thread have already decided they think CES’ words and actions were, to say the least, ungodly; thus the tone of this thread.....
But you need to decide for yourself if you think these activities were godly or ungodly, becoming or not becoming of the leadership you choose to follow, fulfilling or not fulfilling of God's qualifications for leaders, etc....so please Read #1.
#2 CES Is In a Mess <<<click there
has many wonderfully constructive, biblically sound and very helpful comments about what was exposed, written by people who love God and who have themselves been through and also helped others get through upheavals of this nature.
This 3rd thread which you are reading now began only yesterday, 12-26, when John L. sent his letter out to people interested in CES and it was posted here for anyone else to read. This 3rd thread, in my frank opinion, could lead you to decide we are gossipers who could 'take you out' and that you should therefore return to CES-dom at once.
The truth is that #1 and #2 have exposed clear-cut facts...things which have occurred in your organization. Things which were called godly by your leadership. These facts are not the whole mess...but they are symptomatic of it. Read them and decide if you think they are godly. Decide if you think your BOD/Staff needs to repent (publicly for public sins and privately for private sins) or step down.
NOTE: CES is not in a Mess just because on January 15 the Board will vote Mark out as President, terminate him as an employee and cut off further input from Karen Anne (and probably from Tom and Susan). CES is in a Mess because your entire BOD has continued to allow more and more ungodly words and actions to reign in their/your organization and refused to hear from many believers who pointed it out to them. Tragically, it is just what occurred in The Way under whom your BOD was trained. Perhaps you, too, have seen ungodliness and have spoken up about it. Many of us have and were discounted, dismissed, M&A'd or otherwise attacked and discredited among our families and our friends. Exposing these facts should lead to the end...the VERY LONG OVERDUE END...of that.
Therefore, many of us praise God that these facts no longer remain hidden.
Please go to THE FACTS <<<click here
and then to CES Is In a Mess <<< click here
and decide for yourself what action you should take....in addition to fervent prayer for all involved.
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socks
If it's books you need and want then it's books ye shall have! Amazingly, I have a book that addresses not only the issues of this thread, but the issues that are going to arise as a result of this thread. Read on to see how "Read This Book!" can help you!
Written in the breezey style you've come to know and love and packed with insight, it covers most of the things that are going to come up here AND saves you time and money by NOT covering the things that won't - as you'll see when you buy the book, the information in it is so powerful it will cause changes no one can imagine now that will eliminate the need to address those things! It's almost like making money when you invest in the book! Stay tuned for information on how to buy the book!
Sorry, I hope this isn't perceived as an effort to encourage anyone to buy that book, I'm just trying to give you the same advantages that those who have bought the book have. It would make it so much easier if everyone would and save me a lot of time. In fact, I'm even now calculating how it can be offered for an even cheaper price than the current FREE charge, by seeing if Paw will offer it as a one-time gift for new GS registrants. It's only fair - if you don't have the book, how can you intelligently discuss the contents of the book, which is pretty much going to be essential as all future threads are going to deal with the book anway, once we all have the book!
That's right - see? If you'd bought the book you'd have known that was coming! Really!
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Ham
No, I'm not even thinking about his employ. What's his purpose in life? He's committed to CES, pure and simple.
Yeah.. he'll sell books. Or try.. but he'll never recapture the glory of old waydays gone by..
sad.
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Tom Strange
I'm not passing judgement either.
I'm simply saying "hey... look over there... is that a whited sepulchre?
Sure looks like one to me."
And if you don't think that CES/STFI folks haven't been coming here to look... you haven't been taking a look at the "guest" figures on the front page... also, in the first couple of days there were over 600 views per hour to CES thread... and many thousands more since then. Do you think that's just GS folks?
They're coming here to find out information about the ministry/organization they've been supporting/following. They should be able to go to the CES/STFI site for that... but there's nothing there is there?
There's the fringe on both sides of the spectrum, but the majority of the posters here have concern for people being used and hurt... I've got some spare time and I don't mind calling a spade a spade when I see it.
The ENTIRE BOARD (and JAL) ought to (owe it to) their supporters to put something out there for them to see... IF they're truly repentant and want to save it.
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outofdafog
If you reread my post the context of my comment was in regard to those just popping off making .... up without regard to whether it is true or not.
Spiritual darkness is spiritual darkness if you have eyes that really want to see
Because of this situation I would agree that there is no point for him to speak here why should he?
I don't know, ask Jeff - he's the one that posted the letter......
If one wants respect it might be wise to give it, making snide remarks, talking about something you no nothing about is not doing that.
Exactly how I feel about the snide remarks he makes at the end of his letter.....who else would he be talking to but Greasespot?
That has a lot to do with how much respect and time a person puts into things. I'd feel the same way, respect me we can talk insult me why waste the time no point it is obvious that they don’t care.
Exactly John Lynn, insult me why waste the time no point it is obvious that they don't care. Right back atcha....
I agree 100% with you that in this situation all need to come clean, if it ends up here fine,
Good assessment
but I don't think they owe this board a explanation.
Nor do I, but some members of CES brought this up, not me
they do owe their supporters one as you said.
Agreed
I would disagree that a great number of CES/STFI folks have been looking in on this forum
Over 15,000 views, come one, somebody is coming here
I see a few but in terms of their numbers it looks like a few to me.
Just cuz they don't post doesn't mean they are not here reading
There is nothing John could say that would please the crowd here and you know it, or any other offshoot leader for that matter.
Except to come clean
Do you go places that you are not welcome? really come on ..... why would one do that? Anything he says and you know how it is on the net, would be picked apart and twisted.
Because it is so obviously flawed and devilish. A mediocre Christian could tell you that.
Don't think so? Read his letter again nowhere does he say that anyone here is unworthy of dialogue.
If we are worthy of dialogue, why doesn't he just come clean right here and now? Why does he care, after all he just thinks we are a bunch of disgruntled posters.If he has nothing to hide, why not put it out there, he's the one who claims he is the REV., why be scared of us, unless there is reason to be
Not what he said, do you see anywhere where he said anyone was unworthy? I don't, and people wonder why he won't speak here?
Because he is a coward, if he can't control the conversation, then he has fear
He also never said he would not dialogue with people he simply asked to know who he was speaking with I find that a reasonable request in the internet age.
Oh please, quit making sickening excuses for him....like we might be internet stalkers or sex perverts, he knows who frequents the GSC, EX-TWI.....if he is such a MOG....he doesn't need you to defend him, he can come here and speak for himself.......he didn't even have the nerve to post himself, he had someone else do it...
I've said it before it makes the detractors of this site job very easy to dismiss this board as gossip, and unreliable when you prove their point for them.
And just how have we proved their point for them. By asking a man who claims to speak for God to be honest??
If we want GreaseSpot to be a help to others then integrity and honesty must be at the for front not jabs, disrespect and lies.
Exactly, consider that as you make excuses for him
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Tom Strange
That's a beautiful post therebutforgrace, I must've been typing while you were posting...
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