Letter from John Lynn

[therebutforgrace]

Hi Danny...et al..... It is not the purpose of this forum to 'care' or 'not care' what JL, JS, MG, KA, DG or anyone else 'thinks'.

EXCEPT in how that obeys or disobeys God and thus edifies or tears down God's PEOPLE who call those men/women their Christian leadership.

If you follow the thread, most of us here do not call them our Christian leadership; yet some of us have family and friends who do. Thus we care very much how they LIVE in relationship to our loved ones.

Sadly, Danny, you are one of many of us who, through the years, have felt that JL JS, MG, etc....don't think we're good enough. The good news of the present, however, is that --in large measure due to what has been exposed here at GreaseSpot--JL has begun to see this. I hope to begin seeing it in the others also.

I give God the praise for the beginning of JL's repentance...and for now, it appears that people are not continuing to be hurt by CES. (They mailed their monthly tape and magazine--and I don't agree with all that they print, but I'm talking about hurtful, in-person interactions. There is no PAC anymore; there is little 'counseling' that I've heard of, praise God, and of course there are fewer people now who look upon them as Christian leadership.)

They aren't my leadership and I won't attend any conferences or buy any of their books. But, as long as I hear no reports that people are continuing to be hurt, I will be patient with their individual and collective speed of walking away from and repentance for the Evil that they had grown to call Good.

God and my family were patient with mine.

Edited March 18, 2007 by therebutforgrace

[Estimated Prophet]

OK Everybody

this will be a long post

and then I will take a break.

My response to WordWolf is in green letters

"[i'm going to spend some time here because I find this an especially vile post]"

WordWolf

You've a right to your opinions everyone.

I suppose if you don't believe in an accounting for disobedience before the righteous judge at the Bema, then you'll need to get your ball bat or sharpen your pen and take matters into your own hands. That's the way of Iniquity and lawlwssness as I see it , but go ahead and have at it.

[i suppose so.

Of course, that's a bizarre distortion of what you THINK I believe based on a single off-hand comment made which

also suggested opening discussion on the subject, but whatever you need to salve your own conscience, I suppose.

Perhaps we will discuss the judgement seat in detail.

I think it would be very intesting and enlightening.

perhaps I did make a bizarre distortion of your comments,

but its the best I can figure as to why you don't trust the Lord to avenge the evils done.

It's far easier just to lull the conscience, rationalize the hurts of others, and go about

your own business. To actually follow ALL God's injunctions takes work, sometimes hurts-a lot,

and involves actually caring about other people. I imagine that's not for everyone.

(Not that I hold myself as an exemplar of this either.)]

What justifies your vile words towards me Mr Wordwolf?

How is that different from the motives that justified all the physical and verbal abuse that you are so outraged at CES for inflicting on people?

[Well, I already posted it, but it seems your comprehension skills didn't seem up to the task, earlier up the page or

so.

You said

"I recall discussing VPW with John Lynn 15 or so years ago,

and John wanting me to see how much "evil" was involved in the Way.

He didn't think I was seeing it for some reason.

I did, but

I still don't care to focus on that crap."

and I replied

"[in other words,

John Lynn himself was well aware of the evils in twi (and is now oblivious to evils in ces/stfi

even when specifics are brought to him by people who know better),

and you consider the evils done by vpw himself, lcm and the trained cadre under vpw

as INSIGNIFICANT.

How can you say John is oblivious when his letter admonished Mark G for missing the mark.

Also, I never said the evils done were insignificant.

I simply don't care to focus on that crap.

And you still fail to demonstrate how your attack upon me is any different than the attacks

you are so outraged at CES for doing upon insubordinates.

They also esteem my 'comprehension skills' in low degree.

They've never called me "vile" .

Would you approve of me reacting to your insults by knocking you on the head with a baseball bat? SHAME on YOU. Is that the instruction in righteosness that your superior comperehension skills have determined ?

Women were raped, women were drugged, THEN raped, children were beaten 1/2 to

unconsciousness, some developing long-term psychological damage,

some children were molested and twi'ers did a breakin to steal evidence against the

"minister" who did it, and relocated him-more than once,

one man blew his brains out because lcm insisted on repeatedly having sex with that man's wife,

vast coverups of all the above were done,

women were raped as the result of mandatory hitchhiking to LEAD-and vpw himself blew off

the accounts and did nothing to change the program,

one corps participant was crippled from injuries caused by an accident in an unsafe vehicle

used by the corps- then was kicked out of the corps and committed suicide,

people leaving twi were told it would be better if they just killed themselves,

the corps were treated like slave labour for life-by vpw himself,

and the doctrine of "the lockbox"-all these things were PERMISSABLE for the top echelon

and anyone else should remain silent-

besides other evils that escape me at the moment-

and you considered all of that INSIGNIFICANT.]

NO Sir.

But you are now making the bizarre distortions

You said

""All that evil is fairly minimal

when compared to the tremendous Truth that was held forth by Dr W.

Likewise John L."

and I replied

"[First of all, lives were ENDED, lives were LOST, lives were RUINED,

and you consider those "fairly minimal."

I thank God you are not in charge of determining the value of MY OWN LIFE.

I consider each person worth more than that-

even when they utter such callous, despicable things.

IICor 4 expresses what I am asserting, and I am in no way de-valuing anyone's life.

The affliction is light and temporary, and the reward is an eternal weight of Glory.

This is why I endure all your insults, WordWolf,

because I love your passion for truth and justice and your love for people,

and I admire your superior comprehension skills.

and your insults are fairly minimal compared to the good thoughts you have to share.

I simply ask that you extend the same courtesy towards John Lynn.

God grants him mercy. Why don't you?

To you, lives are EXPENDABLE

so long as the organization and its programs are reflecting the doctrines

you want.

That's what you just said.

NO.

But I have to wonder why that is what you are hearing?

Or are you just grandstanding?

Contentiousness has been described as a campainer

in the way it loves to sling the mud around in order to disgrace an opponent.

That is what you are doing to me right now, isn't it.

All I'm saying is that lives are saved by

Jesus Christ dieing on the Cross in order to redeem them.

Second of all,

you appear remarkably ill-informed as to the proven doctrinal errors in twi at the pen

of vpw, and the practical errors he did and taught were perfectly acceptable

(if you were in the inner cadre)

No, I've never been in the inner cadre except for three years as a Twig Coordinator

and are remarkably ill-informed to the degree that the entire package of twi-

excepting the permissiveness and policies I objected to-

were all ripped off from other Christians.

The entire pfal class was taken straight from the works of other Christians-

Leonard, Stiles, Kenyon, Bullinger- with vpw's name added and their names removed.

All the early twi books were taken directly from the books of other Christians-

with vpw's name added and their names removed.

All the later twi books were the work of twi research people-

with vpw's name added and their names never mentioned-

and not even mentioned by category (as in "the research dept worked on this".)

Remarkably, I am aware of most of that.

It is outrageous that VP actaully behaved so poorly.

I simply approve of the ability VPW had to Teach the Word and cause it to live in people's hearts.

And I give God the Glory for that.

Third of all,

you seem determined to make

THE SAME MISTAKE

and give John L a free pass.

People's lives were ruined? Some had breakdowns? Some were destroyed by

Momentus, "personal prophecies", and ridicule from the pulpit?

Oh, that's not important- he's teaching the Doctrine I respect!

Ignore the lost and damaged lives.

In conclusion, you're reflecting a position of

"I got mine-who cares if you suffer?"

All the pious posting on the internet can't wipe away a callous heart, nor excuse it.]

And what justifies the insults you continue to slap on me?

How is this unlike the ridicule from the pulpit that bothers you?

I am speaking the Truth of God's Word, and you call it pious posting.

And your conclusion is way off!!

My conclusion is that Jesus came to save sinners,

and we were all dead in our trespasses and sins,

and so we all need his redeeming love and mercy.

If that's too pious for you,

then that is your problem

You said

""it's the same old story, the same old spiritual battle,"

and I replied

"[it is indeed.

Lives are STILL being sacrificed at the whims of leadership,

and other lives are GLOSSING THAT OVER.

I consider that SPIRITUAL DARKNESS.

You may consider that something else- like "excusable" or "crap" or "minimal".

Jesus cares about ALL Christians- not just the leaders-

and would NEVER allow the one lost sheep to be cast aside.

He makes sure the lost sheep is found.

I completely agree

How do you think he'd address the attitude that suffering Christians are "minimal"?]"

As I said, He will respond with an eternal weight of glory

You said

"That is the truth I care about.

In the world, we are all guilty as sin.

In Christ we are cleansed from all impurities."

and I replied

"[And all the OTHER truths are those you care NOTHING about-

like the ongoing performance of evil-so long as you approve of the performer's doctrine

and delivery-

and it's not YOU or YOURS that are being victimized.

I bet your pious posturing tune would change in an INSTANT if one of those

so-called servants of God drugged and raped your wife or daughter.

Would it be "Oh, turn to Jesus, sweet one, he will deliver you from your suffering?"

NO-

it would be "He did WHAT? I'll take care of this-where'd I leave my pistol and baseball bat?"

And if your response would NOT be outrage,

then SHAME ON YOU.

SHAME ON YOU for having such a callous, atrophied heart that you can't see the need

to avenge the suffering of the innocent.]"

I consider the systematic excusing of evil as justification-

the vileness of your OWN words, the relabelling of "evil" as "good."

The vileness

is in your manner of interpreting my words.

'Consider what I say.

and may the Lord give you understanding in all things'

Isaiah 5:20

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

The injunctions to CEASE using our senses to discern good and evil,

contrary to God's instructions.

Agreed

Hebrews 5:14

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

So, call my words "vile" all you wish, if it salves your conscience.

It's just another example of swapping the labels.

And if you can't tell the difference between a warning OF evil-

which I've done and JAL and ces ONCE did-

and the inflicting of harm by inventing spiders up the nose and other things to savage a reputation,

then nothing else I say can show it to you.]

Perahps you haven't read my reaction to the treatment of Elizabeth Lynn.

I said it boils my Irish Blood.

Your insults and comments really don't bother me, WordWolf.

What happened to Elizabeth bothers me a lot.

If you would simply forgive, you could let go of all that baggage.

["1 Peter 5:8

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"

I can try it God's method,

or I can try it your method,

and use "a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep" (Proverbs)

when my fellow Christians are harmed and suffer.

or better yet, walk in the spirit of Meekness in order to restore people overtaken by the wicked one's schemes.

Your method's a LOT less work.]

Sounds like you are still following the letter of Way Corps training rather than the Prince of Peace.

We are all so quick to seize the error and magnify it way beyond proportion.

[Then you need your hearing checked.

Being a Christian is SOMETIMES about Peace- Shalom Shalom-

and sometimes about that peace motivating ACTION.

And speak for yourself when "magnifying error way beyond proportion."

I've confined my discussions to the letter of what's been documented-

both on this and other threads.]

So calling my heart "calloused" and my words "vile" and I reflect "spiritual darkness"

is not an exageration ? Well, maybe I should be bothered, but

I suggest you have three fingers pointing at yourself

for every one you've pointed at me.

'John Lynn insulted us because he won't post here"

Outrageous!!!

[Now that's a fine example of "magnifying way beyond proportion."

Kindly cite where I made such an outrageous claim.

I claimed JAL insulted us when he made a insults and attempted to

poison the well and claimed we'd only "take potshots" at him,

and say we "lack love and courage."

Forget already?

Check out the first post of this thread- the ending is where he said each of those.

I made no claims that refusing to post here, in and of itself, was an insult.

Kindly cite the post where such a claim was made by me.

I say it indicates certain things, but not that it's an insult.]

Thank you for clarifying that one for me.

and who is he that would lay anything to the charge of God's elect?

Evil is as Evil does.

["Galatians 2:11.

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed."

That Paul must have been soooo Evil, according to your measure.

"II Timothy 2:14

Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:"

There he goes again.

If Paul's a bad Christian by your lights, then I'd GLADLY join him and suffer your label, your stigma,

for actually daring to call good "good", evil "evil" and hold Christians-especially leaders-

accountable for their actions.]

Fair enough.

Though I have never intended to call evil good.

I believe it is good to show mercy.

Shall we overcome evil with evil?

or overcome evil with good?

[Overcome evil with good.

"Overcome" is a verb, and denotes ACTION.]

Sin and Death?

Life and Peace?

Your choice.

"Liar and Theif"? or

" Holy and Without Blame"?

[This "black and white" thinking has hobbled men of conscience for millenia.

"Liar" when a man lies,

"thief" when a man steals,

and "holy and without blame" when justified by God.

So if a man tells one lie, then he is always a liar?

Then how in the world can any of us be holy and without blame?

"Ephesians 4:28

Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth."

Seems God can tell the difference, and expects us to NOT lie, and NOT steal.

"Romans 6:11-16

11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Seems God does, at that.]

One can make a case for either side.

[seems the strength of the meaning of the verses is on the Christian being

responsible for NOT SINNING.]

I absolutely agree.

So what shall be done with the people who do sin?

When you swing your bat at the next sinner, Wolf,

imagine Jesus stepping in to take the blow for the object of your wrath.

I choose to believe the Word.

and I will reprove rebuke and admonish In season and Out of season when called upon.

( like right at this moment )

I am preacing the power of the Cross.

Foolish to some. ( rationalizing?)

A stumbilng block to others.

But to those who are being saved it is the power of God.

[And, naturally, skipping those parts of The Word that seem "too harsh" and are

inconvenient to one's conscience.]

You're not listening very well are you

Can anybody hear me? !!

My picture is of a skeleton in a jester's costume. (holding the harp unstrung)

It is a reflection of my my foolish preaching out of a broken and corrupted body.

See Gal 2:20 and I Cor 1-4, Eph 2

The Cross represents the ultimate of cruelty and abuse anyone ever inflicted upon another.

It represents the depravity of the unredeemed soul.

It represents the consequences of evil actions.

It also represents the ultimate expresion of Love,

that our Savior would take that sort of punishment on our behalf,

and then forgive the ones who killed him.

It represents the lamb of God

that takes away the sins of VPW and John Lynn and You and Me...

[And according to God's Word,

this is not an excuse to sin any further.

Correct.

Forgiveness is the first step towards the glory of God.

but one will never see the glory of God without first coming into his Holiness.

To continue in sin is to harden one's heart and to be alienated from the life of God.

Romans 6:1

"1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"

God forbid.

This means that JAL and WordWolf and Estimated Prophet are all

RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS, for good or ill,

for help or harm.

This includes actions and words.

Agreed

Matthew 12:36

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."

Which is why I say there are more than just rewards being handed out at the Bema.

There will also be an accounting for our wrongdoings which will not be pleasent.

I suggest you spend some time at the Cross Mr. Wordwolf,

and let its wonder working power soak in.

This is the same truth I spoke to John Lynn,

and he responded in much the same manner as you Mr. WordWolf.

Lets make sure everybody knows all the rotten things that were done.

[Let a wise man build his house on solid ground, and discern the face

of the seasons, and be warned against danger.

Ezekiel 33:1-11

"1Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:

3If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;

4Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

5He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

6But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

7So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.

8When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

9Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

10Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?

11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Warning people is in God's repertoire and in his instructions.]

Very well,

and I acknowledge that you are serving Christ as a watchman.

Really.

Is that the wisdom from above ? Hmmmmm

Now, after 15 years of attacking and being attacked, what has this method amounted to?

[if that's ALL you've gleaned from the past 15 years of JAL's life,

I'd recommend looking more closely.

I hold him responsible for a LOT more than you do, and I'm aware that he's spent a

considerable amount of time TRYING to do good.]

I am aware of much more than I choose to say here.

And I will fight for you too WordWolf,

just like I will fight for John Lynn,

and for the honor of Jesus Christ whom we like to think we are serving.

[Consider Ezekiel 33:13, and ask if you're really using ALL the proper tools....

"13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it."]

Consider Issiah 53:6

"All we like sheep have gone astray;

we have turned every one to his own way;

and the Lord hath laid on him

the iniquity of us all"

[GrouchoMarxJr]

It is not the purpose of this forum to 'care' or 'not care' what JL, JS, MG, KA, DG or anyone else 'thinks'.

EXCEPT in how that obeys or disobeys God and thus edifies or tears down God's PEOPLE who call those men/women their Christian leadership.

As a Christian, I tend to agree with this statement...however...the GreaseSpot Cafe consists of Christians, agnostics, atheists and "others"...each of us may have our own purpose for posting the opinions that we have but the purpose of the GreaseSpot Cafe is to "tell the other side of the story"...there is no consensus and no "statements of faith" here...whether or not JL,JS,MG,KA,DG or anyone else "obeys or disobeys God" ...is only expressed here by individual opinions...This is not a Christian forum.

[therebutforgrace]

Thanks, Groucho...I guess I meant, the purpose of this thread...

I'm still a newbie to the lingo....

[WordWolf]

Ok, let's see....

As I see it, Estimated Prophet

A) thinks whenever I object to his POSTS, I'm objecting to HIM

B) forgiveness of the brethren equals letting them continue harming people without consequence

C) confronting evil=bad. Exposing wrongs=bad. Dismissing them =good.

The reasons I say this follow, and proceed from the latest post, 3:05pm eastern 3/18.

BTW, he seems to be a fan of the word "vile."

When I said his position was one of lulling the conscience and going about one's own business

rather than act, he referred to that and said

"What justifies your vile words towards me Mr Wordwolf?

How is that different from the motives that justified all the physical and verbal abuse that you are so outraged at CES for inflicting on people?"

There's the "vile" thing, and my words were HARDLY strong ones.

Oddly, he can't distinguish between my posts and the screaming sessions of Momentus

nor the social stigmatizing of people in ces/stfi- the stuff that killed marriages and

humiliated people, in other words, what I'm objecting to.

Most people CAN.

If one's thinking remains black-and-white, distinguishing between the two is harder.

EP also thinks that action NOW-only after a public outcry has FORCED THEIR HAND-

qualifies as saying JAL was on top of things all the time.

When I said

"In other words,

John Lynn himself was well aware of the evils in twi (and is now oblivious to evils in ces/stfi

even when specifics are brought to him by people who know better),

and you consider the evils done by vpw himself, lcm and the trained cadre under vpw

as INSIGNIFICANT."

he responded with

"How can you say John is oblivious when his letter admonished Mark G for missing the mark?"

Well, EP,

it's because he was ASLEEP AT THE SWITCH for several years of this happening,

even to the degree that they interfered to some degree with his own marriage,

and saw no need to take action until FORCED TO.

I call that "being oblivious."

If a traffic cop let traffic zoom past him, running red lights, and there came a public

outcry because there were crashes at his post and people crippled,

and THEN he got tough with traffic,

most people would consider that "BAD."

=====

As to what I consider are more serious issues, we disagree greatly.

When it comes to the public outcry that FORCED CHANGE,

EP would have preferred no one ever spoke up, and no change to have been wrought!

"Also, I never said the evils done were insignificant.

I simply don't care to focus on that crap."

"And you still fail to demonstrate how your attack upon me is any different than the attacks

you are so outraged at CES for doing upon insubordinates."

Well, EP,

I criticized your posts. You put them in public, I disagreed vocally and soundly.

I confined myself to their subject, substance and presentation.

In ces/stfi, people claimed to speak for God, and declared how people were to live

their lives, and savaged the reputations of anyone who didn't fall in line.

Most people can distinguish between the two.

"They also esteem my 'comprehension skills' in low degree.

They've never called me "vile" ."

Neither have I-I've criticized your POSTS, and considered the positions that justify

them as terrible things, but other than your comprehension skills, I've not

criticized YOU. Failing to distinguish between the two justifies my comment

that your "comprehension skills" aren't up to scratch. BTW, I made THAT comment

when I answered your question, and you immediately asked it a second time.

"Would you approve of me reacting to your insults by knocking you on the head with a baseball bat? SHAME on YOU. Is that the instruction in righteosness that your superior comperehension skills have determined?"

See, EP,

that's black-and-white thinking in action again.

You're lumping ALL negative reactions together-

be they valid criticisms, public face-to-face humiliations, and physical violence.

1) You weren't insulted, except by the one comment about reading comprehension-

which seems, BTW, to have been borne out by the evidence.

All the other comments were perfectly valid criticisms, which you are free to discuss

rather than dismiss as "insults" -which of course is easier....

2) You introduced physical violence as a legitimate response to an insult,

then attempted to claim that was MY idea.

That's poor "debating", let alone "discussing".

Then said that was wrong of me to do- "shame on you."

But you put those words in my mouth.

Shame on YOU for doing so.

Can't you face what I REALLY said? Are you only able to address a poor distortion of

it? That's the famous "strawman" of debating, as many here know.

I expected better than that of you, EP, but at least you're capable of SOME

outrage. You don't have a heart of stone.

Now all you have to do is correctly identify what should be WORTHY of outrage

and direct it THERE.

==========

When EP claimed that the evils performed by vpw were not significant,

I responded with a laundry list off the top of my head of evils he performed,

all of which were dismissed by EP with an offhand comment.

I said you considered all of that INSIGNIFICANT.

EP replied

"NO Sir.

But you are now making the bizarre distortions."

Actually, EP, that's hardly a distortion when you yourself said

"All that evil is fairly minimal

when compared to the tremendous Truth that was held forth by Dr W.

Likewise John L."

You said "FAIRLY MINIMAL." I said "INSIGNIFICANT."

That's not "distorting." That's "saying what you didn't want to hear."

You replied "...I am in no way de-valuing anyone's life."

However, when you claim their hurts (and deaths) were "fairly minimal",

you ARE de-valuing them, whether you mean to or not.

"I simply ask that you extend the same courtesy towards John Lynn.

God grants him mercy. Why don't you?"

As I understand it, God's mercy extended towards Jeffrey Dahmer, who sat in

prison. I agree with God's mercy, and I agree that he should have sat in prison.

I consider your position to be one that confuses forgiveness with inaction,

where all possible consequences, all amends, are eliminated,

and those shown incompetent for any office are permitted to retain them

indefinitely, with a pat on the head and an injunction to do right.

I do NOT think Christians are called to do that. Forgive, yes. Permit injustices?

Never.

I even gave Scriptural documentation of my position.

All I'm saying is that lives are saved by

Jesus Christ dieing on the Cross in order to redeem them."

I agree, and consider that a NON-ISSUE as to actually addressing wrongs of

leaders in office. I say God expects us to use our brains and our consciences

while we are here.

When I pointed out that

"you appear remarkably ill-informed as to the proven doctrinal errors in twi at the pen

of vpw, and the practical errors he did and taught were perfectly acceptable

(if you were in the inner cadre)"

you replied

"No, I've never been in the inner cadre except for three years as a Twig Coordinator."

Let me rephrase that.

Those in the inner cadre were taught these performed evils were perfectly acceptable.

As to the proven doctrinal errors,

almost everyone here knows about them, because that information is easy to find.

We've discussed them HERE. Plenty of times.

So, you appear remarkably ill-informed on many subjects concerning the errors

vpw taught, and the many acts he performed which the Bible roundly condemns

(as well as many that it would have had these crimes been current 2000 years

ago, and match the pattern of what it DOES condemn).

======================

Here's our two positions reflected nicely.

I said

"...to the degree that the entire package of twi-

excepting the permissiveness and policies I objected to-

were all ripped off from other Christians.

The entire pfal class was taken straight from the works of other Christians-

Leonard, Stiles, Kenyon, Bullinger- with vpw's name added and their names removed.

All the early twi books were taken directly from the books of other Christians-

with vpw's name added and their names removed.

All the later twi books were the work of twi research people-

with vpw's name added and their names never mentioned-

and not even mentioned by category (as in "the research dept worked on this".)"

You replied

"Remarkably, I am aware of most of that.

It is outrageous that VP actaully behaved so poorly.

I simply approve of the ability VPW had to Teach the Word and cause it to live in people's hearts.

And I give God the Glory for that."

Somehow, I see in this pious answer the same response you gave to the evils

vpw did in destroying lives and treating humans like merchandise-because he wanted to.

He gets a free pass because God forgave him, and he taught some good Word,

and so those he crushed should just move on with their lives, it's really not so bad,

suffering now, since we face glory in the future....

Let's ignore the evils he did, since we should be focusing on godly things.

Let's never discuss the lives he crushed, since we look to higher ground.

If your higher ground, your more noble plane of spirituality, requires I turn a blind eye to

the suffering of others, and permit leaders to perform any act with impunity,

then I don't want any part of it. I don't want to live there, I could not live there,

and I don't see Paul the Apostle or JESUS CHRIST living there, either.

Both of them SPOKE UP and MADE CHANGES where they were able.

When I said

"you seem determined to make

THE SAME MISTAKE

and give John L a free pass.

People's lives were ruined? Some had breakdowns? Some were destroyed by

Momentus, "personal prophecies", and ridicule from the pulpit?

Oh, that's not important- he's teaching the Doctrine I respect!

Ignore the lost and damaged lives.

In conclusion, you're reflecting a position of

"I got mine-who cares if you suffer?"

All the pious posting on the internet can't wipe away a callous heart, nor excuse it."

You replied

"And what justifies the insults you continue to slap on me?"

I say none of that was an insult-it reflects accurately your posts and positions.

You WANT JAL to get a free pass. The ruined lives DON'T MATTER when it comes to

his office. The reason IS the Doctrine. The damaged lives ARE to be ignored.

All of that was phrased piously. And it's callous.

You may not LIKE that this is how the average person would see your position,

including the average Christian, but that's how it looks from outside of yourself.

I noticed that you objected to- without addressing it-

my comments that

"Lives are STILL being sacrificed at the whims of leadership,

and other lives are GLOSSING THAT OVER.

I consider that SPIRITUAL DARKNESS.

You may consider that something else- like "excusable" or "crap" or "minimal".

Jesus cares about ALL Christians- not just the leaders-

and would NEVER allow the one lost sheep to be cast aside.

He makes sure the lost sheep is found."

You agreed to the LAST part, but later objected to what I said once divorcing it

from its context.

"So calling my heart "calloused" and my words "vile" and I reflect "spiritual darkness"

is not an exageration ?"

Let's see.

Practical response to wrongs being committed?

Gloss it over, and soundly condemn those objecting to the suffering.

Many would call that "callous" regardless of the context.

Yes, I know, you've said you didn't like what Elizabeth suffered.

Bravo. You can FEEL.

But.......................

.......................what does one do when she's on your doorstep?

Does one simply give a nurturing speech, feel her pain, then send her home and

tell her to do nothing, and leave it to God to handle?

Or does one actually advocate DOING SOMETHING before someone else gets hurt?

Your recommendations-based on all posts and objections- sound like they'd

be the former, while mine would be the latter.

(Not that there's no place for healing for her heart, but I would not leave the

situation with ONLY that done.)

As to claims that what was said was "vile" and "spiritual darkness", well,

I explained those before.

Giving a free pass to vpw- the rapist, thief, and committer of other crimes-

because he can teach a great sermon-

most people would call that "vile".

Burying the problems to protect a sermonizer who's doing great sermons-

most people would call that "dark"- to say the least.

Perhaps you can't see that at all.

Perhaps you can ONLY see a world divided into healing and nurturing

and evil and darkness,

and righteous action doesn't exist in your worldview.

If that's the case, nothing I can say will make a difference to you.

I'm speaking a language to which you don't know the vocabulary.

=========================

We DID agree at one point.

When I said,

"Seems the strength of the meaning of the verses is on the Christian being

responsible for NOT SINNING."

you replied

"I absolutely agree."

Personally, I don't see how we can agree on that, based on the posts

preceeding this, but I'll accept that at face value.

We agree the Christian is supposed to NOT SIN.

Then you asked what's probably the question that lies at the crux of

our disagreements....

"So what shall be done with the people who do sin?"

I think that's worth an entire separate discussion.

For now, I say

"Hold them responsible for criminal acts they perform,

and for carrying out their offices properly.

Those who show incompetence in offices should be removed from them

so as to minimize harm to the brethren/humanity,

those who perform criminal acts should face the legal consequences.

Mercy within the legal system is possible, and should be weighed carefully

with the public good, and the specifics of the case."

It seems you're unlikely to agree with me here.

What would your version of that paragraph look like?

[rich]

Thanks Wolf for a great response. saved me some writting.

It's like what we see with the bod of ces. They hear it thier way and your way is the highway.

EP- What wolf said here is important and can open your eyes if you read it from the right perspective. In some of the stuff you write it sounds like you are one of the ces bod members.

A number of people have tried to point things out but you have chossen not to consider. Maybe what wolf wrote is what you don't know but everone else does and sees.

I pray his last response above will touch you in a heart and mind opening way that will be refreshing and healing

GOD BLESS

RJ

Edited March 19, 2007 by rich

[Estimated Prophet]

What I choose to consider is how Jesus Christ manifests himself in his elect.

that, in no way, renders "insigificant" the consequences of unrighteous behavior.

If you are hearing 'CES BOD -talk', or 'Way Brain-talk",

then meybe you need to stop looking at the flesh and start looking at the spirit of holiness.

The Way and CES really have declared the Truht that lives and abides forever,

in spite of their sinful ways.

If you think I am blind to the egregious acts of unrighteousness perpetrated by those who ought to know better, then you haven't heard me.

If you don't know what I am saying,

than perhaps you don't yet know Him , for whom I speak.

Honestly.

WordWof,

my conversation with you is not at all unlike my last conversations with the CES folks.

Not unlike the dressing downs I got at the hands of the Way Corps.

I've heard the likes of all this before,

but I when I choose to believe the Word,

the shield of Faith estinguishes the firey darts being flung at me.

"Vile". "Grab a Bat", " Shame on you for not being Outraged".

Those are all words you introduced, Wolf, not me.

Yet you twist it around to berate me for throwing them back at you.

Those in Indianna also spun my words to make me look ignorant and blind.

But with more love than what I am getting from you.

SO BE IT

Yes.

The problem is how to deal with believers who practice sin.

Your method,

or The way Corps Method, or the CES method, or The Momentous method,

or the Anti -Christ's method, or the Way of Cain's method...

( and I am not going all over the place here, I am just hitting the same point )

...

your method is contray to the Way of Life and Peace.

You find me out of line, so you insult me and berate me and do the 'tough love' of tearing me down so that you can build me back up.

Except the Way Corps never realy learned how to build people back up.

They prefer to leave them beaten into submission.

Would I ever choose to bring my sins to light with the liokes of you?

Hell NO !

and by the way....God BLess You Too.......

The Way of Life and Peace moves in unconditional Love to gently conform a soul to the image of Christ and cleanse it of all unrighteosness.

.

CES didn't like this approach any more than you.

They even removed me from their mailing list.

Not long after rejecting the Word I spoke to them,

the powers that be determined that Elizabeth was overtaken in a fault.

You know the story well.

They went the Way of Cain to attack their sister in Christ.

Here is a Word I shared with them in 1999.

One they even published in their contentious magazine.

One which John Lynn rebutted in the same magazine.

One which I believe John is able to know and understand more clearly today:

( those with eyes to see can see the transformation

in this Apostle and Techer of the Lord Jesus Christ

Glory Be to God in His People)

" For such is the will of God

that by doing right you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men.

Act as free men,

and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil,

but use it as bondslaves of God.

Honor all men,

love the brotherhood,

fear God,

honor the King,

...

for this finds favor,

if for the sake of conscience toward God,

a man bears up under sorrows

when suffering unjustly.

...

For you have been called for this purpose,

since Christ also suffered for you,

leaving you an example to follow in his steps,

who committed no sin,

nor was deceit found in his mouth,

and when being reviled,

he did not revile in return,

while suffering,

He uttered no threats,

but kept entrusting HImself to Him

who judges righteously;

and He Himself

bore our sins in His body

on the cross,

that we might die to sin

and live to righteousness;

by His wounds you were healed

For you were once continually straying like sheep,

but now you have returned

to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls."

IPeter 2:15ff

"Consider what I say,

for the Lord will give you understanding in everything"

IITimothy 2:7

[Bramble]

If you don't know what I am saying,

than perhaps you don't yet know Him , for whom I speak.

Honestly, to me it sounds like you are saying "Give the men and women who lead God's people and speak his Word a pass. Forgive them for the lives they destroy, because all sin is equal and they are no worse than you. They know the Word and speak it, that is what really matters. They are chosen by God with gift ministries and we in the body need to follow them, no matter what. Let them keep their positions of power over people, God will work it out at the Bema. Don't you trust God?"

If that's what you are speaking for your God, then no, I don't know him, nor want to.

[Tzaia]

Hello I'm back. I spent a few more days after Mark called me talking to people who had been involved in the administrative side of STF for a number of years. I listened to what people had to say and have come to the conclusion that no one is without blame. Apparently some people received 'benefits' that weren't available to all the employees and this was well-known and tolerated within the walls of the main office. Those who did complain found themselves jobless. I have had a problem with how things work there and now I believe it's a cultural thing and all are reaping what they have sowed.

I just don't think they get it. I don't feel anyone got far enough away from the Way mentality to allow their brain to wire differently. Ironically, after coming to that conclusion I read an article in the WSJ that confirmed my hypothesis is a viable reason.

[waterbuffalo]

Good gawd, ET and WW, why don't you two take it outside!

Only kidding....

[therebutforgrace]

TZ...what do you mean by "a cultural thing"?

And..how do you pronounce your name?

[Ham]

Apparently some people received 'benefits' that weren't available to all the employees and this was well-known and tolerated within the walls of the main office. Those who did complain found themselves jobless. I

Only confirms what I have thought.

Work for one of these groups? Better not complain to "God".

[WordWolf]

What I choose to consider is how Jesus Christ manifests himself in his elect.

that, in no way, renders "insigificant" the consequences of unrighteous behavior.

[You keep saying to give supposed leaders carte blanche to make infinite numbers of

mistakes-which tear down the lives of unregulated numbers of people-

with no consequence other than "pray more for them" and "God will address this

in the future". Sounds like-as long as they're in office- the consequences ARE

"insignificant." NOTHING, according to you, justifies removal of someone from an

office- nor does it justify ANY form of "confrontation."

Please note-as always-there's a RIGHT way and a WRONG way to handle a

"confrontation."

"Face-melting session"- WRONG way.

Ridicule them in public- WRONG way.

What Paul and Samuel and Jeremiah and JESUS CHRIST did- RIGHT way.

However, I don't see you saying ANY method-including the ones JESUS CHRIST used-

as correct.

Couple this along with the concept that a Christian should never have legal action initiated

against them, and you have a PERFECT setup for staying in power no matter what.

Leader engages in a character assassination?

Pray for him-God will take care of it.

Leader wastes the church's money on luxuries- cars, motorcycles, booze?

Pray for him-God will take care of it.

Leader forces himself on women?

Pray for him-God will take care of it.

Leader drugs and sodomizes men in the congregation?

Take no action against him, brother- remain constant in prayer.

Jesus' response to sin is "Bend over and take it, God will avenge....eventually."

You really don't get that this is all of the same cloth, do you?

You really don't get that everyone ELSE considers this hurtful, slothful, wrong,

irresponsible, and yes, SINFUL?]

If you are hearing 'CES BOD -talk', or 'Way Brain-talk",

then meybe you need to stop looking at the flesh and start looking at the spirit of holiness.

The Way and CES really have declared the Truht that lives and abides forever,

in spite of their sinful ways.

If you think I am blind to the egregious acts of unrighteousness perpetrated by those who ought to know better, then you haven't heard me.

[ignoring the actions of the flesh-the fruit- and the effects on the rest of the brethren

in favour of ONLY looking at the spiritual is a Gnostic interpolation.

God works with PEOPLE- people who sweat, weep, bleed, suffer, and die.

God's Word includes ACTIONS to take when Christians step out of line a little,

and out of line a lot.

However, you advocate dismissing ALL those actions.

Sounds like I hear you just fine.

God's Truth abides forever.

Agreed.

God's people are never supposed to correct bad conduct in leaders.

NOT agreed.

I'm getting every word you post.

And disagreeing.

And saying-for all the soft music I hear playing- this is NOT a reflection of Scripture-

including the Epistles and behaviour we are TOLD to perform.

When you and God disagree, whom am I supposed to side with?]

If you don't know what I am saying,

than perhaps you don't yet know Him , for whom I speak.

[i'm getting every word. That I'm not is an ERROR on your part.

I can't be held responsible for that.

And spare me the "I'm speaking for God" stuff-

you're contradicting His Word while "speaking for Him."]

Honestly.

WordWof,

my conversation with you is not at all unlike my last conversations with the CES folks.

[Which says nothing about whether either of us was right.

However, since a number of posters have also said the same thing here, I'd like to give

you some free advice.

When EVERYONE is saying you're wrong, maybe, just maybe, they really ARE right

and you're missing something important.]

Not unlike the dressing downs I got at the hands of the Way Corps.

[And a box of playing cards is not unlike a box of cigarettes.

If one only goes by the vaguest resemblances.

But digging deeper- and not merely watching the rudest shapes-

is not a strong point of some people.]

I've heard the likes of all this before,

but I when I choose to believe the Word,

the shield of Faith estinguishes the firey darts being flung at me.

'Galatians 2:11

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

II Timothy 4:14

Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

I Corinthians 5:11

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

You reject those verses, and retain your doctrine.

Sounds like-when it's inconvenient-

God's Word= "firey darts" and "Shield of Faith"="believing what I want."]

"Vile". "Grab a Bat", " Shame on you for not being Outraged".

Those are all words you introduced, Wolf, not me.

[Of course, taking anything out of context-

like the phrase "there is no God" from Psalms-

can completely change the meaning.

I called doctrines which excuse leadership when they cause the Christians to suffer

vile doctrines. And they are.

I said your response if your own CHILD was raped would be to look for your bat.

And it should be.

And if that was insufficient to move you beyond "pray for the rapist" and you never

advocated "stop him from raping-put him in jail",

then shame on you for not being outraged.

Mind you, I didn't say "I know you would not have this response,"

but your opacity to the idea that such a man would need jail time to deliver the people

from his evil deeds seems to indicate that you would NOT have such a response.

(So shame on you for not being outraged.)

Jesus showed anger when exposed to things worthy of being angry about.

And he TOOK ACTION.

Neither ANGER nor TAKING ACTION are sins.

We know Jesus never sinned, yet he was ANGRY and TOOK ACTION BASED ON IT.

(Review Jesus' response to the moneychangers in the temple, if you're rusty.)

Naturally,

you twisted around my phrases so that they don't reflect their meanings,

and become something objectionable.]

Yet you twist it around to berate me for throwing them back at you.

Actually, you MISUSED them-you misquoted me, you isolated them from

their sentences, you ignored the clear meanings- and just looked for ways

to include them in a response. For all your posting that nobody hears you-

"Can anyone hear me?" and how nobody seems to hear you-

it seems WE HEAR YOU JUST FINE.

WE COMPLETELY DISAGREE.

AND THE BIBLE DISAGREES TOO.

It seems YOU ARE THE ONE THAT HAS A HEARING PROBLEM.]

Those in Indianna also spun my words to make me look ignorant and blind.

[This is a messageboard.

You are free to review what you posted at leisure,

and review what I posted at leisure,

to see the relative merit of what is being said.

This is NOT a closed conversation where the words-once spoken- are lost in the air,

and whoever is the most glib carries the day.

You can review for SUBSTANCE.

If you dared.

Lots of people do exactly that.

And my posts with you have nothing to do with any conversations you had

with anyone in Indiana or anywhere else.

But, of course, with your speed to slap a label on me, finding any similarity with

something you ALREADY labelled is a convenient thing.

Black-and-white thinking is in full use there.

"He posted something I don't like, so all his posts are darkness.

They're just like some dark discussions I had years ago."

That's neither healthy nor mature thinking.

But, don't let me stop you-you're in control of your own mind there and are

responsible.

Ever consider what God will say when you've got to explain dismissing cries for justice?

I have.]

But with more love than what I am getting from you.

[Having seen what you think about Scriptural doctrines you disagree with,

I don't lose any sleep about you confusing my posts with a position of being "unloving."

Any parent who ever had to scold a child knows that sometimes something

doesn't LOOK loving when it IS.

But if the child is engaged in childish, black-and-white thinking,

they of course will despise even the most loving scolding.

Not that I'm your parent, nor you're my child, nor is this a scolding-

in case you were going to cherry-pick that out and distort the meaning again.

However, those who can see the love by a parent doing such can see that there

are times-like now-when being loving doesn't look quite so pristine.]

SO BE IT

[Oooo- I have a "so be it" I'm dealing with.....

*bangs a huge gong to complete the effect*]

Yes.

The problem is how to deal with believers who practice sin.

[Right.

I asked you your method.

I came up with an off-the-cuff answer from my own position.

I said

"Hold them responsible for criminal acts they perform,

and for carrying out their offices properly.

Those who show incompetence in offices should be removed from them

so as to minimize harm to the brethren/humanity,

those who perform criminal acts should face the legal consequences.

Mercy within the legal system is possible, and should be weighed carefully

with the public good, and the specifics of the case."

I then asked you what you would advocate,

without putting any words in your mouth.]

Your method,

or The way Corps Method, or the CES method, or The Momentous method,

or the Anti -Christ's method, or the Way of Cain's method...

( and I am not going all over the place here, I am just hitting the same point )

[The way corps was trained-many of them- to HIDE CRIMES and use the "lockbox."

CES is saying leaders should stay in office.

Momentus said to take people aside and berate them.

Anti-Christ???? He's posted a response to irresponsible office-holders?

Cain advocated ANYTHING?

The way of Cain is to covet money, like Balaam did (says so in Jude.)

I advocated holding people responsible for their actions, and removing

unfit office-holders when they proved unfit.

You said that's the same as all those methods.

That IS going all over the place.

Anyone EXCEPT YOU would see that.][/b]

...

your method is contray to the Way of Life and Peace.

[Not unless Paul was contrary, and Jesus, when they took necessary action.

Unless your "Way of Life and Peace" is a DIFFERENT path than THEY took.

In which case, I can pass on it.]

You find me out of line, so you insult me and berate me

[Actually, I disagreed, and said that what you posted was outrageous.

Your value as a person was untouched.

And you can't tell the difference between someone insulting and berating you

to your face, and a poster disagreeing vociferously with you?

That's sad. And a shame. You can't tell the difference between my posts

and Momentus, even. You just said so.

"Your method,

or The way Corps Method, or the CES method, or The Momentous method,"

Yes, that's what you said.

That's sad. And a shame.]

and do the 'tough love' of tearing me down so that you can build me back up.

[i addressed your posts. I never addressed you as a person, so I didn't tear YOU down.

(Identifying too closely with your posts, however, might make you confuse the two.)

And I never offered to build you back up from anything.

You're confusing me with Momentus again.

Which is sad. And a shame.]

Except the Way Corps never realy learned how to build people back up.

They prefer to leave them beaten into submission.

[i noticed that.

MOST of them were trained POORLY.

A minority, despite their poor training, came out compassionate and beneficial.

Sometimes they post here.

You skipped over that because the Way Corps is labelled "black" and the minority

interferes with sloppy labelling-which is most labelling, really, but especially

what's in use here.]

Would I ever choose to bring my sins to light with the liokes of you?

Hell NO !

[Would I ever ASK YOU TO?

Hell no!

I don't know what you're reading, or hearing at this point- it's not even RESEMBLING

what I wrote....]

[*Achoo!*]

and by the way....God BLess You Too.......

[Thank you.]

The Way of Life and Peace moves in unconditional Love to gently conform a soul to the image of Christ and cleanse it of all unrighteosness.

.

[And when an individual comes in as Lord Over God's Heritage, "vicious wolves not sparing the flock",

(I Peter 5:3, Acts 20:29),

does it advocate leaving him as Lord Over God's Heritage,

and letting him savage the flock?

Your doctrine says "Yes", and has been saying so for several days.

(I was hoping it didn't, but there you go.)]

CES didn't like this approach any more than you.

[if you're advocating THAT, most Christians in history, and most Christians alive today,

would disagree with you.]

They even removed me from their mailing list.

Of course, we're expected to believe that this is the SOLE reason they removed you

from their mailing list, because you responded with unconditional love.

Right.]

Not long after rejecting the Word I spoke to them,

the powers that be determined that Elizabeth was overtaken in a fault.

You know the story well.

They went the Way of Cain to attack their sister in Christ.

[Which, of course, means we let them and DO NOTHING TO STOP THEM,

right? That's the way advocated by Estimated Prophet.]

Here is a Word I shared with them in 1999.

One they even published in their contentious magazine.

One which John Lynn rebutted in the same magazine.

One which I believe John is able to know and understand more clearly today:

( those with eyes to see can see the transformation

in this Apostle and Techer of the Lord Jesus Christ

Glory Be to God in His People)

" For such is the will of God

that by doing right you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men.

Act as free men,

and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil,

but use it as bondslaves of God.

Honor all men,

love the brotherhood,

fear God,

honor the King,

...

for this finds favor,

if for the sake of conscience toward God,

a man bears up under sorrows

when suffering unjustly.

...

For you have been called for this purpose,

since Christ also suffered for you,

leaving you an example to follow in his steps,

who committed no sin,

nor was deceit found in his mouth,

and when being reviled,

he did not revile in return,

while suffering,

He uttered no threats,

but kept entrusting HImself to Him

who judges righteously;

and He Himself

bore our sins in His body

on the cross,

that we might die to sin

and live to righteousness;

by His wounds you were healed

For you were once continually straying like sheep,

but now you have returned

to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls."

IPeter 2:15ff

"Consider what I say,

for the Lord will give you understanding in everything"

IITimothy 2:7

Naturally,

one would ask what relevance it has to this discussion- what to do with unfit leaders-

and what anyone's response to it-which you skipped- had to to with this discussion.

But I WOULD expect JAL to advocate a "let's just put it past us" position now,

since it would benefit him,

when it wasn't HIS ox getting gored last time.

(He was the gorer, not the goree, when he advocated action....)

[Tzaia]

TZ...what do you mean by "a cultural thing"?

And..how do you pronounce your name?

It is hard to explain what it is like in the home office. I haven't been there for over 2 years and I have no desire to return for any reason. There is no one there I care to interact with. While they are pleasant to everyone, they are real with no one, but they think they are. They tend to insulate themselves from the outside world. The dynamics in the office are weird. I could never work in there full time because full time consists of all time. The staff is who they live with, sleep with, eat with, worship with, and socialize with. If you pulled away in any of those areas, you became an outsider.

I was never an 'insider' to the Way culture, but I knew well how it felt like to be an outsider. I started feeling the same way around many of the office staff that I felt around Corp people - that they didn't think I was spiritual enough because I hadn't chosen their path. It was just a vibe that I was getting.

I didn't buy into the whole STFI thing and didn't hide that. I felt they were doing some good, but not to the point where I would leave the church that I was involved in and participate in fellowships or conferences. The one time I did attend a conference, supposedly as a speaker(that never happened due to poor planning), I was so uncomfortable that I vowed to never do it again. I am rarely uncomfortable in situations, so for me to feel so out of my element, served as a wake up call. I had finally gotten to the point where for me, they were all just plain weird. Being around them just did not feel right.

I didn't fit in and ultimately I didn't want to fit in.

TzI ya is how I pronounce it.

[WordWolf]

BTW, some discussion of "Personal Prophecy" turned up here....

[Allan]

For the last 25 years I have moved in ALL MANNER of Christian circles and feel I have learnt to discern a Christian 'whack job' pretty well. If it speaks, promotes and quotes like a 'whack job'...well...with EP I rest my case :)