I too must applaude Johns heart - but to call it 'pontificating' I would have to politely disagree. What I read was an outpouring of heart - and yes, we all know that 'sincerity is no guarantee for truth' (to coin a worn out phrase), however the words that were spoken were spoken with love and were chosen very carefully as to not be offensive. Thats love in any language in my book...
I would have to ask – is that the Spirit of God moving you to do so? How do you know? And what do you mean by "check in with Him all the time"?...Alright so - you think you've spotted a false prophecy by noting they're recommending a divorce – what if they recommend someone marry a specific person?...I don't know – there's so many things here that just invite confusion and deception – and don't refer to a biblical standard…some bold assumptions really…
...How is any of this confusion profitable to the church? I know from experience how TWI is just a world of confusion and deception from setting their own standards of truth and practice and it looks to me like the reason for CES being in a mess. You still haven't convinced me that it is the same thing as the prophecy of Bible times. II Peter 1:20 leaves no room for any confusion, assumptions or what have you - when it says, "no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will" - people did not decide on the message or have practice sessions - it did not originate from human effort. But as it says they were "moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."
...
I think your reference to I Thessalonians 5:20 "do not despise prophetic utterances" may largely fall into the written Word category. The MacArthur Study Bible notes on this verse:
T Bone,
I'm sorry to keep you waiting,
but have been experiencing some technical difficulties the past few days.
Thanks for sharing your insight and research.
I love the scripture , believe me.
I have been accused of 'worshipping the bible'
It is my standard of faith and practice with which I encourage everybody to utilize to recognize right and wrong, good and evil, and to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Perhaps the scholars are correct, and I Thess 5:20 is referencing holy scripture.
I just can't agree with that.
1. Up until Paul wrote those words, there was no scripture yet addressed to The Christian Church.
( except maybe James according to some scholars ) but plenty of prohetic utterance.
2. The First Century Church did not have the abundance of bibles at hand as we enjoy,
and by and large most of the prophetic comunication would likely have been spoken and not read.
Let me also emphasise this:
"Hold Fast to that which is Good."
It seems to me tht many posters, and also Dr J. "s report
have dismissed any and all the good aspects of S&T,
and held fast to the Bad,
and even invented other bad things to say about people whom God Loves,
and for whom Jesus Christ died for,
people who have demonstrated a diligent effort to serve Jesus Christ and glorify God
over a long period of time.
That does not excuse the harm that has been caused by sinful actions.
But the will of God remains clear.
"hold fast to that which is Good"
" whatsoever things are good....think on these things "
" forbearing one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of Peace"
Is that so hard to do?
God Have Mercy !
I know one BOD member of S&T in paticular,
who has read these posts and been hurt by what he read.
" kick 'em when they're down" ?!!
not in my bible.
not according to any holy prophet I know.
It's very cool that you referenced Romans 5, T Bone
( and thanks for the kindness and grace that permeates your posts btw)
which demonstrates how we have access with boldness into a righteous and sanctified relationship with the Father and the Son.
Sometimes, while "checking in" with them
one might receive a word of knowledge or wisdom, or discern a spirit;
and be instructed to speak that word to someone else.
What a wonderfully powerful blessing that is.
That is how prophecy is rightly done.
" for he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God
approved by men" Romans 14:18
When I said the standards have been relaxed since Deut.
I was not indicating that its ok to sin now-a -days.
I was referring to the fact that we don't stone to death sinful people any more.
Romans 5 again addresses how we have been justified freely.
Thanks for pointing that out.
and even when reading the scripture,
things will get mixed up.
Yet I have found the Truth has a way of making itself known
What would the holy God who created the heaven and earth do without you to clarify all the mixing up, people get into??
hahaha
"over a long time" yeah your buddies, cant kick them when they are down you all need one another to stand up much???
defines a cult dear.
haha
no one really believes after all hmm? haha just your circle of what you think and who you think you know.
you pick and chose what fits into your agenda clearly like STF.
and the atitude bro the attitude has to go.
love who YOU chose is good enough, and quickly dismiss all others(no not me I could care less what you think)
keep your checking in.. bro.. just in case . hahaha you really believe they are THE most high for God and dare I say ONLY ones who have the truth still dont you?
I too must applaud Johns heart - but to call it 'pontificating' I would have to politely disagree. What I read was an outpouring of heart - and yes, we all know that 'sincerity is no guarantee for truth' (to coin a worn out phrase), however the words that were spoken were spoken with love and
were chosen very carefully as to not be offensive.
Thats love in any language in my book...
God bless :)
That, apparently, must include the end, when he addressed the GSC crowd specifically
and said
anonymous people who lack the love and courage to identify themselves in interacting with me.
Let us remember the loyalty and integrity of JOHN L. and JOHN S. after they were fired from twi , talk about kicking a man when they were down hahahaha
I have a tape that John S. confesses his adultery and sexual sin want to hear it??? paper on adultery talk about hypocrits!!!
they gossiped and rode that train for all its worth!!!
you jumped on didnt you?
one cult to another.. they slashed all of twi and now you want integrity and compassion??? hahaha looking for a job or what? hear tell they have openings!
your agenda or hopes of condeming one for speaking the truth about your buddies fail because what you ACCUSE is EXACTLY the very foundation of how CES BEGAN!!!
what would happen if STF fell off the face of the earth no more of them around they didnt happen?
God doesnt live here EP.
sorry bro but countless men through the ages have tried to work their way into the very Grace Jesus FREELY GAVE US as a gift from his love for us. end of discussion.
it makes money to run programs generate tapes and hold seminars you get to live tax free and accountable to only those they chose to be.
just like you live.
in REALITY world God is our God and even if we have to live in a desert for forty years He is still ABLE>
but they wanted to go back to EGYPT . WHY?? because it was safe there it was what they knew as home it was where they had relationships and life was easier than believing God would indeed send His blessing every single day.
go back to EGYPT all you want it doesnt change the fact I am living in the promised land of deliverence from men who play jesus and hurt Gods beloved.
but have been experiencing some technical difficulties the past few days...
...Perhaps the scholars are correct, and I Thess 5:20 is referencing holy scripture.
I just can't agree with that.
1. Up until Paul wrote those words, there was no scripture yet addressed to The Christian Church.
( except maybe James according to some scholars ) but plenty of prohetic utterance.
2. The First Century Church did not have the abundance of bibles at hand as we enjoy,
and by and large most of the prophetic comunication would likely have been spoken and not read.
Let me also emphasise this:
"Hold Fast to that which is Good."
It seems to me tht many posters, and also Dr J. "s report
have dismissed any and all the good aspects of S&T,
and held fast to the Bad,
and even invented other bad things to say about people whom God Loves,
and for whom Jesus Christ died for,
people who have demonstrated a diligent effort to serve Jesus Christ and glorify God
over a long period of time.
That does not excuse the harm that has been caused by sinful actions.
But the will of God remains clear.
"hold fast to that which is Good"
" whatsoever things are good....think on these things "
" forbearing one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of Peace"
Is that so hard to do?
God Have Mercy !
I know one BOD member of S&T in paticular,
who has read these posts and been hurt by what he read.
" kick 'em when they're down" ?!!
not in my bible.
not according to any holy prophet I know...
...Sometimes, while "checking in" with them
one might receive a word of knowledge or wisdom, or discern a spirit;
and be instructed to speak that word to someone else.
What a wonderfully powerful blessing that is.
That is how prophecy is rightly done....
Good to hear back from you, Estimated Prophet. Sorry to hear about your having technical problems – can't help yah there, Bro' – I mean to say – I'm known for hacking into computer systems…but that's with a hacksaw…that's all I know to do with these darn things when they get uppity.
I respect your disagreeing with some scholars' comments on I Thessalonians 5:20. I'll throw another one at you in a moment – but just wanted to say I like hearing other viewpoints myself – may not always agree with them – but it's fun to track their reasoning on a topic. And there's many things in the Bible that I don't think can be nailed down – with a definitive answer.
Don't get me wrong – I love studying the Bible too and reading commentaries and books on theology – but it's a good thing I don't make a living writing books on theology – there's so much I don't understand – I'd have to change to a penname like Guesstimating Theologian…Anyway one of the unsettled issues for me is the manifestations of the Spirit – whether or not they're for today's Church. Which just about brings me to another theologian's book – but before I cite him I'd like to invite you to the Doctrinal forum – where discussions like this belong [GSC folks, please bear with me on some more doctrinal details here]…[you know - I started a thread in Doctrinal called Decision Making and the Will of God – some of my inspiration for that thread came from discussions here on CES and personal prophecy.]
The following excerpts are from Christian Theology by Millard J. Erickson, 1985, Baker Books, pages 878-881. In my opinion the author presents a fairly balanced view:
"…On the other side of the argument are those who reject the idea that the Holy Spirit is still dispensing the charismatic gifts. They argue that historically the miraculous gifts ceased; they were virtually unknown throughout most of the history of the church. When they were present, it was generally in isolated groups characterized by unorthodox beliefs on a number of major doctrines…
…Some theologians would argue for the passing of the miraculous gifts on the basis of Hebrews 2:3-4: "salvation…was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his own will." The thrust of this argument is that the purpose of the miraculous gifts was to attest to and thus authenticate the revelation and the incarnation. When that purpose had been fulfilled, the miracles being unnecessary, they simply faded away. [page 878]
…In my judgment it is not possible to determine with any certainty whether the contemporary charismatic phenomena are indeed gifts of the Holy Spirit. There simply is no biblical evidence indicating the time of fulfillment of the prediction that tongues will cease. It is questionable at best to conclude on the basis of the difference between the verbs in I Corinthians 13:8 that tongues will cease at one time, and prophecy and knowledge at another. Nor is the historical evidence clear and conclusive. The situation here is somewhat like the situation with respect to the doctrine of apostolic succession. There is a great deal of evidence on both sides. Each group is able to cite an impressive amount of data which are to its advantage, bypassing the data presented by the other group. This lack of historical conclusiveness is not a problem, however. For even if history proved that the gift of tongues has ceased, there is nothing to prevent God from reestablishing it. On the other hand, historical proof that the gift has been present through the various eras of the church would not validate the present phenomena…
…In the final analysis, whether the Bible teaches that the Spirit dispenses special gifts today is not an issue of great practical consequence. For even if he does, we are not to set our lives to seeking them. He bestows them sovereignly; he alone determines the recipients . If he chooses to give us a special gift, he will do so regardless of whether we expect it or seek it. What we are commanded to do [Ephesians 5:18] is to be filled with the Holy Spirit [a present imperative, suggesting ongoing action].This is not so much a matter of our getting more of the Holy Spirit; presumably all of us possess the Spirit in his entirety. It is rather, a matter of his possessing more of our lives…" [pages 880, 881]
End of excerpts
That is more or less where I'm at on this issue. I hold to a reserved approach. I see legitimate points on both sides – and figure God is in charge and will do what He pleases with or without my feeble attempts of helping Him out. Yes, we should "examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good" as I Thessalonians 5:21 says – but I also want to point out a logical flow into the next verse [verse 22], "abstain from every form of evil." As a Christian, God expects me to examine everything carefully – to embrace what is good and to shun anything evil. Romans 14: 5 tells us "…Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind."
…I'm not trying to be disrespectful or give you a hard time with all this. It's just that at this point – what stands out the most to me is the confusion and harm that's been generated by this personal prophecy stuff. I think this falls into the category of what God says I should shun. I remain unconvinced that it's something from the Holy Spirit. While I agree with the sentiment to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace I would also add that the unity it refers to is FROM the Spirit – it is something originating from God – not legislated by leadership, or at the expense of truth, or agreeing not to disagree. The impression that I get of CES from comments on these threads is the similarity of CES leadership to TWI leadership – where people are expendable, and the role of leadership becomes more a status symbol of achieving super-spirituality, a royal priesthood. Though words may paint up this brand of leadership as a humble position of service - in practice it plays out as a position of power and influence, supported and served by those who rank lower in this hierarchy of human design.
Here's a fast reply...there are thousands of drums beating tonight throughout Africa, only a few hundred outside my door. None of them have heard of ces, twi, or the Bible! What am I to tell them? They can't type gs or afford to go on line. Can any of you intellectuals out there help me?
That's a good idea, but I think they're more interested in where their next meal is coming from! Besides, between Allah and the microphone, Jesus doesn't get a lot of playtime. The "trinitarians" are scouting around but I don't think with much success. But ideas are always welcome. By the way...has anyone come up with an idea about how to remove Islamic microphones on Moskies blasting Allah propoganda starting at 0530 AM?
…I'm not trying to be disrespectful or give you a hard time with all this. It's just that at this point – what stands out the most to me is the confusion and harm that's been generated by this personal prophecy stuff. I think this falls into the category of what God says I should shun. I remain unconvinced that it's something from the Holy Spirit. While I agree with the sentiment to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace I would also add that the unity it refers to is FROM the Spirit – it is something originating from God – not legislated by leadership, or at the expense of truth, or agreeing not to disagree. The impression that I get of CES from comments on these threads is the similarity of CES leadership to TWI leadership – where people are expendable, and the role of leadership becomes more a status symbol of achieving super-spirituality, a royal priesthood. Though words may paint up this brand of leadership as a humble position of service - in practice it plays out as a position of power and influence, supported and served by those who rank lower in this hierarchy of human design.
T Bone,
I really appreciate the thought you put into your posts.
Thanks.
You note:
" It's just that at this point – what stands out the most to me is the confusion and harm that's been generated by this personal prophecy stuff. "
I consider that a valid point of view based upon what has been discussed here at the Grease Spot.
From my perspective,
what stands out is the genuine edification, exhortation, and encouragement that occurs when genuine prophecy is manifested.
Bumpy,
Even in Africa with limited access to books and computers,
the spirit of the Living God will work within you to speak a blessing to your neighbor.
Our Almighty God is able to manifest his love and goodness where you are, and I pray that your presence reflects His light and the rhythm of the drums respond in a new and fresh glory to God.
Consider Jesus with the woman at the well in John 4.
" ...ye worship ye know not what..."
but ask Jesus and he will give any and all "living water."
Prophetic utterance is a wellspring of wisdom flowing from the fountain of living waters
Yes there are deceitful influences that cause confusion and harm,
but avoiding prophecy will not put an end to that.
So please don't let that stop you from pressing into Him with whom we have to do;
Invented bad things to say about people that God loves??? Where? When? Who?
Have you really not noticed Rascal?
I have a strong suspicion that you are baiting me to open a can of worms.
Hmmm
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your question is sincere,
and will give you this one recent example.
( and ask Pond to forgive me for the disturbance this post will cause)
no one really believes after all hmm? haha just your circle of what you think and who you think you know.
you pick and chose what fits into your agenda clearly like STF.
and the atitude bro the attitude has to go.
love who YOU chose is good enough, and quickly dismiss all others(no not me I could care less what you think)
keep your checking in.. bro.. just in case . hahaha you really believe they are THE most high for God and dare I say ONLY ones who have the truth still dont you?
hmmmm
so I think
' they are the most high for God and the only ones who have the truth'
Nope. Sorry. That is completely not the case.
these comments, in my considered opinion, are based only upon (dare I say)
Even in Africa with limited access to books and computers,
the spirit of the Living God will work within you to speak a blessing to your neighbor.
Our Almighty God is able to manifest his love and goodness where you are, and I pray that your presence reflects His light and the rhythm of the drums respond in a new and fresh glory to God.
Consider Jesus with the woman at the well in John 4.
" ...ye worship ye know not what..."
but ask Jesus and he will give any and all "living water."
Prophetic utterance is a wellspring of wisdom flowing from the fountain of living waters
Yes there are deceitful influences that cause confusion and harm,
but avoiding prophecy will not put an end to that.
So please don't let that stop you from pressing into Him with whom we have to do;
and to flow in the spirit of His Way,
namely Jesus Christ.
Thanks for the advice, but a quick physical walk down one of my roads in life over here, will possibly convince you it's a lot easier and safer to keep preaching behind a keyboard. All that flowing wisdom sounds great, I just wish you were here to help me implement more of it. I keep telling people to expand their comfort zones and come visit but no takers so far...except MrtheEvan from Keeenya!
I guess I don't understand the whole personal prophecy thing. It requires another person to prohesy about your life, right?, Words of edification, exhortation and comfort( except for when they aren't and involve spiders etc)
Why do you need another person to prophesy for your life? Does your God nor deal with you directly? It has to be through someone else? So instead of trying to hear directly from your God, you go to someone else?
Seems way to easy to me. Seems like some kind of bypass in the relationship to your diety. Instead of doing the hard work of learning to listen, you go to someone else, who hopefully has done the hard work?
More --some of the things we've read about the practice involve someone having visions about another person, then taking action against that other person as a result of the visions, speaking about the visions to other people, etc. Now, that looks like behind the scenes manipulation to me. 'God told me so & so was eeeviiill'. And others listened and took action.
All people generated. SHE hears from the diety, we must listen to HER.
Wouldn't your deity tell you personally, if your spouse or another person in your life was truly evil?
The whole set up looks like an open door to let people manipulate and abuse each other! Where's the safe guards?
they had one of the PP practice session at a fellowship I went to.
I left when they began ..
but after wards I spoke to the guy who owned the home and ran the fellowship, he was angry and looked beatedn down.
He said so and so is not a prophet.
this other guy was his friend and not from the way background well what happened was his friend did a prophecy on this guy that he didnt like !
it hurt him and he did not agree with what was said at all.
so he dismissed the words from God.
why couldnt this work for a PP you liked? oh that sounds good so listen to it.. oh that sounds bad for me so lets practice some more your not right yet!
oh come n.
I do not want to think God needs practice to tell his people anything.
it is all about what people want to hear, and who is who UNTILL it goes bad like in the case of KG and the spiders.
uh oh .
no safe gaurds and quite dangerous because the pressure to perform is there just like it was in the clas to sit.
And another thing! I keep reading about, people are fallen, they make mistakes, they need forgiveness etc.
OKAY, fine. But, if I made a mistake that totally mangled some one's life, that involved meetings and trying to get this person to obey my words AND I came to the realization that I had nearly destroyed another person...well, that is a little more than just a mistake to be forgiven, on with the next. That is a destructive way of belief and living.
I would think realizing something like that would cause a profound change in some one's life, not just a 'Oh, blew it there, but God forgives me. I'm a leader, it's to be expected that sometimes I'll hurt people...What's next on my leadership plate?'
Call me a Pollyanna, but I think that there are many many people who go through life without causing huge damage to others. Plain, ordinary non-leadership people.
Or maybe I've just known some exceptional people...
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Mr Incredible
I too must applaude Johns heart - but to call it 'pontificating' I would have to politely disagree. What I read was an outpouring of heart - and yes, we all know that 'sincerity is no guarantee for truth' (to coin a worn out phrase), however the words that were spoken were spoken with love and were chosen very carefully as to not be offensive. Thats love in any language in my book...
God bless :)
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excathedra
john has always had a way with words
ps. how's his spider lady doing ?
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Estimated Prophet
T Bone,
I'm sorry to keep you waiting,
but have been experiencing some technical difficulties the past few days.
Thanks for sharing your insight and research.
I love the scripture , believe me.
I have been accused of 'worshipping the bible'
It is my standard of faith and practice with which I encourage everybody to utilize to recognize right and wrong, good and evil, and to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Perhaps the scholars are correct, and I Thess 5:20 is referencing holy scripture.
I just can't agree with that.
1. Up until Paul wrote those words, there was no scripture yet addressed to The Christian Church.
( except maybe James according to some scholars ) but plenty of prohetic utterance.
2. The First Century Church did not have the abundance of bibles at hand as we enjoy,
and by and large most of the prophetic comunication would likely have been spoken and not read.
Let me also emphasise this:
"Hold Fast to that which is Good."
It seems to me tht many posters, and also Dr J. "s report
have dismissed any and all the good aspects of S&T,
and held fast to the Bad,
and even invented other bad things to say about people whom God Loves,
and for whom Jesus Christ died for,
people who have demonstrated a diligent effort to serve Jesus Christ and glorify God
over a long period of time.
That does not excuse the harm that has been caused by sinful actions.
But the will of God remains clear.
"hold fast to that which is Good"
" whatsoever things are good....think on these things "
" forbearing one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of Peace"
Is that so hard to do?
God Have Mercy !
I know one BOD member of S&T in paticular,
who has read these posts and been hurt by what he read.
" kick 'em when they're down" ?!!
not in my bible.
not according to any holy prophet I know.
It's very cool that you referenced Romans 5, T Bone
( and thanks for the kindness and grace that permeates your posts btw)
which demonstrates how we have access with boldness into a righteous and sanctified relationship with the Father and the Son.
Sometimes, while "checking in" with them
one might receive a word of knowledge or wisdom, or discern a spirit;
and be instructed to speak that word to someone else.
What a wonderfully powerful blessing that is.
That is how prophecy is rightly done.
" for he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God
approved by men" Romans 14:18
When I said the standards have been relaxed since Deut.
I was not indicating that its ok to sin now-a -days.
I was referring to the fact that we don't stone to death sinful people any more.
Romans 5 again addresses how we have been justified freely.
Thanks for pointing that out.
and even when reading the scripture,
things will get mixed up.
Yet I have found the Truth has a way of making itself known
to those with eyes that see and ears that hear
and hearts that understand.
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pond
yeah sorry I cant resist EP
What would the holy God who created the heaven and earth do without you to clarify all the mixing up, people get into??
hahaha
"over a long time" yeah your buddies, cant kick them when they are down you all need one another to stand up much???
defines a cult dear.
haha
no one really believes after all hmm? haha just your circle of what you think and who you think you know.
you pick and chose what fits into your agenda clearly like STF.
and the atitude bro the attitude has to go.
love who YOU chose is good enough, and quickly dismiss all others(no not me I could care less what you think)
keep your checking in.. bro.. just in case . hahaha you really believe they are THE most high for God and dare I say ONLY ones who have the truth still dont you?
lol
the real world is fun to.
not nearly so drama ridden tho sorry.
hahaha
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WordWolf
That, apparently, must include the end, when he addressed the GSC crowd specifically
and said
Thank you for playing, and have a nice day.
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pond
Let us remember the loyalty and integrity of JOHN L. and JOHN S. after they were fired from twi , talk about kicking a man when they were down hahahaha
I have a tape that John S. confesses his adultery and sexual sin want to hear it??? paper on adultery talk about hypocrits!!!
they gossiped and rode that train for all its worth!!!
you jumped on didnt you?
one cult to another.. they slashed all of twi and now you want integrity and compassion??? hahaha looking for a job or what? hear tell they have openings!
your agenda or hopes of condeming one for speaking the truth about your buddies fail because what you ACCUSE is EXACTLY the very foundation of how CES BEGAN!!!
hahahaha
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WordWolf
I have 2 responses, both from the heart.
A) It's about fricking TIME someone at ces/stfi actually FEEL SOMETHING when hearing about
lives being ruined, and doctrine that did damage- that THEY PUSHED.
THEIR doctrines and THEIR practices are hurting people.
Not EVERY person-but does that excuse them?
Are those who ARE hurt "disposable"?
What we've heard so far is SPIN CONTROL.
"Our doctrine is correct."
"By my book."
"Join our group if you really want to know what we teach."
All of that has all the warmth of an infomercial.
If they care about the PEOPLE more than they care about the organization,
some hurt feelings are the LEAST we can expect from this.
Then again, it's not like Momentus grads actually are experts in trying to not-hurt people,
or to fix what they break in a way that doesn't hurt OTHERS more in exchange for making
themselves feel justified.
B) Aw, you were caught damaging people's lives,
or ASLEEP AT THE SWITCH,
and people said some things about you for your laziness or incompetence....
Cry me a river.
You volunteered to LEAD.
That means you put THEM as paramount, not YOU, not the ORGANIZATION.
Every reaction so far seems to be "save the organization!"
rather than
"save the people!"
And the calls for compassion are for compassion towards THE LEADERS,
aka THE ONES THAT CAUSED THE PROBLEMS,
and not THE PEOPLE WHO'VE BEEN HURT.
There's something seriously UNCHRISTIAN and MERCANTILE about how this
ORGANIZATION is run.
And it strikes a few of us as FAMILIAR.
"Save the organization-the people are disposable."
"The leaders are always right."
"Know something bad? Better keep it hidden in the lockbox."
They were carefully taught those lessons ONCE,
and it doesnt sound like they've travelled very far from them.
There's been some cosmetic changes, but God help the Christians!
Once again, it's a roll of the dice- a flip of the coin.
Heads, they help you grow, tails, they traumatize you and run your life.
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pond
word wolf can write better than me.
it is a good thing.
Ep
what would happen if STF fell off the face of the earth no more of them around they didnt happen?
God doesnt live here EP.
sorry bro but countless men through the ages have tried to work their way into the very Grace Jesus FREELY GAVE US as a gift from his love for us. end of discussion.
it makes money to run programs generate tapes and hold seminars you get to live tax free and accountable to only those they chose to be.
just like you live.
in REALITY world God is our God and even if we have to live in a desert for forty years He is still ABLE>
but they wanted to go back to EGYPT . WHY?? because it was safe there it was what they knew as home it was where they had relationships and life was easier than believing God would indeed send His blessing every single day.
go back to EGYPT all you want it doesnt change the fact I am living in the promised land of deliverence from men who play jesus and hurt Gods beloved.
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T-Bone
Good to hear back from you, Estimated Prophet. Sorry to hear about your having technical problems – can't help yah there, Bro' – I mean to say – I'm known for hacking into computer systems…but that's with a hacksaw…that's all I know to do with these darn things when they get uppity.
I respect your disagreeing with some scholars' comments on I Thessalonians 5:20. I'll throw another one at you in a moment – but just wanted to say I like hearing other viewpoints myself – may not always agree with them – but it's fun to track their reasoning on a topic. And there's many things in the Bible that I don't think can be nailed down – with a definitive answer.
Don't get me wrong – I love studying the Bible too and reading commentaries and books on theology – but it's a good thing I don't make a living writing books on theology – there's so much I don't understand – I'd have to change to a penname like Guesstimating Theologian…Anyway one of the unsettled issues for me is the manifestations of the Spirit – whether or not they're for today's Church. Which just about brings me to another theologian's book – but before I cite him I'd like to invite you to the Doctrinal forum – where discussions like this belong [GSC folks, please bear with me on some more doctrinal details here]…[you know - I started a thread in Doctrinal called Decision Making and the Will of God – some of my inspiration for that thread came from discussions here on CES and personal prophecy.]
The following excerpts are from Christian Theology by Millard J. Erickson, 1985, Baker Books, pages 878-881. In my opinion the author presents a fairly balanced view:
"…On the other side of the argument are those who reject the idea that the Holy Spirit is still dispensing the charismatic gifts. They argue that historically the miraculous gifts ceased; they were virtually unknown throughout most of the history of the church. When they were present, it was generally in isolated groups characterized by unorthodox beliefs on a number of major doctrines…
…Some theologians would argue for the passing of the miraculous gifts on the basis of Hebrews 2:3-4: "salvation…was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his own will." The thrust of this argument is that the purpose of the miraculous gifts was to attest to and thus authenticate the revelation and the incarnation. When that purpose had been fulfilled, the miracles being unnecessary, they simply faded away. [page 878]
…In my judgment it is not possible to determine with any certainty whether the contemporary charismatic phenomena are indeed gifts of the Holy Spirit. There simply is no biblical evidence indicating the time of fulfillment of the prediction that tongues will cease. It is questionable at best to conclude on the basis of the difference between the verbs in I Corinthians 13:8 that tongues will cease at one time, and prophecy and knowledge at another. Nor is the historical evidence clear and conclusive. The situation here is somewhat like the situation with respect to the doctrine of apostolic succession. There is a great deal of evidence on both sides. Each group is able to cite an impressive amount of data which are to its advantage, bypassing the data presented by the other group. This lack of historical conclusiveness is not a problem, however. For even if history proved that the gift of tongues has ceased, there is nothing to prevent God from reestablishing it. On the other hand, historical proof that the gift has been present through the various eras of the church would not validate the present phenomena…
…In the final analysis, whether the Bible teaches that the Spirit dispenses special gifts today is not an issue of great practical consequence. For even if he does, we are not to set our lives to seeking them. He bestows them sovereignly; he alone determines the recipients . If he chooses to give us a special gift, he will do so regardless of whether we expect it or seek it. What we are commanded to do [Ephesians 5:18] is to be filled with the Holy Spirit [a present imperative, suggesting ongoing action].This is not so much a matter of our getting more of the Holy Spirit; presumably all of us possess the Spirit in his entirety. It is rather, a matter of his possessing more of our lives…" [pages 880, 881]
End of excerpts
That is more or less where I'm at on this issue. I hold to a reserved approach. I see legitimate points on both sides – and figure God is in charge and will do what He pleases with or without my feeble attempts of helping Him out. Yes, we should "examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good" as I Thessalonians 5:21 says – but I also want to point out a logical flow into the next verse [verse 22], "abstain from every form of evil." As a Christian, God expects me to examine everything carefully – to embrace what is good and to shun anything evil. Romans 14: 5 tells us "…Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind."
…I'm not trying to be disrespectful or give you a hard time with all this. It's just that at this point – what stands out the most to me is the confusion and harm that's been generated by this personal prophecy stuff. I think this falls into the category of what God says I should shun. I remain unconvinced that it's something from the Holy Spirit. While I agree with the sentiment to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace I would also add that the unity it refers to is FROM the Spirit – it is something originating from God – not legislated by leadership, or at the expense of truth, or agreeing not to disagree. The impression that I get of CES from comments on these threads is the similarity of CES leadership to TWI leadership – where people are expendable, and the role of leadership becomes more a status symbol of achieving super-spirituality, a royal priesthood. Though words may paint up this brand of leadership as a humble position of service - in practice it plays out as a position of power and influence, supported and served by those who rank lower in this hierarchy of human design.
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rascal
Invented bad things to say about people that God loves??? Where? When? Who?
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Bumpy
Here's a fast reply...there are thousands of drums beating tonight throughout Africa, only a few hundred outside my door. None of them have heard of ces, twi, or the Bible! What am I to tell them? They can't type gs or afford to go on line. Can any of you intellectuals out there help me?
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therebutforgrace
Hi Bumpy...
Tell them Jesus loves them!!
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Bumpy
That's a good idea, but I think they're more interested in where their next meal is coming from! Besides, between Allah and the microphone, Jesus doesn't get a lot of playtime. The "trinitarians" are scouting around but I don't think with much success. But ideas are always welcome. By the way...has anyone come up with an idea about how to remove Islamic microphones on Moskies blasting Allah propoganda starting at 0530 AM?
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T-Bone
Tape pork rinds onto the microphone.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
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dmiller
And line the path to it with fried bacon, and ham sandwiches.
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Estimated Prophet
T Bone,
I really appreciate the thought you put into your posts.
Thanks.
You note:
" It's just that at this point – what stands out the most to me is the confusion and harm that's been generated by this personal prophecy stuff. "
I consider that a valid point of view based upon what has been discussed here at the Grease Spot.
From my perspective,
what stands out is the genuine edification, exhortation, and encouragement that occurs when genuine prophecy is manifested.
Bumpy,
Even in Africa with limited access to books and computers,
the spirit of the Living God will work within you to speak a blessing to your neighbor.
Our Almighty God is able to manifest his love and goodness where you are, and I pray that your presence reflects His light and the rhythm of the drums respond in a new and fresh glory to God.
Consider Jesus with the woman at the well in John 4.
" ...ye worship ye know not what..."
but ask Jesus and he will give any and all "living water."
Prophetic utterance is a wellspring of wisdom flowing from the fountain of living waters
Yes there are deceitful influences that cause confusion and harm,
but avoiding prophecy will not put an end to that.
So please don't let that stop you from pressing into Him with whom we have to do;
and to flow in the spirit of His Way,
namely Jesus Christ.
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Estimated Prophet
Have you really not noticed Rascal?
I have a strong suspicion that you are baiting me to open a can of worms.
Hmmm
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that your question is sincere,
and will give you this one recent example.
( and ask Pond to forgive me for the disturbance this post will cause)
no one really believes after all hmm? haha just your circle of what you think and who you think you know.
you pick and chose what fits into your agenda clearly like STF.
and the atitude bro the attitude has to go.
love who YOU chose is good enough, and quickly dismiss all others(no not me I could care less what you think)
keep your checking in.. bro.. just in case . hahaha you really believe they are THE most high for God and dare I say ONLY ones who have the truth still dont you?
hmmmm
so I think
' they are the most high for God and the only ones who have the truth'
Nope. Sorry. That is completely not the case.
these comments, in my considered opinion, are based only upon (dare I say)
the invention of a misguided imagination.
thinly veiled as sarcasm.
" some folks look for answers
some folks look for fights
some folks live in tree tops
just looking for their kites...
if a man among you
ain't got no sin upon his hands
let him cast a stone at me for
playing in the band" Robert Hunter
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Bumpy
Bumpy,
Even in Africa with limited access to books and computers,
the spirit of the Living God will work within you to speak a blessing to your neighbor.
Our Almighty God is able to manifest his love and goodness where you are, and I pray that your presence reflects His light and the rhythm of the drums respond in a new and fresh glory to God.
Consider Jesus with the woman at the well in John 4.
" ...ye worship ye know not what..."
but ask Jesus and he will give any and all "living water."
Prophetic utterance is a wellspring of wisdom flowing from the fountain of living waters
Yes there are deceitful influences that cause confusion and harm,
but avoiding prophecy will not put an end to that.
So please don't let that stop you from pressing into Him with whom we have to do;
and to flow in the spirit of His Way,
namely Jesus Christ.
Thanks for the advice, but a quick physical walk down one of my roads in life over here, will possibly convince you it's a lot easier and safer to keep preaching behind a keyboard. All that flowing wisdom sounds great, I just wish you were here to help me implement more of it. I keep telling people to expand their comfort zones and come visit but no takers so far...except MrtheEvan from Keeenya!
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Bramble
I guess I don't understand the whole personal prophecy thing. It requires another person to prohesy about your life, right?, Words of edification, exhortation and comfort( except for when they aren't and involve spiders etc)
Why do you need another person to prophesy for your life? Does your God nor deal with you directly? It has to be through someone else? So instead of trying to hear directly from your God, you go to someone else?
Seems way to easy to me. Seems like some kind of bypass in the relationship to your diety. Instead of doing the hard work of learning to listen, you go to someone else, who hopefully has done the hard work?
Seems people centered, not diety centered.
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Bramble
More --some of the things we've read about the practice involve someone having visions about another person, then taking action against that other person as a result of the visions, speaking about the visions to other people, etc. Now, that looks like behind the scenes manipulation to me. 'God told me so & so was eeeviiill'. And others listened and took action.
All people generated. SHE hears from the diety, we must listen to HER.
Wouldn't your deity tell you personally, if your spouse or another person in your life was truly evil?
The whole set up looks like an open door to let people manipulate and abuse each other! Where's the safe guards?
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pond
I do think safe gaurds are in place at all.
they had one of the PP practice session at a fellowship I went to.
I left when they began ..
but after wards I spoke to the guy who owned the home and ran the fellowship, he was angry and looked beatedn down.
He said so and so is not a prophet.
this other guy was his friend and not from the way background well what happened was his friend did a prophecy on this guy that he didnt like !
it hurt him and he did not agree with what was said at all.
so he dismissed the words from God.
why couldnt this work for a PP you liked? oh that sounds good so listen to it.. oh that sounds bad for me so lets practice some more your not right yet!
oh come n.
I do not want to think God needs practice to tell his people anything.
it is all about what people want to hear, and who is who UNTILL it goes bad like in the case of KG and the spiders.
uh oh .
no safe gaurds and quite dangerous because the pressure to perform is there just like it was in the clas to sit.
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Bramble
And another thing! I keep reading about, people are fallen, they make mistakes, they need forgiveness etc.
OKAY, fine. But, if I made a mistake that totally mangled some one's life, that involved meetings and trying to get this person to obey my words AND I came to the realization that I had nearly destroyed another person...well, that is a little more than just a mistake to be forgiven, on with the next. That is a destructive way of belief and living.
I would think realizing something like that would cause a profound change in some one's life, not just a 'Oh, blew it there, but God forgives me. I'm a leader, it's to be expected that sometimes I'll hurt people...What's next on my leadership plate?'
Call me a Pollyanna, but I think that there are many many people who go through life without causing huge damage to others. Plain, ordinary non-leadership people.
Or maybe I've just known some exceptional people...
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therebutforgrace
Amen, Bramble.
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