I dunno.. the old philosophy of "fake it till you make it" of the late 60's may work for a lot of things, but not prophecy. "grow as you go.." "prophecy is always guaranteed"..
I remember "practice sessions". Person has to presume to speak in the Lord's name, until he gets sufficient experience to be entrusted to do the "real job"..
We were even taught what they were SUPPOSED to sound like.. exhortation, comfort.. boldly..
"prophecies may contain sections of scripture.."
"always in alignment with the word of God (vey doctrine).."
I haven't heard the latest "manifestations", but at der vey I would imagine they are abundantly peppered with "Da Household" and "prevailing".
They wouldn't want to ask me to give a "prophecy" anymore..
"get off your sorry *ss, shed your farking religious veneer, and DO something. Do something for YOURSELF, go to school, get some credentials other that the rubber stamping and posturing you gain from your organization. And then MAYBE you can help somebody else, without causing too much damage. And for God's sake, quit telling people to beat pillows and scream 'mommy mommy mommy'..."
OK you biblical scholars, try to find something between Genesis and Revelation that THAT contradicts..
"get off your sorry *ss, shed your farking religious veneer, and DO something. Do something for YOURSELF, go to school, get some credentials other that the rubber stamping and posturing you gain from your organization. And then MAYBE you can help somebody else, without causing too much damage. And for God's sake, quit telling people to beat pillows and scream 'mommy mommy mommy'..."
I think that pretty much defines "enjoying life" around here, well, for me.
I strive to take heed to these words of "exhortation and comfort"
…Also I have a hard time accepting Gregg F’s theory of sometimes the holy message gets messed up before it leaves the prophet’s mouth – where is that in the Bible? It doesn’t appear they had that problem in the Bible. I think that opens the door for a lot of guesswork – and that also makes me wonder – how come God has such a hard time nowadays getting the right message out? If “what you speak remains God’s business,” that pretty much cinches it – whatever is said is of God - right? Forgive me if I sound skeptical…but I am…been burned too many times by stuff like this with TWI. Maybe it’s just me – but I don’t really understand what the purpose of personal prophecy is…and really have a hard time believing it’s credible.
( Welcome Kerke !)
T Bone,
I think it is very wise to be skeptical .
That does not mean there is not genuine prophecy inspired by holy spirit happening.
There is.
Unforumately there is false prophecy that stems from an over active imagination,
and some from an unholy spirit.
But there ain't nothing better than climbing up on the Father's lap so he can whisper in your ear.
That's what genuine prophecy is like for me.
As for Gregg F's theory.
Agabus the Prophet said the Jews would bind Paul.
It turned out the Romans bound Paul.
That's a bit of a mix-up, but the essence of the message was clear.
That does not mean there is not genuine prophecy inspired by holy spirit happening.
There is.
Unforumately there is false prophecy that stems from an over active imagination,
and some from an unholy spirit.
But there ain't nothing better than climbing up on the Father's lap so he can whisper in your ear.
That's what genuine prophecy is like for me.
As for Gregg F's theory.
Agabus the Prophet said the Jews would bind Paul.
It turned out the Romans bound Paul.
That's a bit of a mix-up, but the essence of the message was clear.
I don't see it as a mix up of Agabus' message to Paul. The way it is portrayed in Acts 21 it looks to me like the Jewsincited a riot and brought false charges against Paul. And taking Agabus' words at face value – he indicated the Jews would be the ones to deliver Paul into the custody of the Gentiles. Note how it was the Jews who instigated the riot, beat him, and wanted to kill him:
Acts 21:10,11, 27-33 NASB
10 As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea.
11 And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says: 'In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'"
27 When the seven days were almost over, the Jews from Asia, upon seeing him in the temple, began to stir up all the crowd and laid hands on him,
28 crying out, "Men of Israel, come to our aid! This is the man who preaches to all men everywhere against our people and the Law and this place; and besides he has even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place."
29 For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with him, and they supposed that Paul had brought him into the temple.
30 Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.
31While they were seeking to kill him, a report came up to the commander of the Roman cohort that all Jerusalem was in confusion.
32 At once he took along some soldiers and centurions and ran down to them; and when they saw the commander and the soldiers, they stopped beating Paul.
33 Then the commander came up and took hold of him, and ordered him to be bound with two chains; and he began asking who he was and what he had done.
Maybe Gregg is a little mixed up on how true prophecy worked in the Bible. In my opinion Agabus was stating who really was behind Paul's arrest. Perhaps similar to Peter saying to the Jews about Jesus, "YOU nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."
Acts 2:22,23 NASB
22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
After all it was the chief priests and elders that persuaded the crowds to ask Pilate for Barabbas to be freed and to put Jesus to death [Matthew 27:15-26].It appears Agabus foretelling of the arrest of Paul in Acts 21 and Peter speaking of the crucifixion of Jesus in Acts2 – do indeed show who really were the guilty parties even though other hands did the actual dirty work.
…I think there's a big issue with Gregg F's theory – because there is no Scriptural basis for it – and it opens the door for error, confusion, and spiritual deception to sneak in. If a message is truly from God – how can there be error in it? What about the high standard of accountability set forth in the Bible?
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NASB
20 'But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.'
21 "You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'
22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
Now how does the standard of prophecy in the above passage compare to ever-adaptable-flexible-personal prophecy? One could claim the part of the prophecy that didn't come to pass was the little part of the message that got mixed up. I recall people in TWI saying "Oh the revelation can change if the circumstances change or your believing changes." Where is that in the Bible? Sorry to be so blunt but it just looks to me like people are lowering God's standards to elevate what they do as something on par with Scripture. So what's going to be the criteria for determining what's from God and what's from an overactive imagination or from an unholy spirit? Who is going to make that call...and who says that they're right?
Me personally, I'm not going to claim that anything coming out of my mouth is from God. Especially so because I hold such a high opinion of the Bible – a book that claims the contents within came by prophecy.
II Peter 1:20, 21 NASB
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
I do believe that this STFI is now a ministry in crisis. But just like with TWI, I believe that CES was started with the benefit of God's people in mind. I
Well that might be true, but the Jehovah witnesses, Mormans, Childern of God, etc etc, could all say the same thing. Sincerity does not equal truth.
…I think there's a big issue with Gregg F's theory – because there is no Scriptural basis for it – and it opens the door for error, confusion, and spiritual deception to sneak in. If a message is truly from God – how can there be error in it? What about the high standard of accountability set forth in the Bible?
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NASB
20 'But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.'
21 "You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'
22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
Now how does the standard of prophecy in the above passage compare to ever-adaptable-flexible-personal prophecy?
II Peter 1:20, 21 NASB
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
Good Feedback T-Bone.
( likewise Joe Pascha and Rascal )
Let me first try to remove Gregg F from the discussion.
My recollection of exactly what he said ten years ago may be sincere,
but is certainly flawed.
I own those words I wrote regarding Acts 21.
Please don't hold him accountable for what I think he might have said.
Thanks.
Being the "Estimated Prophet" , I am one who speculates on what is true
more than establishes the truth.
You are very right, T Bone in demonstrating in Acts 2 how the blame for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, as well as Paul's arrest, is on the Jews.
Acts 21 is not a great example of a mixed up prophecy, but its the best I can come up with.
:)
I would also like to think that the standards set in Deuteronomy are more relaxed now that we are living in the Age of Grace.
That does not make false prophecy acceptable in any way,
but isn't it a sin to not speak prohetically when the spirit is moving you to do so?
I do believe that holiness is essential.
I used to think it was mostly Believing,
but now I consider holiness more important.
As Peter told Simon the Sorcerer,
we need to get our heart right with God before we can appropriately speak for God
I don't have all the answers,
but I know Him who does and check in with Him all the time.
and by Him I mean God in Christ Jesus my Lord.
There's a Greek word called "Gnosis" which makes an excellent study.
It's an intuitive knowledge.
and it can be very misleading given half a chance,
and has led to the Gnostic Gospels.
I think that to fully walk in the prophetic demands walking in gnosis knowledge,
but with strong support of the scripture and reliable friends in the Faith.
For instance,
Knowing from scripture that the Lord hates divorce,
I have a problem believing a prophecy instructing one to do that.
I do believe that the Lord intends for us to utilize prophecy in the church, and that it is propfitable for all.
I Thessaloniams 5:19-21 NASB
"Do not quench the spirit;
do not despise prophetic utterances.
But exanine everything carefully;
hold fast to that which is good"
An old professor from The Dallas Theological Seminary didn't believe that the power of the holy spirit was available any more.
Then the Lord began to show him a few things.
His name is Jack Deere and he's written some very good books on the subject if you care to read them.
this is his web site www.jackdeere.com
and 'may the Lord give us understanding in all things"
EP, I have been seeing lately how the whole Bible is essentially a book of prophecy.
The prophecies given to the men in the OT, were hard to understand, as they searched dilegently to know more of what these promises to Israel were. In fact, they couldn't quite grasp it, and after Daniels visions, where he wrote down the prophecies, he was told to seal the scroll, it was not time to be known.
In the NT, we see a new prophecy spoken by the Apostles - we are now joint heirs with Christ, we are invited to enter his kingdom, we have been made holy enough to do so by Christ. We also see many of the OT prophecies fullfilled in his life and death.
In Revelation, we see all of the prophecies of the OT fulfilled, down to every jot and title. We see the seals opened and the scroll of Daniel understood.
I believe, for example your verse from Thessalonians, that the early church was being exhorted to seek and understand the prophecies regarding Christ and the coming new heaven and earth and glory, and reject the many false prophets that arose.
From an overview, every prophecy was given to mankind so they may see the big picture, life here, is but a speck in time. God will renew it, there will be a brand new creation - us, the sons of God, of whom the universe and earth will glory in.
The Bible shows us what was, what is, and what is to come. Without the knowledge of this prophecy, we wander.
I think using prophecy, to run people's lives is not of God. To me, real prophecy revolves around 3 things: The OT - it regarded the coming Christ - the lamb of sacrifice and later, fulfilled in Revelation, the Lion of Judah; the NT - we are now included; Revelation - what is to come.
We have the Word, we can know. God does not need multitudes of mini, so called "prophets" to continue to add or take away from the Words of the book.
I have met only one prophet in my life, and God showed it to me clear as day, and it is someone sense knowledge wise you would never have expected.
I won't say they are many, but I think they are quite rare.
I do not need a so-called "prophet" to prophesy over me, I have the Holy Spirit within. Christ is my mediator, not a man.
Holy Spirit is difficult to explain but easy to be entreated.
When we doubt our own spirit we run into trouble, knowledge of how this spirit came about for God creation( the bible is a huge but not impossible to understand volume of the instructions of how when who etc. about a father and His ONLY begotten Son doing what needs to be done for the creation)
it is finished in the sense the story is DONE. why we do not live in the kingdom NOW is a question I have had for a long time and have never found an answer for, never the less the bible has its account of past present and future.
Clearly even a person new to the story of a Risen KING and a saviour of mankind, must recognize something "different"
it is the holy spirit within.
we are called before the foundation of the earth was built, God knows the number of hairs on our head at any given moment.
Jesus says to come as a Little child.
the bible story is not beyond understand and once told indeed quite simple to understand.
it is about a fathers love for His children and a Mans (both adams ) choices to trust in God, or not.
it is a simple choice.
The PP stuff is just a complicated religous thing people spin on about , religous folks have complicated God and His love for His people since time began.
God doesnt reject his children becuase we get into a mess or because we want our own way or because we refuse to trust or listen, because He loves us and Jesus does indeed understand us, He works within the prisons we SET up for OUR OWN SELF.
iT DOESNT MEAN IT IS EVEN REMOTELY hiS WILL FOR OUR LIFE.
Spirit is spirit and like each person personality or hair color or size it is each persons RELATIONSHIP with His LORD< a LORD who has nothing but love for HIS body , we became His body because He died for US> and God granted him such majesty.
it is NOT OVER us, it is US!
do you FEEL the difference??
that is the love of Christ that is the spirit within.
Christ laid down HIS life for US, so now we are HIM and HE and the Father are one.
these are not mystic statement we can not "get"> or that take years fo research to understand .
it is simply God loves us beyond what we can carry or obey So Jesus christ took the load for us.
when anyone starts telling me IM not good enough or God says blah blah blah I say go straight to hell, BECAUSE it is the primary focus of God that HIs people get saved from any trouble including DEATH>
people do not want to hold that.
they want the drama and excitement and power of complicated crap , because they can feel and see that stuff. and they can play at "being Jesus" YOU NOT JESUS!!!!! it is a con to
the fools who wont listen and refuse to obey. Who obeys??? only one and it aint me or you!! never has been nor will it ever be.
uh oh do not want to hear that do you?
this is nothing new it is how we tend to be with the influence of evil and sin, Jesus is NOT complicated the story of OUR life is simply one of love.
Jesus Christ is our hero. put away the cape with the pretend super powers you have had since you were a child and NEED HIM to be YOUR Father once again Need a brother who loves you and will help you and you will find the common BLOOD we all have called a spirit within, you will know the body of christ as well as you know YOU!
Twi influence will say to you God needs you. makes you feel powerful doesnt it? with a purpose now? a reason to live??? special??? uhoh now we start the cycle of abuse.
pfff ! God CREATED YOU ya think he can muster up the ability to save us to the uttermost? Get back to the idea that WE NEED GOD not the other way around.
bottom line God loves all of US, Jesus is the only one who obeyed enough to please God, THEY are to be worshiped and praised.
we are commanded just to love them and one another, it is all we can handle and for the most part we tend to fail enough just with those orders./
do not worry the story has been told plenty, and it is FINISHED.
I've been following quite a few of your posts throughout GS and I really have to wonder what world you live in and what bible you refer to in making some of your observations. You said "WE NEED GOD, not the other way around." I wonder then why Jesus said that we would do the works that he did and greater works, why Corinthians says we are ambassadors for Christ, why we are exhorted to be imitators of God, etc. Seems to me if God doesn't need us, then I can just sit back and watch Him do His thing.
I really think you miss out on the greatness of what we have by ignoring the fact that we are to be fellow laborers with God which means we get to help with what He's got going on. God does need us, otherwise life and the bible are just a joke and I really don't have any responsibilites to God or anyone else. It's God's job, not mine. I don't think so.
I've been following quite a few of your posts throughout GS and I really have to wonder what world you live in and what bible you refer to in making some of your observations. You said "WE NEED GOD, not the other way around." I wonder then why Jesus said that we would do the works that he did and greater works, why Corinthians says we are ambassadors for Christ, why we are exhorted to be imitators of God, etc. Seems to me if God doesn't need us, then I can just sit back and watch Him do His thing.
I really think you miss out on the greatness of what we have by ignoring the fact that we are to be fellow laborers with God which means we get to help with what He's got going on. God does need us, otherwise life and the bible are just a joke and I really don't have any responsibilites to God or anyone else. It's God's job, not mine. I don't think so.
Oldman
Oldman,
I hate to disagree much.. But I have yet to see why you think God needs us. Sure, He may desire for us to love and serve Him, we may be called to be ambassadors and all that such, but that doesn't mean he NEEDS us.. The God who created the heavens the earth, actually needs us to something? And if we don't, what? The world will die? Everything God has planned will fail? I think not, and I have yet to see any verse that would even suggest such a thing. We have a responsibility to God because he is our Father, and Jesus is our Lord, unless we choose them not.. But for those who do, it is ourresponsibilty to serve them, we either are serving ourselves and sin unto death or God in Christ Jesus which leads to life.. So just out of curiosity, what is it God can't do that he "NEEDS" us for, rather than desire us?
Course, that and the verse translated "fellow laborers of God" is a very questionable if not a totally terrible translation. "For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building." It's all HIS, He just desires us to join Him in His glory..
Does God really need ME? perhaps, to do what he wants ME to do. I can't put what he wants me to do in the small box of starting a new work, "duplicating myself" so to speak.. I don't know if the world could even stand another one of "me"
I would hope there is no room for another like me either..
...I would also like to think that the standards set in Deuteronomy are more relaxed now that we are living in the Age of Grace.
That does not make false prophecy acceptable in any way,
but isn't it a sin to not speak prohetically when the spirit is moving you to do so?..."
I think it's wise to err on the side of caution. If Scripture does not indicate a change in the standard for prophecy then why assume there's been a change? Why assume God has lowered the bar on anything? In reading Romans - it doesn't appear that God lowered His standard of righteousness or obedience.
Romans 5:17-21; NASB
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:1, 2, 13-16 NASB
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Romans 7:6 NASB
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Romans 8:3, 4 NASB
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rather than getting soft on His moral law so we could slip in under the bar and be accepted of Him – He gave His grace and gift of righteousness, which empowers us to truly serve Him…to obey Him. Not by our own strength or because He cuts us a bunch of slack – but through HIS strength we serve to follow HIS standards.
...That does not make false prophecy acceptable in any way,
but isn't it a sin to not speak prohetically when the spirit is moving you to do so?...
...I don't have all the answers,
but I know Him who does and check in with Him all the time.
and by Him I mean God in Christ Jesus my Lord.
There's a Greek word called "Gnosis" which makes an excellent study.
It's an intuitive knowledge.
and it can be very misleading given half a chance,
and has led to the Gnostic Gospels.
I think that to fully walk in the prophetic demands walking in gnosis knowledge,
but with strong support of the scripture and reliable friends in the Faith.
For instance,
Knowing from scripture that the Lord hates divorce,
I have a problem believing a prophecy instructing one to do that.
I do believe that the Lord intends for us to utilize prophecy in the church, and that it is propfitable for all.
I Thessaloniams 5:19-21 NASB
"Do not quench the spirit;
do not despise prophetic utterances.
But exanine everything carefully;
hold fast to that which is good"...
I would have to ask – is that the Spirit of God moving you to do so? How do you know? And what do you mean by "check in with Him all the time"?...Alright so - you think you've spotted a false prophecy by noting they're recommending a divorce – what if they recommend someone marry a specific person?...I don't know – there's so many things here that just invite confusion and deception – and don't refer to a biblical standard…some bold assumptions really…
...How is any of this confusion profitable to the church? I know from experience how TWI is just a world of confusion and deception from setting their own standards of truth and practice and it looks to me like the reason for CES being in a mess. You still haven't convinced me that it is the same thing as the prophecy of Bible times. II Peter 1:20 leaves no room for any confusion, assumptions or what have you - when it says, "no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will" - people did not decide on the message or have practice sessions - it did not originate from human effort. But as it says they were "moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."
A definition of prophet and prophecy is given in The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, General Editor Merrill C. Tenney, Volume 4, pages 875 & 876, under Prophets, and Prophecy:
"…Fuller light on the meaning of the word is evident from its second occurrence [Exodus 7:1]…after Moses declared that his lack of eloquence would make it impossible for him to act as God's representative before Pharaoh. God had said that He would appoint Moses' brother Aaron, who was a good speaker, to accompany him…The Lord said, "he shall be a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God" [Exodus 4:16]. This idea is summarized in the words, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'See, I make you as God to Pharaoh: and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet'" [Exodus 7:1]. This passage indicates clearly that the word prophet means one who passes on a message from a god…[page 875]
…In the NT, as in the OT, a prophet was one who received his message directly from God. As the Bible neared completion and the existence of God's written Word in its entirety made direct communication no longer necessary, it became possible to use the term in the extended sense of one who receives his message from God through the written Word and then passes it on to God's people for "up-building and encouragement and consolation" …" [page 876]
End of excerpt
I think your reference to I Thessalonians 5:20 "do not despise prophetic utterances" may largely fall into the written Word category. The MacArthur Study Bible notes on this verse:
"5:20 prophetic utterances. This phrase can refer to a spoken revelation from God [cf. Acts 11:27, 28; I Timothy 1:18; 4:14], but most often refers to the written word of Scripture [cf. Matthew 13:14; II Peter 1:19-21; Revelation 1:3; 22:7,10,18,19]. These "prophetic utterances" are authoritative messages from God through a well-recognized spokesman for God that, because of their divine origin, are not to be treated lightly. When God's Word is preached or read, it is to be received with great seriousness."
God has given us the bible with instructions on how to live in the manner that would please HIM for OUR benefit, not HIS.
He is LOVE, He created man and has been trying to help us live in the manner He desires for us to live every since then.
We do not Help God. I find that hysterical.
we can have a relationship with God , we can worship we can ask for what we want .
the bible says our needs are already met!
what is the problem now? got one WHY?
o it must be God needs us to figure it out and plan a plan and tell HIM how it all went while He sits on a cloud and says hmm good job .
that sure enough is a twi mind set to the hilt!
feed the ego? feel better? well better than that un believer anyways??
YOU did good or better than that guy !!! what a joke your religous mind is.
At the last supper they had this same conversation and asked the LORD who will the greatest in the kingdom and He said those that are a SERVANT of the rest. love is the only answer God and His ONLY begotten Son has ever ever had.
Jesus christ doesnt NEED YOU any more than YOU need anyone you love.
we love because He first LOVED us.
I believe God knows what He is doing and we as His people Need HIM .
you play with the old stale idea of YOU to can be like God!!! or in the very least take the credit for what the LORD has accomplished by His own self.
but but if you do not have an agenda what will you do? howwwill you lord over others? How will you feed your ego or stroke your guilt by a good deed or two in life.
did God raised you from the dead to ? must have missed that sorry.
hey now Im all for doing the right thing and a good deed or two in a life time!
I just know that is not what saved your life from the fire nor will it EVER be without the sin that so easily happens to every man or woman.
and that sin is why Jesus died dear it is NOT your goodness why He suffered for YOU it was your sin .
so puff up and glory in your good works they are not a bad thing just not what the bible story is all about in its amazing glory of a very very LOVING Father who watched Jesus be killed BY those who thought they also where the best worshipers of God ever.
it was the leaders and do gooders who hounded Jesus like a dog for His willing to LOVE beyond what they could do , with all their education and titles and law abiding they ending up trying to plot the murder and dismissal of God only Son able to obey HIM in spite of the pressure and ego driven idiots sure they had the ability to help God.
the works of Jesus completed any will of God to be done . it is finished NOW we can have a kingdom without trouble or death etc... it is DONE!
the fellow labor is in our own life we labor with GOD as in He is helping us on our side laboring with us to keep tryin to get life on track with HIS will for us.
the labor is in Us changing and being more Like Jesus in obedience and LOVE , He labors with us . It is all about what YOU need to be blessed and happy not GOD or Jesus christ!!! again i believe they got it all over on what to d and how to be seeing as one created us and the other was handed a crown to our KING !!
God doesnt need you He loves you. the fellow labor is saying He is the game with Us, He wont give up He will keep trying to help us he will labor with us. FOR US!
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I have seen the most awful, totally off the mark "prophecies" uttered with the "boldness of da Lord"..
spoken with enough "power" to curl your hair, but they couldn't have been more ineffective, bland..
"ahh loves ya, mah people..."
gotta be kidding..
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Ham
I dunno.. the old philosophy of "fake it till you make it" of the late 60's may work for a lot of things, but not prophecy. "grow as you go.." "prophecy is always guaranteed"..
I remember "practice sessions". Person has to presume to speak in the Lord's name, until he gets sufficient experience to be entrusted to do the "real job"..
Makes no sense to me.
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Ham
We were even taught what they were SUPPOSED to sound like.. exhortation, comfort.. boldly..
"prophecies may contain sections of scripture.."
"always in alignment with the word of God (vey doctrine).."
I haven't heard the latest "manifestations", but at der vey I would imagine they are abundantly peppered with "Da Household" and "prevailing".
They wouldn't want to ask me to give a "prophecy" anymore..
"get off your sorry *ss, shed your farking religious veneer, and DO something. Do something for YOURSELF, go to school, get some credentials other that the rubber stamping and posturing you gain from your organization. And then MAYBE you can help somebody else, without causing too much damage. And for God's sake, quit telling people to beat pillows and scream 'mommy mommy mommy'..."
OK you biblical scholars, try to find something between Genesis and Revelation that THAT contradicts..
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Kerke
I just don't know. Life is so darn short. I just don't understand why you folks can't just enjoy each other and life.
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therebutforgrace
Welcome kerke, to GreaseSpot!
Actually there's a lot of enjoyment here at the Cafe....
Stick around.....
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Sushi
DON'T TOUCH THAT DIAL!!!
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Ham
Welcome Kerke!
I think that pretty much defines "enjoying life" around here, well, for me.
I strive to take heed to these words of "exhortation and comfort"
Some of us just wish we did twenty years ago.
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pond
i think we do.
people do not stay if they do not enjoy this forum.
what are you saying in this statement?
conflict or discussions make you uncomfortable?
you want everyone to agree on everything? no i wouldnt enjoy that as much !
can you clarify your idea ? what would help you enjoy this forum?
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GrouchoMarxJr
...We do.
Welcome to the GreaseSpot!...there's free coffee for newcomers. :)
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excathedra
i don't enjoy it here.... that's why i have so few posts....
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rhino
I just like chatting with people more effed up than i am ...
hi excie and groucho
but dammnit, we have history ...
I'd rather be with these people, than with the finest people in the world ...
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Sushi
We ARE the finest people in the world, Hap........
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Estimated Prophet
( Welcome Kerke !)
T Bone,
I think it is very wise to be skeptical .
That does not mean there is not genuine prophecy inspired by holy spirit happening.
There is.
Unforumately there is false prophecy that stems from an over active imagination,
and some from an unholy spirit.
But there ain't nothing better than climbing up on the Father's lap so he can whisper in your ear.
That's what genuine prophecy is like for me.
As for Gregg F's theory.
Agabus the Prophet said the Jews would bind Paul.
It turned out the Romans bound Paul.
That's a bit of a mix-up, but the essence of the message was clear.
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T-Bone
I don't see it as a mix up of Agabus' message to Paul. The way it is portrayed in Acts 21 it looks to me like the Jews incited a riot and brought false charges against Paul. And taking Agabus' words at face value – he indicated the Jews would be the ones to deliver Paul into the custody of the Gentiles. Note how it was the Jews who instigated the riot, beat him, and wanted to kill him:
Acts 21:10,11, 27-33 NASB
10 As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea.
11 And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says: 'In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'"
27 When the seven days were almost over, the Jews from Asia, upon seeing him in the temple, began to stir up all the crowd and laid hands on him,
28 crying out, "Men of Israel, come to our aid! This is the man who preaches to all men everywhere against our people and the Law and this place; and besides he has even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place."
29 For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with him, and they supposed that Paul had brought him into the temple.
30 Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.
31 While they were seeking to kill him, a report came up to the commander of the Roman cohort that all Jerusalem was in confusion.
32 At once he took along some soldiers and centurions and ran down to them; and when they saw the commander and the soldiers, they stopped beating Paul.
33 Then the commander came up and took hold of him, and ordered him to be bound with two chains; and he began asking who he was and what he had done.
Maybe Gregg is a little mixed up on how true prophecy worked in the Bible. In my opinion Agabus was stating who really was behind Paul's arrest. Perhaps similar to Peter saying to the Jews about Jesus, "YOU nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."
Acts 2:22,23 NASB
22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
After all it was the chief priests and elders that persuaded the crowds to ask Pilate for Barabbas to be freed and to put Jesus to death [Matthew 27:15-26].It appears Agabus foretelling of the arrest of Paul in Acts 21 and Peter speaking of the crucifixion of Jesus in Acts 2 – do indeed show who really were the guilty parties even though other hands did the actual dirty work.
…I think there's a big issue with Gregg F's theory – because there is no Scriptural basis for it – and it opens the door for error, confusion, and spiritual deception to sneak in. If a message is truly from God – how can there be error in it? What about the high standard of accountability set forth in the Bible?
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NASB
20 'But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.'
21 "You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'
22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
Now how does the standard of prophecy in the above passage compare to ever-adaptable-flexible-personal prophecy? One could claim the part of the prophecy that didn't come to pass was the little part of the message that got mixed up. I recall people in TWI saying "Oh the revelation can change if the circumstances change or your believing changes." Where is that in the Bible? Sorry to be so blunt but it just looks to me like people are lowering God's standards to elevate what they do as something on par with Scripture. So what's going to be the criteria for determining what's from God and what's from an overactive imagination or from an unholy spirit? Who is going to make that call...and who says that they're right?
Me personally, I'm not going to claim that anything coming out of my mouth is from God. Especially so because I hold such a high opinion of the Bible – a book that claims the contents within came by prophecy.
II Peter 1:20, 21 NASB
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
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JoePascha
I do believe that this STFI is now a ministry in crisis. But just like with TWI, I believe that CES was started with the benefit of God's people in mind. I
Well that might be true, but the Jehovah witnesses, Mormans, Childern of God, etc etc, could all say the same thing. Sincerity does not equal truth.
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rascal
Amen Joe Pascha!
No matter how much we like these guys or how noble their intentions are, that doesn`t make them right or healthy.
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Estimated Prophet
Good Feedback T-Bone.
( likewise Joe Pascha and Rascal )
Let me first try to remove Gregg F from the discussion.
My recollection of exactly what he said ten years ago may be sincere,
but is certainly flawed.
I own those words I wrote regarding Acts 21.
Please don't hold him accountable for what I think he might have said.
Thanks.
Being the "Estimated Prophet" , I am one who speculates on what is true
more than establishes the truth.
You are very right, T Bone in demonstrating in Acts 2 how the blame for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, as well as Paul's arrest, is on the Jews.
Acts 21 is not a great example of a mixed up prophecy, but its the best I can come up with.
:)
I would also like to think that the standards set in Deuteronomy are more relaxed now that we are living in the Age of Grace.
That does not make false prophecy acceptable in any way,
but isn't it a sin to not speak prohetically when the spirit is moving you to do so?
I do believe that holiness is essential.
I used to think it was mostly Believing,
but now I consider holiness more important.
As Peter told Simon the Sorcerer,
we need to get our heart right with God before we can appropriately speak for God
I don't have all the answers,
but I know Him who does and check in with Him all the time.
and by Him I mean God in Christ Jesus my Lord.
There's a Greek word called "Gnosis" which makes an excellent study.
It's an intuitive knowledge.
and it can be very misleading given half a chance,
and has led to the Gnostic Gospels.
I think that to fully walk in the prophetic demands walking in gnosis knowledge,
but with strong support of the scripture and reliable friends in the Faith.
For instance,
Knowing from scripture that the Lord hates divorce,
I have a problem believing a prophecy instructing one to do that.
I do believe that the Lord intends for us to utilize prophecy in the church, and that it is propfitable for all.
I Thessaloniams 5:19-21 NASB
"Do not quench the spirit;
do not despise prophetic utterances.
But exanine everything carefully;
hold fast to that which is good"
An old professor from The Dallas Theological Seminary didn't believe that the power of the holy spirit was available any more.
Then the Lord began to show him a few things.
His name is Jack Deere and he's written some very good books on the subject if you care to read them.
this is his web site www.jackdeere.com
and 'may the Lord give us understanding in all things"
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Sunesis
EP, I have been seeing lately how the whole Bible is essentially a book of prophecy.
The prophecies given to the men in the OT, were hard to understand, as they searched dilegently to know more of what these promises to Israel were. In fact, they couldn't quite grasp it, and after Daniels visions, where he wrote down the prophecies, he was told to seal the scroll, it was not time to be known.
In the NT, we see a new prophecy spoken by the Apostles - we are now joint heirs with Christ, we are invited to enter his kingdom, we have been made holy enough to do so by Christ. We also see many of the OT prophecies fullfilled in his life and death.
In Revelation, we see all of the prophecies of the OT fulfilled, down to every jot and title. We see the seals opened and the scroll of Daniel understood.
I believe, for example your verse from Thessalonians, that the early church was being exhorted to seek and understand the prophecies regarding Christ and the coming new heaven and earth and glory, and reject the many false prophets that arose.
From an overview, every prophecy was given to mankind so they may see the big picture, life here, is but a speck in time. God will renew it, there will be a brand new creation - us, the sons of God, of whom the universe and earth will glory in.
The Bible shows us what was, what is, and what is to come. Without the knowledge of this prophecy, we wander.
I think using prophecy, to run people's lives is not of God. To me, real prophecy revolves around 3 things: The OT - it regarded the coming Christ - the lamb of sacrifice and later, fulfilled in Revelation, the Lion of Judah; the NT - we are now included; Revelation - what is to come.
We have the Word, we can know. God does not need multitudes of mini, so called "prophets" to continue to add or take away from the Words of the book.
I have met only one prophet in my life, and God showed it to me clear as day, and it is someone sense knowledge wise you would never have expected.
I won't say they are many, but I think they are quite rare.
I do not need a so-called "prophet" to prophesy over me, I have the Holy Spirit within. Christ is my mediator, not a man.
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pond
Holy Spirit is difficult to explain but easy to be entreated.
When we doubt our own spirit we run into trouble, knowledge of how this spirit came about for God creation( the bible is a huge but not impossible to understand volume of the instructions of how when who etc. about a father and His ONLY begotten Son doing what needs to be done for the creation)
it is finished in the sense the story is DONE. why we do not live in the kingdom NOW is a question I have had for a long time and have never found an answer for, never the less the bible has its account of past present and future.
Clearly even a person new to the story of a Risen KING and a saviour of mankind, must recognize something "different"
it is the holy spirit within.
we are called before the foundation of the earth was built, God knows the number of hairs on our head at any given moment.
Jesus says to come as a Little child.
the bible story is not beyond understand and once told indeed quite simple to understand.
it is about a fathers love for His children and a Mans (both adams ) choices to trust in God, or not.
it is a simple choice.
The PP stuff is just a complicated religous thing people spin on about , religous folks have complicated God and His love for His people since time began.
God doesnt reject his children becuase we get into a mess or because we want our own way or because we refuse to trust or listen, because He loves us and Jesus does indeed understand us, He works within the prisons we SET up for OUR OWN SELF.
iT DOESNT MEAN IT IS EVEN REMOTELY hiS WILL FOR OUR LIFE.
Spirit is spirit and like each person personality or hair color or size it is each persons RELATIONSHIP with His LORD< a LORD who has nothing but love for HIS body , we became His body because He died for US> and God granted him such majesty.
it is NOT OVER us, it is US!
do you FEEL the difference??
that is the love of Christ that is the spirit within.
Christ laid down HIS life for US, so now we are HIM and HE and the Father are one.
these are not mystic statement we can not "get"> or that take years fo research to understand .
it is simply God loves us beyond what we can carry or obey So Jesus christ took the load for us.
when anyone starts telling me IM not good enough or God says blah blah blah I say go straight to hell, BECAUSE it is the primary focus of God that HIs people get saved from any trouble including DEATH>
people do not want to hold that.
they want the drama and excitement and power of complicated crap , because they can feel and see that stuff. and they can play at "being Jesus" YOU NOT JESUS!!!!! it is a con to
the fools who wont listen and refuse to obey. Who obeys??? only one and it aint me or you!! never has been nor will it ever be.
uh oh do not want to hear that do you?
this is nothing new it is how we tend to be with the influence of evil and sin, Jesus is NOT complicated the story of OUR life is simply one of love.
Jesus Christ is our hero. put away the cape with the pretend super powers you have had since you were a child and NEED HIM to be YOUR Father once again Need a brother who loves you and will help you and you will find the common BLOOD we all have called a spirit within, you will know the body of christ as well as you know YOU!
Twi influence will say to you God needs you. makes you feel powerful doesnt it? with a purpose now? a reason to live??? special??? uhoh now we start the cycle of abuse.
pfff ! God CREATED YOU ya think he can muster up the ability to save us to the uttermost? Get back to the idea that WE NEED GOD not the other way around.
bottom line God loves all of US, Jesus is the only one who obeyed enough to please God, THEY are to be worshiped and praised.
we are commanded just to love them and one another, it is all we can handle and for the most part we tend to fail enough just with those orders./
do not worry the story has been told plenty, and it is FINISHED.
life is just a piece of cake now!
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oldman
Pond,
I've been following quite a few of your posts throughout GS and I really have to wonder what world you live in and what bible you refer to in making some of your observations. You said "WE NEED GOD, not the other way around." I wonder then why Jesus said that we would do the works that he did and greater works, why Corinthians says we are ambassadors for Christ, why we are exhorted to be imitators of God, etc. Seems to me if God doesn't need us, then I can just sit back and watch Him do His thing.
I really think you miss out on the greatness of what we have by ignoring the fact that we are to be fellow laborers with God which means we get to help with what He's got going on. God does need us, otherwise life and the bible are just a joke and I really don't have any responsibilites to God or anyone else. It's God's job, not mine. I don't think so.
Oldman
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TrustAndObey
Oldman,
I hate to disagree much.. But I have yet to see why you think God needs us. Sure, He may desire for us to love and serve Him, we may be called to be ambassadors and all that such, but that doesn't mean he NEEDS us.. The God who created the heavens the earth, actually needs us to something? And if we don't, what? The world will die? Everything God has planned will fail? I think not, and I have yet to see any verse that would even suggest such a thing. We have a responsibility to God because he is our Father, and Jesus is our Lord, unless we choose them not.. But for those who do, it is ourresponsibilty to serve them, we either are serving ourselves and sin unto death or God in Christ Jesus which leads to life.. So just out of curiosity, what is it God can't do that he "NEEDS" us for, rather than desire us?
Course, that and the verse translated "fellow laborers of God" is a very questionable if not a totally terrible translation. "For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building." It's all HIS, He just desires us to join Him in His glory..
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Ham
I don't like to disagree so much either..
Does God really need ME? perhaps, to do what he wants ME to do. I can't put what he wants me to do in the small box of starting a new work, "duplicating myself" so to speak.. I don't know if the world could even stand another one of "me"
I would hope there is no room for another like me either..
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T-Bone
I think it's wise to err on the side of caution. If Scripture does not indicate a change in the standard for prophecy then why assume there's been a change? Why assume God has lowered the bar on anything? In reading Romans - it doesn't appear that God lowered His standard of righteousness or obedience.
Romans 5:17-21; NASB
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:1, 2, 13-16 NASB
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Romans 7:6 NASB
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Romans 8:3, 4 NASB
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rather than getting soft on His moral law so we could slip in under the bar and be accepted of Him – He gave His grace and gift of righteousness, which empowers us to truly serve Him…to obey Him. Not by our own strength or because He cuts us a bunch of slack – but through HIS strength we serve to follow HIS standards.
I would have to ask – is that the Spirit of God moving you to do so? How do you know? And what do you mean by "check in with Him all the time"?...Alright so - you think you've spotted a false prophecy by noting they're recommending a divorce – what if they recommend someone marry a specific person?...I don't know – there's so many things here that just invite confusion and deception – and don't refer to a biblical standard…some bold assumptions really…
...How is any of this confusion profitable to the church? I know from experience how TWI is just a world of confusion and deception from setting their own standards of truth and practice and it looks to me like the reason for CES being in a mess. You still haven't convinced me that it is the same thing as the prophecy of Bible times. II Peter 1:20 leaves no room for any confusion, assumptions or what have you - when it says, "no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will" - people did not decide on the message or have practice sessions - it did not originate from human effort. But as it says they were "moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."
A definition of prophet and prophecy is given in The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, General Editor Merrill C. Tenney, Volume 4, pages 875 & 876, under Prophets, and Prophecy:
"…Fuller light on the meaning of the word is evident from its second occurrence [Exodus 7:1]…after Moses declared that his lack of eloquence would make it impossible for him to act as God's representative before Pharaoh. God had said that He would appoint Moses' brother Aaron, who was a good speaker, to accompany him…The Lord said, "he shall be a mouth for you, and you shall be to him as God" [Exodus 4:16]. This idea is summarized in the words, "And the Lord said to Moses, 'See, I make you as God to Pharaoh: and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet'" [Exodus 7:1]. This passage indicates clearly that the word prophet means one who passes on a message from a god…[page 875]
…In the NT, as in the OT, a prophet was one who received his message directly from God. As the Bible neared completion and the existence of God's written Word in its entirety made direct communication no longer necessary, it became possible to use the term in the extended sense of one who receives his message from God through the written Word and then passes it on to God's people for "up-building and encouragement and consolation" …" [page 876]
End of excerpt
I think your reference to I Thessalonians 5:20 "do not despise prophetic utterances" may largely fall into the written Word category. The MacArthur Study Bible notes on this verse:
"5:20 prophetic utterances. This phrase can refer to a spoken revelation from God [cf. Acts 11:27, 28; I Timothy 1:18; 4:14], but most often refers to the written word of Scripture [cf. Matthew 13:14; II Peter 1:19-21; Revelation 1:3; 22:7,10,18,19]. These "prophetic utterances" are authoritative messages from God through a well-recognized spokesman for God that, because of their divine origin, are not to be treated lightly. When God's Word is preached or read, it is to be received with great seriousness."
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pond
God has given us the bible with instructions on how to live in the manner that would please HIM for OUR benefit, not HIS.
He is LOVE, He created man and has been trying to help us live in the manner He desires for us to live every since then.
We do not Help God. I find that hysterical.
we can have a relationship with God , we can worship we can ask for what we want .
the bible says our needs are already met!
what is the problem now? got one WHY?
o it must be God needs us to figure it out and plan a plan and tell HIM how it all went while He sits on a cloud and says hmm good job .
that sure enough is a twi mind set to the hilt!
feed the ego? feel better? well better than that un believer anyways??
YOU did good or better than that guy !!! what a joke your religous mind is.
At the last supper they had this same conversation and asked the LORD who will the greatest in the kingdom and He said those that are a SERVANT of the rest. love is the only answer God and His ONLY begotten Son has ever ever had.
Jesus christ doesnt NEED YOU any more than YOU need anyone you love.
we love because He first LOVED us.
I believe God knows what He is doing and we as His people Need HIM .
you play with the old stale idea of YOU to can be like God!!! or in the very least take the credit for what the LORD has accomplished by His own self.
but but if you do not have an agenda what will you do? howwwill you lord over others? How will you feed your ego or stroke your guilt by a good deed or two in life.
did God raised you from the dead to ? must have missed that sorry.
hey now Im all for doing the right thing and a good deed or two in a life time!
I just know that is not what saved your life from the fire nor will it EVER be without the sin that so easily happens to every man or woman.
and that sin is why Jesus died dear it is NOT your goodness why He suffered for YOU it was your sin .
so puff up and glory in your good works they are not a bad thing just not what the bible story is all about in its amazing glory of a very very LOVING Father who watched Jesus be killed BY those who thought they also where the best worshipers of God ever.
it was the leaders and do gooders who hounded Jesus like a dog for His willing to LOVE beyond what they could do , with all their education and titles and law abiding they ending up trying to plot the murder and dismissal of God only Son able to obey HIM in spite of the pressure and ego driven idiots sure they had the ability to help God.
the works of Jesus completed any will of God to be done . it is finished NOW we can have a kingdom without trouble or death etc... it is DONE!
the fellow labor is in our own life we labor with GOD as in He is helping us on our side laboring with us to keep tryin to get life on track with HIS will for us.
the labor is in Us changing and being more Like Jesus in obedience and LOVE , He labors with us . It is all about what YOU need to be blessed and happy not GOD or Jesus christ!!! again i believe they got it all over on what to d and how to be seeing as one created us and the other was handed a crown to our KING !!
God doesnt need you He loves you. the fellow labor is saying He is the game with Us, He wont give up He will keep trying to help us he will labor with us. FOR US!
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