Not to mention the mixing metaphors. Jesus said that you CAN`T get good fruit from a bad tree or bad fruit from a good tree....the only thing to do was to uproot the tree entirely, if my memory serves correct.
I think that if you haven`t had genuinely wholesome fruit, it is easy to pretend that the garbage that you are currently consuming isn`t all that bad.
The whole eat the fish and spit out the bones analogy that John Lynn fans are so fond of quoting is simply bogus from a scriptural point of view.
You have to get humble and start all over again, otherwise you are simply trying to patch up a crumbling foundation.
I'd ask "how do I get a piece of this easy money?" but my conscience won't even let me
say it as a joke. I don't know how his allows him to actually DO it.
Unless it's dulled down, asleep at the switch, too jaded to register real issues.
I lost track of this thread for a while, but while scanning I noticed this post. Just so that you ALL know: JAL is NOT paid by STF or supported by donations to STF in ANY way. He's spent the past few years building an SAT prep business and it's successful enough to support him fully. He doesn't even travel and live "from the can" as an official ambassador for STF. Most of the travelling he does now is to spend time with his daughter, son-in-law, and his grandchildren.
Just thought I'd clear that up. And please note: this is only a specific response to clarify an incorrect statement and NOT an endorsement of everything CES/STF/JAL/BOD/etc/etc.
Estimated, CES got the saying of "eat the fish and throw away the bones" from a ministry in Florida who have used it to justify a number of false prophecies. No one in CES came up with this saying themselves. How does this saying compare to Jesus' words below? If there seems to be a contradiction wouldn't it be better to go with Jesus' words and wisdom instead. Didn't Jesus also say to beware of the leaven of the pharisees?
Matthew 7:15-20
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
NIV
Matt 16:5-12
5 And the disciples came to the other side and had forgotten to take bread. 6 And Jesus said to them, "Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." 7 And they began to discuss among themselves, saying, "It is because we took no bread." 8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, "You men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselves that you have no bread? 9 "Do you not yet understand or remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets you took up? 10 "Or the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many large baskets you took up? 11 "How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." 12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
he comes from money, no ? i'm not being mean, i'm just asking....
but he should step back.... all those spiders and taking the advice about his wife....
too weird.....
Sort of, but he's not supported by that money, to my knowledge.
He has stepped way back from where he's been in the past. I dunno....I knew of "things" going on b/t him and Elizabeth, but it was all top secret and I definitely was fed the G/R end of it. I'm so sad about it and just sickened thinking about what really went on, right under my nose (with people hinting at the truth but me not wanting to believe it). Then the sights were turned on my wife - now THAT woke me up.
Every day I ask God to help me to stand in integrity and love, and I ask Him to help me sort out the conflicted feelings I have for people I genuinely love and care for....but am so disappointed in. I'm sure the same can be said for me....I am human after all and oh so aware of it.
Estimated Prophet, I am glad that you can discuss these ideas with me without being defensive and mean.
Looking at what you say from my point of view however, it appears that you are having to twist/ignore scripture in order to maintain you current belief system. I think that is part of what makes twi dogma an unsound foundation to build your house upon.
The way I see it.....either Jesus` word`s are true or they aren`t. I think that he meant it when he told us that a bad tree does not bear good fruit....that he told us what fruit to look for in recognising one another.
I think that Galatians lists fruit and tells us which is which. Those that manifest that fruit of the flesh ....have no inheritance in the kingdom of God....read it...there is no room to wiggle.
Too bad vp and the leaders DIDN`T take the verse you spoke of litterally and cut off their *offending body members* it would have saved a whole lot of pain and heart ache.
Oh, and far as a place where the fruit from the tree is good? Since leaving twi, I have seen it, I have seen genuine christians, people who manifest the fruit of the spirit. You do a great many people who DO manage to walk in the spirit a disservice in declaring it not possible.
First of all, I'm not so sure that these guys (CES "leaders") are even sincere in what they do and say...but let's assume for a moment that they are...
...who in their right mind would follow these clowns? They seem to have more personal "issues" than most people I know...and they're supposed to be leading? Leading whom?...and to where? Personally, I think this whole CES "thing" would make a good sitcom on TV. Anybody who places their spiritual life in the hands of these guys is making a very sad choice.
Wierwille set the pattern that all these guys follow...they tweak their doctrines so that they can claim to be "different" than twi...HOGWASH I say! These people decided not to attend a real Christian church because THEY wanted to be the "special ones" who stood on the stage and put on their show...they are self deluded egomaniacs with a false sense of humility...
When you die and face the Lord are you gonna say "I knew John Lynn"?
...but I agree that there are wolves in sheeps clothing to beware of.
Likewise False Apostles and False Prophets,
and I'm not sure how to determine where an Apostle or Prophet crosses the line and becomes False.
Just where should we draw the line
God have Mercy on them.
For what it's worth,
my definition of an Apostle is much different from what I learned as a Roman Catholic,
or later as a PFAL Grad.
I don't see an Apostle as a 'super-human' so much any more,
just someone with a calling to care for the Church.
someone capable of being wrong at times.
You are right on to reference Galations regarding these things in my opinion.
Rascal,
in my humble opinion...
If we ripped out every tree that produced any bad fruit,
how many trees would be left?...
I'm not an authority on the subject either – and on something like this I usually check out some biblical scholars on it, see what Scriptural references they see as relevant. The following excerpts from The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, General Editor Geoffrey Bromiley, APOSTLE, Volume 1, page 193, 195:
"…In most of the approximately eighty cases in which the word "apostle" in the NT, it refers to the Twelve or to Paul. Their unique place is based upon the resurrected Jesus' having appeared to them and having commissioned them to proclaim the gospel as the eschatological action of God in Christ. As witnesses of Jesus' resurrection [Matthew 28; Like 24; Acts 1:22; 10:41; I Corinthians 9:1; 15:4] and sole witnesses of His ascension [Acts 1:9-13], they are the guarantors of His resurrection…Moreover, the risen Lord has particularly empowered them by the Holy Spirit for their whole ministry of witnessing, preaching, working miracles, establishing and guiding churches [John 20:22; Acts 1:8; II Corinthians 12:12; Romans 15:1; I Corinthians 2], and bearing hardships, shame, and suffering for Jesus' sake [Acts 5:40f.; 12:1-4; Philippians 3:8; I Corinthians 9:1]…The apostles are regarded as setting the norms of doctrine and fellowship [Acts 2:42], the marking posts [Galatians 2:9], the rule by which one must measure his preaching [Galatians 2:2], the foundation [Ephesians 2:20; Revelation 21:14; I Corinthians 3:11]…[page 193]
…By his apostolic commission Paul was separated from all other interests to God's gospel concerning His Son [Romans 1:1-3; I Corinthians 1:1,17; Galatians 1:15;2:7; Acts 22:14-17]. Other disciples had a long period of training fro their apostleship, but by this great encounter Christ made Paul forever His bond slave, debtor, and apostle [Romans 1:1,15]…In his letters to the church in Corinth Paul is constantly wringing all self-adulation out of his ministry that men may glory only in Christ…" [page 195]
End of excerpts
And excerpts from The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, General Editor Merrill Tenney, APOSTLE, Volume 1, page 218, 219:
"…Emphasis is laid on the divine choice [Acts 1:24]. The apostleship of Paul was also due to the divine choice and he was often at pains to point this out, both to emphasize the wonder of the grace of God, and to maintain the authority of his own message [Galatians 1:1,11,12,15-17. cf. Romans 1:1; I Corinthians 1:1; 9:1; 15:8]. There could be no substitute for a personal call from Christ to this service…
…The work of a true apostle was accompanied by signs and wonders and mighty works [iI Corinthians 12:12], though such things are regarded as peripheral compared with Christian converts …"
End of excerpts
So – is a false apostle one who deviates from the above criteria? Well, for starters – are they an eye-witness of Christ's resurrection?...perhaps someone can show me in the Bible where the office of an apostle is necessary after the establishment of the church. Besides…we still have an apostle - - and high priest – Jesus Christ [Hebrews 3:1] – He is the sent one…with the rights, power and authority of the one who sent Him.
One of the simplest teachings on false prophets is in Matthew 7:15-20 NIV
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
…Jesus said you'll spot them by their predatory traits [being like ravenous wolves] and the fruits of their labor [the end result of their work]. For our Lord to leave such simple directions - it can't be too hard to miss. He indicated the type of tree is known by the type of fruit – He didn't say on a good tree you might find some bad fruit – like some of it is overripe or rotten. That is thinking about quality of fruit – but Jesus is speaking of genus – oranges from an orange tree – apples from an apple tree, figs from a fig tree, etc…So I'm not accusing anyone of being a false apostle or prophet. If they're not a ravenous wolf or some glory hound claiming that God sent them [like the false apostles of II Corinthians 11:3-15] – maybe they're just a Christian who feels insecure and is looking for an ego boost – perhaps they mean well – but this assumption of self-importance [which I've seen all too much back in TWI] rallies Christians around a mere human – hero worship.
I don't have a problem with people wanting to teach others and to care for the church. Why does it have to be authorized with some self-assumed title or office? Throwing around these titles just hits me as a way to gain influence over others. Appeals are made to the authority of Scripture – when they wish to amass more authority for themselves. I think the biblical definition of apostle stresses divine choice, divine training and divine empowerment – but what I've seen from some people who love to flaunt the ordination badge – is their love for a divine position.
What's wrong with just being a Christian? I liked one definition of humility I read - I think it's from Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life: true humility is not thinking less of yourself – but thinking of yourself less. Why are some so concerned with titles and church offices or positions? Is it a desire for greater recognition, more power, and influence, to boost their self-esteem? Not all – but there were some of the TWI clergy I dealt with that were so full of themselves…Why do I need a title to help my fellow Christian? What's fun about pretending we're the First Century Church right down to the way we talk, think, live? Playing make-believe doesn't make believers out of anyone.
Ephisians is pretty clear in chapter 4 that the Lord gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists and some to be pastors and teachers. IMHO there are those that have been called by the Lord to operate in these ministries for the perfecting of the saints. I don't see anywhere in scripture where it says that we have come to the place of perfection, so therefore, I believe that these ministries are still something that tha body needs to provide a service to the saints.
Yes, OldMan – I can understand that viewpoint. However, I get the idea from the scriptural references listed in the texts I quoted that there was something exceptional about an apostle. Like it was designed for a specific time-frame – the beginning of the church. That's just my opinion – and it sort of goes hand-in-hand with what I think of speaking in tongues. From the grammatical evidence in Corinthians it looks to me like speaking in tongues had a limited "lifespan." Furthermore it was a specific sign to the Jews at that time – as well as being something that further validated the ministry of the apostles.
Oh - and excuse my poor manners - welcome to GSC, OldMan! The first round of cappuccino is on me.
I agree with you to one extent, and that is that the apostles were someone exceptional. That is why I don't believe any church or ministry can assign these titles to people of their choosing. I do believe that the fruit these people produce is what will deterimine if they are truly operating one of the gift ministries. However, I belive scripture is very clear about the ministries being needed by the church. I don't believe from the scriptural evidence that these functions were exclusively for the new church or to the jews specifically. It appears to me that the church is in as much need today as it was in Paul's day when the epistles were written. As God says, " there is nothing new under the sun".
I think it also is sad that many people try and equate fruit with works... Yes, we are all humans and make mistakes. Our "works" and "actions" are not always indicative of our heart, nor do they necessarily show our fruit... But just as Galatians is clear to point out, the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.. and it's by that outcome that we ought to be aware. Do the actions of those in charge of CES produce love, joy, peace, patience, kindness....?? It's a honest question that needs to be honestly addressed.
Anyone can act "loving", anyone can work at being "kind", but just acting that way or having the fruit of love and kindness are still 2 completely different things. And as our Lord said, You will know them by their fruit. Because it will show in everything they do. Not just one thing, not just a few places, but throughout their life just as "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he".
Now, I'm not going to be the one here to judge the heart of JL or MG or JS. But I know for myself that I haven't seen much good fruit from the STFI Board. All I see is men trying to be the "leader" without leading. Men trying to draw men after themselves, their teachings, and their orginization rather than drawing men to follow Christ. Sure, they are loving, sincere, kind.. But all the times I have been around them it's all about their desire, their vision, their way.. No different than the Way, TWI.. How many times I myself remember when I was in TWI that I did the same. Go witness, and my mission was to draw men unto ourselves. Bring them into our "family" or "household"... When all along, God didn't say to go do that.. He said share the good news, heal the sick, bless those who persecute you, care for the homeless, feed the needy, clothe the naked..
Do they do that? Do they give out the good news? Give it away to those who aren't a part of "THEIR" organization without the impulse to try and draw them unto their own? Give it to those in need without an ulterior motive? No.. They draw men to themselves so they can spoon feed them in hopes they will eventually "follow" them.. It's the TWI way as well as many other religios groups way.. And I know it well because I myself did the same. With the same ulterior motive that I just ignored or subdued thinkiing I'm helping these folks.. No I'm not.. I'm really helping them so that possibly they will do what I really want, like maybe come to fellowship, take a class, buy a book.. Whatever... Been there, done that, repented, and have moved on..
No where in the scriptures did Paul ask men to follow him.. NOWHERE! And maybe some here might recall a verse or two about "Be ye followerers of me".. Well, guess you never read it in the Greek.. Imitators folks.. That's all.. There were no followers of Paul, there were imitators, because as Paul said, imitate me as I imitate Christ. Imitate Christ as He imitated his Father. So just as you saw Christ you saw His Father, and just as you saw Paul in those ways he imitated our Lord, you saw Christ. Are these guys folks you want to imitate? If so, take those things worthy of imitating and get busy following Christ. If not, still get busy following Christ. But to follow them, to follow their ministry, to follow their organization, that's downright STUPID! Idiotic. The ways of men, that's all it is.
Stop trying to make yourself like the other religious groups have.. Saul was not God's choice. A human king for Israel was not God's choice. Nor is a man-made organization Christ's choice for His body..
I agree with you to one extent, and that is that the apostles were someone exceptional. That is why I don't believe any church or ministry can assign these titles to people of their choosing. I do believe that the fruit these people produce is what will deterimine if they are truly operating one of the gift ministries. However, I belive scripture is very clear about the ministries being needed by the church. I don't believe from the scriptural evidence that these functions were exclusively for the new church or to the jews specifically. It appears to me that the church is in as much need today as it was in Paul's day when the epistles were written. As God says, " there is nothing new under the sun".
-Oldman
I love it!
...2. T-Bone
Thanks for the juicy serving of meat.
3. The whole apostleship of John Lynn is strictly my own thought.
Please don't let anybody get mad at him for that.
John has never claimed such a title.
No one else I know has made that claim as far as I can recall.
and I reserve my right to change my mind later about any and all of what I've said.
( see T-Bone's line about tyranny as my justification for that escape clause)
(( or as my Catholic aunt likes to say...
"Blessed are the flexible
for they will not get bent out off shape" ))
...
Man oh man! Between OldMan's avatar and you having a screen name of Prophet – I'm starting to get a little gun-shy – golly gee – look at my avatar – I'm just a little kid! But I will show some respect for my elders – "Yo, waitress – another round of cappuccino for everybody!"…Seriously – I have a lot of respect for the attitude you both have. I really love your Catholic Aunt's quote about being flixible...GSC is a great place to think out loud – a place of give and take…Doctrinal might be a good place for someone to start a thread on apostles – if there hasn't been one already – man, check out the archives – there's some threads that are so old – the posters used hieroglyphics and cave-drawings.
"…Jesus said you'll spot them by their predatory traits [being like ravenous wolves] and the fruits of their labor [the end result of their work]. For our Lord to leave such simple directions - it can't be too hard to miss. He indicated the type of tree is known by the type of fruit – He didn't say on a good tree you might find some bad fruit – like some of it is overripe or rotten. That is thinking about quality of fruit – but Jesus is speaking of genus – oranges from an orange tree – apples from an apple tree, figs from a fig tree, etc…So I'm not accusing anyone of being a false apostle or prophet. If they're not a ravenous wolf or some glory hound claiming that God sent them [like the false apostles of II Corinthians 11:3-15]"
Considering this
I find myself at the crux of the dilimna.
Is S&T a good tree with some over ripe or rotten fruit?
Or is it a bad tree with bad fruit?
Is John Lynn a good tree, so to speak,
or Mark G or any one of us?
Are we rotten to the core?
If one of those people have offended me,
do I have the right to cast them off and throw them into the fire?
Is this process really necessary?
Is it right to disconnect from them?
What do we do with people when they are disobedient to the Truth?
( which I have been many times )
I don't know, but I know Him who does.
What would Jesus do?
I believe that Jesus Christ saw this whole problem,
and laid down his life,
and died for them,
that he might redeem them.
I believe that John and Mark have believed in Christ,
and have received his divine and incorruptable nature.
As such they are able to produce good fruit.
I am praying that instead of opting for divorce,
that the Love of Christ will constrain them,
and they will obey the truth,
and be reconciled .
and I believe this is just one more fiery trial of our Faith,
in which our Lord Christ Jesus is working to purify unto himself a people
Trust and Obey.....you wrote.....There were no followers of Paul, there were imitators, because as Paul said, imitate me as I imitate Christ. Imitate Christ as He imitated his Father. So just as you saw Christ you saw His Father, and just as you saw Paul in those ways he imitated our Lord, you saw Christ. Are these guys folks you want to imitate? If so, take those things worthy of imitating and get busy following Christ. If not, still get busy following Christ. But to follow them, to follow their ministry, to follow their organization, that's downright STUPID! Idiotic. The ways of men, that's all it is.
This is SOOOOOOOO right on! Wow! THANK YOU for the clarification!
Yippee!
Fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace...golly! I'vee been able to quote that for 4 decades, so now maybe I could see that it tells me what Fruit is.....Churches, pastors, etc. may talk of fruit...but you're right TandO, they often mean works. 'See how many books we've sold, meetings we've held, what our Sunday service attendance numbers are.'
It could be that reading their books brings more love, joy, peace into readers' lives...it could be that their meetings are full of and cause in me more longsuffering, gentleness and goodness...and it could be that their Sunday services produce faith, meekness and temperance in those who attend.....but it could be that they don't, too! And either way, the latter is the fruit, not the former!!
Hello Grace! Time to wake up!
I love it!
But.....there's more.....
I'm not to follow, I'm to imitate.
The question is simply.......do I want to imitate a CES BOD member, an Episcopal minister, Joyce Meyer or any Christian 'leadership'? How simple is that?????!
The question is simply.......do I want to imitate a CES BOD member, an Episcopal minister, Joyce Meyer or any Christian 'leadership'? How simple is that?????!
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rascal
Not to mention the mixing metaphors. Jesus said that you CAN`T get good fruit from a bad tree or bad fruit from a good tree....the only thing to do was to uproot the tree entirely, if my memory serves correct.
I think that if you haven`t had genuinely wholesome fruit, it is easy to pretend that the garbage that you are currently consuming isn`t all that bad.
The whole eat the fish and spit out the bones analogy that John Lynn fans are so fond of quoting is simply bogus from a scriptural point of view.
You have to get humble and start all over again, otherwise you are simply trying to patch up a crumbling foundation.
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Ham
Reminds me of a line in Jurrasic Park.. "naw, all these dinosaurs can't reproduce.."
"how do you know? has somebody gone out, pulled up their skirts, and checked?"
"naw, no need.. we KNOW".
Paraphrase, at the best..
But really.. if a person is sold on the the basis of the dynamics of somebody's presentation, I think the person is "bewitched".
In Galatians terms, that is.
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Estimated Prophet
Mark:
Good points.
I trust we have all learned more about the spiritual battle since the Athletes of the Spirit drama.
Mostly that the Man of God does not replace the Absent Christ.
That was indeed an arrogant attitude.
Jesus Christ is very present in our lives
and he is indeed the one we need to look to
for guidance and protection and all those things pertaining to life and godliness.
He alone is The Master Apostle.
Rejoicing in Him and that our names are written in heaven is very powerful.
Ham,
Your assessment of JL may be different from mine,
and we may rub each other the wrong way,
but I agree that there are wolves in sheeps clothing to beware of.
Likewise False Apostles and False Prophets,
and I'm not sure how to determine where an Apostle or Prophet crosses the line and becomes False.
Just where should we draw the line
God have Mercy on them.
For what it's worth,
my definition of an Apostle is much different from what I learned as a Roman Catholic,
or later as a PFAL Grad.
I don't see an Apostle as a 'super-human' so much any more,
just someone with a calling to care for the Church.
someone capable of being wrong at times.
You are right on to reference Galations regarding these things in my opinion.
Rascal,
in my humble opinion...
If we ripped out every tree that produced any bad fruit,
how many trees would be left?
I know what Jesus said,
but believe his meaning was similar to the admonition
of cutting off your right hand if it offends you.
I don't think he wants us to carry out those orders so literally,
but wants us to see the importance of walking rightly.
I also see my Savior as the husbandman who interceeded for the corrupt tree;
persuading the Master to let him dung the tree and redeem it back to a healthy state.
This is how I believe my Lord Jesus is perceiving the leadership with S&T now.
I believe he is actively working to open their eyes and help them to see what went wrong,
and how to correct it.
I believe in all of those people and their desire to allow the Lord to work.
Eating the fish and spitting out the bones is not bogus.
"Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good" says the same thing in my mind.
In my opinion,
If you think you're in a place or with people where there is no bad fruit at all,
Then I think you'd better open your eyes.
Or maybe I'm just cynical
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excathedra
i think i'm in a place where there is nothing but bad fruit :)
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Billy D
I lost track of this thread for a while, but while scanning I noticed this post. Just so that you ALL know: JAL is NOT paid by STF or supported by donations to STF in ANY way. He's spent the past few years building an SAT prep business and it's successful enough to support him fully. He doesn't even travel and live "from the can" as an official ambassador for STF. Most of the travelling he does now is to spend time with his daughter, son-in-law, and his grandchildren.
Just thought I'd clear that up. And please note: this is only a specific response to clarify an incorrect statement and NOT an endorsement of everything CES/STF/JAL/BOD/etc/etc.
Thanks!
~B
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excathedra
thanks billy
really ?
he comes from money, no ? i'm not being mean, i'm just asking....
but he should step back.... all those spiders and taking the advice about his wife....
too weird.....
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Mark Sanguinetti
Estimated, CES got the saying of "eat the fish and throw away the bones" from a ministry in Florida who have used it to justify a number of false prophecies. No one in CES came up with this saying themselves. How does this saying compare to Jesus' words below? If there seems to be a contradiction wouldn't it be better to go with Jesus' words and wisdom instead. Didn't Jesus also say to beware of the leaven of the pharisees?
Matthew 7:15-20
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
NIV
Matt 16:5-12
5 And the disciples came to the other side and had forgotten to take bread. 6 And Jesus said to them, "Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." 7 And they began to discuss among themselves, saying, "It is because we took no bread." 8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, "You men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselves that you have no bread? 9 "Do you not yet understand or remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets you took up? 10 "Or the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many large baskets you took up? 11 "How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." 12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
NAS
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Billy D
Sort of, but he's not supported by that money, to my knowledge.
He has stepped way back from where he's been in the past. I dunno....I knew of "things" going on b/t him and Elizabeth, but it was all top secret and I definitely was fed the G/R end of it. I'm so sad about it and just sickened thinking about what really went on, right under my nose (with people hinting at the truth but me not wanting to believe it). Then the sights were turned on my wife - now THAT woke me up.
Every day I ask God to help me to stand in integrity and love, and I ask Him to help me sort out the conflicted feelings I have for people I genuinely love and care for....but am so disappointed in. I'm sure the same can be said for me....I am human after all and oh so aware of it.
:)
~B
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excathedra
i'm so sorry about your wife
and yes we are all are SO human
take care
ps. i'm very aware myself
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rascal
Estimated Prophet, I am glad that you can discuss these ideas with me without being defensive and mean.
Looking at what you say from my point of view however, it appears that you are having to twist/ignore scripture in order to maintain you current belief system. I think that is part of what makes twi dogma an unsound foundation to build your house upon.
The way I see it.....either Jesus` word`s are true or they aren`t. I think that he meant it when he told us that a bad tree does not bear good fruit....that he told us what fruit to look for in recognising one another.
I think that Galatians lists fruit and tells us which is which. Those that manifest that fruit of the flesh ....have no inheritance in the kingdom of God....read it...there is no room to wiggle.
Too bad vp and the leaders DIDN`T take the verse you spoke of litterally and cut off their *offending body members* it would have saved a whole lot of pain and heart ache.
Oh, and far as a place where the fruit from the tree is good? Since leaving twi, I have seen it, I have seen genuine christians, people who manifest the fruit of the spirit. You do a great many people who DO manage to walk in the spirit a disservice in declaring it not possible.
It CAN be done. I have seen it.
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therebutforgrace
Rascal wrote..... You have to get humble and start all over again, otherwise you are simply trying to patch up a crumbling foundation.
AMEN!
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GrouchoMarxJr
First of all, I'm not so sure that these guys (CES "leaders") are even sincere in what they do and say...but let's assume for a moment that they are...
...who in their right mind would follow these clowns? They seem to have more personal "issues" than most people I know...and they're supposed to be leading? Leading whom?...and to where? Personally, I think this whole CES "thing" would make a good sitcom on TV. Anybody who places their spiritual life in the hands of these guys is making a very sad choice.
Wierwille set the pattern that all these guys follow...they tweak their doctrines so that they can claim to be "different" than twi...HOGWASH I say! These people decided not to attend a real Christian church because THEY wanted to be the "special ones" who stood on the stage and put on their show...they are self deluded egomaniacs with a false sense of humility...
When you die and face the Lord are you gonna say "I knew John Lynn"?
...seek the Lord, forget the cults....IMNSHO.
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T-Bone
I'm not an authority on the subject either – and on something like this I usually check out some biblical scholars on it, see what Scriptural references they see as relevant. The following excerpts from The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, General Editor Geoffrey Bromiley, APOSTLE, Volume 1, page 193, 195:
"…In most of the approximately eighty cases in which the word "apostle" in the NT, it refers to the Twelve or to Paul. Their unique place is based upon the resurrected Jesus' having appeared to them and having commissioned them to proclaim the gospel as the eschatological action of God in Christ. As witnesses of Jesus' resurrection [Matthew 28; Like 24; Acts 1:22; 10:41; I Corinthians 9:1; 15:4] and sole witnesses of His ascension [Acts 1:9-13], they are the guarantors of His resurrection…Moreover, the risen Lord has particularly empowered them by the Holy Spirit for their whole ministry of witnessing, preaching, working miracles, establishing and guiding churches [John 20:22; Acts 1:8; II Corinthians 12:12; Romans 15:1; I Corinthians 2], and bearing hardships, shame, and suffering for Jesus' sake [Acts 5:40f.; 12:1-4; Philippians 3:8; I Corinthians 9:1]…The apostles are regarded as setting the norms of doctrine and fellowship [Acts 2:42], the marking posts [Galatians 2:9], the rule by which one must measure his preaching [Galatians 2:2], the foundation [Ephesians 2:20; Revelation 21:14; I Corinthians 3:11]…[page 193]
…By his apostolic commission Paul was separated from all other interests to God's gospel concerning His Son [Romans 1:1-3; I Corinthians 1:1,17; Galatians 1:15;2:7; Acts 22:14-17]. Other disciples had a long period of training fro their apostleship, but by this great encounter Christ made Paul forever His bond slave, debtor, and apostle [Romans 1:1,15]…In his letters to the church in Corinth Paul is constantly wringing all self-adulation out of his ministry that men may glory only in Christ…" [page 195]
End of excerpts
And excerpts from The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, General Editor Merrill Tenney, APOSTLE, Volume 1, page 218, 219:
"…Emphasis is laid on the divine choice [Acts 1:24]. The apostleship of Paul was also due to the divine choice and he was often at pains to point this out, both to emphasize the wonder of the grace of God, and to maintain the authority of his own message [Galatians 1:1,11,12,15-17. cf. Romans 1:1; I Corinthians 1:1; 9:1; 15:8]. There could be no substitute for a personal call from Christ to this service…
…The work of a true apostle was accompanied by signs and wonders and mighty works [iI Corinthians 12:12], though such things are regarded as peripheral compared with Christian converts …"
End of excerpts
So – is a false apostle one who deviates from the above criteria? Well, for starters – are they an eye-witness of Christ's resurrection?...perhaps someone can show me in the Bible where the office of an apostle is necessary after the establishment of the church. Besides…we still have an apostle - - and high priest – Jesus Christ [Hebrews 3:1] – He is the sent one…with the rights, power and authority of the one who sent Him.
One of the simplest teachings on false prophets is in Matthew 7:15-20 NIV
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
…Jesus said you'll spot them by their predatory traits [being like ravenous wolves] and the fruits of their labor [the end result of their work]. For our Lord to leave such simple directions - it can't be too hard to miss. He indicated the type of tree is known by the type of fruit – He didn't say on a good tree you might find some bad fruit – like some of it is overripe or rotten. That is thinking about quality of fruit – but Jesus is speaking of genus – oranges from an orange tree – apples from an apple tree, figs from a fig tree, etc…So I'm not accusing anyone of being a false apostle or prophet. If they're not a ravenous wolf or some glory hound claiming that God sent them [like the false apostles of II Corinthians 11:3-15] – maybe they're just a Christian who feels insecure and is looking for an ego boost – perhaps they mean well – but this assumption of self-importance [which I've seen all too much back in TWI] rallies Christians around a mere human – hero worship.
I don't have a problem with people wanting to teach others and to care for the church. Why does it have to be authorized with some self-assumed title or office? Throwing around these titles just hits me as a way to gain influence over others. Appeals are made to the authority of Scripture – when they wish to amass more authority for themselves. I think the biblical definition of apostle stresses divine choice, divine training and divine empowerment – but what I've seen from some people who love to flaunt the ordination badge – is their love for a divine position.
What's wrong with just being a Christian? I liked one definition of humility I read - I think it's from Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life: true humility is not thinking less of yourself – but thinking of yourself less. Why are some so concerned with titles and church offices or positions? Is it a desire for greater recognition, more power, and influence, to boost their self-esteem? Not all – but there were some of the TWI clergy I dealt with that were so full of themselves…Why do I need a title to help my fellow Christian? What's fun about pretending we're the First Century Church right down to the way we talk, think, live? Playing make-believe doesn't make believers out of anyone.
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oldman
T-Bone,
Ephisians is pretty clear in chapter 4 that the Lord gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists and some to be pastors and teachers. IMHO there are those that have been called by the Lord to operate in these ministries for the perfecting of the saints. I don't see anywhere in scripture where it says that we have come to the place of perfection, so therefore, I believe that these ministries are still something that tha body needs to provide a service to the saints.
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cman
And it's a shame that some here don't see the ones here.
An organization is not God, therefore they can't give these gifts.
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T-Bone
Yes, OldMan – I can understand that viewpoint. However, I get the idea from the scriptural references listed in the texts I quoted that there was something exceptional about an apostle. Like it was designed for a specific time-frame – the beginning of the church. That's just my opinion – and it sort of goes hand-in-hand with what I think of speaking in tongues. From the grammatical evidence in Corinthians it looks to me like speaking in tongues had a limited "lifespan." Furthermore it was a specific sign to the Jews at that time – as well as being something that further validated the ministry of the apostles.
Oh - and excuse my poor manners - welcome to GSC, OldMan! The first round of cappuccino is on me.
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oldman
T-Bone,
I agree with you to one extent, and that is that the apostles were someone exceptional. That is why I don't believe any church or ministry can assign these titles to people of their choosing. I do believe that the fruit these people produce is what will deterimine if they are truly operating one of the gift ministries. However, I belive scripture is very clear about the ministries being needed by the church. I don't believe from the scriptural evidence that these functions were exclusively for the new church or to the jews specifically. It appears to me that the church is in as much need today as it was in Paul's day when the epistles were written. As God says, " there is nothing new under the sun".
-Oldman
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TrustAndObey
I think it also is sad that many people try and equate fruit with works... Yes, we are all humans and make mistakes. Our "works" and "actions" are not always indicative of our heart, nor do they necessarily show our fruit... But just as Galatians is clear to point out, the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.. and it's by that outcome that we ought to be aware. Do the actions of those in charge of CES produce love, joy, peace, patience, kindness....?? It's a honest question that needs to be honestly addressed.
Anyone can act "loving", anyone can work at being "kind", but just acting that way or having the fruit of love and kindness are still 2 completely different things. And as our Lord said, You will know them by their fruit. Because it will show in everything they do. Not just one thing, not just a few places, but throughout their life just as "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he".
Now, I'm not going to be the one here to judge the heart of JL or MG or JS. But I know for myself that I haven't seen much good fruit from the STFI Board. All I see is men trying to be the "leader" without leading. Men trying to draw men after themselves, their teachings, and their orginization rather than drawing men to follow Christ. Sure, they are loving, sincere, kind.. But all the times I have been around them it's all about their desire, their vision, their way.. No different than the Way, TWI.. How many times I myself remember when I was in TWI that I did the same. Go witness, and my mission was to draw men unto ourselves. Bring them into our "family" or "household"... When all along, God didn't say to go do that.. He said share the good news, heal the sick, bless those who persecute you, care for the homeless, feed the needy, clothe the naked..
Do they do that? Do they give out the good news? Give it away to those who aren't a part of "THEIR" organization without the impulse to try and draw them unto their own? Give it to those in need without an ulterior motive? No.. They draw men to themselves so they can spoon feed them in hopes they will eventually "follow" them.. It's the TWI way as well as many other religios groups way.. And I know it well because I myself did the same. With the same ulterior motive that I just ignored or subdued thinkiing I'm helping these folks.. No I'm not.. I'm really helping them so that possibly they will do what I really want, like maybe come to fellowship, take a class, buy a book.. Whatever... Been there, done that, repented, and have moved on..
No where in the scriptures did Paul ask men to follow him.. NOWHERE! And maybe some here might recall a verse or two about "Be ye followerers of me".. Well, guess you never read it in the Greek.. Imitators folks.. That's all.. There were no followers of Paul, there were imitators, because as Paul said, imitate me as I imitate Christ. Imitate Christ as He imitated his Father. So just as you saw Christ you saw His Father, and just as you saw Paul in those ways he imitated our Lord, you saw Christ. Are these guys folks you want to imitate? If so, take those things worthy of imitating and get busy following Christ. If not, still get busy following Christ. But to follow them, to follow their ministry, to follow their organization, that's downright STUPID! Idiotic. The ways of men, that's all it is.
Stop trying to make yourself like the other religious groups have.. Saul was not God's choice. A human king for Israel was not God's choice. Nor is a man-made organization Christ's choice for His body..
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Estimated Prophet
I love it!
Lot's of heat lightning is flashing in my heart as I read.
Three things.
1 God Bless You Billy.
It's people like you that my heart grieves for and I totally understand and share the conflicted emotions.
2. T-Bone
Thanks for the juicy serving of meat.
3. The whole apostleship of John Lynn is strictly my own thought.
Please don't let anybody get mad at him for that.
John has never claimed such a title.
No one else I know has made that claim as far as I can recall.
and I reserve my right to change my mind later about any and all of what I've said.
( see T-Bone's line about tyranny as my justification for that escape clause)
(( or as my Catholic aunt likes to say...
"Blessed are the flexible
for they will not get bent out off shape" ))
I imaging John would be uncomfortable with me calling him such,
but I believe he functions as an apostle.
I agree that Eph 4 indicates apostles are still needed in the church.
I also think the bible lists more than Paul and the twelve , such as Barnabus, in the 1st century church
Read 11Corinthians 11 ff and notice what a scandal the apostleship of Paul stirred up.
His opponents in the church certainly had a solid basis to find him suspect .
I don't know, I just know Him who does.
and yes, the gift ministries are functioning here
and the genuine ones I encounter (IMO) prefer not to have the title
and genuinely give all praise and glory to God.
May the Lord give us understanding in all things.
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T-Bone
Man oh man! Between OldMan's avatar and you having a screen name of Prophet – I'm starting to get a little gun-shy – golly gee – look at my avatar – I'm just a little kid! But I will show some respect for my elders – "Yo, waitress – another round of cappuccino for everybody!"…Seriously – I have a lot of respect for the attitude you both have. I really love your Catholic Aunt's quote about being flixible...GSC is a great place to think out loud – a place of give and take…Doctrinal might be a good place for someone to start a thread on apostles – if there hasn't been one already – man, check out the archives – there's some threads that are so old – the posters used hieroglyphics and cave-drawings.
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Estimated Prophet
" You will know them by their fruits"
Matthew 7:16
T-Bone states:
"…Jesus said you'll spot them by their predatory traits [being like ravenous wolves] and the fruits of their labor [the end result of their work]. For our Lord to leave such simple directions - it can't be too hard to miss. He indicated the type of tree is known by the type of fruit – He didn't say on a good tree you might find some bad fruit – like some of it is overripe or rotten. That is thinking about quality of fruit – but Jesus is speaking of genus – oranges from an orange tree – apples from an apple tree, figs from a fig tree, etc…So I'm not accusing anyone of being a false apostle or prophet. If they're not a ravenous wolf or some glory hound claiming that God sent them [like the false apostles of II Corinthians 11:3-15]"
Considering this
I find myself at the crux of the dilimna.
Is S&T a good tree with some over ripe or rotten fruit?
Or is it a bad tree with bad fruit?
Is John Lynn a good tree, so to speak,
or Mark G or any one of us?
Are we rotten to the core?
If one of those people have offended me,
do I have the right to cast them off and throw them into the fire?
Is this process really necessary?
Is it right to disconnect from them?
What do we do with people when they are disobedient to the Truth?
( which I have been many times )
I don't know, but I know Him who does.
What would Jesus do?
I believe that Jesus Christ saw this whole problem,
and laid down his life,
and died for them,
that he might redeem them.
I believe that John and Mark have believed in Christ,
and have received his divine and incorruptable nature.
As such they are able to produce good fruit.
I am praying that instead of opting for divorce,
that the Love of Christ will constrain them,
and they will obey the truth,
and be reconciled .
and I believe this is just one more fiery trial of our Faith,
in which our Lord Christ Jesus is working to purify unto himself a people
who are zealous for good works.
He has the Words of life
So I'll be holding on to him
all the way to Glory
but
what a long strange trip it's been !!
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Tom Strange
gosh ...what are you saying myseestorEx??? ...am I ??? oh no!!!!
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therebutforgrace
Trust and Obey.....you wrote.....There were no followers of Paul, there were imitators, because as Paul said, imitate me as I imitate Christ. Imitate Christ as He imitated his Father. So just as you saw Christ you saw His Father, and just as you saw Paul in those ways he imitated our Lord, you saw Christ. Are these guys folks you want to imitate? If so, take those things worthy of imitating and get busy following Christ. If not, still get busy following Christ. But to follow them, to follow their ministry, to follow their organization, that's downright STUPID! Idiotic. The ways of men, that's all it is.
This is SOOOOOOOO right on! Wow! THANK YOU for the clarification!
Yippee!
Fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace...golly! I'vee been able to quote that for 4 decades, so now maybe I could see that it tells me what Fruit is.....Churches, pastors, etc. may talk of fruit...but you're right TandO, they often mean works. 'See how many books we've sold, meetings we've held, what our Sunday service attendance numbers are.'
It could be that reading their books brings more love, joy, peace into readers' lives...it could be that their meetings are full of and cause in me more longsuffering, gentleness and goodness...and it could be that their Sunday services produce faith, meekness and temperance in those who attend.....but it could be that they don't, too! And either way, the latter is the fruit, not the former!!
Hello Grace! Time to wake up!
I love it!
But.....there's more.....
I'm not to follow, I'm to imitate.
The question is simply.......do I want to imitate a CES BOD member, an Episcopal minister, Joyce Meyer or any Christian 'leadership'? How simple is that?????!
Thanks, TandO!
Wow.
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Tom Strange
ummm... Paul?
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