Actually Groucho. CES leadership thinks they have created a number of prophets and propheteses. They even had some kind of a prophets board where some of the wannabees could all compare notes of what kind of prophecies they could come up with. That is how CES got the Elizabeth so called prophecies. Surprise, surprise, I think they may have had to disband it though. Maybe the participants got a little to big headed if you know what I mean. Others may have more details on this. I am wondering how many others like Estimated are out there trying to BS there way into being esteemed and subtly worshiped in the body of Christ? My advise for you all, if you are out there reading this. If you come here on Grease Spot Cafe and try to bambozzle us with BS, you will be exposed. Your exposure may be right away or we may be in a generous mood and let you post your propaganda for a while just to check you out a bit more. However, if you come her with bad fruit similar to what we experienced in TWI you will be exposed. This is nothing personal mind you. And in exposing you we are actually trying to help you to become more Christ like.
Oh and I almost forget.
God Bless you.
We love you.
You are the best. (Or at least we want you to be.)
And Gracie I am sorry that Estimated picked up a few bad habits while he was in CES. But some of us can not in good conscience let this charade go on and on here.
You know Estimated, I can see a real disconnect going on in your words and from this your thinking on this matter. Has anyone from Grease Spot Cafe ever sued a brother or a sister in the name of Christian ministry? Has anyone here seen spiders coming out of others noses or demons infested in others and then used this as a smear tactic for political/religious gain? And tell us how your own words, essentially telling others to pay special attention to all the demons supposedly causing all the problems in the world compare with Jesus' words in the gospels, when he said to rejoice not that we have power over demons, but to rejoice that our names are written in heaven? You know I have heard to much of what you are bringing to the table here with your in essence, glorificiation of demons to let your comments slip idily under the table. We saw this with TWI and now we are seeing this with some of your posts here. This may sound blunt, but you really sound like a double minded man. You are not doing yourself or others any favors with your thinking and words. If you want to truly be an example of Christ and be kind, tender hearted, forgiving one another as Christ forgave you as you profess at the beginning of your post above then please do so. But don't get side tracked any longer on this subtle form of demon worship like we had in TWI that your last post is clearly professing. Am I making myself clear on this? Or can you not see that most of your above post does not glorify Jesus Christ or speak edification, but instead tells others to mostly look out and watch out for demons which it sounds like you see behind every bush and under every table. Your words and fixation is first of all harmful to yourself, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. Secondarily it makes a mockery of what it is to be a minister of the Lord Jesus while spreading the gospel.
And another thing Estimated. We all have to take responsibility for our words and actions. This is so that we can grow up into him who is Christ Jesus. Let's pray that the CES leaders get a realization of what their words and actions have caused and how they have not always educated or shown Christ's love to others. In fact, that they have sometimes been destructive to others faith. If we are in grave error and don't really know about it. How are we going to grow up into Him, who is the head of the body, the Lord Jesus Christ?
WordWolf
Now we see the famous "Poisoning the Well."
I commented previously that one statement of his was
"flowery and beautiful", and that it seemed to be used to excuse
the harmful actions of others.
Notice how my POINT was never addressed.
Some people may suspect that this is because I was correct, and it's
impossible to try to successfuly deny what's plainly true.
That is, that he WAS trying to excuse HARMFUL deeds by saying
that SOME good deeds cancel them out, so that some harming is
FINE if you're making enough good deeds in EXCHANGE.
Now, also notice that NOBODY said-nor suggested- that his words
had NO SUBSTANCE. That's a strawman he's decided to introduce
all his own.
Further, the "waybrained parrot" thing comes out of nowhere also.
This is not treating the words of his brethren honestly.
This is not the proper way to treat the UNBELIEVER, let alone family.
Would Jesus recommend doing this?
Is this "fellowshipping in Light"?
Finally, this "weak-willed host to mind-controlling cult leaders" thing.
Not only was THIS charge also invented by the speaker to make
his dissenters sound like they're labelling him when it's actually
HIM doing the labelling,
it's being done in a fashion one might consider SYSTEMATIC,
as if he's been taught to do so.
In other words, we never CLAIMED he was being mind-controlled,
but since he's brought the subject up,
he's sure SOUNDING like he might be.
Well, HE was the one that was making the comparison...
All the nasty labels so far are the ones HE invented and claimed
WE put on him.
That's not "lovingkindness."
That's not the love of God.
That's not a good commercial, if you wanted to convince me your
church is a proper, godly one
Great work Word Wolf and Mark S! Sometimes I see people coming out of TWI or some offshoot – and it's striking the similarities I see in the way they relate to people. They're still operating on the interpersonal dynamics that are prone to self-deception and manipulation – whether they realize it or not. Well…that line of BS may fly in their group but they're putting a big "Kick Me" sign on their back if they think it's gonna fly on a website where we've all been burned by those shenanigans…And if they really have good intentions and/or a desire to get their head out of their A.S.S. [Absorbed Stupefying Shenanigans] perhaps they won't take the "confrontation" so personally. Speaking for myself – I don't view them as my spiritual enemy. For lack of a better analogy – I see it as their "operating system" [their interpersonal skills] being infected with a virus. The virus being the self-deceiving and manipulative social skills we adopted while in TWI.
Well, I'm certainly no expert on this stuff – but I'll say a few things since you asked. I think in some ways a dysfunctional "skill" can have a double-edge effect in that it does harm to both the one functioning this way [self-deception] as well as the one they're interacting with [they're being manipulated]. And for what it's worth – this is coming from my two-bit Christian perspective after my TWI experience. Not saying this is all right…just saying this is how I see things working. Can't cover it all – I'll just hit a few of the big ones.
Rationalization: A tendency to reason around the moral standards of Scripture assuming good intentions or a good heart will make up for any poor judgment on my part. It is elevating my heart [which Scripture says can be deceitful] to a position of supreme authority. I saw it in John Lynn's letter and in Estimated Prophet's posts – the way they assume having good intentions, a good heart, a heart for God's people will somehow translate into everything working out for the best. It's an assumption that God would honor that type of thinking – instead of me having to God's moral standards – why…He's nice enough to accommodate my shortcomings. I think many times this way of thinking is a lazy man's way to appease a guilty conscience or settle for a band aide on the boo boo. Instead of taking the time to commune with God AND my offended brother and resolve it the biblical way – I take a short cut – "Oh, you know my heart…now where's that love of God and forgiveness." A good case to study is the blameshifting Adam did after he sinned. He never saw that it was his fault.
Spiritualization: Man, this is a scary one! It was no joke in post # 444 – Prophet Foxworthy saying, "If you think the devil is on the attack every time followers start arguing amongst themselves – you might be a chip off the old cult." People start seeing devil spirits behind every tree and spiders up the noses of their opponents. I remember in the craziness right after Geer's Patriarch – people would say "The integrity of the Word's at stake!" rather than talk about anything specific that should be addressed…I don't buy that personal prophecy stuff. People sacrifice thinking skills and their decision-making ability for the sake of chasing after a feeling, nailing down that "first thought" . What if those aren't spiders but boogers with legs? Reason is on vacation - feelings are running the show.
Delusions of Grandeur and Reverence of Leadership: These two kinda go hand in hand. I saw this when in TWI as well as on this thread. I thought I was involved in the only group that really matters –that's doing the best job for God – and the people that appeared to have totally sold out to that cause were deemed the most important in my book. My "ministry" takes on the proportions of the very church of Christ – it's all blended together in one big hodge podge of self-centeredness. People go ga-ga over gift ministries and titles. Arrogance reigns supreme.
Those were very good explanations T-Bone. Very good work bro.
And I was just thinking along the same lines as T-Bone, although perhaps not as eloquently. Think of all the pressure that must come to a MOG or junior MOG's mind when they think they always have to be right and spiritual all the time. It seems to leave no real time for inner reflection so that they can admit they are wrong at least once in a while and thereby begin to experience some genuine mental and spiritual growth. Instead there is always an excuse and the thought that since I am the MOG I must always be right. Certainly pride and arrogance are involved. Secondarily, down right fear that if one ever admits to making a mistake there ministry may come crashing down like a card game of 52 pick-up. Yet the reality is just the opposite. If one can admit fault perhaps others can help them through their crisis of faith. And certainly God through Christ can go to work internally to help get people back on track. And whatever happened to the scripture saying to esteem others more highly than yourself?
When I read EP’s post (not knowing who he is), I didn’t feel insulted and it didn’t occur to me he was trying to BS his way into being esteemed and subtly worshiped.
May I start with the first thing about not posting anymore?
Gulp. Remember, I’m a newbie...as I suppose is EP... so....I didn’t know, WW, that there even was a Standard Internet Procedure...so I might have broken several myself. And.....now I’m wondering if I should fear the day when I don’t post as often as I do now. I won’t be able to. I won’t feel the need to. Who knows? I’m not there yet. But when that day comes it won’t mean anything other than whatever my reason was.
Secondly.....we don’t know EP (Or anyone else who is anonymous, for that matter.)
(I only EP is not MG and he left CES 2+ years ago.)
That might have been his last post because he’s on an iron lung and his family doesn’t have the money to pay the internet connection fee any longer.... or because he's emptying his savings account to fly to Guatemala for a last ditch cancer treatment...
Really.
I learned long ago not to jump to conclusions based on my life’s experiences. Like Bumpy (on the ‘CES is in a Mess’ thread)....He’s in Africa. When he posted that, I realized I had assumed (and you know what that makes me) that all of us were typing from comfortable homes in America, as I am. No.....Bumpy has no doubt had to see and deal with things I will never see or deal with. I am so often humbled into asking God for forgiveness for my arrogance.....AGAIN. It is the sin that sooooo easily besets me.
Oh well...I'm just tossing in my two cents to say that it also didn’t occur to me to think EP was dumping me by saying this might be his last post. I just assumed his departure was his being practical for his own life.
============
WordWolf, I have yet to look up Bumpy’s Senegal, and now I have to look up anomalous!
============
Ham, you quoted EP: Our enemy is not John Lynn It is not Mark Graeser. It is not Victor Paul Wierwille
Then you wrote, Really? These jokers have MADE themselves "the enemy".
if EP believes Eph 6:12 applies to him, then isn’t GSC the place he can state it without being slapped? You and I don’t have to agree with him...although I do and in this case, the CES BOD has acted like my enemy.....(I’ve probably been on the receiving end of more of their evil than non-CES posters).....but my God tells me that even though they have acted like my enemy, they are not who I’m wrestling against and I choose to believe Him. So.....maybe that's why that’s all I thought EP was saying there.
============================
Rascal, that’s terrible, and I see how sheltered a life I lead to be surprised by it. I might seriously not buy Fritos again unless you say they’ve hanged management since then.
( lol..... ! ......I meant “changed management”, :D but think I’ll leave that typo!)
============================
Pond, great point to see that we at least give God equal time as satan... I stand reproved myself today. Thank you.
Knowing the CES folks for years, I don’t see them as ‘front line in satan’s arena’, but they did without question spread his evil too much in some areas for too long....(as had I when I began to wake up to it)
============================
T-bone, thank you! I do think it will help. More, please, anytime you like.
============================
Mark, You wrote.......Let's pray that the CES leaders get a realization of what their words and actions have caused and how they have not always educated or shown Christ's love to others. In fact, that they have sometimes been destructive to others faith. If we are in grave error and don't really know about it, how are we going to grow up into Him, who is the head of the body, the Lord Jesus Christ?
Amen!
And praise God some of them are beginning to learn of those errors.....
in all fairness to the estimated prophet, he/she may have gotten the "parroted" thing from my post (#440, following his/her initial post #439) where I did suggest that he/she was not using his/her brain for original thought... (which I still am inclined to believe BTW)... :)
Ham, you quoted EP: Our enemy is not John Lynn It is not Mark Graeser. It is not Victor Paul Wierwille
Then you wrote, Really? These jokers have MADE themselves "the enemy".
if EP believes Eph 6:12 applies to him, then isn’t GSC the place he can state it without being slapped? You and I don’t have to agree with him...although I do and in this case, the CES BOD has acted like my enemy.....(I’ve probably been on the receiving end of more of their evil than non-CES posters).....but my God tells me that even though they have acted like my enemy, they are not who I’m wrestling against and I choose to believe Him. So.....maybe that's why that’s all I thought EP was saying there.
I would agree that that is indeed what he thought.. but I can't give the devil that much glory.
People are people. Anger enough of them with enough arrogance, strife, bitterness, false prophecies, manipulation- and then blame the devil to get the heat off - well, it doesn't work with a lot of people any more.
I think it's even worse- they'd go back to business as usual if they could. J.L.'s letter called for some kind of christian unity by tapping back in his "root" because he thinks they have the best PACKAGE anywhere. "Making potshots" (rational and often LOVING comments) and "I told you so" not being an option.
The devil "wildcard" doesn't fit here, in my opinion.. they just aren't THAT important.
The old cathedrals had awful sculptures of different kinds of devils and gargoyles on the outside, some historians think to frighten the people with visions of what waited for them on the outside of the church, if they didn't obey, if they didn't tow the line..
There is a very fundamental and important point in all this. We are all equals. With regard to these discussions no one here is greater than the other. In contrast, when a person comes here and in his first post announces that John Lynn is an apostle and then names himself as a prophet, immediately the red flags should and do come up. And it is not that I don't believe that we all have our gifts and functions in the body of Christ because I do. However, let's show our gifts by the fruit that we bear rather than by a promotional campaign.
I would agree that that is indeed what he thought.. but I can't give the devil that much glory.
People are people. Anger enough of them with enough arrogance, strife, bitterness, false prophecies, manipulation- and then blame the devil to get the heat off - well, it doesn't work with a lot of people any more.
I think it's even worse- they'd go back to business as usual if they could. J.L.'s letter called for some kind of christian unity by tapping back in his "root" because he thinks they have the best PACKAGE anywhere. "Making potshots" (rational and often LOVING comments) and "I told you so" not being an option.
The devil "wildcard" doesn't fit here, in my opinion.. they just aren't THAT important.
The old cathedrals had awful sculptures of different kinds of devils and gargoyles on the outside, some historians think to frighten the people with visions of what waited for them on the outside of the church, if they didn't obey, if they didn't tow the line..
I think that is the same tactic here.
I agree.
It is like If you really have the truth and speak the ALL truth then well the devil will get you really bad! soldiers for christ on the front lines type of deal like they are the hero for taking the bullet.
kind of scary isnt it?
who wants to get into that ?
they do! so respect them . or in the very least feel sorry for them!
There-But- For Grace encouraged me to come back and learn what there is to be learned, and so I have.
Please forgive me for disconnecting, I simply don't have the time to be involved in these discussions. Grace decided to reconnect with me by P.M.ing me, and I really appreciate her love.
I have a a very good friend who warned me to stay away for my own good, and he was being wise. He knew it would hurt my heart. He was right.
Even though I was prepared for the reponse I still lost a good nights sleep sorting through it all,
and yes, I blame the wicked one for that.
I think will skip this dance.
I'm not going to go back and forth in doubtful disputations.
I can see who is orchestrating the dance and I don't like it.
That does not mean that I don't appreciate the genuine , godly elements of many posts.
I just see the same passion for Christ that oversteps its' bounds sometimes,
like has happened with the leadership of S&T, and misguidedly missed the mark.
I understand.
Will you forgive me if I have offended you in any way.
I am not alone in claiming that I have been very blessed with the teachings and fellowship opportunities provided by S&T over the years.
Why should that bother some of you?
After reading twenty something pages of attacking the integrity of my brothers in Christ and friends in the Faith I was compelled to speak up for them. They are really not as bad as this thread is making them out to be.
Perhaps thier sins and my sins seem to justify the need for open evil speaking,
but that is a sin too.
And for the record.
Evil influences do not excuse any of us for the wrong choices we make.
When I directed our attention to the spiritual realm it was to get to the root of the problem.
Also,
The name Estimated Prophet implies that I recognize my attempts to speak for Christ generally involves a degree of speculation. None of what I have written is what In would call "prophetic."
I also recognize that my affinity for the Grateful Dead is not likely to make a good impression on any one, but it does express a side of me I think you need to see. That Rock and Roll band has generated a culture of people (Cult?) which is another world unto itself.
It's impression on my soul cannot be denied regardless of all the Uncle Harry days I've celebrated.
but I digress...
Jesus Christ came to save sinners and reconcile us back to the Father.
He is able to purify us to be zealous of good works.
That is a process done in the goodness of God, in His unconditional Love,
and in the light of His Truth.
Our cooperation speeds up the process.
IJohn 1:1 addresses Christians and the sin factor in a very wonderful way.
My friend who warned me to stay away, who was wanting to protect my heart,
is someone who didn't speak to me for a good twelve years.
Our local leader had decided to rebuke me sharply before the whole church that my sin
(which I had openly owned up to for the purpose of getting right with God)
might be made known.
And then my closest friends wouldn't talk to me or my family any more.
Those wounds are healed, but most of those friendships are lost.
Why?
Was that process really necessary?
I can only speak what I have seen and heard.
I determined long ago that if my critics are right
and I am indeed bound for hell and deserve to be marked and avoided...
then I will point to Christ Jesus every step of the way
because I know he is our only hope for salvation.
That is why the break down in the CES pains me so much and weighs heavy on my heart.
Five years ago Mark and Dan were in town for a Time of Recociliation.
Now they will be opposing one another in a court of law.
How does that happen?
I have thought long and hard about it
and have to say the root cause is spiritual in nature
and it ain't holy spirit.
It's not my brothers in Christ who have destroyed relationships and such.
It is the same thief Jesus warned about in John 10:10.
and even if I sound paranoid,
it doesn't change the truth of God's Word.
Shall I defend the apostleship of John Lynn?
Shall I speak as a fool?
You can't deny that he has devoted his life to traveling the world,
teaching the bible,
and maintaining relationships with all the churches he has been called to minister to,
to the best of his ablity.
I am not the only one who has heard him teach
and found the Truth hit my heart like blasts of heat lightening.
I love those times.
In his sphere of influence his life has been on display,
and perhaps he has outdone the Apostle Paul
and become the "chiefest of all sinners"
The gifts and Callings of God are still without repentance.
God Bless Him !
I've had some very strong arguments with him, but he has never slammed the door in my face.
Jesus Christ is not ashamed to call him "Brother",
why should we?
And you who consider yourselves strong in the faith...
receive not them who are weak
unto doubtful disputations...
but receive one another
even as Christ Jesus has received you
(not imputing your tresspasses but cleansing you with his blood)
I think you misjudge what others are doing.. Are they denying Lynn or any in S&F of being of the brethren? No.. But what they are doing is blowing the horn and letting the church know there is a problem, and it is because they have refused to listen to one, and to a small group that have confronted them over and over. They need to be called out for what they have done and be held accountable to the entire church.. That's all..
No one is casting them out of the fellowship of saints, or out of the church body which is US, everyone, all those who procalim Jesus as their LORD!
However, their "leadership" abilities is definitely in question when they perform as they have shown to the past months and years.. It's a continuing thing my friend they they have shown themselves incapable of acting godly in such a position and as such should take a step back.
you know what? I also would love to say Im part of something that has the truth that has Gods true words to us, that has fine up-standing men willing to heed the Lords call and help us learn what the scriptures tell us.
but I have to admit my teacher is Christ alone.
and this leaves people pleasing and friendships and relationshps in a position of lesser than.
and it can hurt someone with a heart towards giving love back as we have received from the Lord.
you so concerned with how we treat one another forget they are the ones devouring one another?
they are the ones fighting in a fleshy relm of who is who and who God is telling who to?
they are not innocent, stop protecting a dream of a place where your leader is divine.
He is divine and His name is Jesus christ . theworld is not our home and to be the protector of all puts you in the very same areana that is what started their own fighting and division and true hate towards one another.
I've had some very strong arguments with him, but he has never slammed the door in my face.
He slammed it on ours:
If you know me and care about me, I’ll be glad to COMMUNICATE(?) with you. , I WILL NOT however, DIALOGUE with anonymous people who lack the love and courage to identify themselves in interacting with me.
Yeah, "call me". "now... what can 'I' do for you, Ham?"
Just what I need.. another session to learn proper posturing before the MOG..
Prophecy is prophecy, and to criticize “personal prophecy” as unbiblical, in and of itself, is contrary to Scripture. We have a book on Prophecy that deals with this subject in depth from the Word, which you can get from www.stfonline.org.
All of us have a carnal nature and if we don't choose to reckon it dead it remains alive and well and kicking! So we rant or rave or complain or murmur or..... and sometimes it's here on GS where it stays forever in print!!
Sometimes we don't separate the sin from the sinner...that's one of the reasons we needed a Savior. He showed us how. When we choose to put on the mind of Christ we do better than when we don't.
I repeat, sadly, that CES leadership has very much hurt my friends and family. And the END to their hurting anyone will begin to come by each of them waking up to the truth of how they have chosen to live in order to hurt people. Unfortunately, they did not hear people in private...and so it was taken public.
"Hope deferred makes the heart sick." Some people, who had hoped and assumed that the CES guys' good intentions were being lived out, seem to hurt all over again as much as they did when past church leadership (of any ilk) were found to be hurting people.....and we come full circle to ....ranting and raving, or at least not having on the mind of Christ, here at GS or in our thought life throughout the day.
But!!
God saves to the uttermost. Us...them...everyone.....
pond, let's see if this GS public wake-up call changes things before we keep speaking in the present tense about their devouring each other or other people. GSers might not see it without checking with some CESers...but Jesus will see it wherever it occurs.
Blips of humility have already shown up on the CES radar screen and apologies are being made person-to-person. It has to have a beginning. Let's keep them in prayer and believe that God can take this mess and turn it into many miracles.
Humility is always the beginning.
For me...for CES...for the world Christ died for.
Thank you GreaseSpots for helping to bring this about! God is thrilled with you!
As I said in an earlier post somewhere, there will come a time when I can no longer spend this much time at GS. And I fully intend to give my name and phone number and email address and say just about what JL said...I can't keep talking to everyone, but it's not personal. It's just not going to be available in my life for a while.
I in no way feel JL slammed the door in my face with his invitation to call or email him. I haven't taken him up on it yet, but it's open to me.
So will you type on for weeks after my life calls for me to be somewhere else more often than GS and say that I too slammed the door in your face? If so, please let me apologize ahead of time. I did in no way whatsoever mean to do so.
As for 'read my book', I don't think JL will be writing that given some time....his was a habitual (as we all know!) reaction there. And as for needing courage to talk to him in person, he is also beginning to see where he can apologize for that.
I am very grateful for those friends/family who gave me time when I screwed up my life. I wouldn't be typing to you today had they not done so. Maybe that's why I can give these guys some time (albeit keeping their feet tied to the holy spirit fire, as my friends and family did to mine!!)
Can we all agree that we want them to wake up and change?
I do not know why you feel you need to defend their behavours and attitudes.
Is it because you believe they are somehow a special people beyond what others may be called?
Ive been in this my enitre life, and you what? NO MORE!
be in denial make an excuse use a bible verse to justify their actions and call yourself a better christ follower all you want to.
it just isnt working for me anymore.
this attitude is
exactly why they have been able to finance what they have done to hurt people for many DECADES.
because now you to can be part of the super race of those God still considers better and more elect than the rest!!
because you can be more noble? I think not try more in denial and more willing to compromise truly what God calls good and right because you recognize their flesh in some way.
truth or tradition is the name of the web site
just what part of this are you clinging to NOW???
truth or the tradition that these guys can pull anything they chose to and somhow in our tradition of folowing their words we can twist and turn the facts and the truth to fill our tradition once again.
what a lie from hell what a total trip of denial to justify your own tradition you refuse to let go of.
As to what is flying around cyberspace about me and my personal life, my email is jalces@aol.com and my home phone is 317-849-5707. If you know me and care about me, I’ll be glad to communicate with you. I will not, however, dialogue with anonymous people who lack the love and courage to identify themselves in interacting with me.
TherebutforGrace, True, he refuses to dialog in a manner I would want, but that would make us equals.
I think he's been trained by the "best".
I've had REAL issues with some of these guys and called.. one on one.. "now, what can *I* (or "we")
do for you ham.. "
Their words drip like honey, their kind and beneficient "mogness" being without dispute..
Inside of ten minutes, I couldn't figure out what I called them about.. so much runaround, being subjected to every motivational technique known to the mind of man..
I got a nice warm, fuzzy feeling.. but it didn't solve anything.
The finger went back to ME. "Well, why do YOU have such a problem with forgiveness.."
"see, it isn't all as bad as you thought.."
"now, anything else *I* can do for you?"
No thanks.. I may have my faults, but I'm not the one who has a failing "ministry" and can't figure out why.
I don't think JL has a clue. It is far easier to just blame it on the devil.. I think he really believes what he says.
No potshots here, but JL's track record doesn't anywhere near qualify him for me to call him up for his advice.
Yeah.. it's my opinion, but I think he's saying "I'll dialog with those who CARE about (and I read it as RESPECT and ADORE) ME".
One guy here thinks JL is an apostle, convinced of it. No joke- I'm not being sarcastic here about it.. what convinced the guy? The nice warm, fuzzy feeling he got? The "accuracy" of the teachings? The "package"? The FEW "results" he could have found himself, by going to a reputable counsellor?
Generally I'm a happy go lucky type of a person, but that kinda chafes me..
I think they've gone the path of TWI in much of this.. some people laud vp's name to the sky, over twenty years after he's gone..
I think JL ought to read this stuff, and take an honest look at what his "package" is doing to people.
The guy thinks he's a prophet of sorts, and defends JL as an APOSTLE..
sheesh. How many more are there like that?
No wonder he won't debate in a manner that, yes, *I* would prefer..
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Mark Sanguinetti
Actually Groucho. CES leadership thinks they have created a number of prophets and propheteses. They even had some kind of a prophets board where some of the wannabees could all compare notes of what kind of prophecies they could come up with. That is how CES got the Elizabeth so called prophecies. Surprise, surprise, I think they may have had to disband it though. Maybe the participants got a little to big headed if you know what I mean.
Others may have more details on this. I am wondering how many others like Estimated are out there trying to BS there way into being esteemed and subtly worshiped in the body of Christ? My advise for you all, if you are out there reading this. If you come here on Grease Spot Cafe and try to bambozzle us with BS, you will be exposed. Your exposure may be right away or we may be in a generous mood and let you post your propaganda for a while just to check you out a bit more. However, if you come her with bad fruit similar to what we experienced in TWI you will be exposed. This is nothing personal mind you. And in exposing you we are actually trying to help you to become more Christ like. 
Oh and I almost forget.
God Bless you.
We love you.
You are the best. (Or at least we want you to be.)
And Gracie I am sorry that Estimated picked up a few bad habits while he was in CES. But some of us can not in good conscience let this charade go on and on here.
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T-Bone
Great work Word Wolf and Mark S! Sometimes I see people coming out of TWI or some offshoot – and it's striking the similarities I see in the way they relate to people. They're still operating on the interpersonal dynamics that are prone to self-deception and manipulation – whether they realize it or not. Well…that line of BS may fly in their group but they're putting a big "Kick Me" sign on their back if they think it's gonna fly on a website where we've all been burned by those shenanigans…And if they really have good intentions and/or a desire to get their head out of their A.S.S. [Absorbed Stupefying Shenanigans] perhaps they won't take the "confrontation" so personally. Speaking for myself – I don't view them as my spiritual enemy. For lack of a better analogy – I see it as their "operating system" [their interpersonal skills] being infected with a virus. The virus being the self-deceiving and manipulative social skills we adopted while in TWI.
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therebutforgrace
T-bone...you wrote, The virus being the self-deceiving and manipulative social skills we adopted while in TWI.
That’s a great statement...and could help lots of folks.
Could you expound? Maybe list some of those social skills...with examples?
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T-Bone
Well, I'm certainly no expert on this stuff – but I'll say a few things since you asked. I think in some ways a dysfunctional "skill" can have a double-edge effect in that it does harm to both the one functioning this way [self-deception] as well as the one they're interacting with [they're being manipulated]. And for what it's worth – this is coming from my two-bit Christian perspective after my TWI experience. Not saying this is all right…just saying this is how I see things working. Can't cover it all – I'll just hit a few of the big ones.
Rationalization: A tendency to reason around the moral standards of Scripture assuming good intentions or a good heart will make up for any poor judgment on my part. It is elevating my heart [which Scripture says can be deceitful] to a position of supreme authority. I saw it in John Lynn's letter and in Estimated Prophet's posts – the way they assume having good intentions, a good heart, a heart for God's people will somehow translate into everything working out for the best. It's an assumption that God would honor that type of thinking – instead of me having to God's moral standards – why…He's nice enough to accommodate my shortcomings. I think many times this way of thinking is a lazy man's way to appease a guilty conscience or settle for a band aide on the boo boo. Instead of taking the time to commune with God AND my offended brother and resolve it the biblical way – I take a short cut – "Oh, you know my heart…now where's that love of God and forgiveness." A good case to study is the blameshifting Adam did after he sinned. He never saw that it was his fault.
Spiritualization: Man, this is a scary one! It was no joke in post # 444 – Prophet Foxworthy saying, "If you think the devil is on the attack every time followers start arguing amongst themselves – you might be a chip off the old cult." People start seeing devil spirits behind every tree and spiders up the noses of their opponents. I remember in the craziness right after Geer's Patriarch – people would say "The integrity of the Word's at stake!" rather than talk about anything specific that should be addressed…I don't buy that personal prophecy stuff. People sacrifice thinking skills and their decision-making ability for the sake of chasing after a feeling, nailing down that "first thought" . What if those aren't spiders but boogers with legs? Reason is on vacation - feelings are running the show.
Delusions of Grandeur and Reverence of Leadership: These two kinda go hand in hand. I saw this when in TWI as well as on this thread. I thought I was involved in the only group that really matters –that's doing the best job for God – and the people that appeared to have totally sold out to that cause were deemed the most important in my book. My "ministry" takes on the proportions of the very church of Christ – it's all blended together in one big hodge podge of self-centeredness. People go ga-ga over gift ministries and titles. Arrogance reigns supreme.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Those were very good explanations T-Bone. Very good work bro.
And I was just thinking along the same lines as T-Bone, although perhaps not as eloquently. Think of all the pressure that must come to a MOG or junior MOG's mind when they think they always have to be right and spiritual all the time. It seems to leave no real time for inner reflection so that they can admit they are wrong at least once in a while and thereby begin to experience some genuine mental and spiritual growth. Instead there is always an excuse and the thought that since I am the MOG I must always be right. Certainly pride and arrogance are involved. Secondarily, down right fear that if one ever admits to making a mistake there ministry may come crashing down like a card game of 52 pick-up. Yet the reality is just the opposite. If one can admit fault perhaps others can help them through their crisis of faith. And certainly God through Christ can go to work internally to help get people back on track. And whatever happened to the scripture saying to esteem others more highly than yourself?
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therebutforgrace
Hm-mm-mm......guess I’m asleep at the keys....
When I read EP’s post (not knowing who he is), I didn’t feel insulted and it didn’t occur to me he was trying to BS his way into being esteemed and subtly worshiped.
May I start with the first thing about not posting anymore?
Gulp. Remember, I’m a newbie...as I suppose is EP... so....I didn’t know, WW, that there even was a Standard Internet Procedure...so I might have broken several myself.
And.....now I’m wondering if I should fear the day when I don’t post as often as I do now. I won’t be able to. I won’t feel the need to. Who knows? I’m not there yet. But when that day comes it won’t mean anything other than whatever my reason was.
Secondly.....we don’t know EP (Or anyone else who is anonymous, for that matter.)
(I only EP is not MG and he left CES 2+ years ago.)
That might have been his last post because he’s on an iron lung and his family doesn’t have the money to pay the internet connection fee any longer.... or because he's emptying his savings account to fly to Guatemala for a last ditch cancer treatment...
Really.
I learned long ago not to jump to conclusions based on my life’s experiences. Like Bumpy (on the ‘CES is in a Mess’ thread)....He’s in Africa. When he posted that, I realized I had assumed (and you know what that makes me) that all of us were typing from comfortable homes in America, as I am. No.....Bumpy has no doubt had to see and deal with things I will never see or deal with. I am so often humbled into asking God for forgiveness for my arrogance.....AGAIN. It is the sin that sooooo easily besets me.
Oh well...I'm just tossing in my two cents to say that it also didn’t occur to me to think EP was dumping me by saying this might be his last post. I just assumed his departure was his being practical for his own life.
============
WordWolf, I have yet to look up Bumpy’s Senegal, and now I have to look up anomalous!
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Ham, you quoted EP: Our enemy is not John Lynn It is not Mark Graeser. It is not Victor Paul Wierwille
Then you wrote, Really? These jokers have MADE themselves "the enemy".
if EP believes Eph 6:12 applies to him, then isn’t GSC the place he can state it without being slapped? You and I don’t have to agree with him...although I do and in this case, the CES BOD has acted like my enemy.....(I’ve probably been on the receiving end of more of their evil than non-CES posters).....but my God tells me that even though they have acted like my enemy, they are not who I’m wrestling against and I choose to believe Him. So.....maybe that's why that’s all I thought EP was saying there.
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Rascal, that’s terrible, and I see how sheltered a life I lead to be surprised by it. I might seriously not buy Fritos again unless you say they’ve hanged management since then.
( lol..... ! ......I meant “changed management”, :D but think I’ll leave that typo!)
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Pond, great point to see that we at least give God equal time as satan... I stand reproved myself today. Thank you.
Knowing the CES folks for years, I don’t see them as ‘front line in satan’s arena’, but they did without question spread his evil too much in some areas for too long....(as had I when I began to wake up to it)
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T-bone, thank you! I do think it will help. More, please, anytime you like.
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Mark, You wrote.......Let's pray that the CES leaders get a realization of what their words and actions have caused and how they have not always educated or shown Christ's love to others. In fact, that they have sometimes been destructive to others faith. If we are in grave error and don't really know about it, how are we going to grow up into Him, who is the head of the body, the Lord Jesus Christ?
Amen!
And praise God some of them are beginning to learn of those errors.....
......largely thanks to all of you GSers!
You are wonderful!
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Tom Strange
in all fairness to the estimated prophet, he/she may have gotten the "parroted" thing from my post (#440, following his/her initial post #439) where I did suggest that he/she was not using his/her brain for original thought... (which I still am inclined to believe BTW)... :)
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Ham
I would agree that that is indeed what he thought.. but I can't give the devil that much glory.
People are people. Anger enough of them with enough arrogance, strife, bitterness, false prophecies, manipulation- and then blame the devil to get the heat off - well, it doesn't work with a lot of people any more.
I think it's even worse- they'd go back to business as usual if they could. J.L.'s letter called for some kind of christian unity by tapping back in his "root" because he thinks they have the best PACKAGE anywhere. "Making potshots" (rational and often LOVING comments) and "I told you so" not being an option.
The devil "wildcard" doesn't fit here, in my opinion.. they just aren't THAT important.
The old cathedrals had awful sculptures of different kinds of devils and gargoyles on the outside, some historians think to frighten the people with visions of what waited for them on the outside of the church, if they didn't obey, if they didn't tow the line..
I think that is the same tactic here.
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Mark Sanguinetti
There is a very fundamental and important point in all this. We are all equals. With regard to these discussions no one here is greater than the other. In contrast, when a person comes here and in his first post announces that John Lynn is an apostle and then names himself as a prophet, immediately the red flags should and do come up. And it is not that I don't believe that we all have our gifts and functions in the body of Christ because I do. However, let's show our gifts by the fruit that we bear rather than by a promotional campaign.
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pond
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Estimated Prophet
Peace
There-But- For Grace encouraged me to come back and learn what there is to be learned, and so I have.
Please forgive me for disconnecting, I simply don't have the time to be involved in these discussions. Grace decided to reconnect with me by P.M.ing me, and I really appreciate her love.
I have a a very good friend who warned me to stay away for my own good, and he was being wise. He knew it would hurt my heart. He was right.
Even though I was prepared for the reponse I still lost a good nights sleep sorting through it all,
and yes, I blame the wicked one for that.
I think will skip this dance.
I'm not going to go back and forth in doubtful disputations.
I can see who is orchestrating the dance and I don't like it.
That does not mean that I don't appreciate the genuine , godly elements of many posts.
I just see the same passion for Christ that oversteps its' bounds sometimes,
like has happened with the leadership of S&T, and misguidedly missed the mark.
I understand.
Will you forgive me if I have offended you in any way.
I am not alone in claiming that I have been very blessed with the teachings and fellowship opportunities provided by S&T over the years.
Why should that bother some of you?
After reading twenty something pages of attacking the integrity of my brothers in Christ and friends in the Faith I was compelled to speak up for them. They are really not as bad as this thread is making them out to be.
Perhaps thier sins and my sins seem to justify the need for open evil speaking,
but that is a sin too.
And for the record.
Evil influences do not excuse any of us for the wrong choices we make.
When I directed our attention to the spiritual realm it was to get to the root of the problem.
Also,
The name Estimated Prophet implies that I recognize my attempts to speak for Christ generally involves a degree of speculation. None of what I have written is what In would call "prophetic."
I also recognize that my affinity for the Grateful Dead is not likely to make a good impression on any one, but it does express a side of me I think you need to see. That Rock and Roll band has generated a culture of people (Cult?) which is another world unto itself.
It's impression on my soul cannot be denied regardless of all the Uncle Harry days I've celebrated.
but I digress...
Jesus Christ came to save sinners and reconcile us back to the Father.
He is able to purify us to be zealous of good works.
That is a process done in the goodness of God, in His unconditional Love,
and in the light of His Truth.
Our cooperation speeds up the process.
IJohn 1:1 addresses Christians and the sin factor in a very wonderful way.
My friend who warned me to stay away, who was wanting to protect my heart,
is someone who didn't speak to me for a good twelve years.
Our local leader had decided to rebuke me sharply before the whole church that my sin
(which I had openly owned up to for the purpose of getting right with God)
might be made known.
And then my closest friends wouldn't talk to me or my family any more.
Those wounds are healed, but most of those friendships are lost.
Why?
Was that process really necessary?
I can only speak what I have seen and heard.
I determined long ago that if my critics are right
and I am indeed bound for hell and deserve to be marked and avoided...
then I will point to Christ Jesus every step of the way
because I know he is our only hope for salvation.
That is why the break down in the CES pains me so much and weighs heavy on my heart.
Five years ago Mark and Dan were in town for a Time of Recociliation.
Now they will be opposing one another in a court of law.
How does that happen?
I have thought long and hard about it
and have to say the root cause is spiritual in nature
and it ain't holy spirit.
It's not my brothers in Christ who have destroyed relationships and such.
It is the same thief Jesus warned about in John 10:10.
and even if I sound paranoid,
it doesn't change the truth of God's Word.
Shall I defend the apostleship of John Lynn?
Shall I speak as a fool?
You can't deny that he has devoted his life to traveling the world,
teaching the bible,
and maintaining relationships with all the churches he has been called to minister to,
to the best of his ablity.
I am not the only one who has heard him teach
and found the Truth hit my heart like blasts of heat lightening.
I love those times.
In his sphere of influence his life has been on display,
and perhaps he has outdone the Apostle Paul
and become the "chiefest of all sinners"
The gifts and Callings of God are still without repentance.
God Bless Him !
I've had some very strong arguments with him, but he has never slammed the door in my face.
Jesus Christ is not ashamed to call him "Brother",
why should we?
And you who consider yourselves strong in the faith...
receive not them who are weak
unto doubtful disputations...
but receive one another
even as Christ Jesus has received you
(not imputing your tresspasses but cleansing you with his blood)
unto the glory of God.
Is that so hard to see and do?
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TrustAndObey
Estimated one..
I think you misjudge what others are doing.. Are they denying Lynn or any in S&F of being of the brethren? No.. But what they are doing is blowing the horn and letting the church know there is a problem, and it is because they have refused to listen to one, and to a small group that have confronted them over and over. They need to be called out for what they have done and be held accountable to the entire church.. That's all..
No one is casting them out of the fellowship of saints, or out of the church body which is US, everyone, all those who procalim Jesus as their LORD!
However, their "leadership" abilities is definitely in question when they perform as they have shown to the past months and years.. It's a continuing thing my friend they they have shown themselves incapable of acting godly in such a position and as such should take a step back.
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pond
You sound heart broken.
you know what? I also would love to say Im part of something that has the truth that has Gods true words to us, that has fine up-standing men willing to heed the Lords call and help us learn what the scriptures tell us.
but I have to admit my teacher is Christ alone.
and this leaves people pleasing and friendships and relationshps in a position of lesser than.
and it can hurt someone with a heart towards giving love back as we have received from the Lord.
you so concerned with how we treat one another forget they are the ones devouring one another?
they are the ones fighting in a fleshy relm of who is who and who God is telling who to?
they are not innocent, stop protecting a dream of a place where your leader is divine.
He is divine and His name is Jesus christ . theworld is not our home and to be the protector of all puts you in the very same areana that is what started their own fighting and division and true hate towards one another.
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Ham
Yeah, "call me". "now... what can 'I' do for you, Ham?"
Just what I need.. another session to learn proper posturing before the MOG..
"end of 'discussion', read my book."
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therebutforgrace
Amen to Trust and Obey...and to you, EP.
All of us have a carnal nature and if we don't choose to reckon it dead it remains alive and well and kicking! So we rant or rave or complain or murmur or..... and sometimes it's here on GS where it stays forever in print!!
Sometimes we don't separate the sin from the sinner...that's one of the reasons we needed a Savior. He showed us how. When we choose to put on the mind of Christ we do better than when we don't.
I repeat, sadly, that CES leadership has very much hurt my friends and family. And the END to their hurting anyone will begin to come by each of them waking up to the truth of how they have chosen to live in order to hurt people. Unfortunately, they did not hear people in private...and so it was taken public.
"Hope deferred makes the heart sick." Some people, who had hoped and assumed that the CES guys' good intentions were being lived out, seem to hurt all over again as much as they did when past church leadership (of any ilk) were found to be hurting people.....and we come full circle to ....ranting and raving, or at least not having on the mind of Christ, here at GS or in our thought life throughout the day.
But!!
God saves to the uttermost. Us...them...everyone.....
pond, let's see if this GS public wake-up call changes things before we keep speaking in the present tense about their devouring each other or other people. GSers might not see it without checking with some CESers...but Jesus will see it wherever it occurs.
Blips of humility have already shown up on the CES radar screen and apologies are being made person-to-person. It has to have a beginning. Let's keep them in prayer and believe that God can take this mess and turn it into many miracles.
Humility is always the beginning.
For me...for CES...for the world Christ died for.
Thank you GreaseSpots for helping to bring this about! God is thrilled with you!
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therebutforgrace
Ham,
As I said in an earlier post somewhere, there will come a time when I can no longer spend this much time at GS. And I fully intend to give my name and phone number and email address and say just about what JL said...I can't keep talking to everyone, but it's not personal. It's just not going to be available in my life for a while.
I in no way feel JL slammed the door in my face with his invitation to call or email him. I haven't taken him up on it yet, but it's open to me.
So will you type on for weeks after my life calls for me to be somewhere else more often than GS and say that I too slammed the door in your face? If so, please let me apologize ahead of time. I did in no way whatsoever mean to do so.
As for 'read my book', I don't think JL will be writing that given some time....his was a habitual (as we all know!) reaction there. And as for needing courage to talk to him in person, he is also beginning to see where he can apologize for that.
I am very grateful for those friends/family who gave me time when I screwed up my life. I wouldn't be typing to you today had they not done so. Maybe that's why I can give these guys some time (albeit keeping their feet tied to the holy spirit fire, as my friends and family did to mine!!)
Can we all agree that we want them to wake up and change?
Can we all hope if not pray for that end?
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Ham
Yeah we can.. but "here's what I believe, and you should too, I won't dialog" isn't very encouraging.
You can't say he hasn't had the time..
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therebutforgrace
he didn't say he wouldn't dialog.....he said he wouldn't dialog in one manner you want him to.
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pond
Excuse me.
Im done finding an excuse for theses guys.
I do not know why you feel you need to defend their behavours and attitudes.
Is it because you believe they are somehow a special people beyond what others may be called?
Ive been in this my enitre life, and you what? NO MORE!
be in denial make an excuse use a bible verse to justify their actions and call yourself a better christ follower all you want to.
it just isnt working for me anymore.
this attitude is
exactly why they have been able to finance what they have done to hurt people for many DECADES.
because now you to can be part of the super race of those God still considers better and more elect than the rest!!
because you can be more noble? I think not try more in denial and more willing to compromise truly what God calls good and right because you recognize their flesh in some way.
truth or tradition is the name of the web site
just what part of this are you clinging to NOW???
truth or the tradition that these guys can pull anything they chose to and somhow in our tradition of folowing their words we can twist and turn the facts and the truth to fill our tradition once again.
what a lie from hell what a total trip of denial to justify your own tradition you refuse to let go of.
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dmiller
I added the bold.
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pond
sounds like a reasonable thing , pffff
unless you count the many who he talks at that he thinks could give him and his group some cash.
no names and addresses or personal issues (to use against them in case of confrontation) needed them hmmm?
what a hypocrit.
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Ham
TherebutforGrace, True, he refuses to dialog in a manner I would want, but that would make us equals.
I think he's been trained by the "best".
I've had REAL issues with some of these guys and called.. one on one.. "now, what can *I* (or "we")
do for you ham.. "
Their words drip like honey, their kind and beneficient "mogness" being without dispute..
Inside of ten minutes, I couldn't figure out what I called them about.. so much runaround, being subjected to every motivational technique known to the mind of man..
I got a nice warm, fuzzy feeling.. but it didn't solve anything.
The finger went back to ME. "Well, why do YOU have such a problem with forgiveness.."
"see, it isn't all as bad as you thought.."
"now, anything else *I* can do for you?"
No thanks.. I may have my faults, but I'm not the one who has a failing "ministry" and can't figure out why.
I don't think JL has a clue. It is far easier to just blame it on the devil.. I think he really believes what he says.
No potshots here, but JL's track record doesn't anywhere near qualify him for me to call him up for his advice.
Yeah.. it's my opinion, but I think he's saying "I'll dialog with those who CARE about (and I read it as RESPECT and ADORE) ME".
One guy here thinks JL is an apostle, convinced of it. No joke- I'm not being sarcastic here about it.. what convinced the guy? The nice warm, fuzzy feeling he got? The "accuracy" of the teachings? The "package"? The FEW "results" he could have found himself, by going to a reputable counsellor?
Generally I'm a happy go lucky type of a person, but that kinda chafes me..
I think they've gone the path of TWI in much of this.. some people laud vp's name to the sky, over twenty years after he's gone..
I think JL ought to read this stuff, and take an honest look at what his "package" is doing to people.
The guy thinks he's a prophet of sorts, and defends JL as an APOSTLE..
sheesh. How many more are there like that?
No wonder he won't debate in a manner that, yes, *I* would prefer..
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Ham
It reminds me of the old Firesign Theater "we're all bozos on the bus".. and the guy "broke" the president by asking the "wrong" questions..
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dmiller
Pond -- I'm not sure what you're getting at, so I'll not guess.
(Don't want to add my *PI* into the mix).
My point was merely to show that he will talk with folks.
Giving out a phone number (as well as an e-mail address),
kinda gives me the impression that he's not afraid to talk.
Reminds me of back when (in the Doctrinal section),
Alan was following Templelady around, *dissing* Mormonism,
and accusing her of hiding behind an anonymous screen name.
She responded by posting her real name and address,
under her screen name, which shows up in every post she makes.
I guess she's not willing to talk to folks about Mormonism either, eh?
(PS --- Mr. H. --- You made a coupla good points in your post after Pond's there.)
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