"I am assuming that many believers who read this are either very good friends of mine or people who know quite a bit about me and my involvement in this wonderful ministry"
Right there, I don't buy it. Given the way this was written, and particlularly the ending, I'm betting John knew that in all likelihood this letter was going to end up here ag the cafe. He is being manuplative by saying otherwise.
"I initially heard that the main point of contention was that four of the other five Board members (John, Gary, Karen, and Dan) had asked Mark to step down from his presidential responsibilities for six months, move his office to his home, and, while still being paid the same salary, work on some very serious personal matters that, in their opinion, had, and still were, greatly hampering his ability to perform the required duties of president. He was asked to focus on writing the administrations book and the clergy ordination education curriculum. Mark declined to step down, however, and Tom stood with him in that decision."
First, I would say the offer to step down with pay was certainly a generous one. I can't help but wonder how many of those who give money to this organization think that it is best for their money to be spent paying a salary to someone who was not able to perform his job duties.
I would then wonder what kind of a set up they have for this organization. I sit on a board. If the majority of the board votes the school leader out, the school leader is out. It doesn't matter if there is one board member who objects. Neither the school leader, nor an individual board member, has the power to override the majority.
"Some have felt she is “running the ministry” via her prophecies, Many times I have vehemently (and, I firmly believe, rightly) defended her."
This would include, apparently, defending her phrophecies regarding his wife. That right there would make me question is judgment then and now.
"That being said, I have of late been surprised to learn that the perception of her negative influence is far more pervasive than I realized, and, having been made aware of numerous incidents in which she has exerted undue and harmful influence, I no longer believe that this perception is groundless."
What made him change his mind on this? He supported Karen when she attacked his own wife, and now he changes his mind? I would appear, to this outsider looking in, that he changes his mind because of public pressure, not God. Again leaves me wondering if this isn't simply more manipulation, as opposed to any kind of Godly sorrow or insight.
it has now become a weakness, as many will testify that she has been meddling in things she shouldn’t
Like his marriage? Again, leaves one to wonder how sincere his is, given the way he supported her when she meddled there.
alleged prophetic words from the Lord that were very derogatory to John and Jenivee, Dan, and Gary and Karen T., and which did not line up with the facts as I see them.
Interesting. I wonder who else in CES is allowed to disagree with a prophesy if they can state it doesn't line up with the "facts as I see them." Seems to me, that at least one person lost her spouse for stating the prophesies did not like up with the facts as she saw them.
All of us together are what makes STF what it is. [Context would make it appear that the "all of us together" is the board, president, leadership]
Makes me wonder where God is in this? Where all those who contribut financially, physically, spiritually are?
magnify our flaws above the good we are doing for people.
No amount of good justifies the damage that appears to have been done here. It seems to me, the implication is that if I start robbing banks, possibly injuring a few bystanders in the process, it is okay as long as I give the stolen money to the poor.
"Third, get close enough to the nucleus of STF leadership to see their hearts before you impugn them. "
Having read the "prophesies", I don't want to see any further into the hearts of those who wrote them or supported them. That is darkness, through and through - there was not an ounce of love in that.
"the reason I remain totally committed to Spirit and Truth Fellowship International is because I can find no one else with the “package” we have to offer,"
Yeah, that would pretty much be the exact same line TWI sold us too. You learned well, grasshopper.
John Lynn didn't post it on GS, Jeff USAF did, so why would we even expect John L. to reply through this forum? And why would you say he was pontificating if he isn't even the one to post?
I'm glad to see him write something and state a position.
I agree with Galen, nice to see his heart.
Joe
Really??? You can't honestly tell me that you don't believe the last portion of the "letter" wasn't addressed to the viewers of this forum... can you?
Go back and read the last portion (the p.s.)... that's to the folks who are going to read it HERE. Where else to you think it's going to be posted on the internet?
Fourth, take an honest look at what we teach from the Word about whatever subjects are pertinent to this matter, like prophecy. Prophecy is prophecy, and to criticize “personal prophecy” as unbiblical, in and of itself, is contrary to Scripture. We have a book on Prophecy that deals with this subject in depth from the Word, which you can get from www.stfonline.org.
JAL doesn't mention that the authenticity-problem afflicting the “prophetic” practices in which CES/STFI practitioners have apparently widely been involved is a qualifier for death-by-stoning under the Mosaic covenant's judicial terms (see "Disclaimer").
A sect given to prophalying (falsely prophesying) isn't going to cure its ills merely by rejecting flagrantly self-serving and/or nasty portions of its adherents' prophalying, and doing a group hug.
Disclaimer: Don’t worry. I’m an armchair apologete -- not a theonomist.
To anyone who accepts and practices this doctrine:
If you ever see me show up to church wearing a shirt, hat or a sign that says "Please take advantage of me: Abuse me at will," then and ONLY then should you feel free to subject me to one of your personal prophecies. Because Personal Prophecy, as explained repeatedly and CERTAINLY as practiced, is the most blatant invitation to personal abuse and manipulation I have ever seen.
Already on this board I can document one time when an individual, referring to a prophecy he/she delivered, told someone else that they were arguing with God if they disagreed with him/her. The person who did this is someone I respect, and the conversation was none of my business so I didn't say anything. But how satisfying it must be to have a disagreement with someone and be able to say, "well, you're not disagreeing with me: you're disagreeing with the God who showed me that vision of you."
That's not dialogue: it's a dissent squelcher.
Personal prophecy has NO WHERE TO GO BUT DOWN.
It's vain imagination plus flashy title.
This needs repeating.
And..........having two close friends who attend CES fellowships/functions, why is it that JAL keeps pushing the Momentus/Deliverance sessions on them? From the sounds of it, Momentus opens one up to loads of spiritual blackmail and, possibly, spousal contentions.......needing to run a gauntlet of public exposure for past sins and/or very personal thoughts.
Sure, there is some "prophesy records" in the scriptures.......but that, in no way, justifies dark ramblings of religious ritual. How can CES leadership buy into this voodoo verbaige????
You wrote.....Either JAL wrote this with the express purpose of seeing it appear here, or he didn't.
I was once taught never to say there are only 2 options to something...can't say as I heeded the advice all my life, but it does apply here.
JAL's letter said he learned about the BOD fight in September, spent I guess Sept, Oct and Nov looking into it and writing his thoughts....and then on Dec-something 9? he read it to MG.
BUT....CC didn't post "The Elizabeth Papers" on GSC until Dec 16.
So he wrote it, it appears, with the express purpose of trying to get his friend to see the error of his ways and change (as many of us are trying to do with the whole BOD!).
But...since GS came into play on Dec 16, when he finally sent it out...on 12-26.....he added a P.S. to us.
There is much amiss here already...we don't have to make up more.
You wrote....Plus, it says that the people who were HARMED over the past 20 years are an acceptable consequence for defending 'the ministry', since this thing seems to ONLY have positive results on people.
Sadly, you are correct that the fruit shows they have lived this way......yet the CES leaders I know don't actually think that 'hurt people are acceptable consequences' for anything. That's my point. They haven't "gotten" it yet. Was it OODF or Abigail who said she was so pleased she could read the E Papers and see them clearly.....since she's been so far away from the cult mentality for so long? Many of us have written that we are amazed we ever believed this or participated in that....but we did. Well, these guys still do. These guys have not been away from the cult mentality yet at all. OK, so they said they had, but we can see the fruit showing they haven't. So.....we can attack or we can speak up here (some of them are reading it) and we can pray I'm glad someone prayed for me. I'd had enough attacking for several lifetimes.
With God nothing is impossible. So I shall continue to pray that all of these people get back to being with Him.
A brief p.s. to critics of Spirit & Truth Fellowship:
GREASESPOT
Given the way that documents such as this somehow wind up on the Internet, GREASESPOT let me say a few things to our detractors who will use this current situation in STF to say “I told you so,” take potshots at us, and magnify our flaws above the good we are doing for people. First, God bless you, I love you.
First of all, I believe several people on this thread GREASESPOT PEOPLE stated that they were not here to take potshots at anyone, or to say I told you so. The main concern that I see here is "what about the people" John?? What about the people that this doctrinal error has affected?? Are they expendable, so that the ministry may live? Where have I heard that before? Second of all, you don't even know me, so how can you know if you love me or not. Spare me the TV minister crap.....
Second, be sure you know enough truth about the issues to make a rational judgment.
I know plenty about the issues. It's the same issues that brought the BOD down in TWI. As much as you want to think you are different, your actions in the past few months apparently are quite similar to the tactics of TWI, especially the tactics used in the past few years.
Third, get close enough to the nucleus of STF leadership to see their hearts before you impugn them.
Sorry, I don't want to go to church with you.
Fourth, take an honest look at what we teach from the Word about whatever subjects are pertinent to this matter, like prophecy. Prophecy is prophecy, and to criticize “personal prophecy” as unbiblical, in and of itself, is contrary to Scripture. We have a book on Prophecy that deals with this subject in depth from the Word, which you can get from www.stfonline.org.
I didn't think that you would have the nerve to turn this into a commercial for a book. This was supposed to be a letter to clear the air, set it all out on the table, show your stand....but I am sorry, this is nothing more than a letter that you think will appease the questions of the starry-eyed masses. I wish that you could hear it in the original..........
In that vein, the reason I remain totally committed to Spirit and Truth Fellowship International is because I can find no one else with the “package” we have to offer, and I know the true heart with which we present it, as well as the liberating impact it has had on people around the world during the past 20 years.
Would this be a different package than "the PFAL series". So no one else has the "package" to offer and this is what God inspires..........a "package" to help us get to him.........I thought the Jesus Christ was the whole "package". Yep, I don't know anyone who has the same "truth" that we offer..........(that sounds familiar) - oh but that's right, you are not like TWI at all.
You will have to judge for yourself whether what we teach is sound doctrine, and whether we practice it in love. But you cannot do that from afar. I encourage you to dig into our work,
Sorry, I do not want to go to church with you. That is established.
and I exhort you to “stay tuned” and see if the hand of God is on us. Watch and see where He takes this ministry in the days ahead. I do hope that among the millions whose lives we hope to touch, we will be able to bless you, the only you God has.
You sound just like a salesman for Jesus, "hey just stay tuned, and you too can have the abundant life ". Just send in $39.95 plus shipping and handling, and you too can live the lifestyle that I do. But wait, that's not all, with this special offer you too can own my lastest book, "The Perils of Prophecy for Anyone Else But Me", for only $9.95, and if you accept this one time offer, we will throw in a picture of the current CES Board members, for your spiritual enrichment and enjoyment. But wait, that's not all, for a limited time only, you too can be prophecied over by our own Karen Anne, whom I love and respect more than my own wife........But wait, theres more.........
As to what is flying around cyberspace about me and my personal life, my email is jalces@aol.com and my home phone is 317-849-5707. If you know me and care about me, I’ll be glad to communicate with you. I will not, however, dialogue with anonymous people who lack the love and courage to identify themselves in interacting with me.
As someone said before me, yeah this way I am control of the conversation....John, I have a personal prophecy for you:
Take heed, you have become exactly like TWI, take heed, lest you end up working at UPS........
Wow. Weird. I need a better context to put this letter in.
In that vein, I should say that I have heard that there are many prophetic words about this situation that have come in from various people during the past seven months, one group of which is obviously false, or at least off track, because they are pretty much the opposite of the words in the other group.
I think this statement speaks loudly about the entire problem I perceive with "personal prophecy" the way CES handles it and the way John (and maybe all involved) think. I guess I don't understand the definition of true and false, as they're applying it.
What does 'at least off track" mean?
The falseness of theone group seems to be based on their disagreement with the second "other" group. Because there's more than one opinion being held forth - at least two? So how does anyone in CES put any trust in their 'personal prophecy'? If there's that much balderdash being slung, with what I'm sure is conviction.
There's a huge gap between "obviously false" and "or at least off track".
Stripped down it just sounds like two sides, one wrong because they disagree with the other. I think the letter goes nowhere in establishing what is right or wrong, true of false, and why John holds that opinion. Shoot, I'm weeping and wringing my hands right now and all I did is read the letter. I can't imagine how distraught John must feel - he wrote it!
While JAL likes to point out how much he follows some proverbs I am reminded of a couple of my favorites, like Proverbs 3:5 & 6. I see a whole lot of JAL leaning to his own understanding and a whole lot of analyze and no indication God was involved in this whole decision making process.
Just because you wrote a book doesn't make the subject shut, cut and dry right. If you bother to look you can see that the whole personal prophecy relies to heavily upon the desires of the one speaking. KAG liked JAL so he received the good words, E was out of grace with KAG so she heard the wrath of God stuff.
So any of you great STFI supporters care to prove the doctrine is true? I have seen to much evil fruit for it to convince me to even look at a book, let alone pay any of my hard earned money to support it.
Once again the Saints are answered with "Buy This Book"
And Mr Lynn; you haven't done a single thing to make me want to let you know who I really am!
My God people, get a life. Get as far away from this thing as you can. Take what I was told and try this. Get away from any group for six months and you won't know yourself.
The blasting on John is rather incredible. I don't know what to say. I've bought some of their tapes and books and liked them all. I have only recently heard of "personal prophecy" and I saw someone victimized by that...not as CES but at a church fellowship. Personal prophecy is possible, but unlikely in most cases. Note the example of the man who confronted paul for not listening to the Holy Spirit.
Momentus didn't sound good to me, a major reason I kept my distance from CES in those years.
But i have always liked John A. Lynn and trusted him. I also have spoken to John Schoenheit and had good conversations with him. I completely trust him. This was back in the mid to late 80s. I have emailed Mark Graeser and remember he was excited about CES/STF starting a Bible College. I still agree with that.
I admit not knowing inside information. I agree the BOD of the organization should be above division among themselves.
I wish I could be more enlightened, honestly, about what is so bad about these people. I wish them all the best in the resolution of their situation.
Interesting that NOWHERE does he stand up for Elizabeth, not then, and still not now. Sad, John Lynn, very sad, spineless, and gutless.
Yet you are still on your 'Want to find out more, buy my book' spiel. Like I said, what a great sales pitch. ..... And this is the best your god expects you to do?? Pathetic!
"my heart is weeping ....." at this I'd like to give him the ol' Bugs Bunny routine:
The blasting on John is rather incredible. I don't know what to say. I've bought some of their tapes and books and liked them all. I have only recently heard of "personal prophecy" and I saw someone victimized by that...not as CES but at a church fellowship. Personal prophecy is possible, but unlikely in most cases. Note the example of the man who confronted paul for not listening to the Holy Spirit.
I admit not knowing inside information. I agree the BOD of the organization should be above division among themselves.
I wish I could be more enlightened, honestly, about what is so bad about these people. I wish them all the best in the resolution of their situation.
Eagle
Read the threads, Eagle. I would recommend you start with "The Facts" and read the "personal prophesies" there then Elizabeth's letter. You might have a better understanding of where people are coming from.
Beyond that, I am sure John Lynn is not evil incarnate, or even LCM incarnate. However, CES seems to be facing problems not so different than what TWI has faced. Probably for very similar reasons too.
I dunno. It seems weird to me that many here want to dissect STFI/CES and prove that it is just another consortium of charletons. Now, as weird as the personal prophesy thing seems to me, and definitely never something that I would allow myself or family to be subject to, it seems weird that so many here want to judge the hearts of ALL STFI personel. No doubt there IS some garbage heart mixed in there, but I do believe that the core of this ministry (STFI) was set up to help others, and not just "take their money".
I do believe that this STFI is now a ministry in crisis. But just like with TWI, I believe that CES was started with the benefit of God's people in mind. I hope they can work out their problems and do their best to preach and teach only that which is accurate from God's Word. But, I am of the biblical opinion that this "personal prophesy doctrine" needs to go away for them to achieve the unity that they seek. And, I must say, the "prophecies" from KAG were as spooky and weird as it gets, no doubt about it. It's just that, well, I'm sorry, but it seems like there is a "glee' over all of this stuff here. It's like, the stuuf is so salacious and scandalous (and it is) that it looks like a feeding frenzy is where all can jump on that band wagon and say; "I am not on that wagon! I am on the wagon that is not that wagon!". It just seems to be a different wagon, but still a wagon....
It's just that, well, I'm sorry, but it seems like there is a "glee' over all of this stuff here. It's like, the stuuf is so salacious and scandalous (and it is) that it looks like a feeding frenzy is where all can jump on that band wagon and say; "I am not on that wagon! I am on the wagon that is not that wagon!". It just seems to be a different wagon, but still a wagon....
Well Jonny, I'm not on any wagon... and I don't find this salacious at all and I certainly haven't seen any "glee over all of this stuff"... but we have different eyes. And again, I think it's sad, unfortunate and wrong when anyone is hurt or abused...
As for folks "jumpin" on JAL. Well, what do you expect? He does his "drive-by" posts here every so often while proclaiming he doesn't want to use the internet to communicate... well... what was it he just did? He uses the internet to communicate... he just wants it to be one way communication... for us all to 'bow at his feet and kiss his ring'... AND (IMHO) then steps back so he can say "I don't use it" (setting himself above it all) while at the same time saying that those of us who do were "anonymous people who lack love and courage"...
Yeah... a lot of love there... I've had it with his disingenuous and pious attitude and his total lack of humility... TELL ME THIS, HAS JAL EVER ACTED REPENTANT FOR ANYTHING UNTIL HE WAS CAUGHT? ...exactly... and now he comes out with his letter to Mark G, couched on both ends in smarminess...
I don't see anyone taking any particular glee in CES problems, I see concern for those that have been or could be effected by this bad doctrine they've let creep in... "they" being the board of directors... As for "jumping on JAL"??? well heck yeah! And he deserves it!!! (In my opinion and I'm thinking a few others opinion here as well).
Don't confuse an unwillingness to accept JAL's swill with the posts opposing the actions of the board of CES... they're two different things. No glee in the CES thing and utter contempt at the audacity of JAL to fail to be honest... AGAIN.
And so, offering his personal phone number is not an effort to communicate? I just don't get that. It is an attempt to communicate. And, I see nothing wrong with him wanting to know the names of his accusers. Shoot, we know his name. I rarely offer my personal phone number over the Net. But he did.... :blink:
And Tom, "glee" is the wrong word I spose, but, it's like; "Look! More scandal which we can now get all worked up over! Get self righteous over! And look! JAL has come here, but, he didn't respond the way we want him too! Such scandal!" Which just seems to be "feeding frenzy-ish", where the participants join in because they like it..
And so, offering his personal phone number is not an effort to communicate? I just don't get that. It is an attempt to communicate. And, I see nothing wrong with him wanting to know the names of his accusers. Shoot, we know his name. I rarely offer my personal phone number over the Net. But he did.... :blink:
And Tom, "glee" is the wrong word I spose, but, it's like; "Look! More scandal which we can now get all worked up over! Get self righteous over! And look! JAL has come here, but, he didn't respond the way we want him too! Such scandal!" Which just seems to be "feeding frenzy-ish", where the participants join in because they like it..
Well... I haven't heard of anyone who has called him... Abigail sent him an email, maybe others have... she's gotten no response... it's his whole "attitude" that comes across in "his posts" Jonny... at least that's the way he comes across to me... I could be wrong, but I don't think I am...
I think I'd expect a "feeding frenzy" like reaction. People who post at this board have been in TWI. They have very high/heated emotions when it comes to people being hurt and used by ANY organization.
Did he really answer anything in that "position paper"??? The way I read it was that his position was that there was a problem, then he came to believe that MG and KAG were the problem, he implored MG to step aside, and then he agreed with the majority of the board that MG and KAG were the problem, and one way or another MG and KAG are going away and things will be "all better"...
This problem is a lot bigger than MG and KAG, they're simply ONE manifestation of it... and the board (and JAL) were there all along while this problem (these problems) were creeping in and taking root in CES/STFI... where was their vigilance for God's people and Word then?
Well, at least he did in fact desire to get rid of a very serious problem in the form of MG and KAG. They may not be the root of the problem, but with those kinds of spewings and rantings, I think it was a good place to start. If I am driving toward a cliff in my truck, the first thing I have to do is stop before I go over. And then, once calmed down, would then begin to examine just why I ended up in such a perdicament in the first place. If I'd not stopped my destructive direction, it would then be too late to do any self examination.
Y'know, this whole thing reads like a pizza that's flopped off the back of a truck. In the rain.
There are CES issues, personal issues, marital issues, doctrinal issues, etc. etc. All this stuff, and probably a lot more.
It's crazy, reading about it from this view. Makes no sense and is so far outside of the realm of what I live it's like reading the back-story to Star Wars or something.
Not that I'm perfect or don't have problems and difficulties, nope. But the people I trust and that help me when I need it don't have dreams about spiders crawling out of someone's nose or whatever. That whole thing's just too gross for words and if I'm getting it right, the fact that this bunch has people corroborating all of it with more dreams and prophetic messages is scarey. They probably don't think so, they seem to think directing their lives by someone else's nightmares is normal - in all honesty - why or how could I possibly look to those same people for clarification - they're the ones having and listening to each others dreams and prophecies.
Blind leading the blind isn't some harsh 'spiritual' condemnation. It's a well worn piece of wisdom that fits many of life's situations. It certainly seems to wrap around what I've read here.
...a guy steps down from his position, is replaced by the husband of a wife who gives personal ministerial direction and marriage counselling based on dreams that are ratified by a board made up of suporters, and who later terminates his marriage considering guidance from the wife...who...
Sorry. I'm not gleeful. All org's don't have problems like these. All org's don't entertain dream-prophecy as useful input. Some org's talk, communicate, pray about stuff, consider 'guidance' from their people and act reasonably intelligent, loving and meek.
I have only a limited view into CES. From there, I don't think this kind of thing is normal-run-of-the-mill-everybody-has-a-bad-month stuff. My impression from their history - sooner or later CES would shoot themselves in the foot. My .02 cents. I wish it wasn't so. That's the way it reads to me.
- IMO putting it on GS has value - although it's opening up all kinds of private personal things to the world, most of which is like me, not involved. Doing that and assumes something - that there's a good that will come from it. Trust me, I could have gone a long time without knowing anything about any of this, y'know? I can see some benefits already -
--- those that are involved have a means of letting CES participants outside the immediate circle know more of an 'inside' story on what's going on and their concern.
--- those involved now or from the past have a place to discuss it amongst themselves (with input from anyone else reading of course)
--- a lot of varied and diverse views and opinions, ideas and suggestions, both critical and supportive.
--- venting, and release of tension and pressure through expression.
The last is important. Steam has to go somewhere. It's not enough to tell a pot that's boiling to stop. Action has to be taken to direct that energy or it'll boil over. The average person is, I think, perfectly willing to act honorably. Shutting people out or down makes it hard for them to do that.
This problem is a lot bigger than MG and KAG, they're simply ONE manifestation of it... and the board (and JAL) were there all along while this problem (these problems) were creeping in and taking root in CES/STFI... where was their vigilance for God's people and Word then?
Well said, Tom. Its really not that difficult to sit back and pinpoint some of those problems.
1. If the majority of the board agrees that an individual needs to be removed from a position - especially a high position like President, but has no power to remove that individual, the structure is bad.
2. When new things are taught (such as personal prophesy, Jesus is or isn't God), I can't help but wonder who decides what is on or off "The Word." Who makes sure it is truly accurate? Is there a research team? Does the research team basically consist of the very same people who are the board? [Again, if it does, the structure is bad, because it lacks proper checks and balances.]
3. It seems to me, somewhere along the line, people stopped worshipping God and started worshipping their friends and/or their "prophets".
4. John Lynn talks about disagreeing with some of the prophesies (and good for him for doing so!), but does one have to be a "top gun" in CES in order to be allowed to do so? Who determines what prophesies are truly from God and which are not? What is the process? Where are the checks and balances?
5. Who determines under what circumstances a staff member can be fired? Is there a proper job description and means of evaluating performance? If there isn't, not only is there a lack of proper checks and balances, but depending on the state laws where the employee is working, they could leave themselves open to a lawsuit.
There's a start, and one that doesn't even begin to discuss the soundness, or lack thereof, of their doctrine.
Johnny, I understand where you are coming from - you've a good heart, really. I see this from a different perspective than you, though. When people use God or "His Word" as a weapon to beat up others, when they hide behind it to excuse hurtful words or actions, in my opinion it is a manifestation of their heart.
I'm not saying John Lynn or the others are evil, but there is something wrong there. Maybe it is fear, fear of losing their position within the organization, a lack of trust that people would understand and forgive if the real truth were known, whatever. Maybe it is greed. Maybe one or more of them has simply become delusional. But having spent 10 years under LCM's reign in TWI, it does stir up a lot of emotions in me when I read about this stuff.
Preaching/pastoring/ministering/teaching in God's name is a very serious business (and isn't it unfortuante that is often such a lucrative business, too?). No one should get away with using God to hurt others.
For years there has been a fairly widespread perception among quite a few people involved with STF that Karen Anne has been exerting an undue and negative influence on Mark, and others. Some have felt she is “running the ministry” via her prophecies, Many times I have vehemently (and, I firmly believe, rightly) defended her. Having been integrally involved in every major ministry decision from 1987-2000 and somewhat involved in many others from 2000-2005, I know that she has not “run the ministry.” That being said, I have of late been surprised to learn that the perception of her negative influence is far more pervasive than I realized , and, having been made aware of numerous incidents in which she has exerted undue and harmful influence, I no longer believe that this perception is groundless.
In my opinion, a key factor in all of this is that while God wants to make our weaknesses into strengths, the enemy wants to make our strengths into weaknesses. Karen Anne Graeser has often spoken prophetically into my life and been right on the money, to my great benefit.
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Abigail
"I am assuming that many believers who read this are either very good friends of mine or people who know quite a bit about me and my involvement in this wonderful ministry"
Right there, I don't buy it. Given the way this was written, and particlularly the ending, I'm betting John knew that in all likelihood this letter was going to end up here ag the cafe. He is being manuplative by saying otherwise.
"I initially heard that the main point of contention was that four of the other five Board members (John, Gary, Karen, and Dan) had asked Mark to step down from his presidential responsibilities for six months, move his office to his home, and, while still being paid the same salary, work on some very serious personal matters that, in their opinion, had, and still were, greatly hampering his ability to perform the required duties of president. He was asked to focus on writing the administrations book and the clergy ordination education curriculum. Mark declined to step down, however, and Tom stood with him in that decision."
First, I would say the offer to step down with pay was certainly a generous one. I can't help but wonder how many of those who give money to this organization think that it is best for their money to be spent paying a salary to someone who was not able to perform his job duties.
I would then wonder what kind of a set up they have for this organization. I sit on a board. If the majority of the board votes the school leader out, the school leader is out. It doesn't matter if there is one board member who objects. Neither the school leader, nor an individual board member, has the power to override the majority.
"Some have felt she is “running the ministry” via her prophecies, Many times I have vehemently (and, I firmly believe, rightly) defended her."
This would include, apparently, defending her phrophecies regarding his wife. That right there would make me question is judgment then and now.
"That being said, I have of late been surprised to learn that the perception of her negative influence is far more pervasive than I realized, and, having been made aware of numerous incidents in which she has exerted undue and harmful influence, I no longer believe that this perception is groundless."
What made him change his mind on this? He supported Karen when she attacked his own wife, and now he changes his mind? I would appear, to this outsider looking in, that he changes his mind because of public pressure, not God. Again leaves me wondering if this isn't simply more manipulation, as opposed to any kind of Godly sorrow or insight.
it has now become a weakness, as many will testify that she has been meddling in things she shouldn’t
Like his marriage? Again, leaves one to wonder how sincere his is, given the way he supported her when she meddled there.
alleged prophetic words from the Lord that were very derogatory to John and Jenivee, Dan, and Gary and Karen T., and which did not line up with the facts as I see them.
Interesting. I wonder who else in CES is allowed to disagree with a prophesy if they can state it doesn't line up with the "facts as I see them." Seems to me, that at least one person lost her spouse for stating the prophesies did not like up with the facts as she saw them.
All of us together are what makes STF what it is. [Context would make it appear that the "all of us together" is the board, president, leadership]
Makes me wonder where God is in this? Where all those who contribut financially, physically, spiritually are?
magnify our flaws above the good we are doing for people.
No amount of good justifies the damage that appears to have been done here. It seems to me, the implication is that if I start robbing banks, possibly injuring a few bystanders in the process, it is okay as long as I give the stolen money to the poor.
"Third, get close enough to the nucleus of STF leadership to see their hearts before you impugn them. "
Having read the "prophesies", I don't want to see any further into the hearts of those who wrote them or supported them. That is darkness, through and through - there was not an ounce of love in that.
"the reason I remain totally committed to Spirit and Truth Fellowship International is because I can find no one else with the “package” we have to offer,"
Yeah, that would pretty much be the exact same line TWI sold us too. You learned well, grasshopper.
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Tom Strange
Really??? You can't honestly tell me that you don't believe the last portion of the "letter" wasn't addressed to the viewers of this forum... can you?
Go back and read the last portion (the p.s.)... that's to the folks who are going to read it HERE. Where else to you think it's going to be posted on the internet?
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Cynic
JAL doesn't mention that the authenticity-problem afflicting the “prophetic” practices in which CES/STFI practitioners have apparently widely been involved is a qualifier for death-by-stoning under the Mosaic covenant's judicial terms (see "Disclaimer").
A sect given to prophalying (falsely prophesying) isn't going to cure its ills merely by rejecting flagrantly self-serving and/or nasty portions of its adherents' prophalying, and doing a group hug.
Disclaimer: Don’t worry. I’m an armchair apologete -- not a theonomist.
Mark C. Bowles (“Cynic”)
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skyrider
This needs repeating.
And..........having two close friends who attend CES fellowships/functions, why is it that JAL keeps pushing the Momentus/Deliverance sessions on them? From the sounds of it, Momentus opens one up to loads of spiritual blackmail and, possibly, spousal contentions.......needing to run a gauntlet of public exposure for past sins and/or very personal thoughts.
Sure, there is some "prophesy records" in the scriptures.......but that, in no way, justifies dark ramblings of religious ritual. How can CES leadership buy into this voodoo verbaige????
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therebutforgrace
Hi WW,
You wrote.....Either JAL wrote this with the express purpose of seeing it appear here, or he didn't.
I was once taught never to say there are only 2 options to something...can't say as I heeded the advice all my life, but it does apply here.
JAL's letter said he learned about the BOD fight in September, spent I guess Sept, Oct and Nov looking into it and writing his thoughts....and then on Dec-something 9? he read it to MG.
BUT....CC didn't post "The Elizabeth Papers" on GSC until Dec 16.
So he wrote it, it appears, with the express purpose of trying to get his friend to see the error of his ways and change (as many of us are trying to do with the whole BOD!).
But...since GS came into play on Dec 16, when he finally sent it out...on 12-26.....he added a P.S. to us.
There is much amiss here already...we don't have to make up more.
You wrote....Plus, it says that the people who were HARMED over the past 20 years are an acceptable consequence for defending 'the ministry', since this thing seems to ONLY have positive results on people.
Sadly, you are correct that the fruit shows they have lived this way......yet the CES leaders I know don't actually think that 'hurt people are acceptable consequences' for anything. That's my point. They haven't "gotten" it yet. Was it OODF or Abigail who said she was so pleased she could read the E Papers and see them clearly.....since she's been so far away from the cult mentality for so long? Many of us have written that we are amazed we ever believed this or participated in that....but we did. Well, these guys still do. These guys have not been away from the cult mentality yet at all. OK, so they said they had, but we can see the fruit showing they haven't. So.....we can attack or we can speak up here (some of them are reading it) and we can pray I'm glad someone prayed for me. I'd had enough attacking for several lifetimes.
With God nothing is impossible. So I shall continue to pray that all of these people get back to being with Him.
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outofdafog
A brief p.s. to critics of Spirit & Truth Fellowship:
GREASESPOT
Given the way that documents such as this somehow wind up on the Internet, GREASESPOT let me say a few things to our detractors who will use this current situation in STF to say “I told you so,” take potshots at us, and magnify our flaws above the good we are doing for people. First, God bless you, I love you.
First of all, I believe several people on this thread GREASESPOT PEOPLE stated that they were not here to take potshots at anyone, or to say I told you so. The main concern that I see here is "what about the people" John?? What about the people that this doctrinal error has affected?? Are they expendable, so that the ministry may live? Where have I heard that before? Second of all, you don't even know me, so how can you know if you love me or not. Spare me the TV minister crap.....
Second, be sure you know enough truth about the issues to make a rational judgment.
I know plenty about the issues. It's the same issues that brought the BOD down in TWI. As much as you want to think you are different, your actions in the past few months apparently are quite similar to the tactics of TWI, especially the tactics used in the past few years.
Third, get close enough to the nucleus of STF leadership to see their hearts before you impugn them.
Sorry, I don't want to go to church with you.
Fourth, take an honest look at what we teach from the Word about whatever subjects are pertinent to this matter, like prophecy. Prophecy is prophecy, and to criticize “personal prophecy” as unbiblical, in and of itself, is contrary to Scripture. We have a book on Prophecy that deals with this subject in depth from the Word, which you can get from www.stfonline.org.
I didn't think that you would have the nerve to turn this into a commercial for a book. This was supposed to be a letter to clear the air, set it all out on the table, show your stand....but I am sorry, this is nothing more than a letter that you think will appease the questions of the starry-eyed masses. I wish that you could hear it in the original..........
In that vein, the reason I remain totally committed to Spirit and Truth Fellowship International is because I can find no one else with the “package” we have to offer, and I know the true heart with which we present it, as well as the liberating impact it has had on people around the world during the past 20 years.
Would this be a different package than "the PFAL series". So no one else has the "package" to offer and this is what God inspires..........a "package" to help us get to him.........I thought the Jesus Christ was the whole "package". Yep, I don't know anyone who has the same "truth" that we offer..........(that sounds familiar) - oh but that's right, you are not like TWI at all.
You will have to judge for yourself whether what we teach is sound doctrine, and whether we practice it in love. But you cannot do that from afar. I encourage you to dig into our work,
Sorry, I do not want to go to church with you. That is established.
and I exhort you to “stay tuned” and see if the hand of God is on us. Watch and see where He takes this ministry in the days ahead. I do hope that among the millions whose lives we hope to touch, we will be able to bless you, the only you God has.
You sound just like a salesman for Jesus, "hey just stay tuned, and you too can have the abundant life ". Just send in $39.95 plus shipping and handling, and you too can live the lifestyle that I do. But wait, that's not all, with this special offer you too can own my lastest book, "The Perils of Prophecy for Anyone Else But Me", for only $9.95, and if you accept this one time offer, we will throw in a picture of the current CES Board members, for your spiritual enrichment and enjoyment. But wait, that's not all, for a limited time only, you too can be prophecied over by our own Karen Anne, whom I love and respect more than my own wife........But wait, theres more.........
As to what is flying around cyberspace about me and my personal life, my email is jalces@aol.com and my home phone is 317-849-5707. If you know me and care about me, I’ll be glad to communicate with you. I will not, however, dialogue with anonymous people who lack the love and courage to identify themselves in interacting with me.
As someone said before me, yeah this way I am control of the conversation....John, I have a personal prophecy for you:
Take heed, you have become exactly like TWI, take heed, lest you end up working at UPS........
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socks
Wow. Weird. I need a better context to put this letter in.
I think this statement speaks loudly about the entire problem I perceive with "personal prophecy" the way CES handles it and the way John (and maybe all involved) think. I guess I don't understand the definition of true and false, as they're applying it.
What does 'at least off track" mean?
The falseness of theone group seems to be based on their disagreement with the second "other" group. Because there's more than one opinion being held forth - at least two? So how does anyone in CES put any trust in their 'personal prophecy'? If there's that much balderdash being slung, with what I'm sure is conviction.
There's a huge gap between "obviously false" and "or at least off track".
Stripped down it just sounds like two sides, one wrong because they disagree with the other. I think the letter goes nowhere in establishing what is right or wrong, true of false, and why John holds that opinion. Shoot, I'm weeping and wringing my hands right now and all I did is read the letter. I can't imagine how distraught John must feel - he wrote it!
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Ductape
While JAL likes to point out how much he follows some proverbs I am reminded of a couple of my favorites, like Proverbs 3:5 & 6. I see a whole lot of JAL leaning to his own understanding and a whole lot of analyze and no indication God was involved in this whole decision making process.
Just because you wrote a book doesn't make the subject shut, cut and dry right. If you bother to look you can see that the whole personal prophecy relies to heavily upon the desires of the one speaking. KAG liked JAL so he received the good words, E was out of grace with KAG so she heard the wrath of God stuff.
So any of you great STFI supporters care to prove the doctrine is true? I have seen to much evil fruit for it to convince me to even look at a book, let alone pay any of my hard earned money to support it.
Once again the Saints are answered with "Buy This Book"
And Mr Lynn; you haven't done a single thing to make me want to let you know who I really am!
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polar bear
My God people, get a life. Get as far away from this thing as you can. Take what I was told and try this. Get away from any group for six months and you won't know yourself.
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Eagle
Wow.
The blasting on John is rather incredible. I don't know what to say. I've bought some of their tapes and books and liked them all. I have only recently heard of "personal prophecy" and I saw someone victimized by that...not as CES but at a church fellowship. Personal prophecy is possible, but unlikely in most cases. Note the example of the man who confronted paul for not listening to the Holy Spirit.
Momentus didn't sound good to me, a major reason I kept my distance from CES in those years.
But i have always liked John A. Lynn and trusted him. I also have spoken to John Schoenheit and had good conversations with him. I completely trust him. This was back in the mid to late 80s. I have emailed Mark Graeser and remember he was excited about CES/STF starting a Bible College. I still agree with that.
I admit not knowing inside information. I agree the BOD of the organization should be above division among themselves.
I wish I could be more enlightened, honestly, about what is so bad about these people. I wish them all the best in the resolution of their situation.
Eagle
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cman
Wow Eagle,
Seen in a different light.
Your post has a lot to offer.
Probably all the problems right there basically.
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GarthP2000
((spits)) What a great SALES PITCH!
Interesting that NOWHERE does he stand up for Elizabeth, not then, and still not now.
Sad, John Lynn, very sad, spineless, and gutless.
Yet you are still on your 'Want to find out more, buy my book' spiel. Like I said, what a great sales pitch. ..... And this is the best your god expects you to do?? Pathetic!
"my heart is weeping ....." at this I'd like to give him the ol' Bugs Bunny routine:
"Ahhhhhhhhh .... Shadduuupppppp!"
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Abigail
Read the threads, Eagle. I would recommend you start with "The Facts" and read the "personal prophesies" there then Elizabeth's letter. You might have a better understanding of where people are coming from.
Beyond that, I am sure John Lynn is not evil incarnate, or even LCM incarnate. However, CES seems to be facing problems not so different than what TWI has faced. Probably for very similar reasons too.
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J0nny Ling0
Let's all go wilding on the STFI!
I dunno. It seems weird to me that many here want to dissect STFI/CES and prove that it is just another consortium of charletons. Now, as weird as the personal prophesy thing seems to me, and definitely never something that I would allow myself or family to be subject to, it seems weird that so many here want to judge the hearts of ALL STFI personel. No doubt there IS some garbage heart mixed in there, but I do believe that the core of this ministry (STFI) was set up to help others, and not just "take their money".
I do believe that this STFI is now a ministry in crisis. But just like with TWI, I believe that CES was started with the benefit of God's people in mind. I hope they can work out their problems and do their best to preach and teach only that which is accurate from God's Word. But, I am of the biblical opinion that this "personal prophesy doctrine" needs to go away for them to achieve the unity that they seek. And, I must say, the "prophecies" from KAG were as spooky and weird as it gets, no doubt about it. It's just that, well, I'm sorry, but it seems like there is a "glee' over all of this stuff here. It's like, the stuuf is so salacious and scandalous (and it is) that it looks like a feeding frenzy is where all can jump on that band wagon and say; "I am not on that wagon! I am on the wagon that is not that wagon!". It just seems to be a different wagon, but still a wagon....
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Eagle
Thanks, cman. That was good of you to say that. I wasn't expecting it.
Abigail,
Thanks for the guidance. I admit not reading those posts and promise I will. It may be the enlightenment I asked for.
God's best...
Eagle
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oenophile
If CES isn't fruit from the poisoned tree, it is enough of a reasonable facsimile to give one great pause before taking a bite.
Robin M. Jackson
rjackson1031@gmail.com
One cult is one too many.
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Tom Strange
Well Jonny, I'm not on any wagon... and I don't find this salacious at all and I certainly haven't seen any "glee over all of this stuff"... but we have different eyes. And again, I think it's sad, unfortunate and wrong when anyone is hurt or abused...
As for folks "jumpin" on JAL. Well, what do you expect? He does his "drive-by" posts here every so often while proclaiming he doesn't want to use the internet to communicate... well... what was it he just did? He uses the internet to communicate... he just wants it to be one way communication... for us all to 'bow at his feet and kiss his ring'... AND (IMHO) then steps back so he can say "I don't use it" (setting himself above it all) while at the same time saying that those of us who do were "anonymous people who lack love and courage"...
Yeah... a lot of love there... I've had it with his disingenuous and pious attitude and his total lack of humility... TELL ME THIS, HAS JAL EVER ACTED REPENTANT FOR ANYTHING UNTIL HE WAS CAUGHT? ...exactly... and now he comes out with his letter to Mark G, couched on both ends in smarminess...
I don't see anyone taking any particular glee in CES problems, I see concern for those that have been or could be effected by this bad doctrine they've let creep in... "they" being the board of directors... As for "jumping on JAL"??? well heck yeah! And he deserves it!!! (In my opinion and I'm thinking a few others opinion here as well).
Don't confuse an unwillingness to accept JAL's swill with the posts opposing the actions of the board of CES... they're two different things. No glee in the CES thing and utter contempt at the audacity of JAL to fail to be honest... AGAIN.
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J0nny Ling0
And so, offering his personal phone number is not an effort to communicate? I just don't get that. It is an attempt to communicate. And, I see nothing wrong with him wanting to know the names of his accusers. Shoot, we know his name. I rarely offer my personal phone number over the Net. But he did.... :blink:
And Tom, "glee" is the wrong word I spose, but, it's like; "Look! More scandal which we can now get all worked up over! Get self righteous over! And look! JAL has come here, but, he didn't respond the way we want him too! Such scandal!" Which just seems to be "feeding frenzy-ish", where the participants join in because they like it..
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dmiller
For what it's worth ---
From my distant/ partner perspective of CES/STF --
the org has had always seemed to be forthcoming about new things they were learning.
Sadly -- they were not as forthcoming with the present internal problems.
While quick to admit that teachings they've promoted in the past,
were in fact not correct according to new things learned --
it's a shame (imo) that *correction* couldn't be done in other areas as well.
Especially in this area -- where folks are directly impacted in their personal lives.
Now -- I am neither condoning nor condemning them as an org.
They've got problems. Your guess is as good as mine, as to how this will end.
And may I mention/ define my use of the word *org*.
Any group is an organization -- an org.
And all orgs come from somewhere -- each one has a history.
This one happens to be an offshoot of twi, so it's immediately suspect to some.
Well -- good. As it should be. Given the principal initiators of CES --
healthy doubt is a GOOD thing.
Question a lot, get out the knife to dissect, and have at it.
Do the same with the org of your choice.
Do I need an org to help me walk the Christian walk better?? NO.
Neither do you, nor does anyone else.
But many of us have chosen an org to follow after our exit from twi.
And that's whether it's *this denomination* or *that denomination*.
If you have involved yourself in a church/ denominatiion (regardless of persuasion),
you are following an org, which (by definition) has little difference than CES.
Now -- are there no problems in your org?
Are there no *burning issues* that have been hidden in a back closet somewhere?
There's no history of wrong-doing at all?
Paw said it best -- This is something that needs to be addressed.
And ya ain't a'gonna do it by tearing down someone else's house.
(Ps -- this is going to be my one and only response to this thread.
I would rather pray/ think good thoughts/ whatever for those directly involved.)
As always --- this is just my IMO. I hope some take it to heart.
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Tom Strange
Well... I haven't heard of anyone who has called him... Abigail sent him an email, maybe others have... she's gotten no response... it's his whole "attitude" that comes across in "his posts" Jonny... at least that's the way he comes across to me... I could be wrong, but I don't think I am...
I think I'd expect a "feeding frenzy" like reaction. People who post at this board have been in TWI. They have very high/heated emotions when it comes to people being hurt and used by ANY organization.
Did he really answer anything in that "position paper"??? The way I read it was that his position was that there was a problem, then he came to believe that MG and KAG were the problem, he implored MG to step aside, and then he agreed with the majority of the board that MG and KAG were the problem, and one way or another MG and KAG are going away and things will be "all better"...
This problem is a lot bigger than MG and KAG, they're simply ONE manifestation of it... and the board (and JAL) were there all along while this problem (these problems) were creeping in and taking root in CES/STFI... where was their vigilance for God's people and Word then?
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J0nny Ling0
Well, at least he did in fact desire to get rid of a very serious problem in the form of MG and KAG. They may not be the root of the problem, but with those kinds of spewings and rantings, I think it was a good place to start. If I am driving toward a cliff in my truck, the first thing I have to do is stop before I go over. And then, once calmed down, would then begin to examine just why I ended up in such a perdicament in the first place. If I'd not stopped my destructive direction, it would then be too late to do any self examination.
Tom, I added a little more to my previous post...
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socks
Is this the GS Glee Club Jonny?
Y'know, this whole thing reads like a pizza that's flopped off the back of a truck. In the rain.
There are CES issues, personal issues, marital issues, doctrinal issues, etc. etc. All this stuff, and probably a lot more.
It's crazy, reading about it from this view. Makes no sense and is so far outside of the realm of what I live it's like reading the back-story to Star Wars or something.
Not that I'm perfect or don't have problems and difficulties, nope. But the people I trust and that help me when I need it don't have dreams about spiders crawling out of someone's nose or whatever. That whole thing's just too gross for words and if I'm getting it right, the fact that this bunch has people corroborating all of it with more dreams and prophetic messages is scarey. They probably don't think so, they seem to think directing their lives by someone else's nightmares is normal - in all honesty - why or how could I possibly look to those same people for clarification - they're the ones having and listening to each others dreams and prophecies.
Blind leading the blind isn't some harsh 'spiritual' condemnation. It's a well worn piece of wisdom that fits many of life's situations. It certainly seems to wrap around what I've read here.
...a guy steps down from his position, is replaced by the husband of a wife who gives personal ministerial direction and marriage counselling based on dreams that are ratified by a board made up of suporters, and who later terminates his marriage considering guidance from the wife...who...
Sorry. I'm not gleeful. All org's don't have problems like these. All org's don't entertain dream-prophecy as useful input. Some org's talk, communicate, pray about stuff, consider 'guidance' from their people and act reasonably intelligent, loving and meek.
I have only a limited view into CES. From there, I don't think this kind of thing is normal-run-of-the-mill-everybody-has-a-bad-month stuff. My impression from their history - sooner or later CES would shoot themselves in the foot. My .02 cents. I wish it wasn't so. That's the way it reads to me.
- IMO putting it on GS has value - although it's opening up all kinds of private personal things to the world, most of which is like me, not involved. Doing that and assumes something - that there's a good that will come from it. Trust me, I could have gone a long time without knowing anything about any of this, y'know? I can see some benefits already -
--- those that are involved have a means of letting CES participants outside the immediate circle know more of an 'inside' story on what's going on and their concern.
--- those involved now or from the past have a place to discuss it amongst themselves (with input from anyone else reading of course)
--- a lot of varied and diverse views and opinions, ideas and suggestions, both critical and supportive.
--- venting, and release of tension and pressure through expression.
The last is important. Steam has to go somewhere. It's not enough to tell a pot that's boiling to stop. Action has to be taken to direct that energy or it'll boil over. The average person is, I think, perfectly willing to act honorably. Shutting people out or down makes it hard for them to do that.
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Abigail
Well said, Tom. Its really not that difficult to sit back and pinpoint some of those problems.
1. If the majority of the board agrees that an individual needs to be removed from a position - especially a high position like President, but has no power to remove that individual, the structure is bad.
2. When new things are taught (such as personal prophesy, Jesus is or isn't God), I can't help but wonder who decides what is on or off "The Word." Who makes sure it is truly accurate? Is there a research team? Does the research team basically consist of the very same people who are the board? [Again, if it does, the structure is bad, because it lacks proper checks and balances.]
3. It seems to me, somewhere along the line, people stopped worshipping God and started worshipping their friends and/or their "prophets".
4. John Lynn talks about disagreeing with some of the prophesies (and good for him for doing so!), but does one have to be a "top gun" in CES in order to be allowed to do so? Who determines what prophesies are truly from God and which are not? What is the process? Where are the checks and balances?
5. Who determines under what circumstances a staff member can be fired? Is there a proper job description and means of evaluating performance? If there isn't, not only is there a lack of proper checks and balances, but depending on the state laws where the employee is working, they could leave themselves open to a lawsuit.
There's a start, and one that doesn't even begin to discuss the soundness, or lack thereof, of their doctrine.
Johnny, I understand where you are coming from - you've a good heart, really. I see this from a different perspective than you, though. When people use God or "His Word" as a weapon to beat up others, when they hide behind it to excuse hurtful words or actions, in my opinion it is a manifestation of their heart.
I'm not saying John Lynn or the others are evil, but there is something wrong there. Maybe it is fear, fear of losing their position within the organization, a lack of trust that people would understand and forgive if the real truth were known, whatever. Maybe it is greed. Maybe one or more of them has simply become delusional. But having spent 10 years under LCM's reign in TWI, it does stir up a lot of emotions in me when I read about this stuff.
Preaching/pastoring/ministering/teaching in God's name is a very serious business (and isn't it unfortuante that is often such a lucrative business, too?). No one should get away with using God to hurt others.
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TheInvisibleDan
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=12513
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