HEY! CES/STFI BOARD AND JAL: COME OUT INTO THE LIGHT AND FACE YOUR CONSTITUENTS!!! YOU DON'T HAVE TO COME OUT HERE AT GSC, COME OUT ANYWHERE! QUIT HUDDLING IN YOUR DARK CORNERS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH EVERYONE REALLY KNOWS AND FACE THE MUSIC! COME OUT ON YOUR WEBSITE! COME OUT IN A PUBLIC MEETING WHERE ALL CONSTITUENTS HAVE BEEN OPENLY AND FREELY INVITED! COME OUT WITH A FREE EXCHANGE, AN OPEN DISCOURSE WITH YOUR CONSTITUENTS!!!
QUIT WORRYING ABOUT DAMAGE CONTROL AND START BEING HONEST WITH YOURSELVES, YOUR CONSTITUENTS AND GOD.
ANYTHING LESS IS UNACCEPTABLE... YOUR 'REIGN' IS OVER... NO MORE SECRECY.
After all... IF what you are and have been doing is really of God... you don't have anything to worry about do you?
These excerpts used with permission from some other PM's and forwards. I thought there were some interesting things in here to communicate to BOD and staff people directly if they are still reviewing these posts. Especially if they are seen this week as they are some thoughts from the community on the current situation, and the awareness that much of this may have been going on for some time.
>>> ...still peripherally in touch with some BOD and staff. have started some communication with several about getting to the real root. .... we can't absolve the guilt by saying, 'i didn't see it happening but please come back for version 2' because then you're asking people to join a group where you have no control or oversight over how they are treated. not cool. if it's not something you can take responsibility for, don't ask for authority.
>>> Real leaders lead people to Jesus, and are willing to 'lose them' to him. This is a daily challenge for us all because every day can bring the same temptation Jesus faced in the desert especially when you involve power and money.
>>> and it won't be resolved by just giving KA and 'problem people' the boot, the whole question of how it could have gotten here has to be looked at. This leadership team had more programs going than cable TV and the meltdown started with them. If that doesn't create a huge credibility problem with trainings and programs and make them look like philosophies of men ...
>>> cults are ANY place people defer the authority of Jesus to a man.
>>> the reports that some have not heeded God's direct revelation to them is very sad and the consequences obvious. i've seen that in other splinter groups too. people who clearly walk with God and hear Him but don't believe it and have to have it 'validated' by someone else. there's no problem with seeking 'counsel' but not to give up responsibility of your own walk for which YOU will be held accountable by God.
>>> ...that statistic about children falling down 1,500 times while they're learning to walk. God doesn't use the words, 'walk by faith' without purpose. All the people of faith documented in the Bible made huge mistakes, doubted God, sometimes came around, sometimes didn't but restoration comes frmo turning back to him.
>>> God didn't ever recommend "Christian psy." He made His recommendations clear and it's called THE BIBLE and if you need more you learn through THE SPIRIT. WHen you need to talk you get FRIENDS and they should be TRUSTWORTHY.
>>> God is always the healer and notanything or anyone else.
>>> several times i've heard brought up to drop the psychobabble or at LEAST not hold it to the same level of authority as the bible and heard, 'the word, the word, nothing but the word, where have we heard that before?' so if you ask people to return to the teachings of Jesus you are obviously VPW (not).
>>> ...and now some realisations that problems people brought to leadership were real but went unheaded. Or worse, were eventually recognized but dealt with 'internally' and the offence was not resolved back in the body and people left with more hurt than before.
>>> God compares those that meditate on His word to trees planted by a river of living water. Trees grow so slowly it's hard to ever see it, the opposite of programs like Momentus and EST that attempt to force and speed up growth which is not healthy and against God's design. Trees that grow quickly without deep roots fall over in the first storm, and many people have gone down that same path - not to mention the sickening way they act toward the 'unninitiated' because they have a new 'level of spirituality' they've obtained with new vocabulary, private music (secret handshakes), oh yeah, that's biblical. these attitudes are what keeps bringing the TWI charge...
>>> a big lesson for some on the BOD to see is how strongly God is working in the lives of people outside the leadership community. the body has only one head. as for the rest, 'parts is parts' as the TV commercial used to say. some need to get over themselves. another poster rightly said that being a leader for Jesus starts with washing feet and often ends with hanging on a cross - be careful what you ask for!
.... we can't absolve the guilt by saying, 'i didn't see it happening but please come back for version 2' because then you're asking people to join a group where you have no control or oversight over how they are treated. not cool. if it's not something you can take responsibility for, don't ask for authority.
This bears repeating. It's also a good thing for the people still involved with TWI to consider. Are things really better when you've still got people in charge who don't take responsibility for the lives that were destroyed on their watch?
No matter what, nothing will be resolved this week, month or year.
It has been over 20 years and things are still shaking from the tree of TWI. WAKE UP! LEARN FROM THE PAST!
There is no magic class, no magic prophecy, no magic wave of a Bible verse that will fix lives. Classes don't change lives, leaders don't change lives, BOT"s don't change lives.
There is no magic class, no magic prophecy, no magic wave of a Bible verse that will fix lives. Classes don't change lives, leaders don't change lives, BOT"s don't change lives.
The greatest secret in the world today is, there is NO SECRET. (to quote one of my favorite people )
Yes it is cold here in Caribou. But I (strangely?) like the cold and snow.
My two cents added below.
You are right, 1b1.
Mark is just as 'strong' as KA.
JAL's 'inordinate allegiance to the Graesers' has (although people have told him over and over for years) blinded him to their 'other side'...until now.
>I always thought that Mark and John Lynn's friendship went too far in covering each others butt.
So, getting the Gs' influence out of the CES office is a start.
> The G's have a beautiful family. Maybe it's time to concentrate on family matters and then maybe reach out in the future.
But.....getting the leaven (that which influenced the Gs) out of the CES leadership's hearts and minds (since they ALL went along with them for years) is the only way any of them (including the Gs and Rs) should ever be considered "leadership" again.
> God bless Mark and Karen Anne. I've had some excellent prayer sessions with them. They have helped me out in gaining some spiritual insight in certain areas of life. The folks who are "leaders" in STFI should split up, refresh themselves, get connected to God again, get to know the freedom in Christ, and then move forward.
God wants, of course, to forgive and cleanse each of them as much as He wants to forgive and cleanse you or me the next time we sin.
The purpose of exposure of the sin of leadership is 3-fold: stop God's people from being hurt, allow believers to make a fully-informed choice of whom to support, and, hopefully, help wake up leadership too.
I ventured to this forum to find out what was going on with The Spirit and Truth Int.
Now I would like to weigh in with my perspective, and pray it will resonate with the Christ within you as you read.
I must say that I am dismayed, though not surprised, with some of the antagonsim being expressed towards the CES/S&TF leadership.
Perhaps it is good to have an outlet to vent these frustrations and concerns and opinions , but I pray that as we consider these words
that the Lord Jesus Christ will give us understanding
and work within us to be conformed more and more to his image.
My relationship with CES has been very close at times and very distant at times.
When I tell you that I love , respect, and admire John Lynn and Mark Graeser and John Schoenheit and Dan Gallager ; please understand that I am not unaware nor ignorant of times where they may have missed the mark.
I will defer the final determination of all that to the righteous judge, Jesus Christ.
I recall quite vividly how John Lynn described ( as only John can do )
the challenge of striving to "Do Christiamity Right"
while being "All Covered with Flesh" !!
Yuk!
I consider John Lynn an Apostle and Teacher of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I Corinthians 4:9 describes an apostle as being a spectacle to the world and John epitomizes that scripture in my heart. Even his failures have taught me many good lessons.
I've heard a lot of people say a lot of bad things about John
but the worst things I have heard straight from John's mouth.
The way he bares his heart is what speaking the truth in Love is all about.
( even if he can be very stubborn and opinionated!!)
I can't imagine the grief John must have felt as he wrote this letter regarding the actions of his dearest and most trusted friends.
I have been on and off board the CES ship at various times,
yet I have always been impressed with their integrity and godly love.
They have always been intent on doing what is right in the eyes of God,
and I respect that intention whole heartedly.
A few years ago my marriage was in a very distressing state.
I think the only thing my wife and I could agree on was that we trusted John Schoenheit's perspective.
John very generously gave us great attention and invested his soul into saving our family.
Yes, there was a dose of what you might call psycho-babble,
but it was all being sifted though the Word of God and our combined godly perspectives.
It was a gut wrenching process.
A lot of those " he said I had my head up my butt and it hurt my feelings" sort of things.
Praise God that we are now more happily married than ever .
I give the Almighty God the glory for this.
I recognize how He was working through Christ in each one of us
to to bring about a healthy resolution.
I am very grateful to John S. especially for the way he ministered to us.
Likewise a number of other saints of S&TF served beautifully
just the way you would want the family of God to work by 'speaking the truth in Love.'
I dare say God has wrought much more good in people's lives
though The Sprirt and Truth Fellowship
than any harm that may have come through it.
But again I will defer that determination to the Righteous Judge.
I am praying passionately that the present situation will be addressed soundly
and will serve to succour and strengthen this great association of believers
in The Sprit and Truth Fellowship.
I believe the Lord Jesus has worked to bring them to a point of being able to make a huge impact in this troubled world.
I believe the enemy is out to destroy it all.
I believe the Captain of Salvation is at work to right the ship,
'throughly furnishing them unto every good work.'
If all goes well with them, then it will all go well with us
for we are all truely united together in Christ and His Redeeming Love.
...And I am praying for you, dear reader...
I can feel the pain of old wounds as I read some of your posts
and pray the Good Shepherd of your soul
will come alongside you
and minister to your heart
as only he can do.
( which is usually through broken saints)
I was wondering why you are here at the Grease Spot at all.
I believe that it is because you've had times experiencing
the touch of the Master's hand upon your heart
as you listened to the Word of Truth
being expressed by a gifted teacher in Christ,
I believe your heart yearns for more of those encounters with Christ,
in the fellowship of the Saints in Light,
and Christ Jesus surely yearns for more of them with you too.
Maybe that minister was Dr Victor Paul Weirwille, or Craig Martindale,
or John Lynn, or Mark Graeser;
or all of them and many others of the same kind at various times.
and then maybe one of them let you down and caused you pain.
betrayed your trust
it's the sincere ones that can really get you, you know.
They're all covered with flesh ,
just like you and me.
Welcome to the Family of God !!
Through it all you are and will always be
the Apple of The Father's Eye,
and He is already at work to tend to your every need
and has your road to Glory all mapped out.
Believe It
I once told John Lynn ( in the middle of a very agitated disagreement !)
that I would fight for him just like I do for Dr. Weirwille.
and that is what I have endeavored to do just now.
with a heart that is open like a sunflower to the sun
Estimated Prophet? Did you mean to call yourself "esteemed prophet?" "Estimable prophet?" What is an estimated prophet? What are you telling us about yourself?
--
You've joined the Greasespot Chorale Internationale singing a familiar refrain, a favorite old chestnut known as, among other things, the "baby & bathwater" routine. Speaking of babies, someone here named "oldiesman" will probably want to have your baby, if it were only possible. Be very thankful it is not.
Among the countless seekers who bounce from movement to movement, a few will find a shepherd they like and join the flock (which I'd say is possibly more like a harem). They assign a cosmic, transcendant validity to their artful shepherds, and Shazzam! Consensual mind control - acquiescence and accommodation. They move their mouths, their lips, their tongues - suddenly the "leader" can order a lousy pizza, and it's as if every nuance is animated by the Holy Spirit. This is a form of infatuation. Unhealthy obsession. EP, I can't know the circumstances of your life, but from my corner of the universe, you appear to have found your comfort zone.
Cults like CES, dysfunctional meta-tribes (i.e., viral-belief-centered associations ), can't accommodate everyone. The more specialized they are, the more discriminating. Narrowing the faith down to a single and rigorous interpretation of Christian dogma, and to the few personalities authorized to interpret, makes CES' appeal highly selective.
A "viral" (contagious) belief system requires a compatibly complicit host. That's why most of us can't join you. We caught the TWI virus, and we recovered. What strengthened our own immune systems has compromised others, like (I suggest) your own. You are a reasonably good host, and most of us are not.
Please understand I do not reject Jesus Christ because I reject CES. I reject CES because, though I know much less of them than you must, I know more than enough.
I first came to the Cafe when I was told someone placed here the "prophecies" given to JAL and his wife, and her subsequent letter to him. I've known of errors in CES for years and was sorry to see them become this public, but glad to see that perhaps they therefore might end.
We all screw up in life. That's why we need a Savior.
The difference is that some folks ask for the job of Christian leadership ...and the Word seems to say that they are held to a higher standard. Certainly their errors can affect more people than might yours and mine. Whether the errors were intentional or not is irrelevant. They simply must be stopped ==quickly== in order to limit the carnage of innocents who trusted them.
(Newcomer, that's what I mean by headlines. Not headlines in the media world, but headlines in our world of 1000s of folks we've loved/met/known/heard of in TWI and beyond.)
Because I love the CES folks I stand firmly for their total stripping of error. Legalism, pride, elitism, psycho-babble, all of this and more. All that there is. All the leaven. All. Just as I hope they would stand for if they saw the same in my life. My friends and family have been adversely affected by lies these folks have believed and therefore I will continue to stand so that others will not be!
I cannot make anyone think or do anything. But real love does not ignore mediocrity in friends who love excellence, ungodliness in family who love godliness, evil in brothers/sisters in Christ who love good.
I recall quite vividly how John Lynn described ( as only John can do )
the challenge of striving to "Do Christiamity Right"
while being "All Covered with Flesh" !!
deeeeeeeeeerail:
i've had a problem with this premise for a long time. isn't christianity designed for people? (who else?) why is it that our flesh--the stuff all people are made of--is precisely the thing that make practicing christianity so difficult? isn't that the Catch-22 of all Catch-22s? it's like saying "I've designed the perfect automobile fuel. any car that runs on it will get unheard-of mileage and performance. only trouble is, it really doesn't work that well in internal combustion engines."
is God an idiot? would he really design the ultimate system for optimal human functioning so that it would work perfectly if we weren't human? personally, i think it's just part of the con to keep you coming back: "this is real hard to do, so you'd better stick close to us. otherwise, you've got no hope at all."
by the way, that's an interesting choice of names, prophet:
My time coming, any day, dont worry about me, no
Its gonna be just like they say, them voices tell me so
Seems so long I felt this way and time sure passin slow
Still I know I lead the way, they tell me where I go.
...I consider John Lynn an Apostle and Teacher of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I Corinthians 4:9 describes an apostle as being a spectacle to the world and John epitomizes that scripture in my heart. Even his failures have taught me many good lessons.
I've heard a lot of people say a lot of bad things about John
but the worst things I have heard straight from John's mouth.
The way he bares his heart is what speaking the truth in Love is all about.
( even if he can be very stubborn and opinionated!!)
I can't imagine the grief John must have felt as he wrote this letter regarding the actions of his dearest and most trusted friends.
I have been on and off board the CES ship at various times,
yet I have always been impressed with their integrity and godly love.
They have always been intent on doing what is right in the eyes of God,
and I respect that intention whole heartedly...
...I give the Almighty God the glory for this.
I recognize how He was working through Christ in each one of us
to to bring about a healthy resolution.
I am very grateful to John S. especially for the way he ministered to us.
Likewise a number of other saints of S&TF served beautifully
just the way you would want the family of God to work by 'speaking the truth in Love.'
I dare say God has wrought much more good in people's lives
though The Sprirt and Truth Fellowship
than any harm that may have come through it.
But again I will defer that determination to the Righteous Judge.
I am praying passionately that the present situation will be addressed soundly
and will serve to succour and strengthen this great association of believers
in The Sprit and Truth Fellowship.
I believe the Lord Jesus has worked to bring them to a point of being able to make a huge impact in this troubled world. I believe the enemy is out to destroy it all...
Welcome to GSC, Estimated Prophet. I lean towards the notion that the office of an Apostle was something conferred on the individually personally by Jesus Christ with one of the qualifying factors being that the person had actually seen the resurrected Christ – and that the office may not have been necessary after the newly formed church was established – and from what I understand the biblical definition of an Apostle is different than the way VPW described it.
…As far as John L being a Teacher – that's something I seriously take issue on. I recall in one of his letters to followers of his group – talking about how as former followers of TWI they are like the Israelites of old escaping the bondage of Egypt but taking with them all the gold – implying they've got all that wonderful rightly-divided Word and doctrinal truth from TWI – but are going to do things differently! I tend to view him as more of a great salesman – it doesn't matter what product he's selling – he'll get it moving off the shelves for sure!
…I personally think any former leader in a cult has ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS starting their own ministry! Gee whiz – the Apostle Paul took quite awhile re-building his theology after Jesus Christ knocked him off his high horse – who knows how long – some commentaries put it at between 3 and 14 years. I've got nothing personal against John L or anyone that's started offshoots from TWI – and I'm not accusing them of any evil practices. I'm just asking WHAT qualifies them to lead anybody? They can have the best intentions in the world, immaculate personal integrity – but I KNOW from personal experience that will not help one iota. How so? I went through TWI's leadership training program the Way Corps. I always put TWI ahead of everything in my life thinking I was serving God and NEVER committed adultery – though unbeknownst to me at the time I'm working for a self-serving outfit with upper management having a free-for-all targeting/sexually molesting women…even with the grand poobah himself [VPW]– the dude with all five gift ministries and a girl at every bus station flaunting his immorality right under our noses by occasionally showing the Corps his favorite doggie/women porn video!..Yeah - marvelous leadership training program - really builds chracter and enables you to seperate truth from error. And wasn't John L a Corps Coordinator for awhile? What a great program the Way Corps is - screwing up preparing people to screw up to lead other people.
…I'll tell yah what. The devil doesn't have to waste any energy destroying some TWI-offshoots. Somebody needs to save them from themselves!Egad!!!! Reading all this mess with CES – I just shake my head. What do you expect? Let's check in with Prophet Foxworthy: If your plan and process of operation are similar to TWI's – you might be a chip off the old cult. If your doctrinal assumptions are similar to TWI's - you might be a chip off the old cult. If you think the devil is on the attack every time followers start arguing amongst themselves – you might be a chip off the old cult. If you consider your presumed enlightenment of the Scriptures will have an enormous impact on the rest of us poor dullards – you might be a chip off the old cult. And if you think your top leadership has a direct line to God Himself and that they are the next best thing to Christ on a stick and for all intents and purposes should act as THE GOVERNING AUTHORITY for all church matters - you definitely are a chip off the old cult…Of course that's just the opinion of Prophet Foxworthy and he may be wrong.
I ventured to this forum to find out what was going on with The Spirit and Truth Int.
Now I would like to weigh in with my perspective, and pray it will resonate with the Christ within you as you read.
I must say that I am dismayed, though not surprised, with some of the antagonsim being expressed towards the CES/S&TF leadership.
[We're MORE dismayed that there's grounds FOR antagonism, than that there
IS antagonism. But hey, your opinion is your own, and you are well entitled
to it. This being an open board, you are also free to post it.
And I'm free to disagree.]
Perhaps it is good to have an outlet to vent these frustrations and concerns and opinions , but I pray that as we consider these words
that the Lord Jesus Christ will give us understanding
and work within us to be conformed more and more to his image.
[Not a bad sentiment. Might I add praying for the problems that all
the outrage are over be FIXED, maybe?]
My relationship with CES has been very close at times and very distant at times.
When I tell you that I love , respect, and admire John Lynn and Mark Graeser and John Schoenheit and Dan Gallager ; please understand that I am not unaware nor ignorant of times where they may have missed the mark.
I will defer the final determination of all that to the righteous judge, Jesus Christ.
[so will we, but we also think that problems and errors in doctrine and
practice need not wait until Judgement Day to be addressed.
IIRC, CES started out with precisely that intention, with lists of things
in which vpw and twi were in error which they sought to correct.
The errors of OTHERS, apparently, are "free game" to correct,
but the errors of THEMSELVES are sacrosanct.
There's a word for having different rules for yourself than for others.
Proverbs disagreed with it, too.
Proverbs 20:10
"Differing weights and differing measures,
Both of them are abominable to the LORD." (NASB) ]
I recall quite vividly how John Lynn described ( as only John can do )
the challenge of striving to "Do Christiamity Right"
while being "All Covered with Flesh" !!
Yuk!
[Takes a lot of work, it does. Thus the need not to do a PARTIAL job,
especially when making decisions that affect MANY others.
God's people deserve better than this.]
I consider John Lynn an Apostle and Teacher of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I Corinthians 4:9 describes an apostle as being a spectacle to the world and John epitomizes that scripture in my heart. Even his failures have taught me many good lessons.
[That's hardly a definition, "apostle=spectacle to the world",
otherwise Paris Hilton would be a greater apostle than JAL ever was.]
I've heard a lot of people say a lot of bad things about John
but the worst things I have heard straight from John's mouth.
The way he bares his heart is what speaking the truth in Love is all about.
( even if he can be very stubborn and opinionated!!)
I can't imagine the grief John must have felt as he wrote this letter regarding the actions of his dearest and most trusted friends.
[Of course, he can choose which problems to be candid about-
but the ones affecting large numbers of people are the ones we object to,
and THOSE are being DEFENDED and BURIED as much as possible.
And we're attacked for shining a light on them.
Shouldn't he be thankful we're bringing him to light,
if he really exemplifies humility?
There is such a thing-and twi'ers and extwiers are often experts at this-
as the arrogant display putting forth an absence of arrogance,
the Arrogance of Humility,
a display meant to convey humility, so that it is seen of men.]
I have been on and off board the CES ship at various times,
yet I have always been impressed with their integrity and godly love.
They have always been intent on doing what is right in the eyes of God,
and I respect that intention whole heartedly.
[intent is all well and good, but I primarily have to go on the ACTIONS
produced regardless of the intent-or at least as more important than
the intent OF the actions.]
A few years ago my marriage was in a very distressing state.
I think the only thing my wife and I could agree on was that we trusted John Schoenheit's perspective.
John very generously gave us great attention and invested his soul into saving our family.
Yes, there was a dose of what you might call psycho-babble,
but it was all being sifted though the Word of God and our combined godly perspectives.
It was a gut wrenching process.
A lot of those " he said I had my head up my butt and it hurt my feelings" sort of things.
Praise God that we are now more happily married than ever .
I give the Almighty God the glory for this.
I recognize how He was working through Christ in each one of us
to to bring about a healthy resolution.
I am very grateful to John S. especially for the way he ministered to us.
Likewise a number of other saints of S&TF served beautifully
just the way you would want the family of God to work by 'speaking the truth in Love.'
[That's all very nice and wonderful, and I shall not question your testimony,
but rather shall take it as largely the facts of what happened.
That having been said,
niceness and beatification really don't change the errors that are being propounded
and taught, and we're discussing. Are you saying that a beatific intent affects
the things we objected to? I noticed it didn't affect when JAL insulted us...]
I dare say God has wrought much more good in people's lives
though The Sprirt and Truth Fellowship
than any harm that may have come through it.
[i dare say that when you need to reduce lives and the harm done to people's lives
to percentages and one end of a balance-scale in order to justify harm
by saying it's lighter than the good done in OTHER lives,
it's time to pack your bags and find a group that does not consider
people as DISPOSABLE, or numbers in a graph.]
But again I will defer that determination to the Righteous Judge.
[i will not let ALL matters await Judgement Day, but rather will use the
brains that God gave me-and standards mentioned in the Bible,
to consider whether doctrines, actions, or groups need to be changed.
Otherwise, I'll have to answer to the Righteous Judge as to why I turned
a blind eye when I saw wrongs to his brethren.]
I am praying passionately that the present situation will be addressed soundly
and will serve to succour and strengthen this great association of believers
in The Sprit and Truth Fellowship.
I believe the Lord Jesus has worked to bring them to a point of being able to make a huge impact in this troubled world.
I believe the enemy is out to destroy it all.
I believe the Captain of Salvation is at work to right the ship,
'throughly furnishing them unto every good work.'
If all goes well with them, then it will all go well with us
for we are all truely united together in Christ and His Redeeming Love.
[inasmuch that this is true of ALL Christians, I agree.
If you mean "as compared to most Christians", I find this to be inflated.]
...And I am praying for you, dear reader...
I can feel the pain of old wounds as I read some of your posts
and pray the Good Shepherd of your soul
will come alongside you
and minister to your heart
as only he can do.
( which is usually through broken saints)
I was wondering why you are here at the Grease Spot at all.
[Many of us, to expose the wrongs done and BURIED under a veneer
of religiousness. Recent events sound familiar in generalities to us.
Some of us are here for the company or the games.
Some are here for other reasons, like reminisces and other things.]
I believe that it is because you've had times experiencing
the touch of the Master's hand upon your heart
as you listened to the Word of Truth
being expressed by a gifted teacher in Christ,
I believe your heart yearns for more of those encounters with Christ,
in the fellowship of the Saints in Light,
and Christ Jesus surely yearns for more of them with you too.
Maybe that minister was Dr Victor Paul Weirwille, or Craig Martindale,
or John Lynn, or Mark Graeser;
or all of them and many others of the same kind at various times.
and then maybe one of them let you down and caused you pain.
betrayed your trust
it's the sincere ones that can really get you, you know.
They're all covered with flesh ,
just like you and me.
Welcome to the Family of God !!
Through it all you are and will always be
the Apple of The Father's Eye,
and He is already at work to tend to your every need
and has your road to Glory all mapped out.
Believe It
I once told John Lynn ( in the middle of a very agitated disagreement !)
that I would fight for him just like I do for Dr. Weirwille.
and that is what I have endeavored to do just now.
with a heart that is open like a sunflower to the sun
I conclude by saying
God Bless You
I Love You
You Are the Best
(because God made you that way in Christ)
[That was very flowery, touching and beautiful.
Does all the wonderful things still apply to those of us who
prayerfully disagree with JAL, and prayerfully disagree with
HIDING ERRORS THAT HURT PEOPLE?
See, he insulted some of us for that reason,
while still complimenting the wonderful Christians who wonderfully
agree with him.
The rest of us, we weren't so fantastic.
Even the "publicans" do good to those who return the favour...
Which puts him acting at a lower standard than them...]
I don’t know, Tom – I honestly don’t know…guess the spirit works in mysterious ways in mysterious people…probably varies from person to person…Yah know…one person may get so upset at the web of deceit they find in another individual that spiders just come a crawling out their noseballs…Me? I guess I get all hep – so to speak – all shook – and poof – there’s red ink in my post.
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Estimated Prophet 47 posts
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Sushi
Yeah, that's when you are unable to drink responsibly anymore.
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doojable
Drinking Heinies while stuffing heinies while heinously writing a letter.......
NOW we're back on topic! ;)
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Sushi
It's more than the letter deserves, Dooj.
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doojable
Ok Sushi - but the derail was fun.....
Now to our regularly scheduled insanity.
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Tom Strange
HEY! CES/STFI BOARD AND JAL: COME OUT INTO THE LIGHT AND FACE YOUR CONSTITUENTS!!! YOU DON'T HAVE TO COME OUT HERE AT GSC, COME OUT ANYWHERE! QUIT HUDDLING IN YOUR DARK CORNERS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH EVERYONE REALLY KNOWS AND FACE THE MUSIC! COME OUT ON YOUR WEBSITE! COME OUT IN A PUBLIC MEETING WHERE ALL CONSTITUENTS HAVE BEEN OPENLY AND FREELY INVITED! COME OUT WITH A FREE EXCHANGE, AN OPEN DISCOURSE WITH YOUR CONSTITUENTS!!!
QUIT WORRYING ABOUT DAMAGE CONTROL AND START BEING HONEST WITH YOURSELVES, YOUR CONSTITUENTS AND GOD.
ANYTHING LESS IS UNACCEPTABLE... YOUR 'REIGN' IS OVER... NO MORE SECRECY.
After all... IF what you are and have been doing is really of God... you don't have anything to worry about do you?
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doojable
Thanks Tom!
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1broken1
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Belle
This bears repeating. It's also a good thing for the people still involved with TWI to consider. Are things really better when you've still got people in charge who don't take responsibility for the lives that were destroyed on their watch?
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doojable
No matter what, nothing will be resolved this week, month or year.
It has been over 20 years and things are still shaking from the tree of TWI. WAKE UP! LEARN FROM THE PAST!
There is no magic class, no magic prophecy, no magic wave of a Bible verse that will fix lives. Classes don't change lives, leaders don't change lives, BOT"s don't change lives.
Come on people! THIS ISN'T ROCKET SCIENCE!
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Sushi
The greatest secret in the world today is, there is NO SECRET. (to quote one of my favorite people
)
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excathedra
i'm into reality
hey JAL
your little group is not a crisis for crisis sake
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caribousam
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Estimated Prophet
Peace
I ventured to this forum to find out what was going on with The Spirit and Truth Int.
Now I would like to weigh in with my perspective, and pray it will resonate with the Christ within you as you read.
I must say that I am dismayed, though not surprised, with some of the antagonsim being expressed towards the CES/S&TF leadership.
Perhaps it is good to have an outlet to vent these frustrations and concerns and opinions , but I pray that as we consider these words
that the Lord Jesus Christ will give us understanding
and work within us to be conformed more and more to his image.
My relationship with CES has been very close at times and very distant at times.
When I tell you that I love , respect, and admire John Lynn and Mark Graeser and John Schoenheit and Dan Gallager ; please understand that I am not unaware nor ignorant of times where they may have missed the mark.
I will defer the final determination of all that to the righteous judge, Jesus Christ.
I recall quite vividly how John Lynn described ( as only John can do )
the challenge of striving to "Do Christiamity Right"
while being "All Covered with Flesh" !!
Yuk!
I consider John Lynn an Apostle and Teacher of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I Corinthians 4:9 describes an apostle as being a spectacle to the world and John epitomizes that scripture in my heart. Even his failures have taught me many good lessons.
I've heard a lot of people say a lot of bad things about John
but the worst things I have heard straight from John's mouth.
The way he bares his heart is what speaking the truth in Love is all about.
( even if he can be very stubborn and opinionated!!)
I can't imagine the grief John must have felt as he wrote this letter regarding the actions of his dearest and most trusted friends.
I have been on and off board the CES ship at various times,
yet I have always been impressed with their integrity and godly love.
They have always been intent on doing what is right in the eyes of God,
and I respect that intention whole heartedly.
A few years ago my marriage was in a very distressing state.
I think the only thing my wife and I could agree on was that we trusted John Schoenheit's perspective.
John very generously gave us great attention and invested his soul into saving our family.
Yes, there was a dose of what you might call psycho-babble,
but it was all being sifted though the Word of God and our combined godly perspectives.
It was a gut wrenching process.
A lot of those " he said I had my head up my butt and it hurt my feelings" sort of things.
Praise God that we are now more happily married than ever .
I give the Almighty God the glory for this.
I recognize how He was working through Christ in each one of us
to to bring about a healthy resolution.
I am very grateful to John S. especially for the way he ministered to us.
Likewise a number of other saints of S&TF served beautifully
just the way you would want the family of God to work by 'speaking the truth in Love.'
I dare say God has wrought much more good in people's lives
though The Sprirt and Truth Fellowship
than any harm that may have come through it.
But again I will defer that determination to the Righteous Judge.
I am praying passionately that the present situation will be addressed soundly
and will serve to succour and strengthen this great association of believers
in The Sprit and Truth Fellowship.
I believe the Lord Jesus has worked to bring them to a point of being able to make a huge impact in this troubled world.
I believe the enemy is out to destroy it all.
I believe the Captain of Salvation is at work to right the ship,
'throughly furnishing them unto every good work.'
If all goes well with them, then it will all go well with us
for we are all truely united together in Christ and His Redeeming Love.
...And I am praying for you, dear reader...
I can feel the pain of old wounds as I read some of your posts
and pray the Good Shepherd of your soul
will come alongside you
and minister to your heart
as only he can do.
( which is usually through broken saints)
I was wondering why you are here at the Grease Spot at all.
I believe that it is because you've had times experiencing
the touch of the Master's hand upon your heart
as you listened to the Word of Truth
being expressed by a gifted teacher in Christ,
I believe your heart yearns for more of those encounters with Christ,
in the fellowship of the Saints in Light,
and Christ Jesus surely yearns for more of them with you too.
Maybe that minister was Dr Victor Paul Weirwille, or Craig Martindale,
or John Lynn, or Mark Graeser;
or all of them and many others of the same kind at various times.
and then maybe one of them let you down and caused you pain.
betrayed your trust
it's the sincere ones that can really get you, you know.
They're all covered with flesh ,
just like you and me.
Welcome to the Family of God !!
Through it all you are and will always be
the Apple of The Father's Eye,
and He is already at work to tend to your every need
and has your road to Glory all mapped out.
Believe It
I once told John Lynn ( in the middle of a very agitated disagreement !)
that I would fight for him just like I do for Dr. Weirwille.
and that is what I have endeavored to do just now.
with a heart that is open like a sunflower to the sun
I conclude by saying
God Bless You
I Love You
You Are the Best
(because God made you that way in Christ)
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Tom Strange
Well 'Estimated Prophet' you're certainly allowed your views and opinions.
I come here to connect with old friends and those that have cult experience in common with me.
As to all of the other things you shared, I believe God gave us eyes to see and ears to hear and brains to use...
so we would know when we were being taken down the wrong path... again...
so that we could formulate our own opinions and speak them rather than our favorite phrases that we heard..
and that God also gave us the good sense to not continue to follow those who have led us down those wrong paths...
Peace to you as well.
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satori001
Estimated Prophet? Did you mean to call yourself "esteemed prophet?" "Estimable prophet?" What is an estimated prophet? What are you telling us about yourself?
--
You've joined the Greasespot Chorale Internationale singing a familiar refrain, a favorite old chestnut known as, among other things, the "baby & bathwater" routine. Speaking of babies, someone here named "oldiesman" will probably want to have your baby, if it were only possible. Be very thankful it is not.
Among the countless seekers who bounce from movement to movement, a few will find a shepherd they like and join the flock (which I'd say is possibly more like a harem). They assign a cosmic, transcendant validity to their artful shepherds, and Shazzam! Consensual mind control - acquiescence and accommodation. They move their mouths, their lips, their tongues - suddenly the "leader" can order a lousy pizza, and it's as if every nuance is animated by the Holy Spirit. This is a form of infatuation. Unhealthy obsession. EP, I can't know the circumstances of your life, but from my corner of the universe, you appear to have found your comfort zone.
Cults like CES, dysfunctional meta-tribes (i.e., viral-belief-centered associations ), can't accommodate everyone. The more specialized they are, the more discriminating. Narrowing the faith down to a single and rigorous interpretation of Christian dogma, and to the few personalities authorized to interpret, makes CES' appeal highly selective.
A "viral" (contagious) belief system requires a compatibly complicit host. That's why most of us can't join you. We caught the TWI virus, and we recovered. What strengthened our own immune systems has compromised others, like (I suggest) your own. You are a reasonably good host, and most of us are not.
Please understand I do not reject Jesus Christ because I reject CES. I reject CES because, though I know much less of them than you must, I know more than enough.
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therebutforgrace
Hi Estimated Prophet,
Welcome to GreaseSpot.
I first came to the Cafe when I was told someone placed here the "prophecies" given to JAL and his wife, and her subsequent letter to him. I've known of errors in CES for years and was sorry to see them become this public, but glad to see that perhaps they therefore might end.
We all screw up in life. That's why we need a Savior.
The difference is that some folks ask for the job of Christian leadership ...and the Word seems to say that they are held to a higher standard. Certainly their errors can affect more people than might yours and mine. Whether the errors were intentional or not is irrelevant. They simply must be stopped ==quickly== in order to limit the carnage of innocents who trusted them.
(Newcomer, that's what I mean by headlines. Not headlines in the media world, but headlines in our world of 1000s of folks we've loved/met/known/heard of in TWI and beyond.)
Because I love the CES folks I stand firmly for their total stripping of error. Legalism, pride, elitism, psycho-babble, all of this and more. All that there is. All the leaven. All. Just as I hope they would stand for if they saw the same in my life. My friends and family have been adversely affected by lies these folks have believed and therefore I will continue to stand so that others will not be!
I cannot make anyone think or do anything. But real love does not ignore mediocrity in friends who love excellence, ungodliness in family who love godliness, evil in brothers/sisters in Christ who love good.
Welcome to GSC.
Grace
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sprawled out
deeeeeeeeeerail:
i've had a problem with this premise for a long time. isn't christianity designed for people? (who else?) why is it that our flesh--the stuff all people are made of--is precisely the thing that make practicing christianity so difficult? isn't that the Catch-22 of all Catch-22s? it's like saying "I've designed the perfect automobile fuel. any car that runs on it will get unheard-of mileage and performance. only trouble is, it really doesn't work that well in internal combustion engines."
is God an idiot? would he really design the ultimate system for optimal human functioning so that it would work perfectly if we weren't human? personally, i think it's just part of the con to keep you coming back: "this is real hard to do, so you'd better stick close to us. otherwise, you've got no hope at all."
by the way, that's an interesting choice of names, prophet:
My time coming, any day, dont worry about me, no
Its gonna be just like they say, them voices tell me so
Seems so long I felt this way and time sure passin slow
Still I know I lead the way, they tell me where I go.
Estimated Prophet (The Grateful Dead)
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T-Bone
Welcome to GSC, Estimated Prophet. I lean towards the notion that the office of an Apostle was something conferred on the individually personally by Jesus Christ with one of the qualifying factors being that the person had actually seen the resurrected Christ – and that the office may not have been necessary after the newly formed church was established – and from what I understand the biblical definition of an Apostle is different than the way VPW described it.
…As far as John L being a Teacher – that's something I seriously take issue on. I recall in one of his letters to followers of his group – talking about how as former followers of TWI they are like the Israelites of old escaping the bondage of Egypt but taking with them all the gold – implying they've got all that wonderful rightly-divided Word and doctrinal truth from TWI – but are going to do things differently! I tend to view him as more of a great salesman – it doesn't matter what product he's selling – he'll get it moving off the shelves for sure!
…I personally think any former leader in a cult has ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS starting their own ministry! Gee whiz – the Apostle Paul took quite awhile re-building his theology after Jesus Christ knocked him off his high horse – who knows how long – some commentaries put it at between 3 and 14 years. I've got nothing personal against John L or anyone that's started offshoots from TWI – and I'm not accusing them of any evil practices. I'm just asking WHAT qualifies them to lead anybody? They can have the best intentions in the world, immaculate personal integrity – but I KNOW from personal experience that will not help one iota. How so? I went through TWI's leadership training program the Way Corps. I always put TWI ahead of everything in my life thinking I was serving God and NEVER committed adultery – though unbeknownst to me at the time I'm working for a self-serving outfit with upper management having a free-for-all targeting/sexually molesting women…even with the grand poobah himself [VPW]– the dude with all five gift ministries and a girl at every bus station flaunting his immorality right under our noses by occasionally showing the Corps his favorite doggie/women porn video!..Yeah - marvelous leadership training program - really builds chracter and enables you to seperate truth from error. And wasn't John L a Corps Coordinator for awhile? What a great program the Way Corps is - screwing up preparing people to screw up to lead other people.
…I'll tell yah what. The devil doesn't have to waste any energy destroying some TWI-offshoots. Somebody needs to save them from themselves! Egad!!!! Reading all this mess with CES – I just shake my head. What do you expect? Let's check in with Prophet Foxworthy: If your plan and process of operation are similar to TWI's – you might be a chip off the old cult. If your doctrinal assumptions are similar to TWI's - you might be a chip off the old cult. If you think the devil is on the attack every time followers start arguing amongst themselves – you might be a chip off the old cult. If you consider your presumed enlightenment of the Scriptures will have an enormous impact on the rest of us poor dullards – you might be a chip off the old cult. And if you think your top leadership has a direct line to God Himself and that they are the next best thing to Christ on a stick and for all intents and purposes should act as THE GOVERNING AUTHORITY for all church matters - you definitely are a chip off the old cult…Of course that's just the opinion of Prophet Foxworthy and he may be wrong.
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waterbuffalo
ROFLMAO, T-Bone!!!
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WordWolf
[WordWolf once again in brackets and boldface.]
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Tom Strange
gosh TBone... how'd you learn to write all fancy like that? (you know, in different colors)
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T-Bone
I don’t know, Tom – I honestly don’t know…guess the spirit works in mysterious ways in mysterious people…probably varies from person to person…Yah know…one person may get so upset at the web of deceit they find in another individual that spiders just come a crawling out their noseballs…Me? I guess I get all hep – so to speak – all shook – and poof – there’s red ink in my post.
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doojable
Red......hmmmm that reminds me.....
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Estimated Prophet
Hello All
( not just 'most' but All who call upon Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior)
Thanks for the thoughtful feedback.
Not nearly as unpleasent as I had feared.
Yes, the name Estimated Prophet says something about me.
A. I am a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration who miss-spells words some times.
B. I believe I have the God Given ability to bring forth a word of prophesy...etc....
C. I am a huge fan of the Grateful Dead. ( kudos Sprawled Out )
D. All of the above
I said what I believed needed saying as well as I could.
I took time to consider what I wanted to say and what I did not want to say.
This is a heavy matter that goes deep in my heart.
Tonight is much more off the cuff.
I hear what you're saying as well,
and most of your concerns do need to be addressed
and I believe are being addressed.
Hebrews 12:25-29 hits the mark, in my estimation.
Our God is a Consuming Fire
I don't care to get into a discussion on specific detatils
such as what makes someone a prophet or apostle,
or what exactly is wrong with the flesh .
Not that I wouldn't love to, but I type slow.
I've been burned and insulted too.
I prefer to forgive it and move on.
There is a Messianic Jew who is a gifted teacher I like to listen to
who is also a chiropracter.
He says that there are at least a hundred different ways to fall down,
but only one way to stand up straight.
I like that
He also told me,
to my face in public,
that I am going to go to hell for not believing that Jesus is God the Son.
I didn't like that.
The biblical education I have received, primarily from the Way and then from CES,
as well as scores of other Christian Ministers enabled me to go to the bible
to see if I was going to hell or not.
I don't need to base my faith on the misguided ( though sincere)
declarations of a gifted speaker.
He and I did go to the bible together, but I found him entirely unreasonable about the trinity
The point is that not everything an apostle or a prophet or a teacher says and does is always going to be true.
Just because they are bound by a stronghold of deceit in one area or another does not prevent the Christ within them from manifesting himself.
I like when that happens.
I love all Christian ministry.
Like it or not, my faith is more at home with S&T than in any other church I've come across,
but it's not exactly a comfort zone.
I just believe Jesus Christ is able to purify his people to be zealous for Good works,
and the folks at S&T are all in favor of that as well.
God is working good things in His people all the time !
I love that the Catholic Church that I grew up in
had standing room only on Ash Wednesday last April.
Unbelievable!!
It wasn't because the Catholics are holding fast to the rightly divided Word.
There's all sorts of psyco-babble in their catecisms still.
It wasn't because the Catholics have done such a tremendous job of
squelching the abusive ways of some of their leaders.
St John's Church had standing room only on a Wednesday
because Father Steve is truely walking in the gift of God's Grace and Love
the best way he knows how.
and the people are being touched by the Master's Hand.
I've seen it.
John Lynn and John S and Mark G might have waited until they got it all straight in their hearts,
but I know they saw lots of sheep with no shepherd and wanted to do something to help.
All things considred,
they've done a remarkable job.
Now they need our love and support and prayers
and the words of reconciliation that we have been entrusted with.
Healthy criticsm too.
Say what you believe needs saying...
just say it with genuine love in Christ.
Peace and Love
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