I agree with Trust and obey. If God is as good as Christians claim He is, why wouldn't we want him in control? While I don't understand the whole dynamics of this whole debate, I'm more comfortable with the Lord owning everything in the world and casting my lot with him rather than giving credit to the other guy.
I have heard many christians say things like "if the Lord will is... and if God wants me to be directed in the path of.. etc.
My God made LIFE He created humans, but not for play things to have a relationship with... God wants people to worship HIM.
so it is a choice if there was not an alternitive no choice would be "available".
Life is so different for so many that worship God how can anyone think God is LOVE and say He decides whether the drama and tradegy that takes place everyday belong in His reign?
no simple human undrstand that isnt a LOVE they would need or want to worship.
Humans chose to worship or not and how and when and whom and life is full of choices and learning what it is. Jesus christ was murdered for a reason and the reason is for us to understand God because we have failed so miserably at it for so long God gave us His only only begotten son as a sacrafrice for our inabiity to make the choices He knows we should make to be safe and to worship HIM and love one another .
it is a choice , life or death > Jesus christ was raised fropm death do we chose to believe it>?
Just thought since we are talking about their "personal prophecy" tid bit.. How about another doctrine they teach.... Like God NOT being in control.. Who outside of CES has ever heard a Christian state that?
TAO --- From what I know, CES got hold of a book by John Sanders called:
The God Who Risks, and promoted it back around 1999, or 2000 (thereabouts).
JAL did a tape teaching on it (at least the basic premise thereof), in Dec. 1999.
Mark G. *expounded* on the philosophy in their next two tapes after that.
As with all things of this nature -- there were both good and bad points offered.
As far as I am concerned -- the jury is still out on this one.
Personally -- I think the *answer* is somewhere in the middle.
I bought the book The God Who Risks, but never completely finished reading it.
What I did read was an eye-opening/ thought provoker to me,
but evidently this *theology* has the support of other christian organizations as well.
CES found it, looked at it, and then promoted it.
I haven't a clue as to how long this was *researched*.
(My imo)
I'm not condoning, or condemning CES for it.
Nor am I gonna believe it --
just because CES tosses it on the dinner table to chew on and digest.
Since it seems things are getting out of hand, thought this might lighten things up (maybe not, but at least I'm trying ) One of the primary signs of impending doom, imnsho, is the loss of one's sense of humor. You can print this out and send it to
God's Total Quality Management Questionnaire
by Harpreet Sandhu
God would like to thank you for your belief and patronage. In order to better serve your needs, (S)He asks that you take a few moments to answer the following questions:
1. How did you find out about your deity?
__ Newspaper
__ Bible
__ Torah
__ Koran
__ Television
__ Book of Mormon
__ Divine Inspiration
__ Dead Sea Scrolls
__ My Mama Done Tol' Me
__ Near Death Experience
__ Near Life Experience
__ National Public Radio
__ Tabloid
__ Burning Shrubbery
__ Looked at Someone's "Book of Shadows"
__ Other (specify): _____________
2. Which model deity did you acquire?
__ Jehovah
__ Jesus
__ Krishna
__ Father, Son & Holy Ghost [Trinity Pak]
__ Zeus and entourage [Olympus Pak]
__ Odin and entourage [Valhalla Pak]
__ Allah
__ Satan
__ Gaia/Mother Earth/Mother Nature
__ God 1.0a (Hairy Thunderer)
__ God 1.0b (Cosmic Muffin)
__ None of the above, I was taken in by a false god
3. Did your God come to you undamaged, with all parts in good working order and with no obvious breakage or missing attributes?
__ Yes
__ No
If no, please describe the problems you initially encountered here. Please indicate all that apply:
__ Not eternal
__ Finite in space/Does not occupy or inhabit the entire cosmos
__ Not omniscient
__ Not omnipotent
__ Not infinitely plastic (incapable of being all things to all creations)
__ Permits sex outside of marriage
__ Prohibits sex outside of marriage
__ Makes mistakes
__ Makes or permits bad things to happen to good people
__ Makes or permits good things to happen to bad people
__ Looks after life other than that on Earth
__ When beseeched, doesn't stay beseeched
__ Requires burnt offerings
__ Requires virgin sacrifices
4. What factors were relevant in your decision to acquire a deity? Please check all that apply.
__ Indoctrinated by parents
__ Needed a reason to live
__ Indoctrinated by society
__ Needed focus in whom to despise
__ Needed focus in whom to love
__ Imaginary friend grew up
__ Hate to think for myself
__ Wanted to meet girls/boys in church
__ Fear of death
__ Wanted to .... off parents
__ Wanted to please parents
__ Needed a day away from school or work
__ Desperate need for certainty
__ Like organ music
__ Need to feel morally superior
__ Thought Jerry Falwell was cool
__ Thought there had to be something other than Jerry Falwell
__ @#%$ was falling out of the sky
__ My shrubbery caught fire and told me to do it
5. Have you ever worshipped a deity before? If so, which false god were you fooled by? Please check all that apply.
__ Baal
__ The Almighty Dollar
__ Left Wing Liberalism
__ The Radical Right
__ Amon Ra
__ Beelzebub
__ Bill Gates
__ Barney The Big Purple Dinosaur
__ The Great Spirit
__ The Great Pumpkin
__ The Sun
__ The Moon
__ The Force
__ Cindy Crawford
__ Elvis
__ A burning shrub
__ Psychiatry
__ Other: ________________
6. Are you currently using any other source of inspiration in addition to God?
Please check all that apply.
__ Tarot
__ Lottery
__ Astrology
__ Television
__ Computers
__ Fortune cookies
__ Ann Landers
__ Psychic Friends Network
__ Dianetics
__ Palmistry
__ Playboy and/or Playgirl
__ Self-help books
__ Sex, drugs, and rock & roll
__ Biorhythms
__ Alcohol
__ Marijuana
__ Bill Clinton
__ Tea Leaves
__ EST
__ Amway
__ CompuServe
__ MSN
__ AOL
__ Mantras
__ Jimmy Swaggert
__ Crystals
__ Human sacrifice
__ Pyramids
__ Wandering around a desert
__ Insurance policies
__ Burning shrubbery
__ Barney T.B.P.D.
__ Barney Fife
__ Other:_____________________
__ None
7. God reputedly employs a limited degree of Divine Intervention to preserve
a balanced level of felt presence and blind faith. Which would you prefer? Circle one below:
a. More Divine Intervention
b. Less Divine Intervention
c. Current level of Divine Intervention is just right
d. Don't know.
e. What's Divine Intervention?
8. God also reputedly attempts to maintain a balanced level of disasters and miracles. Please rate on a scale of 1 - 5 your opinion of the handling of the following (1 =unsatisfactory, 5 = excellent):
9. From time to time God reputedly makes available the names and addresses of Her/His followers and devotees to selected reputedly divine personages who provide quality services and perform intercessions in His behalf. Are you interested in a compilation of listed offerings?
__ Yes, please deluge me with religious zealots for the benefit of my own mortal soul
__ No, I do not wish to be inundated by religious fanatics clamouring for my money
10. Do you have any additional comments or suggestions for improving the quality of God's services? (Attach an additional sheet if necessary.)
Most Christians I talk to that use the term, "God is in control" or some variant of it usually mean that ultimately His Will is what is going to come to pass at some final point. In daily practice, they use this as part of "take no thought for the morrow" and that "all things work together for good to them that love God" even if they don't see and understand at the time how it could work that way like when they're going through something hard. Obviously there will be some that take it ridiculously too far theologically, like every thought controlled by God - but that is absolutely not how people I know use the term, if they even say it at all.
Within CES however, from my very first experiences, this term, "God is in control" as well as the whole "don't blame God / blaming God" concept and, "God use me" are still used to speak disparagingly of the 'mainstream church' and sometimes some funnier ones like when there was some big issue about people in CES leadership not liking the Mercy Me song, "I can only imagine." There was some big issue that the song was 'typical mainstream church' and off doctrinally, but what finally came out was that those people had misundertood the lyrics. When I hear people say, "God use me" they are not asking for the CARTOON PARODY that TWI used to present of the mainstream church, that they turn their mind control over to God (like people did with VP) but what they are actually asking for instead is that God redeem their talents and time for HIMself, illuminate their hearts and lead them in the paths of righteousness. That's a WONDERFUL thing to want - why in the world would someone try to parse words with that sentiment and ridicule a heartfelt attempt to walk according to HIS WILL?
These kinds of things helped keep CES at a distance for me because I'm not looking for a 'total package' that's outside the body of Christ, that mocks and judges the rest of the church, the people that Christ has called to his body. Those things always seem to get brought up in a divisive way - just sounded too 'TWI - we got the only true doctrine' to me.
www.truthortradition.com even says, "This website is dedicated to helping you understand the Word of God, free from the traditions of men." Assuming you're not introducing your own traditions even as you say that, it's great to try and teach the Word of God plain and true, but to position it as 'free from the traditions of men' sounds like a red-flag heart issue. And what's really funny is how much reference material is used by CES people from MAINSTREAM CHURCH. It just seems like maybe a bad idea for an organization to have a tag line that sounds like it's picking a fight with the rest of God's kids. Obviously God is WORKING in a LOT OF OTHER PLACES, and inspiring other people to write books too. Many people don't need to be 'rescued' from church, as some are actually blessed there; fellowshipping, praying, worshipping God, doing works of service, mission trips, feeding the poor, etc etc etc.
The problem with CES being so gosh darned dogmatic about their doctrine is that they know personally that they've been wrong before. They are claiming an understanding of things that other spirit filled believers continue to debate as well, and opinions will probably continue to change as new information comes out. There is a reason that people in the church have debated these issues for so long. So sure, it's great to have a strong opinion, sometimes even to be dogmatic, but it's not ok to use some headknowledge that could be wrong to divide the church and couch it with, 'sincere and well meaning Christians often say..." Everyone knows that 'sincere and well meaning' is a euphemism for 'ignorant and uninformed.' If you want to teach YOUR opinion on the Bible, just TEACH IT. There is no value in teaching everything as a contrast to the error of everyone else.
This article below is one of the supporting articles about whether or not God is 'in control.'
The conclusion is that He's not, He's just really darned good at predicting things because He knows everything about the past and the present, but that even with Abraham, He didn't really 'KNOW' what Abraham would do until Gen 22:12 when He says, "NOW I know." Up until then, they say, He only had a really good guess.
This argument is supposed to support the 'conditional' nature of prophecy, but what is really means is that there's a chance, even if very small, that God is WRONG about the future. In the above example it means that God 'could have' been wrong about Abraham. You can't have it both ways, either He knows or He doesn't - you can't hedge your bet by saying He has such a high probability of being right that He has an infinite improbability of being wrong, because then He could still actually be wrong, wrong about the future, wrong about our salvation, etc. Do you think this is the God of the Bible, the Almighty Creator, that He could be wrong? If He knows so much that He's always going to be right - then who cares? Does this really impact our daily walk?
Maybe the devil believes there's a chance God could be wrong and lose. Maybe that's why he continues to rebel and fight? That if he gets enough support, he could actually overthrow God? Is he right? Is God just a really good guesser but ultimately fallible with a chink in His armor that the devil with a spiritual army can exploit? I don't believe it for a nano-second. If we believe He created the whole shootin' match, including the spirit beings, why wouldn't we believe that He could just PULL THE PLUG? Does this not make Him ultimately IN CONTROL?
Certainly people are welcome to believe in this kind of doctrine, and who knows, in some way they may be right - but to spend our lives creating division to argue things we cannot ultimately know in order to satify our 'logical minds' seems carnal at best. I don't see examples of Jesus teaching this way. Jesus taught mainly through metaphor and parables because often that is how REALITY is best explained. Just like the old PFAL, saying the ground is 'thirsty' is somehow more true that trying to figure out exactly how dry it is. If anyone could have illustrated to the infinite degree it would have been Jesus, so why didn't he?
Should have made it clear that my point was not really refuting a previous post as much as ranting - I think I'm more agreeing with Caribousam than not - it's a matter of semantics. I think it's VERY important to understand where people are coming from before I try to tell them they're wrong, especially the 'body of Christ at large' where God's work is really evident when I stop and take the time to look.
Then secondarily, even if I think they ARE wrong, it's important to understand the value of trying to correct them. Like what is my real motivation, my heart. And what does GOD have to say about it? I think when I left TWI my mindset would have been to walk into a church wearing a t-shirt that said, "the trinity is stupid, you're an idiot, and let me teach you the truth." I wonder why I changed so few lives (!). But God is the author of mercy and grace so I'm actually starting to 'get it' a little better, it's actually GOD at work redeeming the world back to Himself, and I'd be careful sometimes to stay out of the way.
"Go out today and preach the gospel... and if you must, use words." - St. Francis
I happen to prefer to look at 'what sows life' versus 'what sows death', but nonetheless, 'right' and 'wrong' do exist...
But I applied the comment to any subject matter...not just a spiritual one....and it reminded me to think of the OTHER person, not just me and to use wisdom when I speak about any situation, whether I thin kit's objective and obvious or subjective and not so obvious.......
Maybe it's none of my business...maybe I'm not the one to correct them....maybe a slight addition to their view let's them see more clearly...maybe you yank their neck to get 'em outta the way of a train.....anyway, that's how I took it :)
hi sushi - i guess even using homer simpson for my avatar doesn't communicate the sarcasm in my typing - but that was the point. it is very arrogant to assume that if something looks different then God is not working. that was the point of that whole post, that if I see something different in another church, like people using the phrase, "God is in control" (the context of this thread) - they are often not ~wrong~ at all, just communicating differently, which I see when I stop and take the time to look.
I think it's VERY important to understand where people are coming from before I try to tell them they're wrong, especially the 'body of Christ at large' where God's work is really evident when I stop and take the time to look.
Then secondarily, even if I think they ARE wrong, it's important to understand the value of trying to correct them. Like what is my real motivation, my heart. And what does GOD have to say about it? I think when I left TWI my mindset would have been to walk into a church wearing a t-shirt that said, "the trinity is stupid, you're an idiot, and let me teach you the truth." I wonder why I changed so few lives (!). But God is the author of mercy and grace so I'm actually starting to 'get it' a little better, it's actually GOD at work redeeming the world back to Himself, and I'd be careful sometimes to stay out of the way.
"Go out today and preach the gospel... and if you must, use words." - St. Francis
I will say though that in the context of this whole "CES is in a mess" I will gladly say I think people are wrong, and out of line and hurting each other, and misusing the Bible and the prophetic.
As you above are telling me I may be wrong, I think there are certainly times to say it.
no problemo. actually would like it brought up if you see a wee bit a the ole' irish in my rantings - just want to make sure it was clearly understood first.
'the beatings will continue until the morale improves.'
I couldn't help reading your thoughts on "Is God in Control". And of course as would have it, I need to add my 5 cents worth.
Faith, Trust, Believing etc. is what opens the door for God to move in your life. If God was in control then just getting Born Again or Saved would be all that is required. Because God would do the rest, RIGHT?
If God is truly in control then it would have to be his way RIGHT?
Free Will means Free Choice. And even well intentioned christians can't always get it right. We can still break fellowship with the Father and his son Jesus Christ. And it can cost us our lives at times too!!!
If God was in control and christians were allowed to die, then that would "by association" make him "God" a murderer.
If God was in control then why did he create Adam and then let him screw all of creation up. And why would he create Lucifer and then let him punish his creation for thousands of years. That to me just takes the wind out of " For God so loved the world" doesn't it. How can you love and then kill and destroy all in the same breathe.
Do you think God has a God complex? Do you think he has to prove himself, thereby creating and killing to show he can?
I don't think so. My God does not have robots worshiping him. We by our choice do so lovingly.
God responds to us according to how we reply to his wants.
I John 3:22 and receive from him anything we ask, becuase we obey his commands and do what pleases him. NIV
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
We have to go to God. We make requests of God and hopefully he responds by granting our request. But if he was in control then what would be the need of prayer? If God was in control then all the bad things that have ever happened would be his fault for allowing them to happen. Do you see were God needs us. God doesn't use us. And to say He is in control also implies He does use us. I am not possessed by God. I have been given His spirit and can use the 9 manifestations of that spirit anytime that I choose.
Does any of this make since? I sure do pray it does.
I couldn't help reading your thoughts on "Is God in Control". And of course as would have it, I need to add my 5 cents worth.
Faith, Trust, Believing etc. is what opens the door for God to move in your life. If God was in control then just getting Born Again or Saved would be all that is required. Because God would do the rest, RIGHT?
If God is truly in control then it would have to be his way RIGHT?
decatt,
I don't have much time to answer a lot on this at this time. But something to think about..
As others have already pointed out. It all goes back to what you mean by "in control'.
The dictionary defines it as: "to exercise authoritative control or power over; "control the budget"; "Command the military forces"
And that is more or less the definition I use. But the way I use the term "in control" wouldn't necessarily equate to "controlling someone or something". One can be "in control" i.e. have power over another and in a position of power over another, without controlling them i.e. manipulating and moving them around as a board piece incapable of it making it's own movements.
So if looked at in that light, God is in control in that he does have power over us. Unless one were to disgree with Romans 13 which states that there is no power but of God, and the powers that be are ordained of God. I'm well aware of how TWI and others try and slant that verse to only being about religious ministers, however I think it is much more overarching.
God commanded the light out of darkness. He made the waters and the seas and all there is on this earth and the heavens above. So to say he doesn't have the power over us would be to diminish the power God has.
However if one were to mean by God being "in control" that it means he is controlling or controls you (which I might add is not the NORMAL use for the phrase "to be in control" in the English language) then of course I'd agree with you wholeheartedly.
The problem I see mostly is that when one starts saying things such as God not being in control, the first thing most of the English speaking population would think is that you are saying God is limited. He is not all powerful, or all knowing, or everywhere present. However the scriptures do say that there is no power but of God, it does say he knew us before the foundations, it does say that in him we live and move and have our being.
To me, and please note I'm just saying in my humble opinion which is not Thus sayeth the Lord, but the phrase God is not control wreaks of Deism. A God that is no longer capable or actively handling the affairs of this world.
It is doctrines like Deism that lead people to stop trusting God, and instead turn to trusting in our five senses and in ourselves or others, something the scriptures speak completely against. Why would I want to pray to God if per chance he is incapable of meeting my request? Why trust in God if he has not the power to help? Why rest in God for our eternal security when he might not have the werewithal to actually save us in the end because he might miss a step or underestimate his enemies or not be even be capable?
I mean, since when did the word God not mean GOD! And I don't mean the English word. I mean the original Hebrew word which meant THE ONE WHO HAS GREAT POWER AND AUTHORITY OVER OTHERS! Go figure, the exact dictionary definition of the word 'control'.
True, it may be all in how you define the terms. But I feel it is always best to define them the way it is used mostly in this day and time and at the same time doesn't have any negative connotation to the one who created this world, gave us life, and in the end shall deliver us from this mortal body.
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oldiesman
If God was in control of everything in the here and now, then I suppose he can be blamed for every evil that happens.
That's why I don't think he is, among other reasons.
In the new heavens and earth he will be.
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washingtonweather
for once I agree with oldies.
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soulsurfer
I agree with Trust and obey. If God is as good as Christians claim He is, why wouldn't we want him in control? While I don't understand the whole dynamics of this whole debate, I'm more comfortable with the Lord owning everything in the world and casting my lot with him rather than giving credit to the other guy.
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washingtonweather
ok-- I can see some consensus of the definition of "control" is needed.
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Sushi
Yeah, you HAVE to get an ironclad contract with that guy. He has a tendency to 'slither' out of given word.
That's why I'm in Michigan.
What he doesn't know though, I got the better end of the deal. nanananana
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pond
It is frightening to think God isnt in control.
I have heard many christians say things like "if the Lord will is... and if God wants me to be directed in the path of.. etc.
My God made LIFE He created humans, but not for play things to have a relationship with... God wants people to worship HIM.
so it is a choice if there was not an alternitive no choice would be "available".
Life is so different for so many that worship God how can anyone think God is LOVE and say He decides whether the drama and tradegy that takes place everyday belong in His reign?
no simple human undrstand that isnt a LOVE they would need or want to worship.
Humans chose to worship or not and how and when and whom and life is full of choices and learning what it is. Jesus christ was murdered for a reason and the reason is for us to understand God because we have failed so miserably at it for so long God gave us His only only begotten son as a sacrafrice for our inabiity to make the choices He knows we should make to be safe and to worship HIM and love one another .
it is a choice , life or death > Jesus christ was raised fropm death do we chose to believe it>?
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dmiller
TAO --- From what I know, CES got hold of a book by John Sanders called:
The God Who Risks, and promoted it back around 1999, or 2000 (thereabouts).
JAL did a tape teaching on it (at least the basic premise thereof), in Dec. 1999.
Mark G. *expounded* on the philosophy in their next two tapes after that.
As with all things of this nature -- there were both good and bad points offered.
As far as I am concerned -- the jury is still out on this one.
Personally -- I think the *answer* is somewhere in the middle.
I bought the book The God Who Risks, but never completely finished reading it.
What I did read was an eye-opening/ thought provoker to me,
but evidently this *theology* has the support of other christian organizations as well.
CES found it, looked at it, and then promoted it.
I haven't a clue as to how long this was *researched*.
(My imo)
I'm not condoning, or condemning CES for it.
Nor am I gonna believe it --
just because CES tosses it on the dinner table to chew on and digest.
As I said -- still mulling it over in my mind.
But that's just me. :)
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dmiller
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Sushi
Since it seems things are getting out of hand, thought this might lighten things up (maybe not, but at least I'm trying
) One of the primary signs of impending doom, imnsho, is the loss of one's sense of humor. You can print this out and send it to
God's Total Quality Management Questionnaire
by Harpreet Sandhu
God would like to thank you for your belief and patronage. In order to better serve your needs, (S)He asks that you take a few moments to answer the following questions:
1. How did you find out about your deity?
__ Newspaper
__ Bible
__ Torah
__ Koran
__ Television
__ Book of Mormon
__ Divine Inspiration
__ Dead Sea Scrolls
__ My Mama Done Tol' Me
__ Near Death Experience
__ Near Life Experience
__ National Public Radio
__ Tabloid
__ Burning Shrubbery
__ Looked at Someone's "Book of Shadows"
__ Other (specify): _____________
2. Which model deity did you acquire?
__ Jehovah
__ Jesus
__ Krishna
__ Father, Son & Holy Ghost [Trinity Pak]
__ Zeus and entourage [Olympus Pak]
__ Odin and entourage [Valhalla Pak]
__ Allah
__ Satan
__ Gaia/Mother Earth/Mother Nature
__ God 1.0a (Hairy Thunderer)
__ God 1.0b (Cosmic Muffin)
__ None of the above, I was taken in by a false god
3. Did your God come to you undamaged, with all parts in good working order and with no obvious breakage or missing attributes?
__ Yes
__ No
If no, please describe the problems you initially encountered here. Please indicate all that apply:
__ Not eternal
__ Finite in space/Does not occupy or inhabit the entire cosmos
__ Not omniscient
__ Not omnipotent
__ Not infinitely plastic (incapable of being all things to all creations)
__ Permits sex outside of marriage
__ Prohibits sex outside of marriage
__ Makes mistakes
__ Makes or permits bad things to happen to good people
__ Makes or permits good things to happen to bad people
__ Looks after life other than that on Earth
__ When beseeched, doesn't stay beseeched
__ Requires burnt offerings
__ Requires virgin sacrifices
4. What factors were relevant in your decision to acquire a deity? Please check all that apply.
__ Indoctrinated by parents
__ Needed a reason to live
__ Indoctrinated by society
__ Needed focus in whom to despise
__ Needed focus in whom to love
__ Imaginary friend grew up
__ Hate to think for myself
__ Wanted to meet girls/boys in church
__ Fear of death
__ Wanted to .... off parents
__ Wanted to please parents
__ Needed a day away from school or work
__ Desperate need for certainty
__ Like organ music
__ Need to feel morally superior
__ Thought Jerry Falwell was cool
__ Thought there had to be something other than Jerry Falwell
__ @#%$ was falling out of the sky
__ My shrubbery caught fire and told me to do it
5. Have you ever worshipped a deity before? If so, which false god were you fooled by? Please check all that apply.
__ Baal
__ The Almighty Dollar
__ Left Wing Liberalism
__ The Radical Right
__ Amon Ra
__ Beelzebub
__ Bill Gates
__ Barney The Big Purple Dinosaur
__ The Great Spirit
__ The Great Pumpkin
__ The Sun
__ The Moon
__ The Force
__ Cindy Crawford
__ Elvis
__ A burning shrub
__ Psychiatry
__ Other: ________________
6. Are you currently using any other source of inspiration in addition to God?
Please check all that apply.
__ Tarot
__ Lottery
__ Astrology
__ Television
__ Computers
__ Fortune cookies
__ Ann Landers
__ Psychic Friends Network
__ Dianetics
__ Palmistry
__ Playboy and/or Playgirl
__ Self-help books
__ Sex, drugs, and rock & roll
__ Biorhythms
__ Alcohol
__ Marijuana
__ Bill Clinton
__ Tea Leaves
__ EST
__ Amway
__ CompuServe
__ MSN
__ AOL
__ Mantras
__ Jimmy Swaggert
__ Crystals
__ Human sacrifice
__ Pyramids
__ Wandering around a desert
__ Insurance policies
__ Burning shrubbery
__ Barney T.B.P.D.
__ Barney Fife
__ Other:_____________________
__ None
7. God reputedly employs a limited degree of Divine Intervention to preserve
a balanced level of felt presence and blind faith. Which would you prefer? Circle one below:
a. More Divine Intervention
b. Less Divine Intervention
c. Current level of Divine Intervention is just right
d. Don't know.
e. What's Divine Intervention?
8. God also reputedly attempts to maintain a balanced level of disasters and miracles. Please rate on a scale of 1 - 5 your opinion of the handling of the following (1 =unsatisfactory, 5 = excellent):
a. Disasters:
1 2 3 4 5 flood
1 2 3 4 5 famine
1 2 3 4 5 earthquake
1 2 3 4 5 war & holocausts
1 2 3 4 5 pestilence
1 2 3 4 5 plague
1 2 3 4 5 Spam
1 2 3 4 5 AOL
b. Miracles:
1 2 3 4 5 rescues
1 2 3 4 5 spontaneous remissions
1 2 3 4 5 stars hovering over tiny towns & previously unknown hamlets
1 2 3 4 5 crying statues
1 2 3 4 5 water changing to wine
1 2 3 4 5 walking on water
1 2 3 4 5 coincidence of any sort
1 2 3 4 5 getting any sex whatsoever
9. From time to time God reputedly makes available the names and addresses of Her/His followers and devotees to selected reputedly divine personages who provide quality services and perform intercessions in His behalf. Are you interested in a compilation of listed offerings?
__ Yes, please deluge me with religious zealots for the benefit of my own mortal soul
__ No, I do not wish to be inundated by religious fanatics clamouring for my money
10. Do you have any additional comments or suggestions for improving the quality of God's services? (Attach an additional sheet if necessary.)
Hope this helps.
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oenophile
LMMAAO Sushi!!!
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caribousam
It doesn't really matter how many people outside of CES believe that God is not in control
What matters is what makes sense.
Obviously, God does not control our every action during all of our days. If so, what about
free will ? If God is in control, why bother doing anything at all? Let's just sit back and see
where God takes us.
It's partly an issue of semantics. That is - what do you mean when you say that God is in
control ?
I would say that God created the heavens and the earth, and the laws that control how it
is put together and how things work. In the human realm, there are overarching spiritual
laws that govern many aspects of our lives. Still though, we have free will to decide to do
and think good or evil. And in our time, God has given Satan a certain amount of free will
to roam the earth like a roaring lion and wreak havoc. So is God in control ? Not really.
It seems that God is a benevolent and merciful creator, not a tyrant or dictator. He's looking
for us to come to an understanding of him and by our own free wills love and obey him.
Even in the future heaven and earth I don't see any evidence that God will be controlling
our every move. That is just not the true nature of the one true God. God in control is
an urban legend.
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1broken1
Most Christians I talk to that use the term, "God is in control" or some variant of it usually mean that ultimately His Will is what is going to come to pass at some final point. In daily practice, they use this as part of "take no thought for the morrow" and that "all things work together for good to them that love God" even if they don't see and understand at the time how it could work that way like when they're going through something hard. Obviously there will be some that take it ridiculously too far theologically, like every thought controlled by God - but that is absolutely not how people I know use the term, if they even say it at all.
Within CES however, from my very first experiences, this term, "God is in control" as well as the whole "don't blame God / blaming God" concept and, "God use me" are still used to speak disparagingly of the 'mainstream church' and sometimes some funnier ones like when there was some big issue about people in CES leadership not liking the Mercy Me song, "I can only imagine." There was some big issue that the song was 'typical mainstream church' and off doctrinally, but what finally came out was that those people had misundertood the lyrics. When I hear people say, "God use me" they are not asking for the CARTOON PARODY that TWI used to present of the mainstream church, that they turn their mind control over to God (like people did with VP) but what they are actually asking for instead is that God redeem their talents and time for HIMself, illuminate their hearts and lead them in the paths of righteousness. That's a WONDERFUL thing to want - why in the world would someone try to parse words with that sentiment and ridicule a heartfelt attempt to walk according to HIS WILL?
These kinds of things helped keep CES at a distance for me because I'm not looking for a 'total package' that's outside the body of Christ, that mocks and judges the rest of the church, the people that Christ has called to his body. Those things always seem to get brought up in a divisive way - just sounded too 'TWI - we got the only true doctrine' to me.
www.truthortradition.com even says, "This website is dedicated to helping you understand the Word of God, free from the traditions of men." Assuming you're not introducing your own traditions even as you say that, it's great to try and teach the Word of God plain and true, but to position it as 'free from the traditions of men' sounds like a red-flag heart issue. And what's really funny is how much reference material is used by CES people from MAINSTREAM CHURCH. It just seems like maybe a bad idea for an organization to have a tag line that sounds like it's picking a fight with the rest of God's kids. Obviously God is WORKING in a LOT OF OTHER PLACES, and inspiring other people to write books too. Many people don't need to be 'rescued' from church, as some are actually blessed there; fellowshipping, praying, worshipping God, doing works of service, mission trips, feeding the poor, etc etc etc.
The problem with CES being so gosh darned dogmatic about their doctrine is that they know personally that they've been wrong before. They are claiming an understanding of things that other spirit filled believers continue to debate as well, and opinions will probably continue to change as new information comes out. There is a reason that people in the church have debated these issues for so long. So sure, it's great to have a strong opinion, sometimes even to be dogmatic, but it's not ok to use some headknowledge that could be wrong to divide the church and couch it with, 'sincere and well meaning Christians often say..." Everyone knows that 'sincere and well meaning' is a euphemism for 'ignorant and uninformed.' If you want to teach YOUR opinion on the Bible, just TEACH IT. There is no value in teaching everything as a contrast to the error of everyone else.
This article below is one of the supporting articles about whether or not God is 'in control.'
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.ph...icle&sid=14
The conclusion is that He's not, He's just really darned good at predicting things because He knows everything about the past and the present, but that even with Abraham, He didn't really 'KNOW' what Abraham would do until Gen 22:12 when He says, "NOW I know." Up until then, they say, He only had a really good guess.
This argument is supposed to support the 'conditional' nature of prophecy, but what is really means is that there's a chance, even if very small, that God is WRONG about the future. In the above example it means that God 'could have' been wrong about Abraham. You can't have it both ways, either He knows or He doesn't - you can't hedge your bet by saying He has such a high probability of being right that He has an infinite improbability of being wrong, because then He could still actually be wrong, wrong about the future, wrong about our salvation, etc. Do you think this is the God of the Bible, the Almighty Creator, that He could be wrong? If He knows so much that He's always going to be right - then who cares? Does this really impact our daily walk?
Maybe the devil believes there's a chance God could be wrong and lose. Maybe that's why he continues to rebel and fight? That if he gets enough support, he could actually overthrow God? Is he right? Is God just a really good guesser but ultimately fallible with a chink in His armor that the devil with a spiritual army can exploit? I don't believe it for a nano-second. If we believe He created the whole shootin' match, including the spirit beings, why wouldn't we believe that He could just PULL THE PLUG? Does this not make Him ultimately IN CONTROL?
Certainly people are welcome to believe in this kind of doctrine, and who knows, in some way they may be right - but to spend our lives creating division to argue things we cannot ultimately know in order to satify our 'logical minds' seems carnal at best. I don't see examples of Jesus teaching this way. Jesus taught mainly through metaphor and parables because often that is how REALITY is best explained. Just like the old PFAL, saying the ground is 'thirsty' is somehow more true that trying to figure out exactly how dry it is. If anyone could have illustrated to the infinite degree it would have been Jesus, so why didn't he?
I can only imagine!
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therebutforgrace
Wow,caribou and 1b1...I like hanging out with intelligent folk such as you!
Doesn't matter whether you agree or not....
Glad you're here....
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1broken1
TB4G - thank you - glad to be here.
Should have made it clear that my point was not really refuting a previous post as much as ranting - I think I'm more agreeing with Caribousam than not - it's a matter of semantics. I think it's VERY important to understand where people are coming from before I try to tell them they're wrong, especially the 'body of Christ at large' where God's work is really evident when I stop and take the time to look.
Then secondarily, even if I think they ARE wrong, it's important to understand the value of trying to correct them. Like what is my real motivation, my heart. And what does GOD have to say about it? I think when I left TWI my mindset would have been to walk into a church wearing a t-shirt that said, "the trinity is stupid, you're an idiot, and let me teach you the truth." I wonder why I changed so few lives (!). But God is the author of mercy and grace so I'm actually starting to 'get it' a little better, it's actually GOD at work redeeming the world back to Himself, and I'd be careful sometimes to stay out of the way.
"Go out today and preach the gospel... and if you must, use words." - St. Francis
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JumpinJive
Anybody else see a contradiction in that paragraph?
-JJ
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Sushi
"before I try to tell them they're wrong"
Does this strike anyone else as still being a bit arrogant?
It reminds me of THIS.
Rest assured, 1b1, I am not questioning your heart. However, to think you KNOW what God is or isn't, borders on acting like a TWIt-type person.
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therebutforgrace
Hi Sush...
Hmmmmm.....I didn't read it as arrogant...
I happen to prefer to look at 'what sows life' versus 'what sows death', but nonetheless, 'right' and 'wrong' do exist...
But I applied the comment to any subject matter...not just a spiritual one....and it reminded me to think of the OTHER person, not just me and to use wisdom when I speak about any situation, whether I thin kit's objective and obvious or subjective and not so obvious.......
Maybe it's none of my business...maybe I'm not the one to correct them....maybe a slight addition to their view let's them see more clearly...maybe you yank their neck to get 'em outta the way of a train.....anyway, that's how I took it :)
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1broken1
hi sushi - i guess even using homer simpson for my avatar doesn't communicate the sarcasm in my typing - but that was the point. it is very arrogant to assume that if something looks different then God is not working. that was the point of that whole post, that if I see something different in another church, like people using the phrase, "God is in control" (the context of this thread) - they are often not ~wrong~ at all, just communicating differently, which I see when I stop and take the time to look.
I will say though that in the context of this whole "CES is in a mess" I will gladly say I think people are wrong, and out of line and hurting each other, and misusing the Bible and the prophetic.
As you above are telling me I may be wrong, I think there are certainly times to say it.
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Sushi
My apologies, 1B1, I guess my reading comprehension has fallen a bit of late.
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1broken1
no problemo. actually would like it brought up if you see a wee bit a the ole' irish in my rantings - just want to make sure it was clearly understood first.
'the beatings will continue until the morale improves.'
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decatt
Dear Trust and Obey,
I couldn't help reading your thoughts on "Is God in Control". And of course as would have it, I need to add my 5 cents worth.
Faith, Trust, Believing etc. is what opens the door for God to move in your life. If God was in control then just getting Born Again or Saved would be all that is required. Because God would do the rest, RIGHT?
If God is truly in control then it would have to be his way RIGHT?
Free Will means Free Choice. And even well intentioned christians can't always get it right. We can still break fellowship with the Father and his son Jesus Christ. And it can cost us our lives at times too!!!
If God was in control and christians were allowed to die, then that would "by association" make him "God" a murderer.
If God was in control then why did he create Adam and then let him screw all of creation up. And why would he create Lucifer and then let him punish his creation for thousands of years. That to me just takes the wind out of " For God so loved the world" doesn't it. How can you love and then kill and destroy all in the same breathe.
Do you think God has a God complex? Do you think he has to prove himself, thereby creating and killing to show he can?
I don't think so. My God does not have robots worshiping him. We by our choice do so lovingly.
God responds to us according to how we reply to his wants.
I John 3:22 and receive from him anything we ask, becuase we obey his commands and do what pleases him. NIV
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
We have to go to God. We make requests of God and hopefully he responds by granting our request. But if he was in control then what would be the need of prayer? If God was in control then all the bad things that have ever happened would be his fault for allowing them to happen. Do you see were God needs us. God doesn't use us. And to say He is in control also implies He does use us. I am not possessed by God. I have been given His spirit and can use the 9 manifestations of that spirit anytime that I choose.
Does any of this make since? I sure do pray it does.
God Bless you Trust and Obey
decatt
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dmiller
Decatt --- Good to see you (finally) posting. :)
Welcome to the Forums.
Here's hoping your new home and location suit you.
I've been wondering about your *new life*,
everytime I drive past your old home town, on my way south on I-35.
Ok -- back to the topic at hand.
David
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TrustAndObey
decatt,
I don't have much time to answer a lot on this at this time. But something to think about..
As others have already pointed out. It all goes back to what you mean by "in control'.
The dictionary defines it as: "to exercise authoritative control or power over; "control the budget"; "Command the military forces"
And that is more or less the definition I use. But the way I use the term "in control" wouldn't necessarily equate to "controlling someone or something". One can be "in control" i.e. have power over another and in a position of power over another, without controlling them i.e. manipulating and moving them around as a board piece incapable of it making it's own movements.
So if looked at in that light, God is in control in that he does have power over us. Unless one were to disgree with Romans 13 which states that there is no power but of God, and the powers that be are ordained of God. I'm well aware of how TWI and others try and slant that verse to only being about religious ministers, however I think it is much more overarching.
God commanded the light out of darkness. He made the waters and the seas and all there is on this earth and the heavens above. So to say he doesn't have the power over us would be to diminish the power God has.
However if one were to mean by God being "in control" that it means he is controlling or controls you (which I might add is not the NORMAL use for the phrase "to be in control" in the English language) then of course I'd agree with you wholeheartedly.
The problem I see mostly is that when one starts saying things such as God not being in control, the first thing most of the English speaking population would think is that you are saying God is limited. He is not all powerful, or all knowing, or everywhere present. However the scriptures do say that there is no power but of God, it does say he knew us before the foundations, it does say that in him we live and move and have our being.
To me, and please note I'm just saying in my humble opinion which is not Thus sayeth the Lord, but the phrase God is not control wreaks of Deism. A God that is no longer capable or actively handling the affairs of this world.
It is doctrines like Deism that lead people to stop trusting God, and instead turn to trusting in our five senses and in ourselves or others, something the scriptures speak completely against. Why would I want to pray to God if per chance he is incapable of meeting my request? Why trust in God if he has not the power to help? Why rest in God for our eternal security when he might not have the werewithal to actually save us in the end because he might miss a step or underestimate his enemies or not be even be capable?
I mean, since when did the word God not mean GOD! And I don't mean the English word. I mean the original Hebrew word which meant THE ONE WHO HAS GREAT POWER AND AUTHORITY OVER OTHERS! Go figure, the exact dictionary definition of the word 'control'.
True, it may be all in how you define the terms. But I feel it is always best to define them the way it is used mostly in this day and time and at the same time doesn't have any negative connotation to the one who created this world, gave us life, and in the end shall deliver us from this mortal body.
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