I’m trying to draw a distinction between how the world lives and how a believer lives.
We have a job to do – reconciling people back to God. How each of us is involved in this process is going to be different. I just picked pastor because it represented this.
The world (unbelievers) are not busy reconciling people back to God. They’re just out there living life.
After twi went bust all of those people who were out there doing things like going WOW, inviting people to bible study, etc just kind of laid down and quit. In other words, they started going through life like the rest of the world does. They gave up their primary occupation of reconciling people back to God.
I’m not talking about everyone here. Yes, some have continued on like the friend of mine I mentioned in a previous post, some at CES, etc.
I’m not talking about these people. But in my experience, which over the years is a good little bit, most ex-wayer just quit.
So, we're also told to make disciples of all men. There are about a billion ways to do this without being a pastor (and yes many look mundane). Jesus calls people into his body for a reason - and they are all different with different functions. You can't say one is important and one isn't, it's like looking at an army and saying the sharpshooters are more important than the cooks - try being in the army without eating for a couple of weeks and then see if you still agree.
But not everyone can honestly look at their lives and say they are doing whatever that 'thing' is.
There are ex-twi people i've read even on this site that don't consider themselves christians 'anymore' so i would have to say that Biblically they are not living according to their 'calling'. Also people who have tried going to church but can't because they won't shut up about some divisive doctrinal issue that is burned in their brain from TWI as the MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER so they stay at home and I KNOW FOR SURE that they don't even read their Bibles anymore. I know plenty of people (sadly even a couple of close family members) that are on divorce 2, 3, 4 and just rant on about 'grace' - frankly i wish they would stay away from the church because they hurt others continually. Some in dallas that sat around smoking d*pe until they died. there's also some that read their Bibles and pray but won't talk about Jesus or fellowship (foresaking the assembling together?).
Are you guys saying everyone you know from TWI is living according to their calling? If that's true i am really happy to hear that. my experience is that it's been the strong minority.
If this is the kind of people who come from CES and what y'all are taught it's no wonder the whole group hasn't collapsed on itself before now. Maybe y'all should call craig, he'd be a great President for your group!
After twi went bust all of those people who were out there doing things like going WOW, inviting people to bible study, etc just kind of laid down and quit. In other words, they started going through life like the rest of the world does. They gave up their primary occupation of reconciling people back to God.
I’m not talking about everyone here. Yes, some have continued on like the friend of mine I mentioned in a previous post, some at CES, etc.
I’m not talking about these people. But in my experience, which over the years is a good little bit, most ex-wayer just quit.
uptown......I understand your point, but here's another perspective.
Some of us....and yes, I'm including several of my ex-twi friends here.....found out about twi's darker side and evil, seductive agendas. We exited and started rebuilding our lives.
Of course, no longer being 22 years old.......with 7 nights a week of "free time" it was a little different. Now, at 46 (as an example).....we were responsible for a spouse, growing teenagers, school activities, extra parenting, night school (or extra training) to pay the bills, etc. etc. etc. Add to that, several of us were still attending bible fellowships, or RUNNING bible fellowships to help others, and spending countless hours try to help those who were burdened, hurt, abused by twi.
If THAT is what you call quitting........so be it.
Life continues moving forward and each one of us has to anwer to God for our actions, our marriage vows, our parenting. No more "just smiling at the fellowship and eating cookies afterwards"....ya know.
My bible says..........if a man doesn't take care of his family he is worse than an infidel (unbeliever).
Did you ever notice how MANY region-type leaders in twi had NO CHILDREN (or just one)?????? Or, that Erman & Dorothy Owxns didn't have children........or the trustees and their nannies???? Or, all the requests at those big limbs for volunteer workers and child care?????
Really, I'd have to know alot more about ex-twiers before using the word "quit." IMO, it's judgemental at best.........and could misalign alot of us with good hearts STILL SERVING GOD in different ways.
skyrider - i don't think anyone would call that quitting at all. i think that's the right thing to do (the Godly thing to do), especially the family part.
Are you guys saying everyone you know from TWI is living according to their calling? If that's true i am really happy to hear that. my experience is that it's been the strong minority.
Why do you think it's any of your business to decide if people are or aren't living up to their calling?
Why do you think it's any of your business to decide if people are or aren't living up to their calling?
I'm not 'deciding' if they are or not. Really not sure what you're talking about.
Tonto / Excathedra - are you saying it shouldn't bother me to see people I love (LIKE MY FAMILY) with wrecked lives from bad decisions and hurt from a living in a cult?
i have a job the dear lord gave me to be able to be the best mom possible (in reference to your comment about god would give me a job to fit my personality)
as far as how i live my life, it really isn't any of your business, you know ?
i've been "funning" with you, i'm sorry
but i don't have to answer to you and what i do in my life is not really your concern, although i think i appreciate the heart behind what you are saying
peace
ps. don't let things bother you so much, especially when you don't know.....
It’s interesting to note that when I mentioned getting off the couch and doing something for God instead of just complaining about everything people went nuts.
I have obviously struck a cord.
Why did so many people become angry when it was suggested that a lot of you out there are doing nothing for God?
Because it is true. If you were doing anything for God it would have never occurred to you to personalize my comments.
You can lie to me easily enough.
You can tell me this is none of my business easily enough.
You can dismiss me easily enough.
But it will not change what is true.
I came to gs to talk to believers, but I didn’t find any.
That's it uptown...breeze in here and tell us what you've think you've seen and when we don't agree with you, declare us unbelievers. Yep, you must be a prophet.
Skyrider, I should not have just said, "i don't think anyone would call that quitting." My REAL feelings are that your choice as described is the FAR BETTER one, and I have repented often of not making it soon enough and often enough. Our "real ministry" is what's in front of our eyes all day long and I don't need another book or a fearless leader to explain. Someone asked Colin Powell how he rose to the top military position he was in and he said, "I never walked passed an obvious need without doing something about it, and for some reason they just started promoting me."
Exchathedra / Tonto - no worries for the confusion and no apology needed, but thanks for the clarification.
Uptown1 (not to be confused with 1broken1) - i went back and read your posts and in general you seem to be saying things like,
You said that you were helping believers. No I don’t call that quitting. That’s the kind of thing I think we should be doing.
I'm not sure what the disagreement with you on that would be, and if your personal experience is that you've seen ex-way people who 'gave up' I would say I've seen a lot of that too. There seem to be some people here who are strong exceptions to that in this 'community' and people who have moved on in life, which is great. Hopefully we can get some grace for our skepticism that many twi people just got so hurt and burned they bailed for good.
All - I am a little new to GS, but I have noticed (it seems) that if I leave a sentence open to more than one way of interpretting it, the strongest 'negative' way seems to be how it's received. I am open to discussion, debate, alternative, agreement, but several times I just get snapped retorts about my assumed ignorance.
to further clarify - i think one of the sickest and saddest twi legacies was breaking of families and ignoring the needs of those at home, like the kidlets.
it's cool to hear from several of you that you put 110% emphasis on that in your post-twi life.
took me way too long to figure it out, but better late than never!
It's interesting to note that when I mentioned getting off the couch and doing something for God instead of just complaining about everything people went nuts.
I have obviously struck a cord.
Why did so many people become angry when it was suggested that a lot of you out there are doing nothing for God?
Because it is true. If you were doing anything for God it would have never occurred to you to personalize my comments.
You can lie to me easily enough.
You can tell me this is none of my business easily enough.
You can dismiss me easily enough.
But it will not change what is true.
I came to gs to talk to believers, but I didn't find any.
You certainly have struck a familiar chord…Where have I heard that tune before? Wait…wait! It's coming to me…lots of talk about research and then there's laying the old guilt trip of me not doing enough according to someone else's agenda…So it's the same old song and dance of TWI.
I'm not angry – it's more like…amused…How much research has gone into the way you research? I am not surprised at the tone of your posts – it sounds to me like someone who is stuck inthe TWI method of processing information. What TWI followers do is not research – but regurgitate the assumptions and point of view of TWI. So even when a follower leaves TWI – unless they start identifying the assumptions they absorbed – they continue to process information the same way with the same results and with the same accompanying side effects – like pride and hatred.
…I'm sure there's always something more I could do – but when I recall a verse like
Colossians 3:23
Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men…
…I think there's a lot that can be said for building a marriage, a family, a career. The passage says "whatever you do." It's not restricted to only the "spiritually elite." I think something is amiss when any group claims to be serving God and drives their followers to do busy work to maintain and increase the ranks at the expense of their marriages, families, and careers. These are things that God instituted in the first place.
…This is goofy…somebody thinks they've cornered the market on truth and now they're not satisfied until they've convinced someone else of their great find. Now they pass on the torch – the mission – which is more important than marriage, family and career – is to convince someone else of this great truth.
You really sound like sour grapes now Uptown1. If you want to talk to believers in Christ then start acting Christ like because your last post sounded like the words of a pharisee. People here have offered you sound explanations and without animosity as to their faith and biblical/spiritual understanding. You have returned the favor now with animosity, hostility and arrogance. You are sounding more and more like a CES leader who when he can't get people to see things his way sues his partners. So which is the real you? Like TWI leaders who acted like Christian ministers sometimes and then pharisees at other times your words now are double minded. Sometimes they are good, sometimes they are haughty, yet they always have a rationalization. Don't expect to win any converts in this manner for your words and actions.
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uptown1
Mr. Hammeroni,
I’m trying to draw a distinction between how the world lives and how a believer lives.
We have a job to do – reconciling people back to God. How each of us is involved in this process is going to be different. I just picked pastor because it represented this.
The world (unbelievers) are not busy reconciling people back to God. They’re just out there living life.
After twi went bust all of those people who were out there doing things like going WOW, inviting people to bible study, etc just kind of laid down and quit. In other words, they started going through life like the rest of the world does. They gave up their primary occupation of reconciling people back to God.
I’m not talking about everyone here. Yes, some have continued on like the friend of mine I mentioned in a previous post, some at CES, etc.
I’m not talking about these people. But in my experience, which over the years is a good little bit, most ex-wayer just quit.
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1broken1
So, we're also told to make disciples of all men. There are about a billion ways to do this without being a pastor (and yes many look mundane). Jesus calls people into his body for a reason - and they are all different with different functions. You can't say one is important and one isn't, it's like looking at an army and saying the sharpshooters are more important than the cooks - try being in the army without eating for a couple of weeks and then see if you still agree.
But not everyone can honestly look at their lives and say they are doing whatever that 'thing' is.
There are ex-twi people i've read even on this site that don't consider themselves christians 'anymore' so i would have to say that Biblically they are not living according to their 'calling'. Also people who have tried going to church but can't because they won't shut up about some divisive doctrinal issue that is burned in their brain from TWI as the MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER so they stay at home and I KNOW FOR SURE that they don't even read their Bibles anymore. I know plenty of people (sadly even a couple of close family members) that are on divorce 2, 3, 4 and just rant on about 'grace' - frankly i wish they would stay away from the church because they hurt others continually. Some in dallas that sat around smoking d*pe until they died. there's also some that read their Bibles and pray but won't talk about Jesus or fellowship (foresaking the assembling together?).
Are you guys saying everyone you know from TWI is living according to their calling? If that's true i am really happy to hear that. my experience is that it's been the strong minority.
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Belle
If this is the kind of people who come from CES and what y'all are taught it's no wonder the whole group hasn't collapsed on itself before now. Maybe y'all should call craig, he'd be a great President for your group!
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skyrider
uptown......I understand your point, but here's another perspective.
Some of us....and yes, I'm including several of my ex-twi friends here.....found out about twi's darker side and evil, seductive agendas. We exited and started rebuilding our lives.
Of course, no longer being 22 years old.......with 7 nights a week of "free time" it was a little different. Now, at 46 (as an example).....we were responsible for a spouse, growing teenagers, school activities, extra parenting, night school (or extra training) to pay the bills, etc. etc. etc. Add to that, several of us were still attending bible fellowships, or RUNNING bible fellowships to help others, and spending countless hours try to help those who were burdened, hurt, abused by twi.
If THAT is what you call quitting........so be it.
Life continues moving forward and each one of us has to anwer to God for our actions, our marriage vows, our parenting. No more "just smiling at the fellowship and eating cookies afterwards"....ya know.
My bible says..........if a man doesn't take care of his family he is worse than an infidel (unbeliever).
Did you ever notice how MANY region-type leaders in twi had NO CHILDREN (or just one)?????? Or, that Erman & Dorothy Owxns didn't have children........or the trustees and their nannies???? Or, all the requests at those big limbs for volunteer workers and child care?????
Really, I'd have to know alot more about ex-twiers before using the word "quit." IMO, it's judgemental at best.........and could misalign alot of us with good hearts STILL SERVING GOD in different ways.
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1broken1
skyrider - i don't think anyone would call that quitting at all. i think that's the right thing to do (the Godly thing to do), especially the family part.
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excathedra
excuse me, it's a computer chair....
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uptown1
You hit the nail on the head Bella.
Any group that teaches its people to go and make disciples of men is sure to collapse on itself.
Amen.
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uptown1
Skyrider,
You said that you were helping believers.
No I don’t call that quitting. That’s the kind of thing I think we should be doing.
When you guys are reading this you have to stop and think, “If the shoe fits wear it.”
You’re taking care of your family, helping believers who have been hurt, running a fellowship, etc.
My experience is that you’re the exception.
There is a reason it says there is a lot of work, but the laborers are few – because people like you are the exception.
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tonto
Why do you think it's any of your business to decide if people are or aren't living up to their calling?
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excathedra
ditto. i won't be calling uptown ;) ;)
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1broken1
I'm not 'deciding' if they are or not. Really not sure what you're talking about.
Tonto / Excathedra - are you saying it shouldn't bother me to see people I love (LIKE MY FAMILY) with wrecked lives from bad decisions and hurt from a living in a cult?
Are you serious???
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excathedra
listen uptown, thank you
i don't have a wrecked life
i have a job the dear lord gave me to be able to be the best mom possible (in reference to your comment about god would give me a job to fit my personality)
as far as how i live my life, it really isn't any of your business, you know ?
i've been "funning" with you, i'm sorry
but i don't have to answer to you and what i do in my life is not really your concern, although i think i appreciate the heart behind what you are saying
peace
ps. don't let things bother you so much, especially when you don't know.....
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tonto
1broken1, I quoted you but got you mixed up with uptown1...maybe it's the "1" thing.
I'm sorry that you've seen your family hurt and wrecked. I'm just saying that I believe a person's calling is between him and the Lord.
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uptown1
It’s interesting to note that when I mentioned getting off the couch and doing something for God instead of just complaining about everything people went nuts.
I have obviously struck a cord.
Why did so many people become angry when it was suggested that a lot of you out there are doing nothing for God?
Because it is true. If you were doing anything for God it would have never occurred to you to personalize my comments.
You can lie to me easily enough.
You can tell me this is none of my business easily enough.
You can dismiss me easily enough.
But it will not change what is true.
I came to gs to talk to believers, but I didn’t find any.
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excathedra
bye bye ;)
now i can't remember who i'm talking to broken or uptown sowwy
but did someone personalize me about my job ?
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tonto
That's it uptown...breeze in here and tell us what you've think you've seen and when we don't agree with you, declare us unbelievers. Yep, you must be a prophet.
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excathedra
please stand and give a word of prophecy
my apologies to broken
that was supposed to be a different post
sowwy broken for getting confused
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1broken1
Skyrider, I should not have just said, "i don't think anyone would call that quitting." My REAL feelings are that your choice as described is the FAR BETTER one, and I have repented often of not making it soon enough and often enough. Our "real ministry" is what's in front of our eyes all day long and I don't need another book or a fearless leader to explain. Someone asked Colin Powell how he rose to the top military position he was in and he said, "I never walked passed an obvious need without doing something about it, and for some reason they just started promoting me."
Exchathedra / Tonto - no worries for the confusion and no apology needed, but thanks for the clarification.
Uptown1 (not to be confused with 1broken1) - i went back and read your posts and in general you seem to be saying things like,
I'm not sure what the disagreement with you on that would be, and if your personal experience is that you've seen ex-way people who 'gave up' I would say I've seen a lot of that too. There seem to be some people here who are strong exceptions to that in this 'community' and people who have moved on in life, which is great. Hopefully we can get some grace for our skepticism that many twi people just got so hurt and burned they bailed for good.
All - I am a little new to GS, but I have noticed (it seems) that if I leave a sentence open to more than one way of interpretting it, the strongest 'negative' way seems to be how it's received. I am open to discussion, debate, alternative, agreement, but several times I just get snapped retorts about my assumed ignorance.
:huh:
Is it just me?
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1broken1
(and another thing) :D
to further clarify - i think one of the sickest and saddest twi legacies was breaking of families and ignoring the needs of those at home, like the kidlets.
it's cool to hear from several of you that you put 110% emphasis on that in your post-twi life.
took me way too long to figure it out, but better late than never!
night all!
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T-Bone
You certainly have struck a familiar chord…Where have I heard that tune before? Wait…wait! It's coming to me…lots of talk about research and then there's laying the old guilt trip of me not doing enough according to someone else's agenda…So it's the same old song and dance of TWI.
I'm not angry – it's more like…amused…How much research has gone into the way you research? I am not surprised at the tone of your posts – it sounds to me like someone who is stuck in the TWI method of processing information. What TWI followers do is not research – but regurgitate the assumptions and point of view of TWI. So even when a follower leaves TWI – unless they start identifying the assumptions they absorbed – they continue to process information the same way with the same results and with the same accompanying side effects – like pride and hatred.
…I'm sure there's always something more I could do – but when I recall a verse like
Colossians 3:23
Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men…
…I think there's a lot that can be said for building a marriage, a family, a career. The passage says "whatever you do." It's not restricted to only the "spiritually elite." I think something is amiss when any group claims to be serving God and drives their followers to do busy work to maintain and increase the ranks at the expense of their marriages, families, and careers. These are things that God instituted in the first place.
…This is goofy…somebody thinks they've cornered the market on truth and now they're not satisfied until they've convinced someone else of their great find. Now they pass on the torch – the mission – which is more important than marriage, family and career – is to convince someone else of this great truth.
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Mark Sanguinetti
You really sound like sour grapes now Uptown1. If you want to talk to believers in Christ then start acting Christ like because your last post sounded like the words of a pharisee. People here have offered you sound explanations and without animosity as to their faith and biblical/spiritual understanding. You have returned the favor now with animosity, hostility and arrogance. You are sounding more and more like a CES leader who when he can't get people to see things his way sues his partners. So which is the real you? Like TWI leaders who acted like Christian ministers sometimes and then pharisees at other times your words now are double minded. Sometimes they are good, sometimes they are haughty, yet they always have a rationalization. Don't expect to win any converts in this manner for your words and actions.
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Linda Z
Uptown said: "I came to gs to talk to believers, but I didn’t find any."
Maybe you just didn't look around enough because you were too busy preaching at everyone.
Or maybe they were hiding from you. I think I get the gist of what you've been saying, but it's coming off as judgmental. Sorry, no church with you.
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Sushi
To paraphrase "The Soup Nazi" on Seinfeld, "NO CHURCH FOR YOU!!!"
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Ham
I would not make that assumption. Personally, I am trying to understand them, and am only finding them despicable.
My spirituality is no longer based upon how well I can convince other people to believe the same as I.
The thought of going back to being a self-righteous, bible-spouting know it all "christian" pharisee with an answer for EVERYTHING, well..
I'd rather be a Moonie selling flowers.
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