I get the idea that Uptown is living under the impression that the spiritual descendents of TWI are the first ones and only ones around that believe in the "ministry of reconciliation".
I grew up in TWI. Praise God my family left in 1989. Then, I left the offshoot in 1995. In 1997, I realized that I had never learned how to share the Gospel. Then, I realized that I wasn't really all that clear on what "the Gospel" was.
Dont misunderstand me. I believed that Jesus died for my sins and that God raised him from the dead. I even went a step further than TWI taught and meant what I said when I called Jesus "Lord". But I couldn't explain that to others and I certainly didn't understand the how to lead someone to Christ.
Realizing my lack of knowledge, I prayed that the Lord would teach me about this.
He did NOT lead me back to TWI or any offshoot thereof.
Instead he led me to a church that is very effective in this area. (I think different churches have been especially gifted by the Holy Spirit in different ways.)
The point of this is that I think Upstart thinks that "the gospel" is the "teachings of VPW and his disciples".
I don't understand that.
It makes me wonder if Upstart even knows the real gospel in the first place. But then I dunno... maybe Upstart could tell us what the Gospel is anyway.
It’s interesting to note that when I mentioned getting off the couch and doing something for God instead of just complaining about everything people went nuts.
I have obviously struck a cord.
Why did so many people become angry when it was suggested that a lot of you out there are doing nothing for God?
[because you looked at some posts some of us have placed on a website,
decided you knew all about our lives without actually knowing us,
and then began making pronouncements.
That strikes a chord in ex-twiers because we've met plenty of ill-trained,
supposed leaders BEFORE who did this sort of thing.
Nowadays, when someone tells us "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain",
we pull the curtain aside to expose the mortal man standing there pretending he's
a big shot. "Once bitten, twice shy."
We don't encourage people to decide they know all about our lives just based
on a handful of posts and not getting to know us,
then making pronouncements.
That's it.]
Because it is true. If you were doing anything for God it would have never occurred to you to personalize my comments.
You can lie to me easily enough.
You can tell me this is none of my business easily enough.
You can dismiss me easily enough.
But it will not change what is true.
I came to gs to talk to believers, but I didn’t find any.
[That illustrated my point nicely.
You decided that you knew everything there was to know on the subject and need
not actually get to know us before deciding you knew all about us.
Then you made a grand pronouncement about all of us from on high.
But you left out the florid language like us being "under the ban" or "apostate"
or something else.
So, your judgements-your preconcieved notions phrased as judgements, really-
will not change what is true either.
If this is your idea of dialoguing, it's not going to encourage the
active Christians here to chat with you as a friend, companion, respected equal,
or what-have-you.
Just to make it official,
you have no idea what I do on my off-time.
I don't come here and announce it, because I don't want to.
That strikes me like sounding a trumpet when I pay alms-I don't want that reward-
and frankly, I'm not in it for the rewards.
Did you really think you could arrive, dictate how we interact with you, and get
grown adults to just fall in line? Didn't you realize we already sat thru this movie?
"Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."]
okay folks,
I get the idea that Uptown is living under the impression that the spiritual descendents of TWI are the first ones and only ones around that believe in the "ministry of reconciliation".
I grew up in TWI. Praise God my family left in 1989. Then, I left the offshoot in 1995. In 1997, I realized that I had never learned how to share the Gospel. Then, I realized that I wasn't really all that clear on what "the Gospel" was.
Dont misunderstand me. I believed that Jesus died for my sins and that God raised him from the dead. I even went a step further than TWI taught and meant what I said when I called Jesus "Lord". But I couldn't explain that to others and I certainly didn't understand the how to lead someone to Christ.
Realizing my lack of knowledge, I prayed that the Lord would teach me about this.
He did NOT lead me back to TWI or any offshoot thereof.
Instead he led me to a church that is very effective in this area. (I think different churches have been especially gifted by the Holy Spirit in different ways.)
The point of this is that I think Upstart thinks that "the gospel" is the "teachings of VPW and his disciples".
I don't understand that.
It makes me wonder if Upstart even knows the real gospel in the first place. But then I dunno... maybe Upstart could tell us what the Gospel is anyway.
Nice one, especially for a new arrival.
Hello, sonofarthur.
Pull up a chair, and enjoy your stay.
There's a sticky with a guide for new arrivals, I hope you looked it over.
The biggest thing about TWI and those who tried to set up their own version of TWI is the lack of compassion and love and respect for THE WHOLE BODY of Christ. Loving your neighbor; treating others with respect and living well because of your love and not because of compulsion. They're more interested in "ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of Christ" - they'd rather conjugate Greek than actually encourage, build up and love folks.
Pity, cause THAT's where the living is and THAT'S where the blessings are for TRUE Christians. And even non-Christians who live those principles (and there are lots of 'em) - are truly living the more abundant life that TWI and CES and the others merely study.
It’s interesting to note that when I mentioned getting off the couch and doing something for God instead of just complaining about everything people went nuts.
I have obviously struck a cord.
Why did so many people become angry when it was suggested that a lot of you out there are doing nothing for God?
Because it is true. If you were doing anything for God it would have never occurred to you to personalize my comments.
You can lie to me easily enough.
You can tell me this is none of my business easily enough.
You can dismiss me easily enough.
But it will not change what is true.
I came to gs to talk to believers, but I didn’t find any.
ummm... excuse me uptown1... but the nametag police would like to know which nametag you are wearing...
only those with an elite nametag may post those sort of sentiments here...
All - I am a little new to GS, but I have noticed (it seems) that if I leave a sentence open to more than one way of interpretting it, the strongest 'negative' way seems to be how it's received. I am open to discussion, debate, alternative, agreement, but several times I just get snapped retorts about my assumed ignorance.
:huh:
Is it just me?
It's just you... :) (not really)
That does happen here, but I don't know that it happens any more here than in any other forum populated by people who were once in an extremely controlling religious cult... or in the general public. Generally, if someone comes here looking for an argument about something, they'll probably find someone who will give it to them... depends on whose post toasties got pi$$ed in that day... and of course we do have some who just like to "debate"...
Most times, if something was taken wrong, if the original poster just comes on and clarifies then everything ends up peachy-keen. If anyone took 'violent' exception to the misunderstanding in the meantime, they'll usually come back and say 'sorry, never mind' as well.
I think there's more of an occasion for ambiguity with the "written, internet conversation" than a face to face, oral conversation... even though we do have emoticons.
I just love that old TWI phrase - we have to be "doing something for God," or, God has called us to do "great things."
Pray Uptown, just what are these "doing things" for God we should be doing?
Specifically - what does it mean to you?
I think loving people, blessing them, and worshipping the Father in Spirit and in Truth is "doing great things for God," i.e., living our lives as Christ would have us.
Obviously, that's not good enough for you.
So, what is doing "great things" for God mean to you?
What is it we should all be doing to make you and God happy?
Until you've sat a week on another man's couch, don't judge it.
There are some True Facts I would offer to be considered -
1.) how, when and where people got mixed up in TWI's activities has not always been a truly altruistic and inspired event and therefore it's probably better that those people aren't still doing anything "in the name of God" - I can only hope.
2.) some people came to TWI, liked it, then decided to try something else and left. Those people never get counted in any ex-Wayfer "What Are You Doing" Census taking.
3.) some of the things TWI offered were never meant or designed to BE a Lifetime of Visible Service That Can Be Applauded By Those Who Keep Track of Such Things. Like the "WOW" program. The WOW program wasn't really built to be something of incredible impact on a community - yeah, yeah - "Word Over Your Yard" or whatever program was being touted, but primarily it was for the "individual" and their own growth. You sign up, go WOW, have the year, then go "back" from whence you came or TO somewhere else and get right back on the Life Track.
4.) life has "seasons", cycles, change that reflects - well, that's the question isn't it? What does it reflect, at any given time. Lord knows there's no lack of Licensed Spiritual Analysts collating and interpreting the data for everyone. But that's a problem with having Religious Bean Counters - you can never be sure you have all the beans accounted for, for everyone.
5.) most of my friends that are ex-Wayfers are doing pretty cool things, certainly all of them aren't "pastoring" any churches, but doing quite a bit of "pastoring" of individuals, and have all ki-inds of interesting endeavors going on.
6.) Uptown1 is comparing these people they know - but who may not be getting a fair shake - they may actually be fine upstanding people. Perhaps we can get an Observation Committee to do some checking. Once we have a better idea of what uptown1 is doing, and what the ex-Wayfer community they know is doing, we can compare it to known data of other ex-Wayfer peop's in that age/gender/marital-status demographic and cross-reference it to similar groups in each decade of existence of the Way, staring in 1940.
6.) Uptown1 is comparing these people they know - but who may not be getting a fair shake - they may actually be fine upstanding people. Perhaps we can get an Observation Committee to do some checking.
There's going to be another committee??? ...sheesh... I'm already on refreshments and set-up and advised on the find a couch to sit on committee...
Tom, you're already doing too much, man! but that's a great example you exude. I wish more people could be like you and take your example to heart. In fact, I'm totally relieved now because for awhile, well, I thought y'know, you were kinda just not....doin' anything. I was wrong - the Couch Committee is a TOTally worthy and AWEsome thing to be doing. TOTally COol.Just remember - refreshments and set up aren't Over and Above Doing, that's just what you owe, Basic Stuff ("b.s.") The Couch thing though - TOTally cool and awesome. You're DOING it!
I'm not angry – it's more like…amused…How much research has gone into the way you research? I am not surprised at the tone of your posts – it sounds to me like someone who is stuck inthe TWI method of processing information. What TWI followers do is not research – but regurgitate the assumptions and point of view of TWI. So even when a follower leaves TWI – unless they start identifying the assumptions they absorbed – they continue to process information the same way with the same results and with the same accompanying side effects – like pride and hatred.
Linda Z, Tom is All Dude All the Time, no question about it
Exude
verb
1 exude, exudate, transude, ooze out, ooze
release (a liquid) in drops or small quantities; "exude sweat through the pores"
2 exude
make apparent by one's mood or behaviour; "She exude great confidence"
This was on wordreference.com, and the typo notwithstanding (heck of a word there, can't use it too much) I was thinking of it along these lines, that Tom oozes "doing it-ness", doing stuff, being a real doer and not a not-doer. Not doing something is easy - see that thing to do? I'm not doing it. Doing stuff, TOTally like, different and all, and requires focus, concentration, committment, staying power, and all kinds of other godly and spiritually dynamic and real principles we can use in our everyday walks, today and all.
Until you've sat a week on another man's couch, don't judge it.
Socks, actually it should be, "Never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes". That way if he gets mad, you're a mile away, and you have his shoes.
I am pretty new here and have not finished reading reading everything, I guess I'm behind. It amazed me in reading the Clergy letter (still not done) about their meeting and collection of prophecies led by Nancy Berwid how much (totally?) they ask someone else for a prophecy. And no one ever talks about asking God directly for a Word of Knowledge and Word of Wisdom. Another comment was made somewhere about this ces model resembling the Roman Catholic priesthood who stood between you and God. I guess we are not good enough anymore to hear directly from God eh? (sarcasm in case anyone is wondering).
My other word of advice to you ces people if you want the conflict to subside is to just shut up for a couple of months. My gosh you people like to talk about each other and probably behind each others backs. Just put a sock in it (apologies Socks) and go take a homeless person a blanket and a meal.
CES/STF the ministry that fights together. Grow up!
I'm not angry – it's more like…amused…How much research has gone into the way you research? I am not surprised at the tone of your posts – it sounds to me like someone who is stuck inthe TWI method of processing information. What TWI followers do is not research – but regurgitate the assumptions and point of view of TWI. So even when a follower leaves TWI – unless they start identifying the assumptions they absorbed – they continue to process information the same way with the same results and with the same accompanying side effects – like pride and hatred.
This would be a great quote for for the defimation trials.
Maybe they should have you as thier lawer T-bone. You could show the joury how stupid and out of touch the cult mentality has made them all.
Thanks for the insight, have been guilty of this myself at times.
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sonofarthur
okay folks,
I get the idea that Uptown is living under the impression that the spiritual descendents of TWI are the first ones and only ones around that believe in the "ministry of reconciliation".
I grew up in TWI. Praise God my family left in 1989. Then, I left the offshoot in 1995. In 1997, I realized that I had never learned how to share the Gospel. Then, I realized that I wasn't really all that clear on what "the Gospel" was.
Dont misunderstand me. I believed that Jesus died for my sins and that God raised him from the dead. I even went a step further than TWI taught and meant what I said when I called Jesus "Lord". But I couldn't explain that to others and I certainly didn't understand the how to lead someone to Christ.
Realizing my lack of knowledge, I prayed that the Lord would teach me about this.
He did NOT lead me back to TWI or any offshoot thereof.
Instead he led me to a church that is very effective in this area. (I think different churches have been especially gifted by the Holy Spirit in different ways.)
The point of this is that I think Upstart thinks that "the gospel" is the "teachings of VPW and his disciples".
I don't understand that.
It makes me wonder if Upstart even knows the real gospel in the first place. But then I dunno... maybe Upstart could tell us what the Gospel is anyway.
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WordWolf
[because you looked at some posts some of us have placed on a website,
decided you knew all about our lives without actually knowing us,
and then began making pronouncements.
That strikes a chord in ex-twiers because we've met plenty of ill-trained,
supposed leaders BEFORE who did this sort of thing.
Nowadays, when someone tells us "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain",
we pull the curtain aside to expose the mortal man standing there pretending he's
a big shot. "Once bitten, twice shy."
We don't encourage people to decide they know all about our lives just based
on a handful of posts and not getting to know us,
then making pronouncements.
That's it.]
[That illustrated my point nicely.You decided that you knew everything there was to know on the subject and need
not actually get to know us before deciding you knew all about us.
Then you made a grand pronouncement about all of us from on high.
But you left out the florid language like us being "under the ban" or "apostate"
or something else.
So, your judgements-your preconcieved notions phrased as judgements, really-
will not change what is true either.
If this is your idea of dialoguing, it's not going to encourage the
active Christians here to chat with you as a friend, companion, respected equal,
or what-have-you.
Just to make it official,
you have no idea what I do on my off-time.
I don't come here and announce it, because I don't want to.
That strikes me like sounding a trumpet when I pay alms-I don't want that reward-
and frankly, I'm not in it for the rewards.
Did you really think you could arrive, dictate how we interact with you, and get
grown adults to just fall in line? Didn't you realize we already sat thru this movie?
"Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."]
Nice one, especially for a new arrival.
Hello, sonofarthur.
Pull up a chair, and enjoy your stay.
There's a sticky with a guide for new arrivals, I hope you looked it over.
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Belle
WELCOME, sonofarthur!
First cuppa joe is on the house. I hope you enjoy your visit here.
Here's a link to the sticky that WW referred to: Welcome and a few tips
This thread is also so good it's a stick, too: What is The Way?
The biggest thing about TWI and those who tried to set up their own version of TWI is the lack of compassion and love and respect for THE WHOLE BODY of Christ. Loving your neighbor; treating others with respect and living well because of your love and not because of compulsion. They're more interested in "ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of Christ" - they'd rather conjugate Greek than actually encourage, build up and love folks.
Pity, cause THAT's where the living is and THAT'S where the blessings are for TRUE Christians. And even non-Christians who live those principles (and there are lots of 'em) - are truly living the more abundant life that TWI and CES and the others merely study.
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Tom Strange
ummm... excuse me uptown1... but the nametag police would like to know which nametag you are wearing...
only those with an elite nametag may post those sort of sentiments here...
Edited by Tom StrangeLink to comment
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Tom Strange
It's just you... :) (not really)
That does happen here, but I don't know that it happens any more here than in any other forum populated by people who were once in an extremely controlling religious cult... or in the general public. Generally, if someone comes here looking for an argument about something, they'll probably find someone who will give it to them... depends on whose post toasties got pi$$ed in that day... and of course we do have some who just like to "debate"...
Most times, if something was taken wrong, if the original poster just comes on and clarifies then everything ends up peachy-keen. If anyone took 'violent' exception to the misunderstanding in the meantime, they'll usually come back and say 'sorry, never mind' as well.
I think there's more of an occasion for ambiguity with the "written, internet conversation" than a face to face, oral conversation... even though we do have emoticons.
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Sunesis
I just love that old TWI phrase - we have to be "doing something for God," or, God has called us to do "great things."
Pray Uptown, just what are these "doing things" for God we should be doing?
Specifically - what does it mean to you?
I think loving people, blessing them, and worshipping the Father in Spirit and in Truth is "doing great things for God," i.e., living our lives as Christ would have us.
Obviously, that's not good enough for you.
So, what is doing "great things" for God mean to you?
What is it we should all be doing to make you and God happy?
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socks
Until you've sat a week on another man's couch, don't judge it.
There are some True Facts I would offer to be considered -
1.) how, when and where people got mixed up in TWI's activities has not always been a truly altruistic and inspired event and therefore it's probably better that those people aren't still doing anything "in the name of God" - I can only hope.
2.) some people came to TWI, liked it, then decided to try something else and left. Those people never get counted in any ex-Wayfer "What Are You Doing" Census taking.
3.) some of the things TWI offered were never meant or designed to BE a Lifetime of Visible Service That Can Be Applauded By Those Who Keep Track of Such Things. Like the "WOW" program. The WOW program wasn't really built to be something of incredible impact on a community - yeah, yeah - "Word Over Your Yard" or whatever program was being touted, but primarily it was for the "individual" and their own growth. You sign up, go WOW, have the year, then go "back" from whence you came or TO somewhere else and get right back on the Life Track.
4.) life has "seasons", cycles, change that reflects - well, that's the question isn't it? What does it reflect, at any given time. Lord knows there's no lack of Licensed Spiritual Analysts collating and interpreting the data for everyone. But that's a problem with having Religious Bean Counters - you can never be sure you have all the beans accounted for, for everyone.
5.) most of my friends that are ex-Wayfers are doing pretty cool things, certainly all of them aren't "pastoring" any churches, but doing quite a bit of "pastoring" of individuals, and have all ki-inds of interesting endeavors going on.
6.) Uptown1 is comparing these people they know - but who may not be getting a fair shake - they may actually be fine upstanding people. Perhaps we can get an Observation Committee to do some checking. Once we have a better idea of what uptown1 is doing, and what the ex-Wayfer community they know is doing, we can compare it to known data of other ex-Wayfer peop's in that age/gender/marital-status demographic and cross-reference it to similar groups in each decade of existence of the Way, staring in 1940.
(I know I know - I'm being extreme. Yeah....)
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Tom Strange
There's going to be another committee??? ...sheesh... I'm already on refreshments and set-up and advised on the find a couch to sit on committee...
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socks
Tom, you're already doing too much, man! but that's a great example you exude. I wish more people could be like you and take your example to heart. In fact, I'm totally relieved now because for awhile, well, I thought y'know, you were kinda just not....doin' anything. I was wrong - the Couch Committee is a TOTally worthy and AWEsome thing to be doing. TOTally COol.Just remember - refreshments and set up aren't Over and Above Doing, that's just what you owe, Basic Stuff ("b.s.") The Couch thing though - TOTally cool and awesome. You're DOING it!
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waterbuffalo
What a great paragraph, T-Bone!
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Linda Z
*blink blink*
Whew! For a second I thought you called TS "exDude." I must say, I was more than a little worried. That would be doing WAY too much!
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Neo
Hi all!
Has anybody thought maybe uptown1 is still in twi?
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Neo
By the way, Belle Love your post. If more believers had the heart you do then as you said so beautafuly
"cause THAT's where the living is and THAT'S where the blessings are for TRUE Christians."
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socks
Linda Z, Tom is All Dude All the Time, no question about it
Exude
verb
1 exude, exudate, transude, ooze out, ooze
release (a liquid) in drops or small quantities; "exude sweat through the pores"
2 exude
make apparent by one's mood or behaviour; "She exude great confidence"
This was on wordreference.com, and the typo notwithstanding (heck of a word there, can't use it too much) I was thinking of it along these lines, that Tom oozes "doing it-ness", doing stuff, being a real doer and not a not-doer. Not doing something is easy - see that thing to do? I'm not doing it. Doing stuff, TOTally like, different and all, and requires focus, concentration, committment, staying power, and all kinds of other godly and spiritually dynamic and real principles we can use in our everyday walks, today and all.
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waysider
DO DO DO
DO DO DO DO
DO DO DO
Huh? Oh, sorry.
Meant to post that on "Name That Tune".
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Sushi
Socks, actually it should be, "Never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes". That way if he gets mad, you're a mile away, and you have his shoes.
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Gilligan
I am pretty new here and have not finished reading reading everything, I guess I'm behind. It amazed me in reading the Clergy letter (still not done) about their meeting and collection of prophecies led by Nancy Berwid how much (totally?) they ask someone else for a prophecy. And no one ever talks about asking God directly for a Word of Knowledge and Word of Wisdom. Another comment was made somewhere about this ces model resembling the Roman Catholic priesthood who stood between you and God. I guess we are not good enough anymore to hear directly from God eh? (sarcasm in case anyone is wondering).
My other word of advice to you ces people if you want the conflict to subside is to just shut up for a couple of months. My gosh you people like to talk about each other and probably behind each others backs. Just put a sock in it (apologies Socks) and go take a homeless person a blanket and a meal.
CES/STF the ministry that fights together. Grow up!
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rich
I'm not angry – it's more like…amused…How much research has gone into the way you research? I am not surprised at the tone of your posts – it sounds to me like someone who is stuck in the TWI method of processing information. What TWI followers do is not research – but regurgitate the assumptions and point of view of TWI. So even when a follower leaves TWI – unless they start identifying the assumptions they absorbed – they continue to process information the same way with the same results and with the same accompanying side effects – like pride and hatred.
This would be a great quote for for the defimation trials.
Maybe they should have you as thier lawer T-bone. You could show the joury how stupid and out of touch the cult mentality has made them all.
Thanks for the insight, have been guilty of this myself at times.
RJ
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excathedra
oh the trials and tribulations of serving the lord
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Ham
I had a really, really bizarre dream last night..
one of those you wake up saying what the h*ll am I doing????
naw, better not say..
Somebody on the board at STFI might think it means something..
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Ham
If somebody really wanted to know, I would tell..
Naw, its not obcene or anything..
just, weird..
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