Coolwaters, this sums up some thoughts I have on this topic of personal prophecy, "prophets" and, hmm, that stuff. I wanted to post it, this seems a good spot!
The stuff below starts with the phrase, the "claim to prophecy". Although there are a lot of different interpretations of the gift(s) of the spirit, and the spirit in action I think there are two commonly accepted understandings of what the bible says about it, and they are actually similar to the language in PFAL and will sound familiar to any PFAL grad.
One is a spoken or written piece that a person gives that is uplifting, encouraging, helpful. "Generally" useful to the people hearing or reading it and specifically encouraging to them at that time. (this would be similar to what PFAL teaches as the "manifestation" of prophecy). It's not casual or off-handed, it's "inspired" and inspiring. People don't yawn and look at their watch. It has significance to them when they hear it, no one has to say it's helpful, they experience the help.
Two is a piece that is very specific, dealing with events and people, past or present. It isn't "close to right" or "almost completely correct", it's completely correct and offers information and encouragement that can't be known, if not in fact, in the way in which it's being expressed and put together. This is the "ministry" of prophecy in action.
In both cases, any Christian can offer the prophecy, at any time. A person doesn't have to be a "prophet" to do either. Anyone can do either, and a "prophet", a person specifically elected by God to maintain that kind of a function can and will do both also.
One thing about both, and any variation of them that could be described, is that some people will be particularly inspired to pursue them. Some won't.
There's a lot of examples in the bible of both. Jesus in the gospels is the best example. People identified Him in different ways - the son of God, a prophet, Teacher, Master, Messiah. You could say that everything He was and did was in service to God and the world, and the things He was and did served them.
Prophcey, like everything that God has offered His people, serves the same thing. The fruit of prophecy always brings people to Christ and to God. The affairs of this life that may be addressed or dealt with in prophecy aren't the primary goal or focus. The primary goal and focus is to always bring the recipients to God and Christ and a closer understanding and relationship with them.
Here's the stuff I wanted to post:
There are several tell-tale signs of the deliberate abuse of the claim to prophecy :
* when the leader starts making 'prophetic' announcements which have claim to any sort of binding effect on those followers.
* when the leader makes no specific claims, but followers are recording, collecting, or distributing what the leader says, with the claim that it is prophecy from God.
Either way, the problems are threefold.
1. the process of discernment is being pre-empted; the sayings are presumed to be from God, and thus anyone who uses the means of discernment on them is seen as doubting God.
2. it is used for ruling their lives. That is the role of doctrine, not prophecy. Doctrine properly comes from the long-established, revealed Word of God -- the Bible. Any other source of binding doctrine sooner or later stands against Scripture.
3. This problem is the most damning one: it draws attention toward the 'prophet' and away from Christ.
The term "discernment" is used, which I would describe as people thinking, considering, evaluating and prayerfully expecting consistent corroboration from their own hearts and spirit, and from God Himself.
What's described happens in a lot of settings where a person or people are allowed to become the "authorities" on what is or isn't truly from God. Whether it's a teacher, "prophet", council or collective group doing the authorization, the people of God, the congregation of the church that are the beneficiaries of spritiual gifts in action should always be particpants in the process, not just listeners and followers. Some will do that, of course.
Maturity and experience is really necessary for any kind of "prophecy" to occur. Definitely with any regularity. Otherwise you end up with what CES probably is experiencing - a lot of people who really don't know what they're doing and unable to know what's right or not and perfectly willing to accept another's "discernment".
A great example of that is Paul in Acts, when Agabus came to him and told him about what would happen if he went to Jerusalem. The group of people with them concurred and encouraged Paul along the lines to listen and not go. Agabus himself only told Paul, descriptively, what would happen if he did. Whether it was right for him to go or not was up to Paul to decide. They pressed him to not go, and it could be said the collective opinion of the others, perhaps inspired, was the he shouldn't. But Paul himself already knew clearly that his mission of outreach was going to incur some heavy persecution on himself to perform. So he certainly didn't proceed blindly at that point. In fact, it could be said that what Agabus told him reinforced what he already knew was possible, if not certain.
The point there that's interesting is that Paul wasn't above or beyond the reach of his fellow Christians. They felt free to speak their hearts and minds, openly and strongly. Paul carried on in the same environment.
Anyhoo, hopefully this is some food for thought. :)
Did Ya'll know that I am a charter of the 'SOCKs is Awesome" club? I am second or third or fifth behind Mrs Socks and a few others;) It is a not for profit organization with a corporate shell in Alameda California.
Thanks Socks..........you have a way with cutting to the heart of the matter.
Mstar-- how many times I have asked myself, why couldn't these guys(all our former twit leader types) take some time to really de-compress from the vey experience???....NO, NO they HAD to jump right in, be the pooh-baa cuz No-One possibly could have made it without some ex-way leader to guide them...
This from their literature:
“Perhaps for the first time since the life of the Apostle Paul, the truth of the Word of God is available to enough people that it will pierce the veil of darkness that has en-shrouded it”
No ego involved there, no sirree , never mind they had sketchy christian backgrounds, had jumped out of a severely disfunctional organization, took no time to regroup or rethink what they were doing but then they could also miraculously pass 2000 years of history and move directly to the top because of their own amazing direct pipeline to God that was better than anyone elses in all history
I have a hard time believing that anyone could be that entangled. emersed (and deceived)in how great they themselves are..
At least most medicine show salemen knew they were really selling a scam and it was just a show, these people actually seemed to be deluded by the hype that they wrote about themselves....
JAL's father was the top guy at Lilly Endowment in Indianapolis. The Lilly Endowment is charitable trust set up the Eli Lilly Company. I have heard that Mr. Lynn was involved in purchasing the former Indiana Way Home on Westfield Blvd in Indy. Mr. Lynn was certainly finacially able to purchase the home on his own. The Lilly Endowment is one of the top 5 endowments in country and as such is under much public scrutiny. The Lynns were very supportive of their son JAL, but the senior Mr. Lynn was a very professional guy. I am confident he did not get to where he was professionally, by giving the endowment's money away to a religious cult his son was involved in.
The stuff in bold isn't "mine". I have it in some stuff I've been reading and copying. It seemed to point to some very directly. The leveraging, yah, WW. It's inevitable when used for personal guidance, I think, it tiakes on sort of a "Dr. Phil-from he_ll" vibe. (nothing against the Phil-meister, but he's on TV, sells advertising and is The Philster, right? :) )
I personally believe in dreams and prophecy. I know a friend who wrote a big paper on it for school. If anyone is interested in it or the bibliography I can probably get it to you.
It would help if these groups did have some history aside from self ordained. There's a lot out there with respect to charismatic/pentacostal churches and there is a rich history. But some of these organizations like CES thinks they are the sole arbiter of "Truth" apart from the history. It's nothing new. Check out "Mine eyes have seen the Glory" for a history of this type of attitude.
While CES and others discount personal experience it is hard to fathom a Bible without individuals having personal experiences. The gentiles wouldn't have received admittance into the fold by Peter if God hadn't given him a vision. I think it is good to have a balance, but I can't say this ministry (CES/STFI) has it. With respect to these issues. Follow Jesus. Seek Jesus. Preach Jesus and him crucified and risen. All else is dust in the wind.
Oh so much reading! I'm loving this conversation. :)
I'm gonna zig and then zag back to the topic at hand...so try to follow along...if I'm making sense...if not...don't follow along...or whatever...I just don't wanna be a twig leader, OK???????????? :)
Back when I took piffle (the one and only time I took it, too...which will be 30 years ago this coming March...so maybe I don't remember so good...) I remember the 'my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge' part. The reason I remember it is that is the point I always walked out (3 or 4 times, as a matter of fact, before I could make myself sit through the whole class). It was the thing vp did with the logic. How he said that it was not a lack of knowledge of worldly stuff, but a lack of knowledge of da verd.
That gritched on me because I saw a closed thought process being introduced...and closed thought processes lead to closed minds lead to intolerance lead to hate lead to war lead to...well, you know.
The concept of prophecy and dreams and visions and such stuff is, really, mental gymnastics at best...diagnosable psychiatric conditions at worst.
So why is this stuff in the bible?
I dunno. Really, I don't.
BUT...
This trend towards dreams, visions and prophecies is talked about in the bible in a light not typically understood:
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Acts 2:17 KJV
Typically, this verse is seen as a promise or a sign that the end times are at hand and God's spirit is working double-time in His people.
But look at it again.
That passage is a direct quote from Joel 2...which is about the wrath of God...and the passage quoted above starts out in Joel with "AFTERWARD".
To me, it does not appear that "AFTERWARD" has come yet.
So whaddup?
I think that the lack of knowledge of anything outside of certain paradigms concerning the bible is whaddup.
Can't see the forest for the trees.
....ing against the wall.
Kicking against the pricks.
Or something...
Because outside of certain paradigms concerning the bible, the whole world gets it about dreams, visions and prophecies: the whole world gets it that these things are personal and NOT for the whole body or even a certain group or couple of friends.
And this would be painfully obvious if people would take the time to educate themselves beyond their own closed-mindedness.
I'm not pointing fingers...because I'm just now working out of my own false paradigms that led me to closed-mindedness.
So what I'm trying to say is that whenever a subject is taken and study from only one set of paradigms, the 'knowledge' gained is extremely limited and often flat out wrong. People end up becoming wise fools.
When wise fools take it upon themselves to control the lives of others...
Well, we all know what happens.
I so whole-heartedly agree that it would behoove anybody who had any position of authority in twi to TAKE ABOUT 10 YEARS OFF from 'leadership' to reevaluate themselves, their thought processes, their belief systems, etc.
You may come out of it with a lot bigger God than you had before.
Seems to me, for some folks, a real encounter with the Dvine can be poison. Instead of accepting it for what it is, they try to mold and craft the experience into their old religious shells It doesn't really fit unless you do a lot of hacking away.
One reason why is discount a lot of what goes on in TWI terms of "prophecy" anymore- I havent' seen it really produce the effects that it is supposed to do, as far as ICor 14 states. It is supposed to be a life changing encounter with the divine- not a "well, that's kinda neat" at best questionable experience, "was that really God" was usually my thought after hearing a bland, generic "I loves ya, ma people" message.
I have the same question, why is this stuff in the bible?
says we are supposed to covet to prophesy, forbid not to speak in tongues.. but I think to teach a way to produce prophecy on demand is flawed.
Seems others have a similar observation, that it doesn't have quite the impact that it is supposed to. "Well, it didn't QUITE work right there.. lets try it another way.."
Turn it into "personal prophecy" or some such nonsense- in CES it had an effect, not of edification, but unto destruction.
One troubling statement- "WE are looking closer at the personal prophecy thingy"..
what are they gonna do?
"Well, it didn't work quite so right that time. Hmmmmm.. let's try this..."
Alfacat you said in response to Mstar the following:
"Mstar-- how many times I have asked myself, why couldn't these guys(all our former twit leader types) take some time to really de-compress from the vey experience???....NO, NO they HAD to jump right in, be the pooh-baa cuz No-One possibly could have made it without some ex-way leader to guide them...
Reminds me of blind leaders of the blind..... "
I actually said something along these lines to Jal. but no, he couldn't see it. Right after he left TWI...
When I organized bringing RD out to tell the truth to our area with a wonderful believer, she and I were exposing the truth and the dark secrets. We were praying with people and giving love. She and I were offering God's love to the smitten and lost. And even though WE brought JAL out, he said, "Well we nned to get a hold of P@t P0we!! as he is the LEADER in the AREA. I said the leader appointed by TWI. He was not appointed by God. But JAL would not see past "appointed leadership", he could not connect with God's real troops. He was actually dipped in sh!t and enjoyed the smell, and sought out people who had the same stench. IMHO.
Even his X and I discussed JAL pulling out of "This" and allowing God to work in his life before he jumped right in -- I mentioned that is what Paul did taking around 14 years off to get it straight. But JAL was a locomotive with the track already laid by TWI, IMO. Well, the track is old and worn and the locomotive has no more track left. IMO
If he wants to remain a Moggie, he may have to go to God now for guidance. Not some loonies dreams, not some half baked doctrine sanctioned by the perverted old Doc. But GOD.
Go be alone with God for awhile... It has been the prevailing advice I have heard offered to him by the rank and file for years.
If he wants to remain a Moggie, he may have to go to God now for guidance. Not some loonies dreams, not some half baked doctrine sanctioned by the perverted old Doc. But GOD.
Alfacat you said in response to Mstar the following:
"Mstar-- how many times I have asked myself, why couldn't these guys(all our former twit leader types) take some time to really de-compress from the vey experience???....NO, NO they HAD to jump right in, be the pooh-baa cuz No-One possibly could have made it without some ex-way leader to guide them...
Reminds me of blind leaders of the blind..... "
I actually said something along these lines to Jal. but no, he couldn't see it. Right after he left TWI...
When I organized bringing RD out to tell the truth to our area with a wonderful believer, she and I were exposing the truth and the dark secrets. We were praying with people and giving love. She and I were offering God's love to the smitten and lost. And even though WE brought JAL out, he said, "Well we nned to get a hold of P@t P0we!! as he is the LEADER in the AREA. I said the leader appointed by TWI. He was not appointed by God. But JAL would not see past "appointed leadership", he could not connect with God's real troops. He was actually dipped in sh!t and enjoyed the smell, and sought out people who had the same stench. IMHO.
Even his X and I discussed JAL pulling out of "This" and allowing God to work in his life before he jumped right in -- I mentioned that is what Paul did taking around 14 years off to get it straight. But JAL was a locomotive with the track already laid by TWI, IMO. Well, the track is old and worn and the locomotive has no more track left. IMO
If he wants to remain a Moggie, he may have to go to God now for guidance. Not some loonies dreams, not some half baked doctrine sanctioned by the perverted old Doc. But GOD.
Go be alone with God for awhile... It has been the prevailing advice I have heard offered to him by the rank and file for years.
Dot - there was a bigger machine driving him - the money machine. These guys saw a vacuum and ran to fill it before someone else did.
That's what happens when you're more concerned about yourself than you are with God and His people.
As to why so many got so far down a dead end road....well they ignored the big, red signs that said,
DEAD END ROAD!
they ignored it every time they passed the signs, stuffed their doubts down deep in their souls, and kept looking for a way - any way that those signs could be wrong.
David had another man's wife and then murdered him - he turned around.
Paul traveled around murdering God's people - he turned around.
Etc, etc, etc.
Now that MG and crazy KA have been removed from leading CES it is possible that things could improve.
CES did have some good stuff. JAL's Romans tapes were pretty good. A Journey Through the Old Testament was a good teaching. One God and One Lord is an excellent book.
I don't see it as all bad. The pp stuff got out of hand with KA. But I think she's been silenced now.
I hold out hope that adults may begin acting like adults and respecting other adults and their boundaries.
That people will stop acting like mogs and just want to be regular christians hanging out with the other regular christians and actually loving people.
People will talk less and listen more. When they do speak they will speak more about the life and words of Jesus and less about theology.
People will spend more time volunteering at food banks and Habitat for Humanity and Literacy Programs.
People will spend more time having fun, going out dancing or throwing their own dance, etc.
People will try to remember what it was like being a little child in their Abba's arms.
If I'm understanding you correctly you're saying that CES really lost it on the people side of things.
This is no doubt due to their twi training. As my uncle always says, "It's hard to ignore your training."
An easy way out of this would be for CES to stay focused on the research side of things. Keep producing material like One God and One Lord and back off of the fellowship areas.
This would allow them to stick with their strong points.
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socks
Coolwaters, this sums up some thoughts I have on this topic of personal prophecy, "prophets" and, hmm, that stuff. I wanted to post it, this seems a good spot!
The stuff below starts with the phrase, the "claim to prophecy". Although there are a lot of different interpretations of the gift(s) of the spirit, and the spirit in action I think there are two commonly accepted understandings of what the bible says about it, and they are actually similar to the language in PFAL and will sound familiar to any PFAL grad.
One is a spoken or written piece that a person gives that is uplifting, encouraging, helpful. "Generally" useful to the people hearing or reading it and specifically encouraging to them at that time. (this would be similar to what PFAL teaches as the "manifestation" of prophecy). It's not casual or off-handed, it's "inspired" and inspiring. People don't yawn and look at their watch. It has significance to them when they hear it, no one has to say it's helpful, they experience the help.
Two is a piece that is very specific, dealing with events and people, past or present. It isn't "close to right" or "almost completely correct", it's completely correct and offers information and encouragement that can't be known, if not in fact, in the way in which it's being expressed and put together. This is the "ministry" of prophecy in action.
In both cases, any Christian can offer the prophecy, at any time. A person doesn't have to be a "prophet" to do either. Anyone can do either, and a "prophet", a person specifically elected by God to maintain that kind of a function can and will do both also.
One thing about both, and any variation of them that could be described, is that some people will be particularly inspired to pursue them. Some won't.
There's a lot of examples in the bible of both. Jesus in the gospels is the best example. People identified Him in different ways - the son of God, a prophet, Teacher, Master, Messiah. You could say that everything He was and did was in service to God and the world, and the things He was and did served them.
Prophcey, like everything that God has offered His people, serves the same thing. The fruit of prophecy always brings people to Christ and to God. The affairs of this life that may be addressed or dealt with in prophecy aren't the primary goal or focus. The primary goal and focus is to always bring the recipients to God and Christ and a closer understanding and relationship with them.
Here's the stuff I wanted to post:
There are several tell-tale signs of the deliberate abuse of the claim to prophecy :
* when the leader starts making 'prophetic' announcements which have claim to any sort of binding effect on those followers.
* when the leader makes no specific claims, but followers are recording, collecting, or distributing what the leader says, with the claim that it is prophecy from God.
Either way, the problems are threefold.
1. the process of discernment is being pre-empted; the sayings are presumed to be from God, and thus anyone who uses the means of discernment on them is seen as doubting God.
2. it is used for ruling their lives. That is the role of doctrine, not prophecy. Doctrine properly comes from the long-established, revealed Word of God -- the Bible. Any other source of binding doctrine sooner or later stands against Scripture.
3. This problem is the most damning one: it draws attention toward the 'prophet' and away from Christ.
The term "discernment" is used, which I would describe as people thinking, considering, evaluating and prayerfully expecting consistent corroboration from their own hearts and spirit, and from God Himself.
What's described happens in a lot of settings where a person or people are allowed to become the "authorities" on what is or isn't truly from God. Whether it's a teacher, "prophet", council or collective group doing the authorization, the people of God, the congregation of the church that are the beneficiaries of spritiual gifts in action should always be particpants in the process, not just listeners and followers. Some will do that, of course.
Maturity and experience is really necessary for any kind of "prophecy" to occur. Definitely with any regularity. Otherwise you end up with what CES probably is experiencing - a lot of people who really don't know what they're doing and unable to know what's right or not and perfectly willing to accept another's "discernment".
A great example of that is Paul in Acts, when Agabus came to him and told him about what would happen if he went to Jerusalem. The group of people with them concurred and encouraged Paul along the lines to listen and not go. Agabus himself only told Paul, descriptively, what would happen if he did. Whether it was right for him to go or not was up to Paul to decide. They pressed him to not go, and it could be said the collective opinion of the others, perhaps inspired, was the he shouldn't. But Paul himself already knew clearly that his mission of outreach was going to incur some heavy persecution on himself to perform. So he certainly didn't proceed blindly at that point. In fact, it could be said that what Agabus told him reinforced what he already knew was possible, if not certain.
The point there that's interesting is that Paul wasn't above or beyond the reach of his fellow Christians. They felt free to speak their hearts and minds, openly and strongly. Paul carried on in the same environment.
Anyhoo, hopefully this is some food for thought. :)
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excathedra
"I've seen love turn to dust, I had almost given up.
But your love was like a cool rain comin' down on me.
From above, just like a cool rain in my hour of need.
Let your love rain down on me."
Jack Mack and the Heart Atacks
--
'bout the best prophecy i heard all day damn it
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socks
Oh, you should hear the song. Have you heard it? It's well, it's great. Just great.
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washingtonweather
SOCKS--- OMgaawd---that is just like the book Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse....,amazing how these prophecy things get used for such leverage...
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Radar OReilly
Did Ya'll know that I am a charter of the 'SOCKs is Awesome" club? I am second or third or fifth behind Mrs Socks and a few others;) It is a not for profit organization with a corporate shell in Alameda California.
Thanks Socks..........you have a way with cutting to the heart of the matter.
Radar
Soques.........estas muy magnifico y guapo!
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mstar1
No ego involved there, no sirree
, never mind they had sketchy christian backgrounds, had jumped out of a severely disfunctional organization, took no time to regroup or rethink what they were doing but then they could also miraculously pass 2000 years of history and move directly to the top because of their own amazing direct pipeline to God that was better than anyone elses in all history
I have a hard time believing that anyone could be that entangled. emersed (and deceived)in how great they themselves are..
At least most medicine show salemen knew they were really selling a scam and it was just a show, these people actually seemed to be deluded by the hype that they wrote about themselves....
Can you say "Pride comes before the fall?
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Calflor
Vegan XTC,
JAL's father was the top guy at Lilly Endowment in Indianapolis. The Lilly Endowment is charitable trust set up the Eli Lilly Company. I have heard that Mr. Lynn was involved in purchasing the former Indiana Way Home on Westfield Blvd in Indy. Mr. Lynn was certainly finacially able to purchase the home on his own. The Lilly Endowment is one of the top 5 endowments in country and as such is under much public scrutiny. The Lynns were very supportive of their son JAL, but the senior Mr. Lynn was a very professional guy. I am confident he did not get to where he was professionally, by giving the endowment's money away to a religious cult his son was involved in.
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socks
Oh my Radar! Well, thanks.
Just some stuff.
The stuff in bold isn't "mine". I have it in some stuff I've been reading and copying. It seemed to point to some very directly. The leveraging, yah, WW. It's inevitable when used for personal guidance, I think, it tiakes on sort of a "Dr. Phil-from he_ll" vibe. (nothing against the Phil-meister, but he's on TV, sells advertising and is The Philster, right? :) )
G'day!
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soulsurfer
I personally believe in dreams and prophecy. I know a friend who wrote a big paper on it for school. If anyone is interested in it or the bibliography I can probably get it to you.
It would help if these groups did have some history aside from self ordained. There's a lot out there with respect to charismatic/pentacostal churches and there is a rich history. But some of these organizations like CES thinks they are the sole arbiter of "Truth" apart from the history. It's nothing new. Check out "Mine eyes have seen the Glory" for a history of this type of attitude.
While CES and others discount personal experience it is hard to fathom a Bible without individuals having personal experiences. The gentiles wouldn't have received admittance into the fold by Peter if God hadn't given him a vision. I think it is good to have a balance, but I can't say this ministry (CES/STFI) has it. With respect to these issues. Follow Jesus. Seek Jesus. Preach Jesus and him crucified and risen. All else is dust in the wind.
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washingtonweather
I don't think my dreams are ever for dumping into anothers life and manipulating it tho'
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VeganXTC
Thanks Calflor!
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pond
yeah im more of the drag me till i stop screaming type .
crap i do not dream!!!
does this mean God doesnt love me?
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CoolWaters
Oh so much reading! I'm loving this conversation. :)
I'm gonna zig and then zag back to the topic at hand...so try to follow along...if I'm making sense...if not...don't follow along...or whatever...I just don't wanna be a twig leader, OK???????????? :)
Back when I took piffle (the one and only time I took it, too...which will be 30 years ago this coming March...so maybe I don't remember so good...) I remember the 'my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge' part. The reason I remember it is that is the point I always walked out (3 or 4 times, as a matter of fact, before I could make myself sit through the whole class). It was the thing vp did with the logic. How he said that it was not a lack of knowledge of worldly stuff, but a lack of knowledge of da verd.
That gritched on me because I saw a closed thought process being introduced...and closed thought processes lead to closed minds lead to intolerance lead to hate lead to war lead to...well, you know.
The concept of prophecy and dreams and visions and such stuff is, really, mental gymnastics at best...diagnosable psychiatric conditions at worst.
So why is this stuff in the bible?
I dunno. Really, I don't.
BUT...
This trend towards dreams, visions and prophecies is talked about in the bible in a light not typically understood:
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Acts 2:17 KJV
Typically, this verse is seen as a promise or a sign that the end times are at hand and God's spirit is working double-time in His people.
But look at it again.
That passage is a direct quote from Joel 2...which is about the wrath of God...and the passage quoted above starts out in Joel with "AFTERWARD".
To me, it does not appear that "AFTERWARD" has come yet.
So whaddup?
I think that the lack of knowledge of anything outside of certain paradigms concerning the bible is whaddup.
Can't see the forest for the trees.
....ing against the wall.
Kicking against the pricks.
Or something...
Because outside of certain paradigms concerning the bible, the whole world gets it about dreams, visions and prophecies: the whole world gets it that these things are personal and NOT for the whole body or even a certain group or couple of friends.
And this would be painfully obvious if people would take the time to educate themselves beyond their own closed-mindedness.
I'm not pointing fingers...because I'm just now working out of my own false paradigms that led me to closed-mindedness.
So what I'm trying to say is that whenever a subject is taken and study from only one set of paradigms, the 'knowledge' gained is extremely limited and often flat out wrong. People end up becoming wise fools.
When wise fools take it upon themselves to control the lives of others...
Well, we all know what happens.
I so whole-heartedly agree that it would behoove anybody who had any position of authority in twi to TAKE ABOUT 10 YEARS OFF from 'leadership' to reevaluate themselves, their thought processes, their belief systems, etc.
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Ham
The time taken off may be time well spent.
You may come out of it with a lot bigger God than you had before.
Seems to me, for some folks, a real encounter with the Dvine can be poison. Instead of accepting it for what it is, they try to mold and craft the experience into their old religious shells It doesn't really fit unless you do a lot of hacking away.
One reason why is discount a lot of what goes on in TWI terms of "prophecy" anymore- I havent' seen it really produce the effects that it is supposed to do, as far as ICor 14 states. It is supposed to be a life changing encounter with the divine- not a "well, that's kinda neat" at best questionable experience, "was that really God" was usually my thought after hearing a bland, generic "I loves ya, ma people" message.
I have the same question, why is this stuff in the bible?
says we are supposed to covet to prophesy, forbid not to speak in tongues.. but I think to teach a way to produce prophecy on demand is flawed.
Seems others have a similar observation, that it doesn't have quite the impact that it is supposed to. "Well, it didn't QUITE work right there.. lets try it another way.."
Turn it into "personal prophecy" or some such nonsense- in CES it had an effect, not of edification, but unto destruction.
One troubling statement- "WE are looking closer at the personal prophecy thingy"..
what are they gonna do?
"Well, it didn't work quite so right that time. Hmmmmm.. let's try this..."
Here we go again.
Sheesh.
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Dot Matrix
Alfacat you said in response to Mstar the following:
"Mstar-- how many times I have asked myself, why couldn't these guys(all our former twit leader types) take some time to really de-compress from the vey experience???....NO, NO they HAD to jump right in, be the pooh-baa cuz No-One possibly could have made it without some ex-way leader to guide them...
Reminds me of blind leaders of the blind..... "
I actually said something along these lines to Jal. but no, he couldn't see it. Right after he left TWI...
When I organized bringing RD out to tell the truth to our area with a wonderful believer, she and I were exposing the truth and the dark secrets. We were praying with people and giving love. She and I were offering God's love to the smitten and lost. And even though WE brought JAL out, he said, "Well we nned to get a hold of P@t P0we!! as he is the LEADER in the AREA. I said the leader appointed by TWI. He was not appointed by God. But JAL would not see past "appointed leadership", he could not connect with God's real troops. He was actually dipped in sh!t and enjoyed the smell, and sought out people who had the same stench. IMHO.
Even his X and I discussed JAL pulling out of "This" and allowing God to work in his life before he jumped right in -- I mentioned that is what Paul did taking around 14 years off to get it straight. But JAL was a locomotive with the track already laid by TWI, IMO. Well, the track is old and worn and the locomotive has no more track left. IMO
If he wants to remain a Moggie, he may have to go to God now for guidance. Not some loonies dreams, not some half baked doctrine sanctioned by the perverted old Doc. But GOD.
Go be alone with God for awhile... It has been the prevailing advice I have heard offered to him by the rank and file for years.
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Abigail
I asked this in another thread, but thought I would ask it here as well.
Can anyone show me a Biblical example of a "council of prophets"?
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Ham
Yeah.. I know where there was a council of 450 of them..
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Abigail
Exactly!
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Ham
I had a REAL strange dream last night..
All of those mechnical pencils I lost over the years came back to haunt me..
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Sushi
Surely, thou jesteth, Dot.
In other words, don't go away mad, just go away.
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doojable
Dot - there was a bigger machine driving him - the money machine. These guys saw a vacuum and ran to fill it before someone else did.
That's what happens when you're more concerned about yourself than you are with God and His people.
As to why so many got so far down a dead end road....well they ignored the big, red signs that said,
DEAD END ROAD!
they ignored it every time they passed the signs, stuffed their doubts down deep in their souls, and kept looking for a way - any way that those signs could be wrong.
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uptown1
David had another man's wife and then murdered him - he turned around.
Paul traveled around murdering God's people - he turned around.
Etc, etc, etc.
Now that MG and crazy KA have been removed from leading CES it is possible that things could improve.
CES did have some good stuff. JAL's Romans tapes were pretty good. A Journey Through the Old Testament was a good teaching. One God and One Lord is an excellent book.
I don't see it as all bad. The pp stuff got out of hand with KA. But I think she's been silenced now.
Do any of you hold out any hope for things?
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richnchrispy
I hold out hope that adults may begin acting like adults and respecting other adults and their boundaries.
That people will stop acting like mogs and just want to be regular christians hanging out with the other regular christians and actually loving people.
People will talk less and listen more. When they do speak they will speak more about the life and words of Jesus and less about theology.
People will spend more time volunteering at food banks and Habitat for Humanity and Literacy Programs.
People will spend more time having fun, going out dancing or throwing their own dance, etc.
People will try to remember what it was like being a little child in their Abba's arms.
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uptown1
Rich,
If I'm understanding you correctly you're saying that CES really lost it on the people side of things.
This is no doubt due to their twi training. As my uncle always says, "It's hard to ignore your training."
An easy way out of this would be for CES to stay focused on the research side of things. Keep producing material like One God and One Lord and back off of the fellowship areas.
This would allow them to stick with their strong points.
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