"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Lord Acton
That might be the first step in the wrong direction. No real surrender to the Lord and His will, then you got a will to be large and in charge..........
But you are right Cool, what is the motive from the beginning? Was it to find Jesus?
I know for most of us, it was. We just went were we thought he was.
I am not going to judge their heart, God will though.
All I know, is that the fruit smells awful, and I will not eat of it!
I wonder if CES leaders who ended up finding the crap that's been posted here were ever looking for Jesus or God in the first place.
Interesting question and worth repeating.
I only read part of the (bleckkk!!) "prophecies" and papers and they seemed very concerned with 'protecting the ministry'as a prime motive, even willing to sacrifice their own to do it...
Gee--where have i heard that before??
Like father like son.
From the beginning building a ministry and retaining their personal celebrity was way out in front for them.
How much time did they take off to consider and change their longtime error in TWI before they pronounced themselves leaders again and started up as CES ?
A few months?
/rolleyes
Yeah OK-rrrigghttttt
Whatever people do in their own personal lives for spiritual growth is fine with me, but imo once they take upon themselves the mantle of 'Leadership", to me they have already erred, desiring to be something that they are not.
'they love to have the chief seats in the synagogue" etc. and be the top dogs.
To me that screams 'stay away" and is bound for whole huge heaps of trouble.
IMO it was part of the carryover from TWI where celebrity and personal power, with a very thin veneer of spirituality were more sought after than anything actually spiiritual in nature, and 'protecting the ministry', building the institution and the personal power and egos of the top dogs was always practiced rather than any genuine continued searching for Christ.
That all being said i dont hold anything against them.. Lord knows I make plenty of my own mistakes-everyone does-- but I also dont set myself up as some spiritual leader who has 'the truth' either, or hold it over people. Already did that in TWI--never again--thank you--
I'm not one to point fingers and say the individuals in CES are wrong, but I will point and say the fruit and mess they made is not of God...
I make plenty of mistakes and will probably continue till the day I die, unfortunately. But there are two things I will never do. I will never have people follow me or trust me for guidance - cause Christ is our leader, and I will never start my own "organzations" claiming to have something I do not - clearer visions - for we all see through a dark piece of glass.
I may offer advice, but I am not your adviser, I may start a work that others may continue in, but I am not the administrator of that work.
Perhaps some of these guys in CES did indeed see "something" out there.
Perhaps they were too rational to accept it for what it was.
Can't exactly bottle it and sell it, but it appears that they have tried.. "five simple steps to ecstasy, a bargain at $50.00 per seminar (or whatever the current selling price is)"
Its not limited to TWI, or the offshoots either. I read some advertisements for commercial kabbalism, and they read EXACTLY like the claims for PFAL and the offshoots seminars, only with the words "bible" and "kabbalah" interchanged.
Same for witchcraft, casting spells, etc.
I think our rational approach to life DEMANDS an explanation of anything out of the ordinary.
Sadly, I think most settle with the wrong one. See a vision, build a church, start a cult..
...And let's not forget something here...the top dogs of CES are not kids. These people have been involved with "Christian" ministry for what?...30-35 years! They are older folks who should know better.
There's a multitude of variations in Christian doctrines and practices throughout denominational Christianity....but these variations are usually small and not that significant when it comes to practical living.
These guys in CES are reaching...reaching out for some very powerful and large differences than the mainstream...why? First Momentus, then personal prophesy, now dream interpretations!...JAL even went off for awhile denying that God has foreknowledge because it made him stand out.
I believe that they have this "need" to feel superior...superior in their "spirituality", superior in their knowledge and most of all, superior in their egos...it's all about THEM donchaknow...
Doing the things that the average Christian does is simply not good enough for them. They seem to have a desire to stand out and be superior to other churches...and from my view, that stinks. They are denying the workings of the body of Christ with Christ as the head...they need to be the ones who show the rest of us the things we were not "able" to understand without THEIR guidence...it's about control...and they got this mindset from Wierwille IMHO.
Spiritual growth comes from the individual seeking...from an individual relationship with the Lord...not from corporate guidance and being controlled by the ever wise gurus.
I have no problem with an individual exploring their own dreams or prophecies/divinations etc for their own insight.Before I left TWI I had a vision or dream of my HFC with the teeth of a wolf, running with his wife and another woman in the fellowship, like a pack of wolves, and the other Twits in the fellowship cowered before them. It certainly helped me be on my guard at a time when I neede to be...
But once 'leadership' becomes an authority to be obeyed --"Do what I tell you and your life will be fixed" things get ugly. Doesn't really matter what method--dreams, discerning of spirits, present truth...Sad fact is, people don't 'fix' that easily, especially not from just being told to be fixed, and sometimes what a leader wants fixed is all in the leader's imagination...
... Because of this, I wonder if CES leaders who ended up finding the crap that's been posted here were ever looking for Jesus or God in the first place.
I don't think these folks have departed from the faith; but, have espoused a deadly doctrine.
I think if they get rid of the "prophetic counsel" and "personal prophecy" and get back to the simple truth that manifestions of the spirit are about edification, exhortation and comfort (I Cor 14:3); they'd hit a home run.
Now we need one of the word leader and leadership and leading. Oh in the NT it most closely fits with the blind leading the blind......Bop me in the head if I am wrong.
So what is our model? Jesus said something about being servants. Now what could that possibly mean?
Being part of a community where people lead based upon their gifts and which gift is needed today. And not based upon who has a title? If there is no centralized leader role held by one two or three people then no one can steal it. Poof the fear is gone. If there is need for structure the fulltime people are administrators not leaders or rulers. If there is a need for a board, the board presents issues to the community for votes. Not "this is my ministry, I built it and no one is taking it from me!"
A community where hey not the leader's home, but some old lady's home needs repaired and we go together and fix it. We get some bags of groceries together for someone down on their luck and fill the fridge.
The important thing is we all ask God and Jesus "hey what is on the agenda for today Lord?"
And the amazing thing is our question will be answered.
The most important doctrines are the two great commandments. If it takes all day to fulfil those two, then we just start over again in the morning on just those two, and ask God and Jesus for what is sufficient for today. Keep living this way until we understand a little bit about the sermon on the mount.
You've just pretty closely described the church I attend now. Which, btw, is where I'm seeing the most actual healing from twi and other stuff in my life.
think if they get rid of the "prophetic counsel" and "personal prophecy" and get back to the simple truth that manifestions of the spirit are about edification, exhortation and comfort (I Cor 14:3); they'd hit a home run.
What would be the matter with getting some Christain education somewhere, leaving all the splashy hocus pocus behind, shutting down, and moving on ?
What is the appeal of these self ordained groups, with no roots at all, (other than cultic) that claim to speak for God and always end up in hot water.
I dont see it.
They have no established or successful roots but a short history that has always turned out bad.
I would hope after being around the same block (twice!!), that they may finally wake up, smell the coffee, take an honest look ( I wont be holding my breath on that one) and shut it down, then do their personal searching elsewhere realizing that they have spent the greater parts of their lives plowing a road to nowhere.
In John's words to us--Its time to come down off their throne and "get a life"
What would be the matter with getting some Christain education somewhere, leaving all the splashy hocus pocus behind, shutting down, and moving on ?
What is the appeal of these self ordained groups, with no roots at all, (other than cultic) that claim to speak for God and always end up in hot water.
I dont see it.
I would hope after being around the same block (twice!!), that they may finally wake up and shut it down, and do their personal searching elsewhere realizing that they have spent the greater parts of their lives plowing a road to nowhere.
In John's words to us--Its time to come down off their throne and "get a life"
Interesting point mstar... I've been thinking alot about that lately... it seems that in these "groups" we all seemed to be stricken with a bad case of "gotta-be-right-us"... (the need to never be wrong)... I think what Rich (or Crispy) said:
The most important doctrines are the two great commandments. If it takes all day to fulfil those two, then we just start over again in the morning on just those two, and ask God and Jesus for what is sufficient for today. Keep living this way until we understand a little bit about the sermon on the mount.
...I think what you and Richncrispy are saying ties in with what socks was saying in his suggestion to "find a local church... I think it's all about the heart... and I think that's why churches (most of them) are good at this... the churches pastors are more 'caretakers of folks' for the most part... helping organize, tending to needs, etc than all fired up to make it their main purpose in life being right...
They (the right churches) provide a place where folks can serve their fellow man in whatever way they see fit... it takes a lot for us to get rid of the gotta-be-right-us attitude that was drummed into our heads as the only way to walk... funny, I don't remember any accounts of Jesus walking that way...
...I also think part of our (all of us) reluctance to seek out or attend a church is because of the negatives about churches pounded into us in TWI and offshoots...
We had it pounded into us to seek our answers and guidance from them... when all along the answer has always been in our own heart, right where God put it...
I'm a big one for reading the Bible at fellowship. Then let everyone comment. read 1 2 or 3 chapters, the entire sermon on the mount. Or comment during the reading, then continue.
Don't like the teaching where someone grabs 2-10 short scriptures, wraps their own interpretation onto it and then expounds for 1-2 hours. For one thing I think most of these type teachings could be 2-10 scriptures and 5-10 minutes of comments, followed by comments by the fellowship members.
I am also totally in favor of some topics being handled like discussion groups with continuous back and forth rather than one person talking for an hour.
I still think the major job of one of God's servants is to stir up the spirit inside of people. Too much american classroom technique instilled in our churches and in us ex-wayers. Adults should sit together and break bread and converse.
99% of teachers are not good enough to keep people interested in a one way sermon for longer than 10-15 minutes.
I went to a few CES fellowships early on...I always liked John Lynn. But then I had a daughter...I could not expose her to the weirdness (momentus/personal prophesy). We took her to the Methodist Church and exposed her to loving and kind people without all the oddities and interference in our lives.
On a related note...JAL's parents are some of the most wonderful people I have ever met. They were extremely sucessful people, highly respected in the community. It always gave me hope that their example of normalicy would one day be practiced by more believers who had the privilege of getting to know them. They were truly one of the great family's of my early TWI years.
I believe that they have this "need" to feel superior...superior in their "spirituality", superior in their knowledge and most of all, superior in their egos...it's all about THEM donchaknow...
From Tom:
it seems that in these "groups" we all seemed to be stricken with a bad case of "gotta-be-right-us"... (the need to never be wrong)
which all seems to me to be the antithesis of the christianity that I read about, and have experienced in local churches around the country. It ook a long time for me to undo that mess that was pummelled into my head in wayworld
They (the right churches) provide a place where folks can serve their fellow man in whatever way they see fit... it takes a lot for us to get rid of the gotta-be-right-us attitude that was drummed into our heads as the only way to walk... funny, I don't remember any accounts of Jesus walking that way...
...I also think part of our (all of us) reluctance to seek out or attend a church is because of the negatives about churches pounded into us in TWI and offshoots...
We had it pounded into us to seek our answers and guidance from them... when all along the answer has always been in our own heart, right where God put it...
I remember talk about JAL's parents buying the Limb home for The Way of Indiana. Something about using Eli Lily money instead of their own for the purchase. Did you hear anything about that? Did that happen?
I never met his folks, but I spent way too much time with JAL. I didn't care too much for him. But I didn't know him during his CES time.
I only read part of the (bleckkk!!) "prophecies" and papers and they seemed very concerned with 'protecting the ministry'as a prime motive, even willing to sacrifice their own to do it...
Gee--where have i heard that before??
Like father like son.
From the beginning building a ministry and retaining their personal celebrity was way out in front for them.
How much time did they take off to consider and change their longtime error in TWI before they pronounced themselves leaders again and started up as CES ?
A few months?
/rolleyes
Yeah OK-rrrigghttttt
Whatever people do in their own personal lives for spiritual growth is fine with me, but imo once they take upon themselves the mantle of 'Leadership", to me they have already erred, desiring to be something that they are not.
'they love to have the chief seats in the synagogue" etc. and be the top dogs.
To me that screams 'stay away" and is bound for whole huge heaps of trouble.
IMO it was part of the carryover from TWI where celebrity and personal power, with a very thin veneer of spirituality were more sought after than anything actually spiiritual in nature, and 'protecting the ministry', building the institution and the personal power and egos of the top dogs was always practiced rather than any genuine continued searching for Christ.
That all being said i dont hold anything against them.. Lord knows I make plenty of my own mistakes-everyone does-- but I also dont set myself up as some spiritual leader who has 'the truth' either, or hold it over people. Already did that in TWI--never again--thank you--
IMO that was their error and their "idol'.
just my opinion--YMMV
Mstar-- how many times I have asked myself, why couldn't these guys(all our former twit leader types) take some time to really de-compress from the vey experience???....NO, NO they HAD to jump right in, be the pooh-baa cuz No-One possibly could have made it without some ex-way leader to guide them... <_< :unsure:
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bliss
"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Lord Acton
That might be the first step in the wrong direction. No real surrender to the Lord and His will, then you got a will to be large and in charge..........
But you are right Cool, what is the motive from the beginning? Was it to find Jesus?
I know for most of us, it was. We just went were we thought he was.
I am not going to judge their heart, God will though.
All I know, is that the fruit smells awful, and I will not eat of it!
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mstar1
Interesting question and worth repeating.
I only read part of the (bleckkk!!) "prophecies" and papers and they seemed very concerned with 'protecting the ministry'as a prime motive, even willing to sacrifice their own to do it...
Gee--where have i heard that before??
Like father like son.
From the beginning building a ministry and retaining their personal celebrity was way out in front for them.
How much time did they take off to consider and change their longtime error in TWI before they pronounced themselves leaders again and started up as CES ?
A few months?
/rolleyes
Yeah OK-rrrigghttttt
Whatever people do in their own personal lives for spiritual growth is fine with me, but imo once they take upon themselves the mantle of 'Leadership", to me they have already erred, desiring to be something that they are not.
'they love to have the chief seats in the synagogue" etc. and be the top dogs.
To me that screams 'stay away" and is bound for whole huge heaps of trouble.
IMO it was part of the carryover from TWI where celebrity and personal power, with a very thin veneer of spirituality were more sought after than anything actually spiiritual in nature, and 'protecting the ministry', building the institution and the personal power and egos of the top dogs was always practiced rather than any genuine continued searching for Christ.
That all being said i dont hold anything against them.. Lord knows I make plenty of my own mistakes-everyone does-- but I also dont set myself up as some spiritual leader who has 'the truth' either, or hold it over people. Already did that in TWI--never again--thank you--
IMO that was their error and their "idol'.
just my opinion--YMMV
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TrustAndObey
MStar,
Agreed! Good post...
I'm not one to point fingers and say the individuals in CES are wrong, but I will point and say the fruit and mess they made is not of God...
I make plenty of mistakes and will probably continue till the day I die, unfortunately. But there are two things I will never do. I will never have people follow me or trust me for guidance - cause Christ is our leader, and I will never start my own "organzations" claiming to have something I do not - clearer visions - for we all see through a dark piece of glass.
I may offer advice, but I am not your adviser, I may start a work that others may continue in, but I am not the administrator of that work.
Follow God, or follow man.. Really simple choice.
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Tom Strange
Heck, I will... I'll tell 'em to their face... just as I'd hope someone would do to me if I ever tried something so looney...
But that's just me...
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Ham
For what it is worth..
Perhaps some of these guys in CES did indeed see "something" out there.
Perhaps they were too rational to accept it for what it was.
Can't exactly bottle it and sell it, but it appears that they have tried.. "five simple steps to ecstasy, a bargain at $50.00 per seminar (or whatever the current selling price is)"
Its not limited to TWI, or the offshoots either. I read some advertisements for commercial kabbalism, and they read EXACTLY like the claims for PFAL and the offshoots seminars, only with the words "bible" and "kabbalah" interchanged.
Same for witchcraft, casting spells, etc.
I think our rational approach to life DEMANDS an explanation of anything out of the ordinary.
Sadly, I think most settle with the wrong one. See a vision, build a church, start a cult..
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GrouchoMarxJr
...And let's not forget something here...the top dogs of CES are not kids. These people have been involved with "Christian" ministry for what?...30-35 years! They are older folks who should know better.
There's a multitude of variations in Christian doctrines and practices throughout denominational Christianity....but these variations are usually small and not that significant when it comes to practical living.
These guys in CES are reaching...reaching out for some very powerful and large differences than the mainstream...why? First Momentus, then personal prophesy, now dream interpretations!...JAL even went off for awhile denying that God has foreknowledge because it made him stand out.
I believe that they have this "need" to feel superior...superior in their "spirituality", superior in their knowledge and most of all, superior in their egos...it's all about THEM donchaknow...
Doing the things that the average Christian does is simply not good enough for them. They seem to have a desire to stand out and be superior to other churches...and from my view, that stinks. They are denying the workings of the body of Christ with Christ as the head...they need to be the ones who show the rest of us the things we were not "able" to understand without THEIR guidence...it's about control...and they got this mindset from Wierwille IMHO.
Spiritual growth comes from the individual seeking...from an individual relationship with the Lord...not from corporate guidance and being controlled by the ever wise gurus.
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Bramble
I have no problem with an individual exploring their own dreams or prophecies/divinations etc for their own insight.Before I left TWI I had a vision or dream of my HFC with the teeth of a wolf, running with his wife and another woman in the fellowship, like a pack of wolves, and the other Twits in the fellowship cowered before them. It certainly helped me be on my guard at a time when I neede to be...
But once 'leadership' becomes an authority to be obeyed --"Do what I tell you and your life will be fixed" things get ugly. Doesn't really matter what method--dreams, discerning of spirits, present truth...Sad fact is, people don't 'fix' that easily, especially not from just being told to be fixed, and sometimes what a leader wants fixed is all in the leader's imagination...
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oldiesman
I don't think these folks have departed from the faith; but, have espoused a deadly doctrine.
I think if they get rid of the "prophetic counsel" and "personal prophecy" and get back to the simple truth that manifestions of the spirit are about edification, exhortation and comfort (I Cor 14:3); they'd hit a home run.
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Tom Strange
That's a possibility OM... but with different leaders... I know I wouldn't be able to trust those folks...
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richnchrispy
John S. did a word study of "adultery"
Now we need one of the word leader and leadership and leading. Oh in the NT it most closely fits with the blind leading the blind......Bop me in the head if I am wrong.
So what is our model? Jesus said something about being servants. Now what could that possibly mean?
Being part of a community where people lead based upon their gifts and which gift is needed today. And not based upon who has a title? If there is no centralized leader role held by one two or three people then no one can steal it. Poof the fear is gone. If there is need for structure the fulltime people are administrators not leaders or rulers. If there is a need for a board, the board presents issues to the community for votes. Not "this is my ministry, I built it and no one is taking it from me!"
A community where hey not the leader's home, but some old lady's home needs repaired and we go together and fix it. We get some bags of groceries together for someone down on their luck and fill the fridge.
The important thing is we all ask God and Jesus "hey what is on the agenda for today Lord?"
And the amazing thing is our question will be answered.
The most important doctrines are the two great commandments. If it takes all day to fulfil those two, then we just start over again in the morning on just those two, and ask God and Jesus for what is sufficient for today. Keep living this way until we understand a little bit about the sermon on the mount.
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CoolWaters
You've just pretty closely described the church I attend now. Which, btw, is where I'm seeing the most actual healing from twi and other stuff in my life.
Hmmmm!
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mstar1
What would be the matter with getting some Christain education somewhere, leaving all the splashy hocus pocus behind, shutting down, and moving on ?
What is the appeal of these self ordained groups, with no roots at all, (other than cultic) that claim to speak for God and always end up in hot water.
I dont see it.
They have no established or successful roots but a short history that has always turned out bad.
I would hope after being around the same block (twice!!), that they may finally wake up, smell the coffee, take an honest look ( I wont be holding my breath on that one) and shut it down, then do their personal searching elsewhere realizing that they have spent the greater parts of their lives plowing a road to nowhere.
In John's words to us--Its time to come down off their throne and "get a life"
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CoolWaters
Yeah! What you said. It bears repeating.
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Tom Strange
Interesting point mstar... I've been thinking alot about that lately... it seems that in these "groups" we all seemed to be stricken with a bad case of "gotta-be-right-us"... (the need to never be wrong)... I think what Rich (or Crispy) said:
...I think what you and Richncrispy are saying ties in with what socks was saying in his suggestion to "find a local church... I think it's all about the heart... and I think that's why churches (most of them) are good at this... the churches pastors are more 'caretakers of folks' for the most part... helping organize, tending to needs, etc than all fired up to make it their main purpose in life being right...
They (the right churches) provide a place where folks can serve their fellow man in whatever way they see fit... it takes a lot for us to get rid of the gotta-be-right-us attitude that was drummed into our heads as the only way to walk... funny, I don't remember any accounts of Jesus walking that way...
...I also think part of our (all of us) reluctance to seek out or attend a church is because of the negatives about churches pounded into us in TWI and offshoots...
We had it pounded into us to seek our answers and guidance from them... when all along the answer has always been in our own heart, right where God put it...
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oldiesman
I don't see why its good to shut it down, as long as the false doctrine (that now has been quite adequately exposed) gets thrown out.
I agree that different leaders may be necessary, if the current ones won't abandon the false doctrine and/or can't be trusted by folks.
If they admit the error and have a desire to move on with the things of the Lord, they deserve to continue unabated.
Our God is a merciful God.
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Ham
Didn't exactly work with der vey..
Usually, those doing the exposing were the "item" thrown out.
Let's see if history repeats itself..
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richnchrispy
I'm a big one for reading the Bible at fellowship. Then let everyone comment. read 1 2 or 3 chapters, the entire sermon on the mount. Or comment during the reading, then continue.
Don't like the teaching where someone grabs 2-10 short scriptures, wraps their own interpretation onto it and then expounds for 1-2 hours. For one thing I think most of these type teachings could be 2-10 scriptures and 5-10 minutes of comments, followed by comments by the fellowship members.
I am also totally in favor of some topics being handled like discussion groups with continuous back and forth rather than one person talking for an hour.
I still think the major job of one of God's servants is to stir up the spirit inside of people. Too much american classroom technique instilled in our churches and in us ex-wayers. Adults should sit together and break bread and converse.
99% of teachers are not good enough to keep people interested in a one way sermon for longer than 10-15 minutes.
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ex10
That was well said, Rich or Chrispy. Gosh, one might think we went to the same "fellowship." ;)
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Ham
I would agree. 18 hour seminars on "dispensational truth" or "discerning of spirits" need not apply
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sprawled out
right, mstar! a REAL life, like real people. with a REAL job! then come back to me after 10 or 15 years and maybe we'll talk.
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Calflor
I went to a few CES fellowships early on...I always liked John Lynn. But then I had a daughter...I could not expose her to the weirdness (momentus/personal prophesy). We took her to the Methodist Church and exposed her to loving and kind people without all the oddities and interference in our lives.
On a related note...JAL's parents are some of the most wonderful people I have ever met. They were extremely sucessful people, highly respected in the community. It always gave me hope that their example of normalicy would one day be practiced by more believers who had the privilege of getting to know them. They were truly one of the great family's of my early TWI years.
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mstar1
From Groucho:
From Tom:which all seems to me to be the antithesis of the christianity that I read about, and have experienced in local churches around the country. It ook a long time for me to undo that mess that was pummelled into my head in wayworld
worth repeating
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VeganXTC
Calflor,
I remember talk about JAL's parents buying the Limb home for The Way of Indiana. Something about using Eli Lily money instead of their own for the purchase. Did you hear anything about that? Did that happen?
I never met his folks, but I spent way too much time with JAL. I didn't care too much for him. But I didn't know him during his CES time.
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alfakat
Mstar-- how many times I have asked myself, why couldn't these guys(all our former twit leader types) take some time to really de-compress from the vey experience???....NO, NO they HAD to jump right in, be the pooh-baa cuz No-One possibly could have made it without some ex-way leader to guide them... <_< :unsure:
Reminds me of blind leaders of the blind.....
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