Yeah, dooj, I was thinking the same thing. Sounds like she was not going to fellowships for a bit, perhaps just because of the move. They may be checking her out, or putting her on probation (has to read the Way mag, listen to teaching tapes, tithe/abundantly share) before they let her back in.
Ryan, my second husband had left The Way to marry me, I guess. I'd been out for over 5 years by then. I explained to him about how I brought up my daughters (first marriage) with the Santa Claus story. To me, he represents giving without expectation of even a thank you, a very Christian concept. When my girls were old enough to question, I told them that now they were old enough to be Santa for others.
My husband listened and nodded. Then he went behind my back and told our son that Santa was really Saint Nicholas, a man who lived and died hundreds of years ago. My son went on his schoolbus the next day and told the kids that Santa was dead. I got a call from the school about it. My son was 5 years old at the time.
It took me 5 more years of a lot more unChristian things from this guy to finally give him the boot. He went back into The Way. He is still a lousy excuse for a father.
Your mileage may vary, or it may not. Go to fellowship with her. Ask questions. After all you've heard, I am sure you will be surprised at how nice they can be. Just remember that there are some unsavory traits lying just beneath the surface.
And oh yeah, he once ordered me not to post here, "in the name of Jesus Christ." Oopsie, I'm still here!
If I keep my mouth shut and bite my tongue, everything is fine, if I open my mouth and challenge anything, SHE FLIES OFF THE HANDLE and goes CRAZY that I would ever challenge her beliefs in the way.
As others have said - that's a bad sign for a relationship REGARDLESS of the subject matter which precipitates the bad behavior. My wife and I don't agree on lots of stuff but neither of us FLIES OFF THE HANDLE or goes CRAZY about what the other says or believes.
However my ex-wife did (she and I were in the way together). I found out later it was a sign of a personality disorder (exacerbated by involvement in the way).
Since you are young and looking for advice I'll give you some I wish I'd been given (not that I was looking when I was your age). Consider this. Who you are attracted to says a lot about YOU. But we tend to think it's about how cool the other person is. As a result we often ignore warnings signs about unstable behavior.
Here's a book I can recommend. "Getting the Love You Want" - by Harville Hendrix. It talks about why we fall in love and what we try to get from a relationship. I think you'll find it useful at your stage of life.
I was raised in twi from the age of 5 so as you might imagine I have had a few experiences with dating non-twi ladies. I'm a little older than you (31) but when I was your age I had dated twi women (not may choices) and non-twi women and at 24 I think I was dating a non-wayfer. They were good times. Challenging and perhaps a bit rebellious (knowing that I should not date outside of twi), but some of my best days while still in, I must say, were when dating non-twi women.
So first I would ask, what are you looking for in a woman at this point? Are you looking for a wife? More and more people are marrying later but some still get married in their early twenties, either is fine if people are actually ready for it. If you are, then I would say it is time to move on. As many have already told you, that will most likely not happen unless you join and become gung ho. Doesn't sound like your cuppa tea. Good!
If you are just dating and falling in love etc. with a realistic view towards what you are doing and you love the girl, then I say...love her. Be there for her, challenge her, care about her life and the direction it is going but don't argue over everything twi in her life right now. Be the example of what she may think is not really possible, a loving, caring, honest, Christian with many good points regarding their faith that challenge her own.
Most of us know that if you haven't found the person that you know you want to marry, but still love them that at some point something will happen that will cause the two of you to split and both parties will be hurt and move on. Or something will happen that makes you realise that this is actually the person you want to spend your life with and you will move on together.
So be the good man that you should be and love and respect the one you love and don't allow their faith to be your excuse for cutting ties. Allow her to do that if she chooses to. Unfortunately, she may get pressured to do that and she may succumb. That will be a true judge of her character. On the other hand, that pressure may cause her to question TWI and while she may still break up with you, you will still have shared love and respect between you and in the process you may have helped her get one step closer to leaving the group. Or it may cause her to leave. Who knows.
If you do go to a fellowship, then be honest with them and with your questions (don't be afraid to ask them and keep asking them). I suspect continued questioning will speed the process of her being told that you are not good for her, but many times these things vary largely upon where you live and who the local leaders are. If you go for a while (don't stay too long) and then decide to not attend anymore, I think that would also cause someone to tell her you are not the best person for her to be dating.
When I was young (through to 17ish) who I dated (very few) was not much concern for my parents or local leaders. Although, once I moved out of the house and got older, that quickly became their business. (Funny how becoming an adult should have made it the exact opposite.) It got to a point where I just didn't date, because there were not any local girls my age in twi, and I knew that if I dated a non-twi person that this fact alone would be the source of our problems and I didn't want to be that bad guy and hurt people I cared about for that reason. Plus I thought in my late teens and early twenties that I was looking for the person I wanted to marry. Later I decided that was screwed up and dated non-twi women anyway, but did it on the DL, lol, because I knew I would be confronted on it at some point. It ended up that it didnt' matter because I was confronted on how much time I was spending with non-twi people, not just ladies I might be dating, but anyone. Pretty F'ed up, I know.
So anyways, that is my advise. Keep your head up and your eyes open and love the one you love, damn the circumstances and difference in faith and help her grow into the person she really is, inspite of TWI. You obviously know that side of her already. So tread softly and be careful in the way you approach your differences. You say she flies of the handle. That seems like a defence mechanism to me. Don't challenge by telling her she is wrong. Challenge by asking questions, not by defiance.
...and if you ever feel the need to talk outside of a forum feel free to drop me a PM.
I was raised in the Way. I was, at one time, like your girlfriend. Nothing you can say or do will make it change until she is ready to see the deception. Believe me, my mother (who got me in the Way) tried to tell me how corrupt it was but it took me a while to see it myself - I had given my whole life to it and really didn't want to admit it was a waste in any way. I only wanted to see the good. This is most likely what your girlfriend is doing, it sounds like she has had a lot of time invested into the organization as well.
The bigger issue here is whether or not you really DO have a good relationship. Think about it. You said that your relationship with her is good except when you or she mentions the way, devil spirits, Astronomy, etc. And it's alright if you bite your tongue. Don't you get to voice your beliefs? But even more concerning is the etc. The etc may be a small etc right now, but as your relationship continues she will most likely find more to add to the etc. And that unfortunately is her not necessarily the Way.
It might be worth seeing a couples counselor and get their take on the relationship. You might learn things about your gf and yourself.
Definetly I know what you mean Free at last, her mom quit the way because of the pressure they gave her about being in debt, her brother quit because of alot of the scandals and the fact that he is a physics and chemistry major and has more of a scientific viewpoint on the explanation of things such as Astronomy, etc. and he wouldn't stand for it. Her sister is not interested, but she keeps telling her sister she needs to go to a college that is near a local fellowship so she will have a support system nearby to watch over her while in college. I also know what people mean about the biting the tongue comment, it definetly isn't healthy no matter what way you look at it. I am still confused on the mailing thing as well, I guess its because she moved and maybe didn't tell them exactly where she was going, I know she talked to old people from her fellowship and they said there were no fellowships in Missouri any longer and it just seemed to me that she gave up, then something inspired her to write a letter requesting the teaching tapes and they informed her that low and behold there was no need for them, because there was one right here in our city!!!! When she told me, she got ....ed off because she said I didn't seem excited for her, so now she is awaiting them to contact her (maybe it isn't by mail, but I swore thats what she said) so she can start going. She told me last night in an email how much animosity and anger she has towards me still based on Friday night when she blew up and that she may be back to her old self after the holidays and once she starts going to fellowship. She hasn't been to fellowship for the better part of a year, because she said it was a 4 hour drive away to where the nearest one was supposively. At one time I was going to move to Kansas for a job and someone in the way encouraged her to move there because there are alot of good fellowships out that way, the job fell through, but I still wonder if she would've actually made a huge move like that......I don't know, all I know is this whole situation is eating up all my thoughts and I don't like it, one thing I do like is everyone's great comments to me regarding this subject, I am very appreciative that everyone has taken the time to give their input, and all quite positive I might add :)
Definetly I know what you mean Free at last, her mom quit the way because of the pressure they gave her about being in debt, her brother quit because of alot of the scandals and the fact that he is a physics and chemistry major and has more of a scientific viewpoint on the explanation of things such as Astronomy, etc. and he wouldn't stand for it.
Her sister is not interested, but she keeps telling her sister she needs to go to a college that is near a local fellowship so she will have a support system nearby to watch over her while in college. I also know what people mean about the biting the tongue comment, it definetly isn't healthy no matter what way you look at it. I am still confused on the mailing thing as well, I guess its because she moved and maybe didn't tell them exactly where she was going, I know she talked to old people from her fellowship and they said there were no fellowships in Missouri any longer and it just seemed to me that she gave up, then something inspired her to write a letter requesting the teaching tapes and they informed her that low and behold there was no need for them, because there was one right here in our city!!!!
When she told me, she got ....ed off because she said I didn't seem excited for her, so now she is awaiting them to contact her (maybe it isn't by mail, but I swore thats what she said) so she can start going. She told me last night in an email how much animosity and anger she has towards me still based on Friday night when she blew up and that she may be back to her old self after the holidays and once she starts going to fellowship.
She hasn't been to fellowship for the better part of a year, because she said it was a 4 hour drive away to where the nearest one was supposively. At one time I was going to move to Kansas for a job and someone in the way encouraged her to move there because there are alot of good fellowships out that way, the job fell through, but I still wonder if she would've actually made a huge move like that......I don't know, all I know is this whole situation is eating up all my thoughts and I don't like it, one thing I do like is everyone's great comments to me regarding this subject, I am very appreciative that everyone has taken the time to give their input, and all quite positive I might add :)
Had to break that up into paragraphs for my old eyes.
(Much easier to read now).
Oh -- and also --- if you don't want to write *snail mail* letters,
pick up your phone, and hit the numbers (419) 753 2523.
Maybe it's the skeptic in me, but do you also find it a bit curious that members of her family have severed ties with The Way and yet she still holds fast to her allegiance to the group? When I was involved, people who left the group were considered "cop-outs". The terminology,of course, has changed over time but they are still regarded as the lowest of the low because they once knew "The Truth" and have forsaken it.(This is their take on the situation, not mine.) We were told to invite them back twice or maybe three times(I don't remember now) and if they did not change their minds we were to "shake the dust off our feet". (Move on with the work of "the ministry"and forget about them.) If people she has known all her life are not able to reach her sense of reason, it is unlikely you have much of a chance.
Perhaps, as one poster has suggested, she sees you as a knight in shining armor who can validate her desire to leave. Or, as another has suggested, perhaps she sees you as a "trophy" that will vindicate her association with her "earthly,natural family"(Their descriptors,not mine). Then again, maybe she is just confused about where she should invest her commitment. I suppose there is a fourth possibility, and that is that she is truly "sold out" to The Way.
I can't tell you what to do but if you should decide to investigate by attending fellowships, be very(and I mean VERY careful about what you decide to accept of their teachings.)
Incidently, when I was involved, The Pope, Bishops,Cardinals,etc. were considered to be "born of the seed of Satan" which is a permanent, unforgivable sin.(In their theological world)
You have shown a great deal of personal integity,in my opinion ,by trying to sort this out in a caring and logical manner. For this I commend you.
I believe dating is a time to be asking lots of questions of each other. In your position one thing I would be asking her is what happens down the road when you will not sign on the line? The other thing I would consider...picture her at events, with family or buisiness functions. How is it you picture her reacting to people who do not share her views? I think you have had a bit of a snapshot. Is this how you want your life to go?Is this who you want at your side? Picture these things.. then picture still dealing with this 10, 20 and 30 years down the road....
Once again, I whole-heartedly agree with everyone and thank you for reassuring my feelings about this whole situation. Something I have been wondering on a side note, not involving myself, but....Does the way frown upon people using anti-depressants or similar drugs? do they think it makes them weak or anything along those lines? What about drinking on occasion? What is their take on these matters? Also, does the way express anti-semetic viewpoints, such as "endorsing" the 13th tribe or other books? What about thoughts of Mass Suicide? What about "tithing", what if someone has never tithed up to this point? There are alot of others, but I can't think of them at the immediate moment. The whole secrecy thing is what first raised my eyebrows about the ministry. I asked her, Well how do people become members? How do they find out fellowships and events are going on in the area? And when I challenged her of why the only thing on the website was an address, she said it was because of all the outrageous people who call and harass them......Its so simple to me, maybe I have alot better head on my shoulders than her....I don't know, it is just amazing to me how someone who went to college, reads a wide variety of books all the time, etc. can have such a blind eye to the simplest things....
Re:"If I keep my mouth shut and bite my tongue, everything is fine, if I open my mouth and challenge anything, SHE FLIES OFF THE HANDLE and goes CRAZY"
Well, welcome to the relationship game.
Uh, it doesn't get much better, even without the cult nonsense. Might as well get used to it. Or, you could consider a life of celibacy...
Perhaps she'll read my story or listen to you tell it.
I met my ex husband in 1994. At the time he was just back in TWI but had a severe alcohol problem he was working to overcome. His requirement for us to go further in our relationship was to go to a "tig fellowship" meeting. At the time I figured what the heck. I may learn something.
I went & I loved it. The people were nice & made me feel at home. I began to go to their meetings & eventually took their classes. I did not or should I say would not see at the time that the more involved with them I got, the less I interacted with family & friends who were not in TWI.
A few years went by & TWI got stricter & stricter. It got to the point that we had to disclose ALL debt to them & work out an approved plan to get out of debt, including not having any mortgage oe car patment. We had to have a schedule of every part of our day which should be sent to our "leadership" weekly. We were told giving anything less than 10% was a waste of God's time & encouraged to giove all our money that we did not need for bills, etc to them. We were told to only go out to places for the purpose of "witnessing." My husband began to go so far as to put spy programs on our computer to track my activity. I had to study at least 1 hour a day or forget watching my tv. If we went on vacation it had to be approved thru the leadership in writing. If we did not agree 100% with them were "out from under God's protection" & risked "bad things" happening like illness, lost jobs, etc. A very good scare tactic. If we ever considered any other denomination or religion to have any valid points we were possessed. If we did not think homosexuals were perverts, we were doomed & just as "bad" as they were.
My husband got so involved in this group that nothing outside of TWI mattered. I began to start seeing this. It seemed wek after week I heard about how "bad" & "evil" catholics were & heard the bashing of the "homos" & that we weren't homophobic we were "homonaseus." It got to be so much stress on me. I started to see that this was not how I wanted to live my life, as someone full of hate.
I told my husband I wanted out of TWI. I explained I loved him & fully planned to stay in the marriage. After much bickering over it, it was agreed. I began to go to another church & for a time had some peace. However, my husband began to accuse me of being "possessed" by the church. I had gotten a very good job & he felt threatened by my sense of independence. He was losing his control over me.
One night he tried to "cast out the devil spirits" from me. I had enough. After that, a few weeks later with his constant nagging & BS I suffered a stroke. The "fellowship leaders" came to the hospital to visit. They explained "They did not give a damn about me but were their to support my husband" & I was told my stroke was because I stopped attending fellowship & walked out from under my husband's leadership & that I deserved it to wake me up.
After coming home from the hospital my husband refused to take me to therapy. Since I could not drive yet I h ad to go without it. That was the last straw. After I gained some strength back I left him once & for all. He was so bitter he loocked me out of the house & refused to give me my personal things. I called his fellowship leader who told me it was his idea that my husband do that.
After fighting it out in court, I took only my personal things. I had a co-worker who I'd turned to for help getting thru this & over TWI. He turned me on to a forner TWI member who helped me get unbrainwashed from the BS.
After years of unlearning & much healing, I still hold my ojb & am remarried to a very kind & loving man. I am now able to live my life without fear. I have had my share of ups & downs, but at least they were my mistakes to make without being "controlled."
Oh I was told when I left I'd die, etc. Tons of scare tactics. Well I am still alive. I actually make more money, have more control over my life & am starting to see that life is more than 1 ministry.
I hope your girlfriend will one day see how TWI is. It took me a lot, almost the loss of my life, to see it. There is more out there than TWI. There are very wonderful people in all religions. We can learn from anyone. I have friends who are gay & you know, they are very kind & would do anything for me. They love God & live decent lives. I have Muslim friends, Wiccan friends, Jewish friends & I enjoy hearing their perspectives on things. We do not always agree but it's great to have the freedom to sit & listen to them without my husband calling them sinners damned to hell.
TWI gives the appearance of being nice, friendly, loving, caring. But disagree with them. Thinnk for yourself. Tell them no once & you will see for yourself how quickly they turn on you. That is actually part of their mind control is the kindness. They reel you in with it until you are so ensconsed in it you can't see it.
if you need to talk please feel free to PM me. I am here for you both.
Moryan--------You have asked some very pointed questions about particular beliefs.
I am not currently involved with The Way so my answers are gleaned from past experiences.
1.)Anti-Depressants-----Definately taboo based on a number of beliefs involving :
a)Devil spirit possesion being invited by pharmaceutical usage.
b)Using the "law" of believing to reach a goal of healing.
2.)Drinking------not o.k. for rank and file but practised to extremes by upper level "leadership"
("Dr." Wierwille had a severe alcohol addiction which is well documented on this site. It ultimately contributed to his demise.)
3.)Anti-Semetics----As far as VPW (Victor Paul Wierwille) was concerned, followers of "The Way" were the chosen people of God and the Jews are a counterfit, not even connected to the Chosen ones of Biblical times who Wierwille said had been abandoned by God.(In not so politically correct terms he despised the Jews and RC's)
4.)Tithing-----10% was Old Testament. Not nearly as good as "sons of God " could do today. Why not 15 or 20 %?( or anything in excess of current needs?)
And these are recollections of how it was before things got REALLY bad!(If you get my drift)
much of what vyctorya911 describes was my life, too. I also got very sick from the stress, but it was depression and it almost killed me. when I left my ex, I started to get better. some things happened lately that took my health back quite a few notches, but not that low again and this time I fought back and part of the fighting was leaving twi for good.
twi is a good place for some severe personality disorders to flourish. I was subject to some very self-serving and cruel people. not as blatantly cruel as vyctorya's experience, but close.
people still in it say it's changed, but I've challenged a few lately. if they can continue to sweep their sins under the carpet, it's rotten to the core. a religeous body that hides loves power. a religeous body that self-examines can heal people. very few do that, and I respect it when I see it. I have no respect for twi.
Ryan, I'm an old fart and it's way past my bedtime so I'm going to leave it to one of the research pros to pick some of the better threads on the anti-semitism of TWI. But the short answer is, "yes" to the point that they not only sell the 13th tribe and encourage folks to buy & read it, but others along those lines as well.
They teach it to the point that some high school TWIts reduced a holocaust survivor to tears who was at their school as a guest speaker. They called her a liar and totally deny the holocaust ever happened. They have forced the school to cancel trips to DC, and more recently to cancel just the trip to the holocaust museum instead of the whole trip to DC.
Drinking? There's a 2 drink limit unless you're "spiritual enough" (read 'in the right leadership circle'), but that's not admitted to the rank & file. We've had non-ministry functions that merely had quite a few TWIts invited where leadership forbade alcohol to be served.
They call therapy "rent a buddy" - "paying people to listen to you and pretend to care for you" - so you can imagine how much worse anti-depresants are frowned upon. My ex lost a great deal of respect for me when I finally broke down and went to a psychiatrist and therapist because I literally felt like I was going insane with all the b.s. hoops they had us jumping through.
They are taught first aid - pray for deliverance, second aid - have others pray for you and, as a last resort - third aid - medical help.
Cancer is devil spirit possession because it's 'life of it's own' - nevermind that VPW died of cancer (they won't even admit to this and my ex to this day refuses to believe that he died of cancer). VP's son also died of cancer, but they weren't able to hide that so well.
When the founder's wife's alzheimers became too much for them to handle, they kicked her out of her own home and put her in a nursing home living off medicare and not providing a penny to her care.
When older people become too expensive to take care of since they don't offer medical insurance for their 'employees', they find a way to dispose of them.
Time for bed. Please feel free to PM or email me if'n yer so inclined. scarlettbelle at gmail dot com.
Oh yea - they also sell and promote two books against the Catholic religion - I can't recall the names right now, maybe someone else does. If not, I'll dig into my brain tomorrow for you. One of the books has been recanted by the author, but TWIts don't acknowledge that.
Once again, I whole-heartedly agree with everyone and thank you for reassuring my feelings about this whole situation. Something I have been wondering on a side note, not involving myself, but....Does the way frown upon people using anti-depressants or similar drugs? do they think it makes them weak or anything along those lines?
Got it on the first try.
The belief system, founded by vpw, is a Word-Faith variety.
That means you alter reality by your "believing." You speak it, and God's REQUIRED to bring it to
pass. So, if bad things happen to you, first of all, your believing was deficient, which is how
the bad thing arrived. If it stayed, you failed to believe sufficiently to push it away.
So, it's always your fault.
What about drinking on occasion? What is their take on these matters?
They're more flexible on this at points, since vpw had a chronic problem with alcohol
that led to his death. However, a lot of local legalism can make for a "dry" area.
Of course, if the local leader is a boozer, then, by golly, it may be all right in that area...
Also, does the way express anti-semetic viewpoints, such as "endorsing" the 13th tribe or other books?
I named the books above. They've quoted from them. And yes, the kids really DID reduce a
Holocaust survivor to tears and called her a liar. They were "carefully taught."
What about thoughts of Mass Suicide?
That would stop the money coming in. The money MUST keep coming in....
What about "tithing", what if someone has never tithed up to this point?
If you're not giving 10%, "God won't even spit in your direction."
You're expected to exceed that- 15% or 20% is more common,
although it's not a mandate on paper.
(Most stuff isn't actually a mandate on paper-it's still expected.)
There are alot of others, but I can't think of them at the immediate moment. The whole secrecy thing is what first raised my eyebrows about the ministry. I asked her, Well how do people become members? How do they find out fellowships and events are going on in the area? And when I challenged her of why the only thing on the website was an address, she said it was because of all the outrageous people who call and harass them......Its so simple to me, maybe I have alot better head on my shoulders than her....I don't know, it is just amazing to me how someone who went to college, reads a wide variety of books all the time, etc. can have such a blind eye to the simplest things....
Now George don't scare the kid with regard to relationships in general. I was married and I didn't I fly off the handle. Not that I didn't argue with my spouse once in a while but it wasn't unreasonable and disagreements will occur.
I divorced to save my life. Long story but yesterday was my 3rd anniversary of a life saving heart operation that I didn't get sooner or even know I needed sooner because my husband told me that I was disobeying him if I saw anymore doctors. See my 360 post if you want the entire story. After the divorce I saw a doctor and got the tumor removed from my right ventricle.
Marriage in general doesn't have to be that way. Companionship and working together is what it should be about and if two people work together it can be a wonderful thing. Sure there will be disagreements but you work through them without flying off the handle.
Moryan, Please don't let one relationship that isn't exemplary sour you for the whole idea and concept of relationships all together. They way made many of us unreasonable. lol. Even hard headed.
Hang in there you have plenty of time to find the right person and have a healthy relationship with that person.
My first thought was that this girl was M&A’d (marked and avoided, Maryon; perhaps you might know this as excommunicated) and wanting to get back into fellowship because she feels guilty or … whatever negative they put on her.
To show that she is worthy of consideration for the M&A to be lifted, she needs to show that she can still bring people in.
Actually, they are likely to accept the people brought in and still reject the person M&A’d.
When they got round to me and I was all alone, I happened across a really nice man who just showed me how much he enjoyed my company, very patient, quietly looked after me as much as I would allow (which wasn’t very much) and was never confrontational. After all the years of hardness, it was almost frightening not to be confronted if I said something that might be controversial and I found myself almost provoking fights (which he wouldn’t be drawn into). It worried me enormously that he was behaving in the matter set out in the latter half of Eph 4; that I was seeing this in an outright unbeliever and not at all in the people of the Way. Actually I thought it was a devil spirit trick, that he was nice to me. (Screwed in the head, or what?)
Being with him didn’t heal me but it gave me a breathing space to start to collect myself together. It was only confronting the lies and deception, the bad things that TWI did and the way that “love” had failed to be tender but had become hard as rock, that healed me. I didn’t know about GSC in those days.
If you stick with her, Maryon, be kind, gentle, patient, and expect some emotional ups and downs. She has to learn to think again, and really let the love of God start flowing in her life. It was there and probably still is. But it has a whole heap of junk piled on top. If you can help her get rid of the junk you will be a friend indeed.
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Yeah, dooj, I was thinking the same thing. Sounds like she was not going to fellowships for a bit, perhaps just because of the move. They may be checking her out, or putting her on probation (has to read the Way mag, listen to teaching tapes, tithe/abundantly share) before they let her back in.
Ryan, my second husband had left The Way to marry me, I guess. I'd been out for over 5 years by then. I explained to him about how I brought up my daughters (first marriage) with the Santa Claus story. To me, he represents giving without expectation of even a thank you, a very Christian concept. When my girls were old enough to question, I told them that now they were old enough to be Santa for others.
My husband listened and nodded. Then he went behind my back and told our son that Santa was really Saint Nicholas, a man who lived and died hundreds of years ago. My son went on his schoolbus the next day and told the kids that Santa was dead. I got a call from the school about it. My son was 5 years old at the time.
It took me 5 more years of a lot more unChristian things from this guy to finally give him the boot. He went back into The Way. He is still a lousy excuse for a father.
Your mileage may vary, or it may not. Go to fellowship with her. Ask questions. After all you've heard, I am sure you will be surprised at how nice they can be. Just remember that there are some unsavory traits lying just beneath the surface.
And oh yeah, he once ordered me not to post here, "in the name of Jesus Christ." Oopsie, I'm still here!
Regards,
Shaz
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My3Cents
As others have said - that's a bad sign for a relationship REGARDLESS of the subject matter which precipitates the bad behavior. My wife and I don't agree on lots of stuff but neither of us FLIES OFF THE HANDLE or goes CRAZY about what the other says or believes.
However my ex-wife did (she and I were in the way together). I found out later it was a sign of a personality disorder (exacerbated by involvement in the way).
Since you are young and looking for advice I'll give you some I wish I'd been given (not that I was looking when I was your age). Consider this. Who you are attracted to says a lot about YOU. But we tend to think it's about how cool the other person is. As a result we often ignore warnings signs about unstable behavior.
Here's a book I can recommend. "Getting the Love You Want" - by Harville Hendrix. It talks about why we fall in love and what we try to get from a relationship. I think you'll find it useful at your stage of life.
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Kevlar2000
"But...but...but...I've said the magical incantation! How can Shaz still post here?!"
It's in the way you wave the bible when you say it. You know, just swish and flick.
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lindyhopper
Hi Moryan,
I was raised in twi from the age of 5 so as you might imagine I have had a few experiences with dating non-twi ladies. I'm a little older than you (31) but when I was your age I had dated twi women (not may choices) and non-twi women and at 24 I think I was dating a non-wayfer. They were good times. Challenging and perhaps a bit rebellious (knowing that I should not date outside of twi), but some of my best days while still in, I must say, were when dating non-twi women.
So first I would ask, what are you looking for in a woman at this point? Are you looking for a wife? More and more people are marrying later but some still get married in their early twenties, either is fine if people are actually ready for it. If you are, then I would say it is time to move on. As many have already told you, that will most likely not happen unless you join and become gung ho. Doesn't sound like your cuppa tea. Good!
If you are just dating and falling in love etc. with a realistic view towards what you are doing and you love the girl, then I say...love her. Be there for her, challenge her, care about her life and the direction it is going but don't argue over everything twi in her life right now. Be the example of what she may think is not really possible, a loving, caring, honest, Christian with many good points regarding their faith that challenge her own.
Most of us know that if you haven't found the person that you know you want to marry, but still love them that at some point something will happen that will cause the two of you to split and both parties will be hurt and move on. Or something will happen that makes you realise that this is actually the person you want to spend your life with and you will move on together.
So be the good man that you should be and love and respect the one you love and don't allow their faith to be your excuse for cutting ties. Allow her to do that if she chooses to. Unfortunately, she may get pressured to do that and she may succumb. That will be a true judge of her character. On the other hand, that pressure may cause her to question TWI and while she may still break up with you, you will still have shared love and respect between you and in the process you may have helped her get one step closer to leaving the group. Or it may cause her to leave. Who knows.
If you do go to a fellowship, then be honest with them and with your questions (don't be afraid to ask them and keep asking them). I suspect continued questioning will speed the process of her being told that you are not good for her, but many times these things vary largely upon where you live and who the local leaders are. If you go for a while (don't stay too long) and then decide to not attend anymore, I think that would also cause someone to tell her you are not the best person for her to be dating.
When I was young (through to 17ish) who I dated (very few) was not much concern for my parents or local leaders. Although, once I moved out of the house and got older, that quickly became their business. (Funny how becoming an adult should have made it the exact opposite.) It got to a point where I just didn't date, because there were not any local girls my age in twi, and I knew that if I dated a non-twi person that this fact alone would be the source of our problems and I didn't want to be that bad guy and hurt people I cared about for that reason. Plus I thought in my late teens and early twenties that I was looking for the person I wanted to marry. Later I decided that was screwed up and dated non-twi women anyway, but did it on the DL, lol, because I knew I would be confronted on it at some point. It ended up that it didnt' matter because I was confronted on how much time I was spending with non-twi people, not just ladies I might be dating, but anyone. Pretty F'ed up, I know.
So anyways, that is my advise. Keep your head up and your eyes open and love the one you love, damn the circumstances and difference in faith and help her grow into the person she really is, inspite of TWI. You obviously know that side of her already. So tread softly and be careful in the way you approach your differences. You say she flies of the handle. That seems like a defence mechanism to me. Don't challenge by telling her she is wrong. Challenge by asking questions, not by defiance.
...and if you ever feel the need to talk outside of a forum feel free to drop me a PM.
LH
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FreeAtLast
Ryan,
I was raised in the Way. I was, at one time, like your girlfriend. Nothing you can say or do will make it change until she is ready to see the deception. Believe me, my mother (who got me in the Way) tried to tell me how corrupt it was but it took me a while to see it myself - I had given my whole life to it and really didn't want to admit it was a waste in any way. I only wanted to see the good. This is most likely what your girlfriend is doing, it sounds like she has had a lot of time invested into the organization as well.
The bigger issue here is whether or not you really DO have a good relationship. Think about it. You said that your relationship with her is good except when you or she mentions the way, devil spirits, Astronomy, etc. And it's alright if you bite your tongue. Don't you get to voice your beliefs? But even more concerning is the etc. The etc may be a small etc right now, but as your relationship continues she will most likely find more to add to the etc. And that unfortunately is her not necessarily the Way.
It might be worth seeing a couples counselor and get their take on the relationship. You might learn things about your gf and yourself.
Best to you
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washingtonweather
yeah--- you just might be her ticket out...that's means more than she'll know for a long time.
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moryan
Definetly I know what you mean Free at last, her mom quit the way because of the pressure they gave her about being in debt, her brother quit because of alot of the scandals and the fact that he is a physics and chemistry major and has more of a scientific viewpoint on the explanation of things such as Astronomy, etc. and he wouldn't stand for it. Her sister is not interested, but she keeps telling her sister she needs to go to a college that is near a local fellowship so she will have a support system nearby to watch over her while in college. I also know what people mean about the biting the tongue comment, it definetly isn't healthy no matter what way you look at it. I am still confused on the mailing thing as well, I guess its because she moved and maybe didn't tell them exactly where she was going, I know she talked to old people from her fellowship and they said there were no fellowships in Missouri any longer and it just seemed to me that she gave up, then something inspired her to write a letter requesting the teaching tapes and they informed her that low and behold there was no need for them, because there was one right here in our city!!!! When she told me, she got ....ed off because she said I didn't seem excited for her, so now she is awaiting them to contact her (maybe it isn't by mail, but I swore thats what she said) so she can start going. She told me last night in an email how much animosity and anger she has towards me still based on Friday night when she blew up and that she may be back to her old self after the holidays and once she starts going to fellowship. She hasn't been to fellowship for the better part of a year, because she said it was a 4 hour drive away to where the nearest one was supposively. At one time I was going to move to Kansas for a job and someone in the way encouraged her to move there because there are alot of good fellowships out that way, the job fell through, but I still wonder if she would've actually made a huge move like that......I don't know, all I know is this whole situation is eating up all my thoughts and I don't like it, one thing I do like is everyone's great comments to me regarding this subject, I am very appreciative that everyone has taken the time to give their input, and all quite positive I might add :)
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dmiller
Had to break that up into paragraphs for my old eyes.
(Much easier to read now).
Oh -- and also --- if you don't want to write *snail mail* letters,
pick up your phone, and hit the numbers (419) 753 2523.
:mellow:
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waysider
Moryan
Maybe it's the skeptic in me, but do you also find it a bit curious that members of her family have severed ties with The Way and yet she still holds fast to her allegiance to the group? When I was involved, people who left the group were considered "cop-outs". The terminology,of course, has changed over time but they are still regarded as the lowest of the low because they once knew "The Truth" and have forsaken it.(This is their take on the situation, not mine.) We were told to invite them back twice or maybe three times(I don't remember now) and if they did not change their minds we were to "shake the dust off our feet". (Move on with the work of "the ministry"and forget about them.) If people she has known all her life are not able to reach her sense of reason, it is unlikely you have much of a chance.
Perhaps, as one poster has suggested, she sees you as a knight in shining armor who can validate her desire to leave. Or, as another has suggested, perhaps she sees you as a "trophy" that will vindicate her association with her "earthly,natural family"(Their descriptors,not mine). Then again, maybe she is just confused about where she should invest her commitment. I suppose there is a fourth possibility, and that is that she is truly "sold out" to The Way.
I can't tell you what to do but if you should decide to investigate by attending fellowships, be very(and I mean VERY careful about what you decide to accept of their teachings.)
Incidently, when I was involved, The Pope, Bishops,Cardinals,etc. were considered to be "born of the seed of Satan" which is a permanent, unforgivable sin.(In their theological world)
You have shown a great deal of personal integity,in my opinion ,by trying to sort this out in a caring and logical manner. For this I commend you.
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coupcake
Moryan,
I believe dating is a time to be asking lots of questions of each other. In your position one thing I would be asking her is what happens down the road when you will not sign on the line? The other thing I would consider...picture her at events, with family or buisiness functions. How is it you picture her reacting to people who do not share her views? I think you have had a bit of a snapshot. Is this how you want your life to go?Is this who you want at your side? Picture these things.. then picture still dealing with this 10, 20 and 30 years down the road....
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dmiller
Shucks -- I'll share a story here, that is already on the GSC,
(but don't ask me what thread --- I don't remember).
On a lark -- I called *headquarters* (same number as in my previous post),
as I was curious if there were any twigs/ fellowships/ whatever in my area.
I was also curious about the *believer* population here in Minney-soda.
Once the voice at the other end of the phone had my name correct ---
They pulled up all the info they had on me, from 20 some years ago.
They knew everything immediately, yet told me that they would contact my *area* leader,
who would in turn get hold of me.
Now I ask you --- twi bills itself as an OUTREACH ministry.
Why the secrecy? Why the lack of openess?
Veiled phone numbers, no e-mail address, no direct info to them,
Why didn't they say --- *call so and so, at this number*?
Twi is deceitful, manipulative, and downright evil.
There isn't an honest bone in the folks who are at the helm of it right now (imo).
Moryan -- you do what you have to do, but some of us have been there before--
and that includes the recent past, as well as the distant past.
Twi has remained the same. We've moved on. They have not.
Good luck in your decision.
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dmiller
Double post -- Sorry about that. :(
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moryan
Once again, I whole-heartedly agree with everyone and thank you for reassuring my feelings about this whole situation. Something I have been wondering on a side note, not involving myself, but....Does the way frown upon people using anti-depressants or similar drugs? do they think it makes them weak or anything along those lines? What about drinking on occasion? What is their take on these matters? Also, does the way express anti-semetic viewpoints, such as "endorsing" the 13th tribe or other books? What about thoughts of Mass Suicide? What about "tithing", what if someone has never tithed up to this point? There are alot of others, but I can't think of them at the immediate moment. The whole secrecy thing is what first raised my eyebrows about the ministry. I asked her, Well how do people become members? How do they find out fellowships and events are going on in the area? And when I challenged her of why the only thing on the website was an address, she said it was because of all the outrageous people who call and harass them......Its so simple to me, maybe I have alot better head on my shoulders than her....I don't know, it is just amazing to me how someone who went to college, reads a wide variety of books all the time, etc. can have such a blind eye to the simplest things....
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George Aar
Hey Ryan,
Re:"If I keep my mouth shut and bite my tongue, everything is fine, if I open my mouth and challenge anything, SHE FLIES OFF THE HANDLE and goes CRAZY"
Well, welcome to the relationship game.
Uh, it doesn't get much better, even without the cult nonsense. Might as well get used to it. Or, you could consider a life of celibacy...
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Vyctorya911
Perhaps she'll read my story or listen to you tell it.
I met my ex husband in 1994. At the time he was just back in TWI but had a severe alcohol problem he was working to overcome. His requirement for us to go further in our relationship was to go to a "tig fellowship" meeting. At the time I figured what the heck. I may learn something.
I went & I loved it. The people were nice & made me feel at home. I began to go to their meetings & eventually took their classes. I did not or should I say would not see at the time that the more involved with them I got, the less I interacted with family & friends who were not in TWI.
A few years went by & TWI got stricter & stricter. It got to the point that we had to disclose ALL debt to them & work out an approved plan to get out of debt, including not having any mortgage oe car patment. We had to have a schedule of every part of our day which should be sent to our "leadership" weekly. We were told giving anything less than 10% was a waste of God's time & encouraged to giove all our money that we did not need for bills, etc to them. We were told to only go out to places for the purpose of "witnessing." My husband began to go so far as to put spy programs on our computer to track my activity. I had to study at least 1 hour a day or forget watching my tv. If we went on vacation it had to be approved thru the leadership in writing. If we did not agree 100% with them were "out from under God's protection" & risked "bad things" happening like illness, lost jobs, etc. A very good scare tactic. If we ever considered any other denomination or religion to have any valid points we were possessed. If we did not think homosexuals were perverts, we were doomed & just as "bad" as they were.
My husband got so involved in this group that nothing outside of TWI mattered. I began to start seeing this. It seemed wek after week I heard about how "bad" & "evil" catholics were & heard the bashing of the "homos" & that we weren't homophobic we were "homonaseus." It got to be so much stress on me. I started to see that this was not how I wanted to live my life, as someone full of hate.
I told my husband I wanted out of TWI. I explained I loved him & fully planned to stay in the marriage. After much bickering over it, it was agreed. I began to go to another church & for a time had some peace. However, my husband began to accuse me of being "possessed" by the church. I had gotten a very good job & he felt threatened by my sense of independence. He was losing his control over me.
One night he tried to "cast out the devil spirits" from me. I had enough. After that, a few weeks later with his constant nagging & BS I suffered a stroke. The "fellowship leaders" came to the hospital to visit. They explained "They did not give a damn about me but were their to support my husband" & I was told my stroke was because I stopped attending fellowship & walked out from under my husband's leadership & that I deserved it to wake me up.
After coming home from the hospital my husband refused to take me to therapy. Since I could not drive yet I h ad to go without it. That was the last straw. After I gained some strength back I left him once & for all. He was so bitter he loocked me out of the house & refused to give me my personal things. I called his fellowship leader who told me it was his idea that my husband do that.
After fighting it out in court, I took only my personal things. I had a co-worker who I'd turned to for help getting thru this & over TWI. He turned me on to a forner TWI member who helped me get unbrainwashed from the BS.
After years of unlearning & much healing, I still hold my ojb & am remarried to a very kind & loving man. I am now able to live my life without fear. I have had my share of ups & downs, but at least they were my mistakes to make without being "controlled."
Oh I was told when I left I'd die, etc. Tons of scare tactics. Well I am still alive. I actually make more money, have more control over my life & am starting to see that life is more than 1 ministry.
I hope your girlfriend will one day see how TWI is. It took me a lot, almost the loss of my life, to see it. There is more out there than TWI. There are very wonderful people in all religions. We can learn from anyone. I have friends who are gay & you know, they are very kind & would do anything for me. They love God & live decent lives. I have Muslim friends, Wiccan friends, Jewish friends & I enjoy hearing their perspectives on things. We do not always agree but it's great to have the freedom to sit & listen to them without my husband calling them sinners damned to hell.
TWI gives the appearance of being nice, friendly, loving, caring. But disagree with them. Thinnk for yourself. Tell them no once & you will see for yourself how quickly they turn on you. That is actually part of their mind control is the kindness. They reel you in with it until you are so ensconsed in it you can't see it.
if you need to talk please feel free to PM me. I am here for you both.
Vyctorya
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waysider
Moryan--------You have asked some very pointed questions about particular beliefs.
I am not currently involved with The Way so my answers are gleaned from past experiences.
1.)Anti-Depressants-----Definately taboo based on a number of beliefs involving :
a)Devil spirit possesion being invited by pharmaceutical usage.
b)Using the "law" of believing to reach a goal of healing.
2.)Drinking------not o.k. for rank and file but practised to extremes by upper level "leadership"
("Dr." Wierwille had a severe alcohol addiction which is well documented on this site. It ultimately contributed to his demise.)
3.)Anti-Semetics----As far as VPW (Victor Paul Wierwille) was concerned, followers of "The Way" were the chosen people of God and the Jews are a counterfit, not even connected to the Chosen ones of Biblical times who Wierwille said had been abandoned by God.(In not so politically correct terms he despised the Jews and RC's)
4.)Tithing-----10% was Old Testament. Not nearly as good as "sons of God " could do today. Why not 15 or 20 %?( or anything in excess of current needs?)
And these are recollections of how it was before things got REALLY bad!(If you get my drift)
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potato
much of what vyctorya911 describes was my life, too. I also got very sick from the stress, but it was depression and it almost killed me. when I left my ex, I started to get better. some things happened lately that took my health back quite a few notches, but not that low again and this time I fought back and part of the fighting was leaving twi for good.
twi is a good place for some severe personality disorders to flourish. I was subject to some very self-serving and cruel people. not as blatantly cruel as vyctorya's experience, but close.
people still in it say it's changed, but I've challenged a few lately. if they can continue to sweep their sins under the carpet, it's rotten to the core. a religeous body that hides loves power. a religeous body that self-examines can heal people. very few do that, and I respect it when I see it. I have no respect for twi.
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Belle
Ryan, I'm an old fart and it's way past my bedtime so I'm going to leave it to one of the research pros to pick some of the better threads on the anti-semitism of TWI. But the short answer is, "yes" to the point that they not only sell the 13th tribe and encourage folks to buy & read it, but others along those lines as well.
They teach it to the point that some high school TWIts reduced a holocaust survivor to tears who was at their school as a guest speaker. They called her a liar and totally deny the holocaust ever happened. They have forced the school to cancel trips to DC, and more recently to cancel just the trip to the holocaust museum instead of the whole trip to DC.
Drinking? There's a 2 drink limit unless you're "spiritual enough" (read 'in the right leadership circle'), but that's not admitted to the rank & file. We've had non-ministry functions that merely had quite a few TWIts invited where leadership forbade alcohol to be served.
They call therapy "rent a buddy" - "paying people to listen to you and pretend to care for you" - so you can imagine how much worse anti-depresants are frowned upon. My ex lost a great deal of respect for me when I finally broke down and went to a psychiatrist and therapist because I literally felt like I was going insane with all the b.s. hoops they had us jumping through.
They are taught first aid - pray for deliverance, second aid - have others pray for you and, as a last resort - third aid - medical help.
Cancer is devil spirit possession because it's 'life of it's own' - nevermind that VPW died of cancer (they won't even admit to this and my ex to this day refuses to believe that he died of cancer). VP's son also died of cancer, but they weren't able to hide that so well.
When the founder's wife's alzheimers became too much for them to handle, they kicked her out of her own home and put her in a nursing home living off medicare and not providing a penny to her care.
When older people become too expensive to take care of since they don't offer medical insurance for their 'employees', they find a way to dispose of them.
Oh yea - they also sell and promote two books against the Catholic religion - I can't recall the names right now, maybe someone else does. If not, I'll dig into my brain tomorrow for you. One of the books has been recanted by the author, but TWIts don't acknowledge that.
Two Babylons is one I think.
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doojable
Babylon Mystery Religion is another of those books.
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WordWolf
Re: "The Two Babylons", by Alexander Hislop.
I personally did not see them promote this SPECIFIC book in the bookstore.
However, it is the basis for the later book
"Babylon Mystery Religion", by Ralph Woodrow.
That book, heavily footnoting Hislop's book, is basically
a much lighter version of Hislop's book.
Years later, Woodrow discovered there were many errors
in Hislop's book, and wrote a sequel
"The Babylon Connection?",
which repudiates the previous book.
("I was wrong, and here's why...")
People in twi probably can still quote "Babylon Mystery Religion"
but are unfamiliar with the sequel, since it contradicts their theology.
Both vpw and lcm (Presidents 1 & 2) hated the Roman Catholic Church,
and could rant at length about it.
(lcm, for example, announced the Pope had an aircraft carrier and
was getting ready to convert everyone to Catholicism at gunpoint.
This was about a decade ago.)
The antisemitic books promoted-and carried by-twi include
"Myth of the Six Million." This claims the Holocaust never happened,
or was wildly exaggerated.
So does "the Hoax of the Twentieth Century."
"The Thirteenth Tribe." This book claims all the "Jews" are actually Khazars,
and the current Jews are not related to the Jews in the Bible.
(This has been disproven with genetic tests.)
That's not directly anti-Semitic, but it's used as justification by antiSemites.
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WordWolf
Got it on the first try.
The belief system, founded by vpw, is a Word-Faith variety.
That means you alter reality by your "believing." You speak it, and God's REQUIRED to bring it to
pass. So, if bad things happen to you, first of all, your believing was deficient, which is how
the bad thing arrived. If it stayed, you failed to believe sufficiently to push it away.
So, it's always your fault.
They're more flexible on this at points, since vpw had a chronic problem with alcoholthat led to his death. However, a lot of local legalism can make for a "dry" area.
Of course, if the local leader is a boozer, then, by golly, it may be all right in that area...
I named the books above. They've quoted from them. And yes, the kids really DID reduce a
Holocaust survivor to tears and called her a liar. They were "carefully taught."
That would stop the money coming in. The money MUST keep coming in....If you're not giving 10%, "God won't even spit in your direction."
You're expected to exceed that- 15% or 20% is more common,
although it's not a mandate on paper.
(Most stuff isn't actually a mandate on paper-it's still expected.)
It takes years of educating someone that way...
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FreeAtLast
Now George don't scare the kid with regard to relationships in general. I was married and I didn't I fly off the handle. Not that I didn't argue with my spouse once in a while but it wasn't unreasonable and disagreements will occur.
I divorced to save my life. Long story but yesterday was my 3rd anniversary of a life saving heart operation that I didn't get sooner or even know I needed sooner because my husband told me that I was disobeying him if I saw anymore doctors. See my 360 post if you want the entire story. After the divorce I saw a doctor and got the tumor removed from my right ventricle.
Marriage in general doesn't have to be that way. Companionship and working together is what it should be about and if two people work together it can be a wonderful thing. Sure there will be disagreements but you work through them without flying off the handle.
Moryan, Please don't let one relationship that isn't exemplary sour you for the whole idea and concept of relationships all together. They way made many of us unreasonable. lol. Even hard headed.
Hang in there you have plenty of time to find the right person and have a healthy relationship with that person.
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Twinky
What’s so scary is that all this stuff is true…
My first thought was that this girl was M&A’d (marked and avoided, Maryon; perhaps you might know this as excommunicated) and wanting to get back into fellowship because she feels guilty or … whatever negative they put on her.
To show that she is worthy of consideration for the M&A to be lifted, she needs to show that she can still bring people in.
Actually, they are likely to accept the people brought in and still reject the person M&A’d.
When they got round to me and I was all alone, I happened across a really nice man who just showed me how much he enjoyed my company, very patient, quietly looked after me as much as I would allow (which wasn’t very much) and was never confrontational. After all the years of hardness, it was almost frightening not to be confronted if I said something that might be controversial and I found myself almost provoking fights (which he wouldn’t be drawn into). It worried me enormously that he was behaving in the matter set out in the latter half of Eph 4; that I was seeing this in an outright unbeliever and not at all in the people of the Way. Actually I thought it was a devil spirit trick, that he was nice to me. (Screwed in the head, or what?)
Being with him didn’t heal me but it gave me a breathing space to start to collect myself together. It was only confronting the lies and deception, the bad things that TWI did and the way that “love” had failed to be tender but had become hard as rock, that healed me. I didn’t know about GSC in those days.
If you stick with her, Maryon, be kind, gentle, patient, and expect some emotional ups and downs. She has to learn to think again, and really let the love of God start flowing in her life. It was there and probably still is. But it has a whole heap of junk piled on top. If you can help her get rid of the junk you will be a friend indeed.
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