B - Because I'm morally superior to you and you need to validate my feeling offended if you want this to go away.
A - Want what to go away?
B - Me!
A - So you think that because I offended you that you now have the right to harass me until I chant this fake apology just so everybody will concur that you're morally superior to me?
Matt. 15:12-14 - Then came his disciples and said unto him, knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended after they heard this saying? But he answered and said, every plant which my heavenly father hath not planted shall be rooted up Let them alone, they be blind leaders of the blind and if the blind lead the blind both shall fall in the ditch.
It doesn't appear that Jesus was too concerned about simply offending people. Now I realize that Jesus had a ministry to perform and this doesn't always transfer to people who are equals conversing on a forum or in person, but using guilt is always an option for those who think that THEY should be in control of every conversation.
If the person is just being a jerkwad then it is part their responsibility in the offense and being the martyr and taking the blame is IMHO not healthy as I have been there and done it way too much in my own life.
And you are correct Johniam Jesus Christ had balls and never took the load when others were the offenders.
I agree with the interpretation that a failure to acknowledge one's own sin in hurting someone is not a "heartfelt" apology.
I adopted the prayer of Jabez (I Chronicles 4:10) as my life theme. Jabez was a man whose parents had named him, "one who causes pain," and this prayer beseeches the Lord to bless him and protect him and keep him from evil so that he would not cause pain. Causing pain to someone is what the devil does, and I now try to live so that I may not cause pain. The Lord granted Jabez what he requested.
Only the Lord can keep a person so that he does not cause pain. And in order for God to grant this prayer, Jabez needed to have developed his spiritual ears so he could hear what the Holy Spirit was saying.
People still in twi have closed their ears to hearing the Holy Spirit and thereby cut off the Holy Spirit from their lives.
I just don't see how a true apology can come from someone still in twi. It's like dmiller called an oxymoron. Twi is run to control other people through pain and intimidation. I just don't see how a heartfelt apology can be given in that situation.
I think that a person can sincerely apologize for offending somebody, while holding his position on an issue. "I apologize if I offended you."
It could be that somebody did not communicate his ideas properly, with the appropriate sensitivity, or whatever. Or that somebody spoke when he should have simply remained silent.
A person could also do that without sincerity. But the same person could, without sincerity, apologize unconditionally.
I'm not negating anything previously. It's all good. I agree.
However I'd like to add something:
Sometimes we don't judge people's abilities correctly. I'm a pretty smart person, but I know many who are smarter than I am. I know a lot who aren't as smart. I'm a reasonably verbal person. I can write what I mean most of the time, but I'm not like those with WordWolf's or Raf's skills. People are people. And we have to give them credit for just what they are and what they can do.*
I can give a clear example of what I believe Oak is saying.
RFR, when I was on staff, manipulated/guilted me to stay in a staff position I despeately wanted to leave. Then, as soon as Corps Week rolled around, she unilaterally changed my assignment behind my back, lied to others about me, then lied to me about what she had done. When confronted, she said, "Why Leeunduh, ahm so sorry ah hurt ya feelin's."
Duh. My feelings weren't hurt. I was pi$$ed because I'd been lied about and lied to and squeezed into a position I didn't want to be in. Hers was no apology. In essence, what she was saying was that the problem was mine. That I was too sensitive or had misunderstood or whatever. She took absolutely no responsibility for her wrongdoing. It was a pseudo-apology, at best.
I don't know how many times I've heard "I'm sorry YOU feel that way."
Now, as to the opening post, the way I look at it is that if the person "apologizing" is trying to say he recognizes that his words or actions are what the problem is, then I accept it. I believe the statement, "I apologize if I offended you," is such that it does recognize the responsibility for the offense is with the person giving the apologizing. HOWEVER -- when someone tries to tell me they are sorry for something THEY are NOT responsible for -- that is inherently insincere and disingenuous. Therefore, I generally reply something like "don't apologize for my feelings, apologize instead for your actions/words."
I have found that there are plenty of people who don't "get it." By that, I mean that they don't understand what they just did/said by trying to apologize for something they aren't responsible for. Some do understand and intend their insincerity.
I suppose online it's hard to tell since tone of voice doesn't carry. Of course, those who have been around for a long time, tend to know how to 'read' the posts of other long time posters.
Linda, Bob Moynihan "apologized" with his perfected sarcastic sneer and wave of the hand when I talked to Dottie and him about problems with TWI. "I'm sooooo sorry if I've hurt anyone... " Gee, thanks, Bob, why even bother? :unsure:
Ok- I've been on both sides of this argument in my life.
I learned to say the words, "I'm sorry...." while all the while apologizing for nothing with my step mother.
I stopped doing that when I encountered that attitiude in TWI and watched and listened with disgusted amazement as leadership not only used those words but also lived the phrase, "It's easier to get permission than forgiveness."
Now - sometimes I DO say "I'm sorry if I offended you....." BUT I mean it sincerely - and I ONLY use this phrase if it is unclear if I have truly offended the person in question. Afterall, sometimes its not that I have offended a person - but rather that something offensive has arisen but still needs to be dealt with.
One time in GSC I was accused of doing something that I KNEW I didn't do, but I asked for forgiveness anyway. WHY? I did that because I felt it very necessary to show humility in the situation.
It seems to me that we can strain at gnats or give folks the benefit of the doubt.
HEY - did you notice that the two folks on the thread in question that supposedly had the disagreement haven't posted here? I would say that they are fine with the way it was handled - or they chose not to air the dirty laundry.
I don't apologize to make people I may have offended go away.
I don't apologize when I don't feel or KNOW I haven't made a mistake - it's admitting to an error that isn't there. BUT if there's a misunderstanding as to why someone thinks they're offended, then I will apologize for the confusion - and explain why I said or did what I did.
I don't use words like "IF" or "BUT" in my apologies - it's like making a pinkie promise with your fingers crossed - you don't really mean it - you're just going thru the motions.
If two parties with different points of view will shut up long enough to hear each other out, perhaps an apology isn't necessary but just identifying where they will never agree or see eye-to-eye is needed. (Agree to disagree and go about their merry ways.)
Just my thoughts - you're welcome to disagree - I won't be offended. :)
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ChattyKathy
I have apologized for offending someone even though I found them to be quite offensive. How would that factor in I wonder?
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cman
Or should it be.
'If I have offended you let me know,
so we can clarify our thinking.'
How's that Oakspear.
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ChattyKathy
Nice reply cman.
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Belle
Sounds to me like, "I'm sorry that you're offended, but I'm not sorry for how I feel and what I said."
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cman
Thanks ChattyKathy,
I always enjoy and appreciate your responses.
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ChattyKathy
Thank you kindly. :)
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cman
Belle,
So the question is,
how do we make them non offensive, yet still say what we mean.
Though some will be offended anyway for whatever reasons.
And we can't control another's response,
but try to help communicate.
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WordWolf
That would be something like
"I did not mean to offend you. I offended you nonetheless and I am sorry."
That's an acknowledgement that my action, well-intentioned though it was, was incorrect in some
fashion-or at least offensive.
I've gotten those other apologies, and they're always indictments, as in:
"I'm sorry you're unable to control your emotions and not be offended while I do
what's right."
twi and ex-twi aren't the only ones who do this, BTW.
I HAVE, however, spotted this more among the religious than non-religious contexts and peoples.
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cman
So the point is to communicate without indicating or implying or saying that there is something wrong with the other person I suppose.
And what if the person is wrong and it needs to be pointed out. Like the abuse from twi and things of that nature.
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johniam
person A - this is my opinion.
person B - I'm offended!
A - So what?
B - So apologize to me.
A - Why?
B - Because I'm morally superior to you and you need to validate my feeling offended if you want this to go away.
A - Want what to go away?
B - Me!
A - So you think that because I offended you that you now have the right to harass me until I chant this fake apology just so everybody will concur that you're morally superior to me?
B - Huh?
A - Makes perfect sense to me. I'm sorry!
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motherof2
yeah, i learned to never say im sorry if..instead say, im sorry because..and will you forgive me? the word IF..has some pride connected to it.
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johniam
This business of not offending anyone:
Matt. 15:12-14 - Then came his disciples and said unto him, knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended after they heard this saying? But he answered and said, every plant which my heavenly father hath not planted shall be rooted up Let them alone, they be blind leaders of the blind and if the blind lead the blind both shall fall in the ditch.
It doesn't appear that Jesus was too concerned about simply offending people. Now I realize that Jesus had a ministry to perform and this doesn't always transfer to people who are equals conversing on a forum or in person, but using guilt is always an option for those who think that THEY should be in control of every conversation.
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ChattyKathy
If the person is just being a jerkwad then it is part their responsibility in the offense and being the martyr and taking the blame is IMHO not healthy as I have been there and done it way too much in my own life.
And you are correct Johniam Jesus Christ had balls and never took the load when others were the offenders.
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washingtonweather
To me its the same as when people spout off "Is that a problem?" As if the challenge and the "if" came from the same side of the court room.
It's a technique for manipulating the "offended."
It's the same as saying "I'm sorry if you have a big ole problem with it, but I don't give a sh**"
I have a section of relatives that treat evrthing and everyone this way. I stay clear.
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Kit Sober
This topic goes hand in hand with the discussion in the twi forum, "Am I marked and avoided or what?"
I agree with the interpretation that a failure to acknowledge one's own sin in hurting someone is not a "heartfelt" apology.
I adopted the prayer of Jabez (I Chronicles 4:10) as my life theme. Jabez was a man whose parents had named him, "one who causes pain," and this prayer beseeches the Lord to bless him and protect him and keep him from evil so that he would not cause pain. Causing pain to someone is what the devil does, and I now try to live so that I may not cause pain. The Lord granted Jabez what he requested.
Only the Lord can keep a person so that he does not cause pain. And in order for God to grant this prayer, Jabez needed to have developed his spiritual ears so he could hear what the Holy Spirit was saying.
People still in twi have closed their ears to hearing the Holy Spirit and thereby cut off the Holy Spirit from their lives.
I just don't see how a true apology can come from someone still in twi. It's like dmiller called an oxymoron. Twi is run to control other people through pain and intimidation. I just don't see how a heartfelt apology can be given in that situation.
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markomalley
I think that a person can sincerely apologize for offending somebody, while holding his position on an issue. "I apologize if I offended you."
It could be that somebody did not communicate his ideas properly, with the appropriate sensitivity, or whatever. Or that somebody spoke when he should have simply remained silent.
A person could also do that without sincerity. But the same person could, without sincerity, apologize unconditionally.
God knows the hearts of men. I don't.
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krys
I'm not negating anything previously. It's all good. I agree.
However I'd like to add something:
Sometimes we don't judge people's abilities correctly. I'm a pretty smart person, but I know many who are smarter than I am. I know a lot who aren't as smart. I'm a reasonably verbal person. I can write what I mean most of the time, but I'm not like those with WordWolf's or Raf's skills. People are people. And we have to give them credit for just what they are and what they can do.*
*
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washingtonweather
I dunno Mark, out the abundance of the heart and all that...I think some people still use it to manipulate because they ARE people.
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Linda Z
I can give a clear example of what I believe Oak is saying.
RFR, when I was on staff, manipulated/guilted me to stay in a staff position I despeately wanted to leave. Then, as soon as Corps Week rolled around, she unilaterally changed my assignment behind my back, lied to others about me, then lied to me about what she had done. When confronted, she said, "Why Leeunduh, ahm so sorry ah hurt ya feelin's."
Duh. My feelings weren't hurt. I was pi$$ed because I'd been lied about and lied to and squeezed into a position I didn't want to be in. Hers was no apology. In essence, what she was saying was that the problem was mine. That I was too sensitive or had misunderstood or whatever. She took absolutely no responsibility for her wrongdoing. It was a pseudo-apology, at best.
Edited to restore pi$$ed.
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Rocky
Ah... one of my pet peeves. Good topic.
I don't know how many times I've heard "I'm sorry YOU feel that way."
Now, as to the opening post, the way I look at it is that if the person "apologizing" is trying to say he recognizes that his words or actions are what the problem is, then I accept it. I believe the statement, "I apologize if I offended you," is such that it does recognize the responsibility for the offense is with the person giving the apologizing. HOWEVER -- when someone tries to tell me they are sorry for something THEY are NOT responsible for -- that is inherently insincere and disingenuous. Therefore, I generally reply something like "don't apologize for my feelings, apologize instead for your actions/words."
I have found that there are plenty of people who don't "get it." By that, I mean that they don't understand what they just did/said by trying to apologize for something they aren't responsible for. Some do understand and intend their insincerity.
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cman
So the phrase itself is really not the problem.
It's meaning that the speaker has behind it is.
If I say I apologize if I offended...
Then I hopefully mean that the 'I' is the problem.
Meaning I didn't communicate well.
And not the 'if'.
Implying that the other person has the problem.
Good subject to bring up Oaks.
I'm sure I'm as guilty as anyone.
Will try to communicate better in that regard.
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Belle
I suppose online it's hard to tell since tone of voice doesn't carry. Of course, those who have been around for a long time, tend to know how to 'read' the posts of other long time posters.
Linda, Bob Moynihan "apologized" with his perfected sarcastic sneer and wave of the hand when I talked to Dottie and him about problems with TWI. "I'm sooooo sorry if I've hurt anyone... "
Gee, thanks, Bob, why even bother? :unsure:
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doojable
Ok- I've been on both sides of this argument in my life.
I learned to say the words, "I'm sorry...." while all the while apologizing for nothing with my step mother.
I stopped doing that when I encountered that attitiude in TWI and watched and listened with disgusted amazement as leadership not only used those words but also lived the phrase, "It's easier to get permission than forgiveness."
Now - sometimes I DO say "I'm sorry if I offended you....." BUT I mean it sincerely - and I ONLY use this phrase if it is unclear if I have truly offended the person in question. Afterall, sometimes its not that I have offended a person - but rather that something offensive has arisen but still needs to be dealt with.
One time in GSC I was accused of doing something that I KNEW I didn't do, but I asked for forgiveness anyway. WHY? I did that because I felt it very necessary to show humility in the situation.
It seems to me that we can strain at gnats or give folks the benefit of the doubt.
HEY - did you notice that the two folks on the thread in question that supposedly had the disagreement haven't posted here? I would say that they are fine with the way it was handled - or they chose not to air the dirty laundry.
NICE
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ChasUFarley
I don't apologize to make people I may have offended go away.
I don't apologize when I don't feel or KNOW I haven't made a mistake - it's admitting to an error that isn't there. BUT if there's a misunderstanding as to why someone thinks they're offended, then I will apologize for the confusion - and explain why I said or did what I did.
I don't use words like "IF" or "BUT" in my apologies - it's like making a pinkie promise with your fingers crossed - you don't really mean it - you're just going thru the motions.
If two parties with different points of view will shut up long enough to hear each other out, perhaps an apology isn't necessary but just identifying where they will never agree or see eye-to-eye is needed. (Agree to disagree and go about their merry ways.)
Just my thoughts - you're welcome to disagree - I won't be offended. :)
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