It remains to be seen how CES/STF will respond to this and other reproof. I am still hoping for the best from the Theisens, Dan Gallagher, John Schoenheit and John Lynn.
Hi Chrispy, I'm not singling you out here... just borrowing a couple of your lines... your sentiments quoted above have also been stated by others...
It sounds to me (and my perception could be wrong) that folks are "hoping for the best from the Theisens, Dan Gallagher, John Schoenheit and John Lynn" so they'll be able to get CES/STFI "back on track" or as Jeff put it:
Actually, John Schoenhiet and Dan Gallagher have been trying to get it shifted for years. I can't speak for the Theisen's, but I know they now see it and are working to get the balance back.
What is there to "balance"? That practice needs to be banished from CES/STFI doesn't it?
I clearly understand "praying for" or "hoping for the best" for these folks, but wouldn't you also want that for the Graeser's?
I may have missed it, but I don't think I've read anything in any of these posts about "praying for" or "hoping for the best" for the Graeser's... Which leads me to my perception that people still want these other folks to remain in positions of high responsibility in CES/STFI. This is what really puzzles me: if all of these folks were in the higher levels of responsibility WHILE ALL OF THIS WAS HAPPENING, and they didn't stop it or "blow the whistle" or whatever you want to call it... why would you want them to remain in the position of responsibility?
Sure pray for them, hope for the best for them... and the Graeser's, too, but I wouldn't want them "still running" CES/STFI if I was involved... how could I trust them again? That doesn't mean I wouldn't be able to love them, etc... it just means that I wouldn't want them having stewardship over CES/STFI... at least not for the foreseeable future. They allowed it to happen as well.
Yes, Tom, you missed a few posts caling for prayer for all involved.
Folks.....the exact evil being brought to light here (harm done to people under the guise of 'God's gracious personal prophecies') is only 1 face of ungodliness in CES. So just banning a practice of personal prophecies, though a wonderful start, is not much different from just dropping a few of TWI's errorneous doctrines.....
It's still a "To Do list" to check off as quickly as possible so we can get this BEHIND us.
The problem is we need to get it OUT of us!
'Head' decisions do not mean the 'heart' has changed, and so history will continue to repeat itself, only each time it gets more and more wickedly subtle and harmful.
Every CES leader and/or follower needs to REPENT if he 'signed onto' the damage done to people through Karen Anne's (and others') personal prophecies or interpretations of dreams/visions. Each leader and/or CES follower who has based his life's choices on those things also needs to REPENT. And when that happens, as I said before, it will be both public and private. Also, each leader/follower needs the HUMILITY to place himself under subjection to, as others have said, a local church===whose pastor might not have talked every 'accurate doctrine' but will have walked a life that did not include a growing list of people he harmed while in his care.
Almost axiomatically, any CES leader who wakes up from being so spiritually blind that he either did not know this harm was going on, so deceived that he did not define it as harm, so self-righteous to think that since it wasn't his 'word' it's not his sin, or so devoid of love that he didn't want to risk his own annihilation by crying 'foul' about the annihilation of others will, IMHO, immediately excuse himself from any leadership role.
Jeepers creepers! After reading the first portion of this thread it was quite enlightening. The letter of prophecy sounds more like something from a seance rather than a word of exortation as we grew up with and knew. This stuff justs saddens me to know that these same people we walked and talked with. It seems it has went from a cult to an occult. This stuff is frightening. To have a board to actually sanction a prophecy is another entire control issue. We need to pray for these believers to get out.
Something VP said that has stood me well..." God is big enough to tell you something first, he doesn't need to tell someone to tell you..." ( if'n yer listenin' of course. ) God told me to get my family the hell away from twi and to stay the hell away from ces.
Also, each leader/follower needs the HUMILITY to place himself under subjection to, as others have said, a local church===whose pastor might not have talked every 'accurate doctrine' but will have walked a life that did not include a growing list of people he harmed while in his care.
Too many thoughts, not enough words......
When people get hurt - when people are treated as property or commodities, when people are expendable......something is truly wrong.
Yea -- I am saddened by those who have never had anything to do with CES,
making comments detrimental to the heart of those who started it.
A person does not have to have been a part of something to see that it is detrimental to the heart of those who are followers. Those who give their trust and love to these "overseers" once again to be taken on some bizarre ride. If I see a child run into the road and a car is coming, I don't have to have "experienced being hit by a car" before I run out and try to get the child out of harms way. I know if the child gets hit, he will most likely get hurt or even die. That is just common sense.
If you've never heard BB King play, but are a fan of the blues --
(please) don't offer a commentary on his rendition thereof.
Same thing -- you know not whereof you speak.
People know scriptures from the same bible that they are teaching from, therefore that does qualify them to comment. In addition, it was brought out here on an open forum so I believe that makes it an open disscusion.
I for one am glad this came out in the open, as I had no idea about it.
And yes -- I can do without all the *snide* comments about CES,
and the cheap comparisions made to twi.
I am also glad this came out in the open as I am sure many followers had no idea about it. This is the problem with any group who has 3 or 4 peple who make the decisions for everyone. That letter from Elizabeth was certainly an eye opener. That was some of the most loving, godly reproof that I have ever heard. My concern is for the people and their hearts. This woman, Elizabeth, is really slicing it right.
As far as the "cheap comparisons made to TWI, I am not sure you can't compare them considering all of our pasts. Again, if your experiences have been great with a group, then GREAT, but that doesn't necessarily make it true for others.
Allen W amen to that. God is big enough to tell us first unless we are to thick to hear it at all or do not have the spirit to tell us so. Even so God as seen when Sarah was kidnapped from Abraham, God told that king to return her. He didn't have spirit upon him as I see it. This stuff with spiritual abuse reminds me of a scratched record that can not get out of the groove it is playing and skips back to the same song. Geez.
"I am also glad this came out in the open as I am sure many followers had no idea about it. This is the problem with any group who has 3 or 4 peple who make the decisions for everyone. That letter from Elizabeth was certainly an eye opener. That was some of the most loving, godly reproof that I have ever heard. My concern is for the people and their hearts. This woman, Elizabeth, is really slicing it right."
This situation is not the first...there has been a string of these...the letter was so right and so eye opening. Many things in her letter should have been written years ago...she just had the guts and love and go sign to do it. This has to come out and will help many others not to get tied up with these kind of ungodly situations.
Pray for all involved. For those involved with manipulation and ungodly actions (we can all relate in some way)...(I do think they thought what they were doing was right)...that when they truly see what has been done to many, I pray they will fall on their faces and go to God with every ounce of their being.
ex10, with all due respect I'm not "taking on" anyone. I would hope that you know me well enough by now to know that I typically avoid things like that with a few exceptions and my comments were in no way intended to be an attack on Chrispy, merely an observation and comment that the defensive comments and justification for the leaders of CES sound exactly like those who defend(ed) vee pee and other leaders in TWI.
I would apologize, but it would be most likely labeled as offensive and insincere, "I'm sorry that you're offended BUT I'm not sorry for what I said or for my personal observations of CES and the leadership and the impression of the comments attempting to defend them."
What seems to me is that this is a replay of the reading of POP, the "fog years" and even WayDale days. Those working so hard to defend the offenders (and allowing these things to happen at the top level makes one an offender in my book) are most likely too emotionally involved to be able to see things for what they are OR they are too defensive (and scared?) to allow other viewpoints to be voiced. *shrug*
This is the way I see it and have yet to see any rational, logical explanation that it's not:
TWI was started (as some believe) with honorable intentions
CES was started (as some believe) with honorable intentions
TWI was started (as some believe) with very good teachings by someone well versed in scripture
CES was started (as some believe) with very good teachings by someone well versed in scripture
TWI, at some point in time, became "off the wall" in some doctrinal areas
CES, has obviously become "off the wall" in some doctrinal areas
TWI experienced folks pointing out these doctrinal errors, those folks were kicked out, coerced into towing the company line or simply left.
CES experienced folks pointing out these doctrinal errors, those folks were kicked out, coerced into towing the company line, ignored or simply left.
TWI managed to keep much of this in the closet with other skeletons that only a select few knew about.
CES has managed to keep much of this in the closet with other skeletons that are now being exposed.
TWI experienced a "split" after POP and there was a lot of defensive posturing on the parts of folks. Each person chose sides, usually based on personal experiences, respect (and worship?) of certain leaders and other folks involved.
CES appears to have an awful lot of defensive posturing on the parts of folks and it comes down to defending certain leaders and excusing their behavior (or lack thereof).
Some see TWI as a great organization, but people are imperfect, so there will be problems.
Some see CES the same way.
Both sets, in this case, justify all the harm, abuse and destruction because "they teach/taught the word".
TWI has been proven to meddle in the private and personal affairs of others where it's none of their business.
CES has been proven to meddle in the private and personal affairs of others where it's none of their business.
But TWI saved my life.... Taught me the word.... There was much good in TWI... It's worth saving the ministry - don't throw away the ministry just because of a few bad leaders. (you can still here that today in and outside the walls of TWI)
That seems to be what I'm hearing from CES folks.
There's more comparisons that can be made long these lines, but I think this is enough to make my point that I don't have to be involved with CES to see the same pattern repeating itself. I'm not "rejoicing in iniquity", merely seeing come to pass what I feel can only be expected by people who try too hard to hold onto Way Brain. Way Brain by any other name is still Way Brain and it's still destroying lives. And there are still those who will defend the leaders who cause and/or allow this to happen... some because THEY never personally experienced tragedy at the hands of them.
How is CES and what they're going through different from TWI and what TWI's gone through a few times? Cause I don't see much difference.
I'm commenting on this because I despise what TWI did to people and I'm disgusted that those folks at CES apparently didn't learn the lesson and now more innocent lives have been destroyed because of the egos of those in leadership positions.
I heard about John Lynn's divorce from Elizabeth and confronted him, but he said that it was allowed because she (Elizabeth) had hardened her heart. I was shocked that he would so blatantly twist the word like that. That was when I decided that he was bewitched. Maybe all of this on this thread will help wake him from his spiritual slumber and be a man again.
JAL-
I hope you read this John. I really care about you and love the good you have done ever since first meeting you in ~'88. But Karen Anne has your ----- on her mantle. Sorry to be crude. No other way to say it. But there is hope.
Regards,
Chrispy
Chrispy, golly I hope JAL would elaborate on this. I'd like to hear his side.
Yesterday I emailed John Lynn & John Schoenheit, mentioning about this thread and adding my two cents, that I thought the "prophetic counsel" and "personal prophecy" was destroying their group.
JAL emailed me back this morning, and said he didn't know anything about this thread but asked for the link, which I forwarded to him.
Hope he would share his thoughts, and particularly, his vision for the future.
We were involved with CES for a while. I went on a tour with them to Israel it was great. I carried the lights to every site, to allow for the filming of each teaching. I did not take notes, as we all knew that the video would soon be out and so I just enjoyed the teachings. A bunch of us worked on that project to get the filming just right. At each 'correct' location. That was in 2000. When I have asked about the video, I have been told that it is on a back burner and all but forgotten.
John S. has an incredible in-depth knowledge of the 'Holy Lands'. He is capable of delivering wonderful teachings, at the correct sites, explaining what happened at each location. Would anyone be interested in watching these videos? Sure they would. But they would rather focus on visions about spiders.
Our eldest son was tired of living in locations where there were no other like-minded believers, so he moved out there to be near CES, to be near a large group of like-minded believers. He took with him his own copies of PFAL on DVD, so he is very much familiar with exactly what doctrine is taught in each segment. He attended CES fellowships, and was troubled that each fellowship they would spend time, running down: "the evils that were taught in that other ministry". He spoke up numerous times, as they would launch into making up stuff that VPW 'taught'. He found that some of the CES fellowships have taken doctrines that WC taught to hurt folks and CES presents it all as taught in PFAL. He tried to fellowship with them, but he could not stomach the heaping of lies. [by all means there may be some error in PFAL, that topic has been debated endlessly. There is no good reason to make-up lies and attribute PFAL for other errors that folks came up with on their own.]
We did list our fellowship on the CES list of fellowships; for a while when CES was a group of 20 committees, and very un-organized.
But then they came out with a document that they wanted each fellowship coordinator to sign and swear to; before CES would further list your fellowship. I was given their 'code of conduct' contract to sign, and it was explained to us at that meeting. The leadership wanted their children to be able to travel and enjoy fellowships, and they wanted to ensure that the leadership's adult children would not be tempted to form any personal relationship with anyone not of CES leadership' choosing. So to protect their children from illicit adult relationships, they wrote their 'code of conduct' for fellowships.
I love to pray with folks; to study the Bible with others, to share the Bible with others, and to love and assist others. I have already sworn oaths to our government to uphold the UCMJ, as well as the constitution. I swear an oath of allegiance to our National flag.
I see no need to swear an oath to protect CES leadership' adult children from experiencing life.
CES does appear to have some wonderful people involved with it.
This stuff has ben out in the open for years it is the result of heading down roads like these: when you teach people to rely on personal prophetic guidance for direction in life, would it not stand to reason that those instructing this are doing the same? And if they are leading your ministry would you think that they are not using this to do so?
"Introduction to the Prophetic"
Prophetic Seminar 1999
Indianapolis IN
Partners' Price Only $30.00 Partners' Price Only $30.00
Tape 1 - "Introduction to the Prophetic" by Karen Anne Graeser
Tape 2 - "Seek to Excel" by John Lynn
Tape 3 - "Hearing God's Voice" by Karen Anne Graeser
Tape 4 - "I Cor 14: Discerning the Genuine from the Counterfeit" by Mark Graeser Tape 5A - "Prove All Things" by Gene Speakes
Tape 5B - " Evaluating Dominion Theology and the Prophetic" by Mark Graeser
Tape 6 - "Contending for the Faith" by John Schoenheit
Tape 7 & 8A - "Questions and Answers"
"Walking Courageously"
Prophetic Seminar 2000
Indianapolis IN
Partners' Price Only $30.00 Partners' Price Only $30.00
Tape 1 - " Walking Courageously" by Karen Anne Graeser
Tape 2 - "Action Cures Fear" by John Lynn
Tape 3 - "Understanding Prophecy" by John Schoenheit Tape 4 & 5 - "Question & Answer Session" by John Schoenheit and Karen Anne Graeser
Tape 6 - "The Genuine Vs the Counterfeit" by John Schoenheit
Tape 7 - "See it Big; Keep it Simple" by Karen Anne Graeser
(Jan '02)
4 Keys to Evaluating Prophetic Guidance Tape $4
CD $6
Prophecy, both personal and corporate, is one of God's provisions for the Church Age, and more and more Christians are embracing prophets and "personal prophecy." With its popularity, however, have come abuses and misunderstandings, and this teaching aims to empower the listener with the keys to evaluating all forms of prophetic guidance. Armed with this knowledge, the Christian need not fear the ministry of a prophet or even false prophets, but can separate truth from error and God's voice from the human element. How to stand responsibly in regard to a prophetic word is also discussed, in order to not bring discredit to God, the ministry of a prophet, or the manifestation of prophecy. By Karen Anne Graeser.
I was asked last night in chat why I was posting on this thread. I replied 'because I'm curious'. I'm curious as to what folks feelings are, the folks that are involved with CES. There have been a number, a large number of excellent, thoughtful posts on this thread.
I think it's valid for any of us who wish to, to post on this thread. We were in TWI, which CES/STFI sprang from. Offense seemed to be taken to "cheap comparisons to TWI". In my opinion it shouldn't have been. Belle's post points out a lot of similarities. My last post, where I ask about folks wanting to keep the leaders when they knew what was happening, infers another comparison... I just didn't flat out say it. The comparison was that leaders knew what was going on and did nothing... or if they did something and it didn't work, stayed around anyway... in my mind this makes them complicit as well...
I'm only referring to the 'prophetic council' stuff... that there are other big problems has been brought up as well, I don't know about them...
I don't 'rejoice' in any of this. I don't think that anyone here really does... as all of us have been through something similar before. I understand that a lot of folks here are finding out these things, or the depth of these things, for the first time and are shocked and heartbroken and have a natural impulse to defend, what in their hearts and minds, are good people and a good ministry... wasn't that also a lot of folks first reaction when in TWI? It/they may have been... I think it's starting to unfold here what it/they are now...
As you folks from CES/STFI that are new here come to "see what's going on" please make sure you read:
Post #172 on page 9 (by Socks), this post offers some excellent advice
Post #190 on page 10 (by Mark Sanguinetti), this post shows (in detail) how this 'prophecy' business being wrong was brought before the CES/STFI leaders in 2000
Iemailed Mark G early yesterday, and he replyed he did not know about it , they are not lovers of grease spot and shun this site, JL has asked the posters here to "get a life" .
not that im a stellar member or trying to be, my point is they will not respond here. after metioning this thread Mark has now blocked my email address.
I was not rude i just asked him to respond to the questioned raised here.
I have no intention of posting what he wrote me, it was not anything really but more of I do not know what is going on and elizabeth should be discounted.
I see alot of what Galen said as truth, and the problem with trying to control ther people is bottom line it just doesnt work, and that is a most difficult lesson in life, and when your own children as Galen said can not experience lifebecause of "love" of the parents, where does that leave the Lord in life other than the parents trying to be in that position?
Jesus christ is real and I have learned that He is the Saviour of mankind so deeply it even implies to those I love the most.
I no longer try to be God to my kids they are grown and have a Lord as much as I do.
problem is parents are so accustom to being the one who has the say and control in children, and often build an idol within the family about control and they think should be in line for life for them and then.. it gets out of perspective BEcause the Lord doesnt like it. it isnt loving somone it is controling people and playing God . it erases His job.
The tapes Tom shows have been out in the open for years.
What has not been 'out in the open for years' is the plethora of day-to-day 'prophecies' served up to leadership and followers alike, especially those who chose to dissent on some matter. Those who dissent have been (and in my experience up to this month) are still being handled just as Belle so well outlined. If they 'stay down' all looks peaceful again. If they do not, they get another 'word,' another round of 'counseling' with leadership, or more 'loving' phone calls. And if that does not keep them down, they must be discredited before they talk to you and 'take you out'. (All under the guise of protecting the sheep of course.)
What has not been 'out in the open for years' is the torment people have been put through, the many ungodly incidents people have detailed to CES Board members, the dismissals such as "you're the only one who has brought this up," 'your perspective is skewed," "I didn't finish reading your letter because I've heard it all before," the attacks such as "you are utterly incapable of handling honest communication and love," "you don't have the heart or skills to ___", and the grease-spot-type threats, "you don't want to fight against what God is fighting for."
What has not been 'out in the open for years' is the day-to-day 'advice' full of psychological mumbo-jumbo (sold as--and probably believed to be--Christian) used to accuse many people of 'needing psychiatric help', used to counsel many couples who are now divorced, and used to literally tell people to get a divorce because it will 'help wake up' their errant spouse.
This sin and more needs to be brought into the open, not so people can count these brothers and sisters as enemies, but so people can admonish them as brothers and make a decision to pray for them (who else will?), and also can choose whom they will follow/support, not just regarding this tiny thing called CES but in all of life.
Interesting to see that at least something might be done in CES. I'm glad for that.. It's a man made ministry, so I really could care less whether the "ministry" stands or falls. Because God is still God. Jesus is still our Lord. And we still have life! And the true church will still stand. The word ministry in the Bible is the word for serving. Not a "Bible club" which to me is all TWI and CES and the majority of churches / ministries have become. Just because they know Jesus, even personally, doesn't mean they follow Him. And if they follow Him, they won't be following man or a man made ministry. The body of Christ is to be made up of active members following Christ (serving). And it ain't for serving Koolaid!
When I first left TWI, I went to a CES fellowship. And I saw this problem first hand.. First it was with the Personal prophecies.. I remember they were trying to discuss for their next upcoming event how to make it avialable so everyone could get their personal "prophecy"(aka reading) done by Karen and one other person.. Of course they go to the scriptures in Corithians 14 about prophecy, but give me a break, everyone all of a sudden needs their palm read on what God wants them to do? What is the point? I don't recall Elijah going to a town and having everyone lined up so he could give them their own personal word of the Lord. And then they tried to teach everyone how to give a personal prophecy. Oh, don't worry if you mess up the first couple tries, it's a learned thing. Umm, yeah, much like Speaking in tongues with interpretation in TWI. I let one of their big wigs give me a personal prophecy only for them to be so far in left field I didn't know where they pulled it out of the hat. (And this was one of their experienced teachers of personal prophecy!) I told him so too, and he just chalked it up to a mistake.. A mistake?! That's man for you and man's ministry. (Ok women too).
Course for any in CES, the latest Sower ought to tell you what Mark thinks about leadership. Just as much as the latest Way Mag gives you enough idea what their top leaders think of believing for miracles instead of trusting God. In the latest Sower about leadership, Mark likened it all to how much "influence" one has on others. And the highest leader is nothing more than the one who influences the most. And his idea of 360 leadership is that you were influenced by a leader (Namely the top dog, Him!) and now you influence others thus becoming a leader. So it's all about how much "influence" you can have on others. That's leadership?! GIve me a break! That's not leadership, that just trying to see how much koolaid you can get people to drink! And he sure has got a good group of CESers drinking the personal prophecy koolaid and thinking his wife is such a great artist, selling her prophetically produced portraits at their events.
No different than TWI. They sell koolaid and call it God's Word. I'm not speaking about the individuals, but the man-made ministry as a whole. I have no doubt Scheinheit and Lynn love GOd. But CES is in the same boat TWI is. They lift the teaching of God's Word above everything in the ministry, thus sayeth the Lord, only it really is thus sayeth Mark or John or Rosalie or LCM.
When will people wake up. The harvest is great. It's time to be working. Not making our own man-made groups with men at the helm leading it (having influence over others) and trying to see how he can keep leading it. Let him who wishes to be greatest among you be your SERVANT. Jesus never taught that it's for us to be serving the leaders. It's the other way around! You want to lead, then get out there and work. That's how you lead. Whether or not people follow and drink your koolaid. And even if they are influenced by your work, your not their leader, Christ is. So if any man is trying to "lead" people, they aren't following Christ, they are following their man made visions. Love, give, share, help, bless, care for, admonish, lift up, encourage, and teach all for the purpose of pointing them in the right direction to follow Christ, NOT YOU! If God wanted people made in your image, he would have done it. And that's all man made leaders do, is try and influence people to their image of what you should be. Christ is our head. Not man!
Matthew 23:1-12 "Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe,that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
One is your teacher.. ANd it ain't Mark, John, Rosalie, LCM, your pastor, or anyone else. They may be great in influencing you, but the point is to get busy in following Christ, not the man who influenced you, who should have influenced you to follow Christ, not himself.
Thank you TrustAndObey! I appreciate your point of view. In my heart of hearts, I believe this is the closest thing to God's heart written here on this thread.
Am I the only one who almost got physically nauseaus reading Elizabeth's letter?
The demonic accusations this woman has had to endure under the guise of "prophecy." The - ok, I'll say it, though I hate to - the "devlishness" of the prophetic council - truly, satan's ministers have been working overtime masquerading as ministers of light.
The hate, creulty and condemnation they have driven into this woman's life to the point of contemplating ending it - this is not of God.
I don't care how "strong" JAL is in the "word" - anyone can memorize verses and chapters, but to allow anyone to gossip and accuse one's wife like that is disgusting and shameful in my book.
The sad thing is, I used to be great friends with KA - she did some loving wonderful things for me in residence. As of this point, she is not God's instrument.
Did not anyone else get sick readings these prophecies that sound like they came from the pit of hell?
The hatred and animosity towards this woman Elizabeth.
Sure, it takes two to tango, but no one deserves what has been heaped upon her by the Accuser.
May she wipe the dust off her feet and move on, and may these people have their eyes enlightened and fall on their knees and beg God forgiveness for the shame, hurt and evil they have done.
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Hi Chrispy, I'm not singling you out here... just borrowing a couple of your lines... your sentiments quoted above have also been stated by others...
It sounds to me (and my perception could be wrong) that folks are "hoping for the best from the Theisens, Dan Gallagher, John Schoenheit and John Lynn" so they'll be able to get CES/STFI "back on track" or as Jeff put it:
What is there to "balance"? That practice needs to be banished from CES/STFI doesn't it?
I clearly understand "praying for" or "hoping for the best" for these folks, but wouldn't you also want that for the Graeser's?
I may have missed it, but I don't think I've read anything in any of these posts about "praying for" or "hoping for the best" for the Graeser's... Which leads me to my perception that people still want these other folks to remain in positions of high responsibility in CES/STFI. This is what really puzzles me: if all of these folks were in the higher levels of responsibility WHILE ALL OF THIS WAS HAPPENING, and they didn't stop it or "blow the whistle" or whatever you want to call it... why would you want them to remain in the position of responsibility?
Sure pray for them, hope for the best for them... and the Graeser's, too, but I wouldn't want them "still running" CES/STFI if I was involved... how could I trust them again? That doesn't mean I wouldn't be able to love them, etc... it just means that I wouldn't want them having stewardship over CES/STFI... at least not for the foreseeable future. They allowed it to happen as well.
Or have I missed something?
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dmiller
CW---yer ok with me.
Always have been, and always will be. ;)
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therebutforgrace
Yes, Tom, you missed a few posts caling for prayer for all involved.
Folks.....the exact evil being brought to light here (harm done to people under the guise of 'God's gracious personal prophecies') is only 1 face of ungodliness in CES. So just banning a practice of personal prophecies, though a wonderful start, is not much different from just dropping a few of TWI's errorneous doctrines.....
It's still a "To Do list" to check off as quickly as possible so we can get this BEHIND us.
The problem is we need to get it OUT of us!
'Head' decisions do not mean the 'heart' has changed, and so history will continue to repeat itself, only each time it gets more and more wickedly subtle and harmful.
Every CES leader and/or follower needs to REPENT if he 'signed onto' the damage done to people through Karen Anne's (and others') personal prophecies or interpretations of dreams/visions. Each leader and/or CES follower who has based his life's choices on those things also needs to REPENT. And when that happens, as I said before, it will be both public and private. Also, each leader/follower needs the HUMILITY to place himself under subjection to, as others have said, a local church===whose pastor might not have talked every 'accurate doctrine' but will have walked a life that did not include a growing list of people he harmed while in his care.
Almost axiomatically, any CES leader who wakes up from being so spiritually blind that he either did not know this harm was going on, so deceived that he did not define it as harm, so self-righteous to think that since it wasn't his 'word' it's not his sin, or so devoid of love that he didn't want to risk his own annihilation by crying 'foul' about the annihilation of others will, IMHO, immediately excuse himself from any leadership role.
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fellowshipper
Jeepers creepers! After reading the first portion of this thread it was quite enlightening. The letter of prophecy sounds more like something from a seance rather than a word of exortation as we grew up with and knew. This stuff justs saddens me to know that these same people we walked and talked with. It seems it has went from a cult to an occult. This stuff is frightening. To have a board to actually sanction a prophecy is another entire control issue. We need to pray for these believers to get out.
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allan w.
Something VP said that has stood me well..." God is big enough to tell you something first, he doesn't need to tell someone to tell you..." ( if'n yer listenin' of course. ) God told me to get my family the hell away from twi and to stay the hell away from ces.
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doojable
Too many thoughts, not enough words......
When people get hurt - when people are treated as property or commodities, when people are expendable......something is truly wrong.
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outofdafog
Sounding the alarm is not being judgemental.
Yea -- I am saddened by those who have never had anything to do with CES,
making comments detrimental to the heart of those who started it.
A person does not have to have been a part of something to see that it is detrimental to the heart of those who are followers. Those who give their trust and love to these "overseers" once again to be taken on some bizarre ride. If I see a child run into the road and a car is coming, I don't have to have "experienced being hit by a car" before I run out and try to get the child out of harms way. I know if the child gets hit, he will most likely get hurt or even die. That is just common sense.
If you've never heard BB King play, but are a fan of the blues --
(please) don't offer a commentary on his rendition thereof.
Same thing -- you know not whereof you speak.
People know scriptures from the same bible that they are teaching from, therefore that does qualify them to comment. In addition, it was brought out here on an open forum so I believe that makes it an open disscusion.
I for one am glad this came out in the open, as I had no idea about it.
And yes -- I can do without all the *snide* comments about CES,
and the cheap comparisions made to twi.
I am also glad this came out in the open as I am sure many followers had no idea about it. This is the problem with any group who has 3 or 4 peple who make the decisions for everyone. That letter from Elizabeth was certainly an eye opener. That was some of the most loving, godly reproof that I have ever heard. My concern is for the people and their hearts. This woman, Elizabeth, is really slicing it right.
As far as the "cheap comparisons made to TWI, I am not sure you can't compare them considering all of our pasts. Again, if your experiences have been great with a group, then GREAT, but that doesn't necessarily make it true for others.
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cman
Kind of funny how CES got started.
The adultry paper then pop.
And I had the distinct impression that it was a lot about diverting abs to ces.
That was in the beginning, which really the beginning is based on what wierwille taught too.
So I don't see a problem with breaking this egg open right here at gsc.
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fellowshipper
Allen W amen to that. God is big enough to tell us first unless we are to thick to hear it at all or do not have the spirit to tell us so. Even so God as seen when Sarah was kidnapped from Abraham, God told that king to return her. He didn't have spirit upon him as I see it. This stuff with spiritual abuse reminds me of a scratched record that can not get out of the groove it is playing and skips back to the same song. Geez.
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J0nny Ling0
Amen Hondo.
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onefinecustom
"I am also glad this came out in the open as I am sure many followers had no idea about it. This is the problem with any group who has 3 or 4 peple who make the decisions for everyone. That letter from Elizabeth was certainly an eye opener. That was some of the most loving, godly reproof that I have ever heard. My concern is for the people and their hearts. This woman, Elizabeth, is really slicing it right."
This situation is not the first...there has been a string of these...the letter was so right and so eye opening. Many things in her letter should have been written years ago...she just had the guts and love and go sign to do it. This has to come out and will help many others not to get tied up with these kind of ungodly situations.
Pray for all involved. For those involved with manipulation and ungodly actions (we can all relate in some way)...(I do think they thought what they were doing was right)...that when they truly see what has been done to many, I pray they will fall on their faces and go to God with every ounce of their being.
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Belle
ex10, with all due respect I'm not "taking on" anyone. I would hope that you know me well enough by now to know that I typically avoid things like that with a few exceptions and my comments were in no way intended to be an attack on Chrispy, merely an observation and comment that the defensive comments and justification for the leaders of CES sound exactly like those who defend(ed) vee pee and other leaders in TWI.
I would apologize, but it would be most likely labeled as offensive and insincere, "I'm sorry that you're offended BUT I'm not sorry for what I said or for my personal observations of CES and the leadership and the impression of the comments attempting to defend them."
What seems to me is that this is a replay of the reading of POP, the "fog years" and even WayDale days. Those working so hard to defend the offenders (and allowing these things to happen at the top level makes one an offender in my book) are most likely too emotionally involved to be able to see things for what they are OR they are too defensive (and scared?) to allow other viewpoints to be voiced. *shrug*
This is the way I see it and have yet to see any rational, logical explanation that it's not:
TWI was started (as some believe) with honorable intentions
CES was started (as some believe) with honorable intentions
TWI was started (as some believe) with very good teachings by someone well versed in scripture
CES was started (as some believe) with very good teachings by someone well versed in scripture
TWI, at some point in time, became "off the wall" in some doctrinal areas
CES, has obviously become "off the wall" in some doctrinal areas
TWI experienced folks pointing out these doctrinal errors, those folks were kicked out, coerced into towing the company line or simply left.
CES experienced folks pointing out these doctrinal errors, those folks were kicked out, coerced into towing the company line, ignored or simply left.
TWI managed to keep much of this in the closet with other skeletons that only a select few knew about.
CES has managed to keep much of this in the closet with other skeletons that are now being exposed.
TWI experienced a "split" after POP and there was a lot of defensive posturing on the parts of folks. Each person chose sides, usually based on personal experiences, respect (and worship?) of certain leaders and other folks involved.
CES appears to have an awful lot of defensive posturing on the parts of folks and it comes down to defending certain leaders and excusing their behavior (or lack thereof).
Some see TWI as a great organization, but people are imperfect, so there will be problems.
Some see CES the same way.
TWI has been proven to meddle in the private and personal affairs of others where it's none of their business.
CES has been proven to meddle in the private and personal affairs of others where it's none of their business.
But TWI saved my life.... Taught me the word.... There was much good in TWI... It's worth saving the ministry - don't throw away the ministry just because of a few bad leaders. (you can still here that today in and outside the walls of TWI)
That seems to be what I'm hearing from CES folks.
There's more comparisons that can be made long these lines, but I think this is enough to make my point that I don't have to be involved with CES to see the same pattern repeating itself. I'm not "rejoicing in iniquity", merely seeing come to pass what I feel can only be expected by people who try too hard to hold onto Way Brain. Way Brain by any other name is still Way Brain and it's still destroying lives. And there are still those who will defend the leaders who cause and/or allow this to happen... some because THEY never personally experienced tragedy at the hands of them.
How is CES and what they're going through different from TWI and what TWI's gone through a few times? Cause I don't see much difference.
I'm commenting on this because I despise what TWI did to people and I'm disgusted that those folks at CES apparently didn't learn the lesson and now more innocent lives have been destroyed because of the egos of those in leadership positions.
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oldiesman
Chrispy, golly I hope JAL would elaborate on this. I'd like to hear his side.
Yesterday I emailed John Lynn & John Schoenheit, mentioning about this thread and adding my two cents, that I thought the "prophetic counsel" and "personal prophecy" was destroying their group.
JAL emailed me back this morning, and said he didn't know anything about this thread but asked for the link, which I forwarded to him.
Hope he would share his thoughts, and particularly, his vision for the future.
I'd like to hear Schoenheit's views too.
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Galen
We were involved with CES for a while. I went on a tour with them to Israel it was great. I carried the lights to every site, to allow for the filming of each teaching. I did not take notes, as we all knew that the video would soon be out and so I just enjoyed the teachings. A bunch of us worked on that project to get the filming just right. At each 'correct' location. That was in 2000. When I have asked about the video, I have been told that it is on a back burner and all but forgotten.
John S. has an incredible in-depth knowledge of the 'Holy Lands'. He is capable of delivering wonderful teachings, at the correct sites, explaining what happened at each location. Would anyone be interested in watching these videos? Sure they would. But they would rather focus on visions about spiders.
Our eldest son was tired of living in locations where there were no other like-minded believers, so he moved out there to be near CES, to be near a large group of like-minded believers. He took with him his own copies of PFAL on DVD, so he is very much familiar with exactly what doctrine is taught in each segment. He attended CES fellowships, and was troubled that each fellowship they would spend time, running down: "the evils that were taught in that other ministry". He spoke up numerous times, as they would launch into making up stuff that VPW 'taught'. He found that some of the CES fellowships have taken doctrines that WC taught to hurt folks and CES presents it all as taught in PFAL. He tried to fellowship with them, but he could not stomach the heaping of lies. [by all means there may be some error in PFAL, that topic has been debated endlessly. There is no good reason to make-up lies and attribute PFAL for other errors that folks came up with on their own.]
We did list our fellowship on the CES list of fellowships; for a while when CES was a group of 20 committees, and very un-organized.
But then they came out with a document that they wanted each fellowship coordinator to sign and swear to; before CES would further list your fellowship. I was given their 'code of conduct' contract to sign, and it was explained to us at that meeting. The leadership wanted their children to be able to travel and enjoy fellowships, and they wanted to ensure that the leadership's adult children would not be tempted to form any personal relationship with anyone not of CES leadership' choosing. So to protect their children from illicit adult relationships, they wrote their 'code of conduct' for fellowships.
I love to pray with folks; to study the Bible with others, to share the Bible with others, and to love and assist others. I have already sworn oaths to our government to uphold the UCMJ, as well as the constitution. I swear an oath of allegiance to our National flag.
I see no need to swear an oath to protect CES leadership' adult children from experiencing life.
CES does appear to have some wonderful people involved with it.
We will continue to pray for them.
Galen
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WhiteDove
This stuff has ben out in the open for years it is the result of heading down roads like these: when you teach people to rely on personal prophetic guidance for direction in life, would it not stand to reason that those instructing this are doing the same? And if they are leading your ministry would you think that they are not using this to do so?
"Introduction to the Prophetic"
Prophetic Seminar 1999
Indianapolis IN
Partners' Price Only $30.00 Partners' Price Only $30.00
Tape 1 - "Introduction to the Prophetic" by Karen Anne Graeser
Tape 2 - "Seek to Excel" by John Lynn
Tape 3 - "Hearing God's Voice" by Karen Anne Graeser
Tape 4 - "I Cor 14: Discerning the Genuine from the Counterfeit" by Mark Graeser Tape 5A - "Prove All Things" by Gene Speakes
Tape 5B - " Evaluating Dominion Theology and the Prophetic" by Mark Graeser
Tape 6 - "Contending for the Faith" by John Schoenheit
Tape 7 & 8A - "Questions and Answers"
"Walking Courageously"
Prophetic Seminar 2000
Indianapolis IN
Partners' Price Only $30.00 Partners' Price Only $30.00
Tape 1 - " Walking Courageously" by Karen Anne Graeser
Tape 2 - "Action Cures Fear" by John Lynn
Tape 3 - "Understanding Prophecy" by John Schoenheit Tape 4 & 5 - "Question & Answer Session" by John Schoenheit and Karen Anne Graeser
Tape 6 - "The Genuine Vs the Counterfeit" by John Schoenheit
Tape 7 - "See it Big; Keep it Simple" by Karen Anne Graeser
(Jan '02)
4 Keys to Evaluating Prophetic Guidance Tape $4
CD $6
Prophecy, both personal and corporate, is one of God's provisions for the Church Age, and more and more Christians are embracing prophets and "personal prophecy." With its popularity, however, have come abuses and misunderstandings, and this teaching aims to empower the listener with the keys to evaluating all forms of prophetic guidance. Armed with this knowledge, the Christian need not fear the ministry of a prophet or even false prophets, but can separate truth from error and God's voice from the human element. How to stand responsibly in regard to a prophetic word is also discussed, in order to not bring discredit to God, the ministry of a prophet, or the manifestation of prophecy. By Karen Anne Graeser.
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Tom Strange
I was asked last night in chat why I was posting on this thread. I replied 'because I'm curious'. I'm curious as to what folks feelings are, the folks that are involved with CES. There have been a number, a large number of excellent, thoughtful posts on this thread.
I think it's valid for any of us who wish to, to post on this thread. We were in TWI, which CES/STFI sprang from. Offense seemed to be taken to "cheap comparisons to TWI". In my opinion it shouldn't have been. Belle's post points out a lot of similarities. My last post, where I ask about folks wanting to keep the leaders when they knew what was happening, infers another comparison... I just didn't flat out say it. The comparison was that leaders knew what was going on and did nothing... or if they did something and it didn't work, stayed around anyway... in my mind this makes them complicit as well...
I'm only referring to the 'prophetic council' stuff... that there are other big problems has been brought up as well, I don't know about them...
I don't 'rejoice' in any of this. I don't think that anyone here really does... as all of us have been through something similar before. I understand that a lot of folks here are finding out these things, or the depth of these things, for the first time and are shocked and heartbroken and have a natural impulse to defend, what in their hearts and minds, are good people and a good ministry... wasn't that also a lot of folks first reaction when in TWI? It/they may have been... I think it's starting to unfold here what it/they are now...
As you folks from CES/STFI that are new here come to "see what's going on" please make sure you read:
Post #172 on page 9 (by Socks), this post offers some excellent advice
Post #190 on page 10 (by Mark Sanguinetti), this post shows (in detail) how this 'prophecy' business being wrong was brought before the CES/STFI leaders in 2000
Sorry for the long post.
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pond
Iemailed Mark G early yesterday, and he replyed he did not know about it , they are not lovers of grease spot and shun this site, JL has asked the posters here to "get a life" .
not that im a stellar member or trying to be, my point is they will not respond here. after metioning this thread Mark has now blocked my email address.
I was not rude i just asked him to respond to the questioned raised here.
I have no intention of posting what he wrote me, it was not anything really but more of I do not know what is going on and elizabeth should be discounted.
I see alot of what Galen said as truth, and the problem with trying to control ther people is bottom line it just doesnt work, and that is a most difficult lesson in life, and when your own children as Galen said can not experience lifebecause of "love" of the parents, where does that leave the Lord in life other than the parents trying to be in that position?
Jesus christ is real and I have learned that He is the Saviour of mankind so deeply it even implies to those I love the most.
I no longer try to be God to my kids they are grown and have a Lord as much as I do.
problem is parents are so accustom to being the one who has the say and control in children, and often build an idol within the family about control and they think should be in line for life for them and then.. it gets out of perspective BEcause the Lord doesnt like it. it isnt loving somone it is controling people and playing God . it erases His job.
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therebutforgrace
The tapes Tom shows have been out in the open for years.
What has not been 'out in the open for years' is the plethora of day-to-day 'prophecies' served up to leadership and followers alike, especially those who chose to dissent on some matter. Those who dissent have been (and in my experience up to this month) are still being handled just as Belle so well outlined. If they 'stay down' all looks peaceful again. If they do not, they get another 'word,' another round of 'counseling' with leadership, or more 'loving' phone calls. And if that does not keep them down, they must be discredited before they talk to you and 'take you out'. (All under the guise of protecting the sheep of course.)
What has not been 'out in the open for years' is the torment people have been put through, the many ungodly incidents people have detailed to CES Board members, the dismissals such as "you're the only one who has brought this up," 'your perspective is skewed," "I didn't finish reading your letter because I've heard it all before," the attacks such as "you are utterly incapable of handling honest communication and love," "you don't have the heart or skills to ___", and the grease-spot-type threats, "you don't want to fight against what God is fighting for."
What has not been 'out in the open for years' is the day-to-day 'advice' full of psychological mumbo-jumbo (sold as--and probably believed to be--Christian) used to accuse many people of 'needing psychiatric help', used to counsel many couples who are now divorced, and used to literally tell people to get a divorce because it will 'help wake up' their errant spouse.
This sin and more needs to be brought into the open, not so people can count these brothers and sisters as enemies, but so people can admonish them as brothers and make a decision to pray for them (who else will?), and also can choose whom they will follow/support, not just regarding this tiny thing called CES but in all of life.
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TrustAndObey
Interesting to see that at least something might be done in CES. I'm glad for that.. It's a man made ministry, so I really could care less whether the "ministry" stands or falls. Because God is still God. Jesus is still our Lord. And we still have life! And the true church will still stand. The word ministry in the Bible is the word for serving. Not a "Bible club" which to me is all TWI and CES and the majority of churches / ministries have become. Just because they know Jesus, even personally, doesn't mean they follow Him. And if they follow Him, they won't be following man or a man made ministry. The body of Christ is to be made up of active members following Christ (serving). And it ain't for serving Koolaid!
When I first left TWI, I went to a CES fellowship. And I saw this problem first hand.. First it was with the Personal prophecies.. I remember they were trying to discuss for their next upcoming event how to make it avialable so everyone could get their personal "prophecy"(aka reading) done by Karen and one other person.. Of course they go to the scriptures in Corithians 14 about prophecy, but give me a break, everyone all of a sudden needs their palm read on what God wants them to do? What is the point? I don't recall Elijah going to a town and having everyone lined up so he could give them their own personal word of the Lord. And then they tried to teach everyone how to give a personal prophecy. Oh, don't worry if you mess up the first couple tries, it's a learned thing. Umm, yeah, much like Speaking in tongues with interpretation in TWI. I let one of their big wigs give me a personal prophecy only for them to be so far in left field I didn't know where they pulled it out of the hat. (And this was one of their experienced teachers of personal prophecy!) I told him so too, and he just chalked it up to a mistake.. A mistake?! That's man for you and man's ministry. (Ok women too).
Course for any in CES, the latest Sower ought to tell you what Mark thinks about leadership. Just as much as the latest Way Mag gives you enough idea what their top leaders think of believing for miracles instead of trusting God. In the latest Sower about leadership, Mark likened it all to how much "influence" one has on others. And the highest leader is nothing more than the one who influences the most. And his idea of 360 leadership is that you were influenced by a leader (Namely the top dog, Him!) and now you influence others thus becoming a leader. So it's all about how much "influence" you can have on others. That's leadership?! GIve me a break! That's not leadership, that just trying to see how much koolaid you can get people to drink! And he sure has got a good group of CESers drinking the personal prophecy koolaid and thinking his wife is such a great artist, selling her prophetically produced portraits at their events.
No different than TWI. They sell koolaid and call it God's Word. I'm not speaking about the individuals, but the man-made ministry as a whole. I have no doubt Scheinheit and Lynn love GOd. But CES is in the same boat TWI is. They lift the teaching of God's Word above everything in the ministry, thus sayeth the Lord, only it really is thus sayeth Mark or John or Rosalie or LCM.
When will people wake up. The harvest is great. It's time to be working. Not making our own man-made groups with men at the helm leading it (having influence over others) and trying to see how he can keep leading it. Let him who wishes to be greatest among you be your SERVANT. Jesus never taught that it's for us to be serving the leaders. It's the other way around! You want to lead, then get out there and work. That's how you lead. Whether or not people follow and drink your koolaid. And even if they are influenced by your work, your not their leader, Christ is. So if any man is trying to "lead" people, they aren't following Christ, they are following their man made visions. Love, give, share, help, bless, care for, admonish, lift up, encourage, and teach all for the purpose of pointing them in the right direction to follow Christ, NOT YOU! If God wanted people made in your image, he would have done it. And that's all man made leaders do, is try and influence people to their image of what you should be. Christ is our head. Not man!
Matthew 23:1-12 "Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe,that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
One is your teacher.. ANd it ain't Mark, John, Rosalie, LCM, your pastor, or anyone else. They may be great in influencing you, but the point is to get busy in following Christ, not the man who influenced you, who should have influenced you to follow Christ, not himself.
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krys
Thank you TrustAndObey! I appreciate your point of view. In my heart of hearts, I believe this is the closest thing to God's heart written here on this thread.
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Linda Z
Hear, hear, Trust&Obey. I second Krys's opinion.
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Tom Strange
Yes, a good post T&O, I think you summed it up very well...
I also think the reason a lot of folks are posting on this thread is to try and help others... and I think that's God's heart as well...
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outofdafog
Excellent post Trust/Obey
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Sunesis
Am I the only one who almost got physically nauseaus reading Elizabeth's letter?
The demonic accusations this woman has had to endure under the guise of "prophecy." The - ok, I'll say it, though I hate to - the "devlishness" of the prophetic council - truly, satan's ministers have been working overtime masquerading as ministers of light.
The hate, creulty and condemnation they have driven into this woman's life to the point of contemplating ending it - this is not of God.
I don't care how "strong" JAL is in the "word" - anyone can memorize verses and chapters, but to allow anyone to gossip and accuse one's wife like that is disgusting and shameful in my book.
The sad thing is, I used to be great friends with KA - she did some loving wonderful things for me in residence. As of this point, she is not God's instrument.
Did not anyone else get sick readings these prophecies that sound like they came from the pit of hell?
The hatred and animosity towards this woman Elizabeth.
Sure, it takes two to tango, but no one deserves what has been heaped upon her by the Accuser.
May she wipe the dust off her feet and move on, and may these people have their eyes enlightened and fall on their knees and beg God forgiveness for the shame, hurt and evil they have done.
Lest he say... Depart from me, I never knew you.
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