Is it just me or is there something a tad fishy about the Prez having the high poo-bah Prophetess as his wife???How convenient, as the church lady might have said....
In fact, a visit from the church lady might just straighten this mess out....
Of course the wife-prophetess is going to back the Prez-husband...no lack of objectivity there, that's for sure....
I thought the Jesus they all revere declared the seeking of signs to be a MAJOR no-no?? Or was dat some otha Jesus???
I think there are significant differences between TWI and CES/STF or Craig and John Lynn. Are they perfect no, But have you ever heard anything good about Craig Martindale? His jokes weren't even good.
And TWI had an agenda of greed for a long time before Schoenheit accidently blew the doors off with a simple word study on adultery. CES has had good roots. Sure they started out trying to keep the good from TWI, but they did grow past that, as we each did. I notice I haven't heard the phrase "Way Brain" in a long time. We all have grown.
I have seen some awesome teachings from Schoenheit and because I have had personal contact with him, I am sure his humility is not an act. Likewise I have been sure of John Lynn's motives in the past. John Lynn and John Schoenheit founded CES, Graeser was grafted in later, if I remember correctly. Then his wife wanted more input. Then they got their kids on the bandwagon and poof, they are in control. Hmm. Little by little, inch by inch John Lynn lost CES.
Most ministries/churches put out a good spin as much as they can. I believe all of them have baggage and skeletons because they are made up of people. How CES/STF Board members handle this mess will determine their reputation for me. If they rise to the occasion, I won't lump them with others dead to me now because of broken promises. Because those that would consider themselves leaders have an implied promise to those they claim to serve.
Why Jeff do you feel compelled to put this out for grease spot now?
Is it because a friend got hurt and now you want revenge? or because after YEARS fo being silently if not happily involved in participating in the same stuff you now have guilt about being involved in the personal prophecy stuff?
1 and 2 Timothy clearly spell out the characteristics of godly leaders. If you read those books, talk them over with the Lord, refuse to go by assumptions or someone else's word, and determine that someone meets the qualities well enough to warrant your support, you will have no problem standing before the Lord one day having made that decision.
By doing that myself, I discontinued supporting CES leaders years ago. In brief, 2 Tim 2:23 says...."foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves."
In my own encounters with CES leaders, at any turn when I did not agree with their opinion/decision/plan, strife was a hallmark, while gentleness, patience and meekness were not. Much worse than strife was generated to me, my family and my friends, but if only that were true, it was enough to disqualify them from my understanding of God's requirements for 'church leaders'.
That does not make them less worthy of Christ's shed blood (none of us are worthy or He would not have needed to shed it), but it does disqualify them from being my pastors and their organization from being my church or receiving $1 of the money God has given me to steward.
In addition, because I have loved some of them for decades, it seriously qualifies them for my fervent, daily prayer that they wake up.
Their 'deliverance' from deception will be evidenced, not by whom they change but by how they change. Not in whom they hire or fire, but in whom they themselves become. And that will begin to be evidenced in private and public repentance for private and public sin.
I think there are significant differences between TWI and CES/STF or Craig and John Lynn. Are they perfect no
yet they expect perfection in their disciples
But have you ever heard anything good about Craig Martindale? His jokes weren't even good.
John's jokes were good so that made him a better leader?
And TWI had an agenda of greed for a long time before Schoenheit accidently blew the doors off with a simple word study on adultery. CES has had good roots. Sure they started out trying to keep the good from TWI, but they did grow past that, as we each did.
So this gives them a pass to tear this woman's life (Elizabeth) and her heart apart?
I notice I haven't heard the phrase "Way Brain" in a long time. We all have grown.
Perhaps now it is CES brain.
I have seen some awesome teachings from Schoenheit and because I have had personal contact with him, I am sure his humility is not an act.
I have heard teachings that I thought were awesome from Loy and have had some personal contact with him and he sure seemed humble to me.
Likewise I have been sure of John Lynn's motives in the past.
As sure as you were of the motives of the BOD in TWI, you must have been at one time or you wouldn't have stayed.
John Lynn and John Schoenheit founded CES, Graeser was grafted in later, if I remember correctly. Then his wife wanted more input. Then they got their kids on the bandwagon and poof, they are in control. Hmm. Little by little, inch by inch John Lynn lost CES.
I think that is what Elizabeth tried to say in her letter to him.
Most ministries/churches put out a good spin as much as they can. I believe all of them have baggage and skeletons because they are made up of people. How CES/STF Board members handle this mess will determine their reputation for me. If they rise to the occasion, I won't lump them with others dead to me now because of broken promises. Because those that would consider themselves leaders have an implied promise to those they claim to serve.
Just as TWI leaders had an implied promise to those they claim to serve.
But a "council on prophesy"?!! Gimme a break. Isn't there already more than enough prophesy in the scripture than anyone could possibly hope for that enlightens us on how to live a good and Godly life?
My Mom always taught us kids (and later taught her twig) that God loves you for who you are,right here and now. Don't need a bunch of prophesy or in depth research to understand that. Just need to accept it and make it part of daily life by loving one another.
I guess you have not followed my posts. What they have done to Elizabeth was the last straw for me.
I am sure from outside they (CES and TWI) look the same. Of course there are similarities. All churches, made up of people, will have some. I am saying, as someone who has been involved with CES for a long time, that there is still value worth fighting for there.
It remains to be seen how CES/STF will respond to this and other reproof. I am still hoping for the best from the Theisens, Dan Gallagher, John Schoenheit and John Lynn.
Foggie, you took the words right out of my mouth. EXCELLENT POST!!!
Sorry, Chrispy, I think that you sound exactly like people who claim the same things about TWI and various and sundry TWIt leaders, but any way you slice it, God does not appear to be at the center of that organization and the leaders you revere and work so hard to defend allowed it to become what it has become. :(
Birds of a feather...
A little leaven....
Be ye not unequally yoked...
The qualifications for a leader....
Nobody is blameless and beyond reproach when it comes to those who have chosen (not necessarily BEEN CHOSEN) to shepherd and protect God's kids. I count none of those leaders blameless. They allowed this to happen. AND, if they stood up like they should have, what would have happened? Would they have lost their paycheck and the ministry they tried to build? Was that more important to them? Seeing as how much leaven, abuse and sheer b.s. is going on at the top of the food chain, it's rather difficult to see any differences between CES and TWI other than their prophecy crap is out in a different far left field than TWI's b.s. doctrines and practices. *shrug*
These things have been going on for years...this is nothing new...it's just finally reaching this medium...and finally enough people have been hurt and are being heard...They need prayer, but we really need to pray for the victims...there are many. The truth will come out.
Cool Waters. It seems to me that you have concluded that CES has ignored Jesus. I don't know where you got your information, But I had a long conversation with JAL when he was still running the organization, and he spoke of Jesus all of the time. And he made a point of telling me that The Way Ministry essentially ignored the life of Jesus Christ, and that we should not. He then went on a long description about how if Jesus is seated at the right hand of God, ever making intercession for us, then maybe we should take some time to talk to him, and thank him for what he'd done. All those years in The Way, and we ignored Jesus...."
And so, it seems to me that JAL had something (if not alot) to do with Jesus in his days back when he talked to me. And didn't JAL start CES? It's my thinking that he did...
And so Jeff and Richncrispy, what do you know of CES and our Lord Jesus Christ? Do/did they teach about our Lord?
There is only one biblical standard of determining what Jesus means to people...and Jesus Himself set the standard: THE FRUIT.
The CES/STFFI tree is bearing bad fruit...
Jesus says a tree cannot bear both good and bad fruit.
This is Christianity 101...the survey course...what's so hard about it?
Oh yeah...
It's the course twi et al hacked to pieces and relegated to the 'archives' of possibly good for knowledge but nothing else.
Pawtucket asked me about the origins of CES and personal prophecy. Here is a letter that I wrote to the 3 CES leaders in Novemeber of 2000. Jeff, if you are out there you would especially benefit by reading this.
Dear John Schoenheit, John Lynn and Mark Graeser:
In an E-mail dated October 25, John Schoenheit asked me the following: “I am unclear about exactly what doctrines you think we teach in error. Please let me know.” In response to this I have written the following to all three of the CES brethren. This was originally E-Mailed to John Schoenheit on November 1, 2000.
The root cause of all doctrinal error by CES on the subject of prophecy, as I see it, is the unbiblical reasoning stemming from the phrase “eat the fish and throw away the bones” and all reasoning related to this. The context of this statement is that which was learned from and grafted into CES doctrine by Christian International out of Florida. In fact, these are the very words of their president Bill Hamon, and this phrase has been used by CES people. First of all, you and I both know that this is an unbiblical phrase. Instead I want you to be aware of the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 7:15-23.
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
New International Version
If these words are good enough for Jesus Christ to have taught his disciples when he was training and teaching them in preparation for the age of grace and receiving of the holy spirit, then why wouldn’t they be good enough for you and I? I want to especially bring your attention to the phrase, “by their fruit you will recognize them.” The bible says in Galations 5:22-23 that there are nine fruits of the spirit.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
King James Version
Since Bill Hamon, by his own words, claims to be a prophet and a trainer of aspiring prophets let’s look at the fruit of some prophets in the bible for comparison. Moses happens to be my favorite prophet in the bible, other than Jesus Christ of course, and the prophet that most people are familiar with the life of.
Num 12:3
3Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.
King James Version
Num 12:3
Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.
New International Version
Moses was not a great speaker. In fact, he had his own brother, Aaron speak for him often. The one and only quality that I know of, that separated Moses from every other man on the face of the earth was his meekness and humility. For a prophet the fruit of meekness and the heart felt attitude of humility is especially important. The reason is obvious. He has to be especially meek with God to be able to receive his Word. If he is not he could fall into all kinds of doctrinal error, unbelief and even idolatry and worship of false gods.
Jesus Christ was also known for his meekness and was especially compassionate with people.
Matt 11:29
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I (Christ) am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
The principle of meekness for receiving God’s Word is very clear for all believers regardless of their function in the body of Christ.
James 1:21
21Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
King James Version
James 3:13-18
13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.
New International Version
The above is the kind of knowledge that we should seek, and not any knowledge which is even border line puffed up or full of conceit. Didn’t we get enough of this kind of knowledge in our years in the Way Ministry where we were always bragging that our knowledge of the bible was better than everyone else and hence our ministry was better also? Didn’t this kind of pride lead to its downfall?
Prov 11:2 continues,
2When pride comes, then comes disgrace,
but with humility comes wisdom.
New International Version
Ps 25:9
9The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
King James Version
1 Peter 5:5-6
5Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
6Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
King James Version
Clearly, if we want to receive anything from God, especially His Word, we must be meek and humble for “God resisteth the proud.” This is especially true for someone who claims to be a prophet. Now I want you to look at some of the words of Bill Hamon, the man who claims to be a prophet. By your own words, this is the man from whom you are getting some of your material on prophecy as he is the president of Christian International. I ask you, are his words below the words of a man of meekness and humility or the words of someone with puffed up reasoning? Are these the words of a prophet of God or the words of a false prophet? Below are just a few samples.
Hamon explains on pages 59 and 60 of his book, “Prophets and the Prophetic Movement.”
The Prophetic movement is part of the Holy Spirit’s continuing work of bringing the Church to full restoration. The restoration of Christ’s ascension gift of a prophet is absolutely essential for God’s purpose in the Church to be accomplished.
The company of prophets will help restore the apostles back into their rightful place in the Church. The full restoration of apostles and prophets back into the Church will then bring divine order, unity, purity and maturity to the corporate Body of Christ. The saints will be equipped and activated in the supernatural power of God to be a witness and demonstration to all nations of the powerful kingdom of God. That will in turn bring about the end of this world system of humanity and Satan’s rule.
The fulfillment of all these will release Christ, who has been seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven, to return literally and set up His everlasting Kingdom over all the earth. As the prophet Daniel foretold, the stone (the Church) that was hewn out of the mountain (Christ) will continue to grow in strength and momentum like the snowball rolling down the mountain, until it hits the feet of the giant world empires, causing them to crumble and come into submission to Christ.
The above Hamon doctrine does not magnify, nor hold to, the head of the body, which is Christ and is even worse than the old Way teaching that we take the place of the absent Christ by the renewing of our minds. It implies that the Lord Jesus Christ won’t return for or gather his Church without the works and dominion of the Church, and that somehow the Church must release Christ from heaven. How arrogant and utterly false.
In his book Prophets and the Prophetic Movement, page 57 Hamon says,
In the wilderness journey the people were covered and protected by a cloud by day and warmed, enlightened and directed by a fire by night. But for the Prophetic Movement in Canaan, the Apostle is the covering and protecting cloud and the Prophet is the enlightening and directing fire. That is one reason why apostles and prophets must be restored before the Church can fulfill its predestinated end-time purpose on earth.
Also written in his book Prophets and the Prophetic Movement, page 7 it says on Oct. 1, 1953, Bill Hamon received these words of personal prophecy concerning his ministry:
“Yea, is not this the day that thou shalt go forth in His might and His Power? Have I not said in My Word Concerning My own children, “Ye are gods,” and yea in these last days ye shall go forth as gods? Thou shalt go forth as gods with power in thine hands, and minister life and faith unto those that are desolate. Yea, I say unto thee, thou shalt be a leader of leaders. Yea, thou shalt see multitudes running unto thee, for as a light upon a tall hill shalt thou be. Yea, fear shall be in the hearts of those round about thee, yet thou shalt stand as one full of courage, saith the Lord.”
No mention is made by Hamon that God was speaking derogatorily to the judges of Israel when he said “ye are gods.” Furthermore, He did not subsequently bless them with power in their hands.” In context Psalms 82:5-7 reads,
5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
King James Version
The only other usage of “ye are gods” in the old testament is Isaiah 41:23. In context, Isaiah 41:21-24 reads,
21Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. 22Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.
23Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
24Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.
King James Version
Regarding these scriptures, from the Wycliffe bible commentary it reads,
Turning now to idol-worshiping Gentiles, Jehovah challenges them to prove the reality and power of their idols by the test of prophecy and fulfillment (v. 22). His people charge these false gods with being utterly unable to fore-announce their will and purpose, through their prophets, and then carry it out.
Whoever spoke this prophecy of Bill Hamon’s early ministry above, spoke it like an in the flesh false prophet of biblical proportions. This is not something to be proud of to say the least. Neither would you expect the recipient of such a prophecy to “go forth” with anything but arrogance and false pride.
The worst part of Hamon’s teachings, however, may be his excuses for false prophecies. I understand he has over 600 pages consisting of over 150,000 words of personal prophecy concerning himself that he has collected over the years. With so much prophecy, I can understand why he needs to make excuses for inaccurate errant ones. If his original prophecy above was contrary to the Word of God, why should subsequent prophecies be any better? With so much error in doctrine and prophecies, why should you learn from him, his subordinates or associates? Couldn’t you learn from better sources or work the Word of God for yourself?
From Hamon’s book Prophets and Personal Prophecy page 158 it reads,
At the time, we must not be quick to call someone a false prophet simply because something he said was inaccurate or did not seem to apply to us. The man may be honest, righteous, and upright, yet immature in his prophesying. He may have misinterpreted what the Lord was saying.
In this case we should say that he gave an inaccurate word or a false prophecy, but we cannot properly call him a false prophet unless we can prove that the man himself is false. Missing it a few times in prophecy does not make a false prophet. No mortal prophet is infallible; all are liable to make mistakes.
Where is this in the bible? How does this compare to Deuteronomy 18:18-22?
18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" 22If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
New International Version
You asked me what doctrines do I think CES has been teaching in error. Like Bill Hamon, have you been teaching that prophecy isn't always 100 percent accurate? What about in the bible when a prophet of God says “thus says the Lord”, “thus says the Holy Spirit”, or “this is what the Lord says.” Are they speaking falsely or truly?
For what it's worh, Belle. You take on Crispy, you get me. She has totally risked herself by saying what she thinks along with alot of other people involved, who have something to risk here. It's really easy for people who have no relationships, or nothing at stake to say what they think. It isn't the case for some of us. Please respect that.
There is only one biblical standard of determining what Jesus means to people...and Jesus Himself set the standard: THE FRUIT.
The CES/STFFI tree is bearing bad fruit...
Jesus says a tree cannot bear both good and bad fruit.
bah humbug, CW, I DO hope you are not callling those who have enjoyed and learned good stuff from those who minister under the CES/STF banner bad fruit? Say what you want, but I have seen good fruit from this ministry, so would this mean then that there can't be "bad fruit"? It would seem so from your narrow interpretation of a single verse.
FWIIW, I have often heard those who have contact with STF speak in loving ways of having a relationship with Jesus, unlike when they were involved with TWI. CW, you speak wrongly on this subject as it pertains to many of the people who receive some of their information from STF.
For others, it seems "tis the season to rejoice" in the troubles of someone else, because they are not your troubles, perhaps. 10 pages on this thread already? Is "THE's" longstanding record at risk? nah, a month ago most here could not have cared less about CES or STF. this too will pass, probably after the "spiritual" holiday.
If we aren't careful this can become a case of "rejoicing in iniquity."
Not accusing anyone of it yet - but this thread does have a circus-like quality to it. No disrespect meant - but when people's pains and lives are paraded in front of a crowd - well.... it's just a freak show.
I'm not saying that there isn't a place for this discussion - but motive would seem to be a real factor.
Reality check (for me first) : What are "we" hoping to accomplish here? I mean, when I first left the Roman Catholic Church, I didn't keep tabs on what was going on there or in Rome. Neither did I do that when I left TWI. Now I find myself checking this thread regularly - and I was never even involved with CES - tho I do have some dear friends that are.
This is a sad time for the body of Christ - do we really want to say our "I told you so's" and " it figures"? Some folks got royally screwed here! I dont' care who they are or what they've done - people are important. And yes, I know that I have participated in the thread and made some sly remarks. Now I'm just praying that these folks get healed.
bah humbug, CW, I DO hope you are not callling those who have enjoyed and learned good stuff from those who minister under the CES/STF banner bad fruit? Say what you want, but I have seen good fruit from this ministry, so would this mean then that there can't be "bad fruit"? It would seem so from your narrow interpretation of a single verse.
FWIIW, I have often heard those who have contact with STF speak in loving ways of having a relationship with Jesus, unlike when they were involved with TWI. CW, you speak wrongly on this subject as it pertains to many of the people who receive some of their information from STF.
For others, it seems "tis the season to rejoice" in the troubles of someone else, because they are not your troubles, perhaps. 10 pages on this thread already? Is "THE's" longstanding record at risk? nah, a month ago most here could not have cared less about CES or STF. this too will pass, probably after the "spiritual" holiday.
HAP
No, Hap, I'm not. I am calling what the organization is producing bad fruit.
For me there is no doubt whatsover that CES was NOT originated at the hearkening of the Lord, but as a kneejerk reaction by a bunch of folks who were used to having power and authority in an organization and simply did not know what to do with themselves without power and position in an organization.
You may have seen good fruit in people's lives who were involved in the organization, but there's not one shred of evidence that the organization has anything but bad fruit.
This is where people got screwed up in twi...
Confusing the organization with people's walks.
It is this confusion that keeps people bound into the error of twi...
People go running around looking for the organizational stuff...
The twigs, the ROA, the teachings, etc.
Of course, this is all my opinion...which is pretty much worth nothing to anybody but myself...and the value to myself is minimal. It's just something I don't get...why rebuild babylon?
correct CW your analysis that there is not a shred of evidence of good fruit is your opinion. Thank you for that explanation..
An organization CAN be an assist to individuals seeking growth and truth. That same Jesus you alluded to as setting the standard himself formed an organization of 12 apostles. I missed the new bible that must have come out after our TWI experience where God forbade organizations and instructed us to be islands unto Him.
correct CW your analysis that there is not a shred of evidence of good fruit is your opinion. Thank you for that explanation..
An organization CAN be an assist to individuals seeking growth and truth. That same Jesus you alluded to as setting the standard himself formed an organization of 12 apostles. I missed the new bible that must have come out after our TWI experience where God forbade organizations and instructed us to be islands unto Him.
~HAP
You're being funny, right? Or do you think I'm too stupid to grasp that there can be fruitful organizations?
Dooj -- I (for one) won't beat you.
Yea -- I am saddened by those who have never had anything to do with CES,
making comments detrimental to the heart of those who started it.
If you've never heard BB King play, but are a fan of the blues --
(please) don't offer a commentary on his rendition thereof.
Same thing -- you know not whereof you speak.
I for one am glad this came out in the open, as I had no idea about it.
And yes -- I can do without all the *snide* comments about CES,
and the cheap comparisions made to twi.
I've got a long, long history with JAL...from waaaaaaaaaaaaay back when he was NY limb leader....even did the only actual extwi interview of JAL when CES was very young...and CES was the first place I turned when I found out there were twi splinter groups. I have friends whose lives were nearly ruined by CES and/or CES 'affiliate fellowships'. I have personal, long-term, up close experience with CES 'ministers'.
ok CW, I guess I misunderstood you. No I never thought you were stupid, I DID think you were saying people are too stupid that they think they wish an organization. No I was not being funny, I was disputing what I understood as your premise.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
32
31
40
40
Popular Days
Dec 18
91
Dec 21
90
Dec 20
86
Dec 19
85
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 32 posts
Tom Strange 31 posts
dmiller 40 posts
therebutforgrace 40 posts
Popular Days
Dec 18 2006
91 posts
Dec 21 2006
90 posts
Dec 20 2006
86 posts
Dec 19 2006
85 posts
Popular Posts
notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
Sushi
I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
Whatsgoingon
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
Posted Images
alfakat
Is it just me or is there something a tad fishy about the Prez having the high poo-bah Prophetess as his wife???How convenient, as the church lady might have said....
In fact, a visit from the church lady might just straighten this mess out....
Of course the wife-prophetess is going to back the Prez-husband...no lack of objectivity there, that's for sure....
I thought the Jesus they all revere declared the seeking of signs to be a MAJOR no-no?? Or was dat some otha Jesus???
Link to comment
Share on other sites
richnchrispy
This is Chrispy again!
I think there are significant differences between TWI and CES/STF or Craig and John Lynn. Are they perfect no, But have you ever heard anything good about Craig Martindale? His jokes weren't even good.
And TWI had an agenda of greed for a long time before Schoenheit accidently blew the doors off with a simple word study on adultery. CES has had good roots. Sure they started out trying to keep the good from TWI, but they did grow past that, as we each did. I notice I haven't heard the phrase "Way Brain" in a long time. We all have grown.
I have seen some awesome teachings from Schoenheit and because I have had personal contact with him, I am sure his humility is not an act. Likewise I have been sure of John Lynn's motives in the past. John Lynn and John Schoenheit founded CES, Graeser was grafted in later, if I remember correctly. Then his wife wanted more input. Then they got their kids on the bandwagon and poof, they are in control. Hmm. Little by little, inch by inch John Lynn lost CES.
Most ministries/churches put out a good spin as much as they can. I believe all of them have baggage and skeletons because they are made up of people. How CES/STF Board members handle this mess will determine their reputation for me. If they rise to the occasion, I won't lump them with others dead to me now because of broken promises. Because those that would consider themselves leaders have an implied promise to those they claim to serve.
Regards,
Chrispy
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
Why Jeff do you feel compelled to put this out for grease spot now?
Is it because a friend got hurt and now you want revenge? or because after YEARS fo being silently if not happily involved in participating in the same stuff you now have guilt about being involved in the personal prophecy stuff?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
therebutforgrace
1 and 2 Timothy clearly spell out the characteristics of godly leaders. If you read those books, talk them over with the Lord, refuse to go by assumptions or someone else's word, and determine that someone meets the qualities well enough to warrant your support, you will have no problem standing before the Lord one day having made that decision.
By doing that myself, I discontinued supporting CES leaders years ago. In brief, 2 Tim 2:23 says...."foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves."
In my own encounters with CES leaders, at any turn when I did not agree with their opinion/decision/plan, strife was a hallmark, while gentleness, patience and meekness were not. Much worse than strife was generated to me, my family and my friends, but if only that were true, it was enough to disqualify them from my understanding of God's requirements for 'church leaders'.
That does not make them less worthy of Christ's shed blood (none of us are worthy or He would not have needed to shed it), but it does disqualify them from being my pastors and their organization from being my church or receiving $1 of the money God has given me to steward.
In addition, because I have loved some of them for decades, it seriously qualifies them for my fervent, daily prayer that they wake up.
Their 'deliverance' from deception will be evidenced, not by whom they change but by how they change. Not in whom they hire or fire, but in whom they themselves become. And that will begin to be evidenced in private and public repentance for private and public sin.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
outofdafog
I think there are significant differences between TWI and CES/STF or Craig and John Lynn. Are they perfect no
yet they expect perfection in their disciples
But have you ever heard anything good about Craig Martindale? His jokes weren't even good.
John's jokes were good so that made him a better leader?
And TWI had an agenda of greed for a long time before Schoenheit accidently blew the doors off with a simple word study on adultery. CES has had good roots. Sure they started out trying to keep the good from TWI, but they did grow past that, as we each did.
So this gives them a pass to tear this woman's life (Elizabeth) and her heart apart?
I notice I haven't heard the phrase "Way Brain" in a long time. We all have grown.
Perhaps now it is CES brain.
I have seen some awesome teachings from Schoenheit and because I have had personal contact with him, I am sure his humility is not an act.
I have heard teachings that I thought were awesome from Loy and have had some personal contact with him and he sure seemed humble to me.
Likewise I have been sure of John Lynn's motives in the past.
As sure as you were of the motives of the BOD in TWI, you must have been at one time or you wouldn't have stayed.
John Lynn and John Schoenheit founded CES, Graeser was grafted in later, if I remember correctly. Then his wife wanted more input. Then they got their kids on the bandwagon and poof, they are in control. Hmm. Little by little, inch by inch John Lynn lost CES.
I think that is what Elizabeth tried to say in her letter to him.
Most ministries/churches put out a good spin as much as they can. I believe all of them have baggage and skeletons because they are made up of people. How CES/STF Board members handle this mess will determine their reputation for me. If they rise to the occasion, I won't lump them with others dead to me now because of broken promises. Because those that would consider themselves leaders have an implied promise to those they claim to serve.
Just as TWI leaders had an implied promise to those they claim to serve.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Never been part of CES.
Have no desire to be.
But a "council on prophesy"?!! Gimme a break. Isn't there already more than enough prophesy in the scripture than anyone could possibly hope for that enlightens us on how to live a good and Godly life?
My Mom always taught us kids (and later taught her twig) that God loves you for who you are,right here and now. Don't need a bunch of prophesy or in depth research to understand that. Just need to accept it and make it part of daily life by loving one another.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
richnchrispy
OODF-
I guess you have not followed my posts. What they have done to Elizabeth was the last straw for me.
I am sure from outside they (CES and TWI) look the same. Of course there are similarities. All churches, made up of people, will have some. I am saying, as someone who has been involved with CES for a long time, that there is still value worth fighting for there.
It remains to be seen how CES/STF will respond to this and other reproof. I am still hoping for the best from the Theisens, Dan Gallagher, John Schoenheit and John Lynn.
Regards,
Chrispy
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Galen
Oh my goodness.
What a mess.
wow.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Foggie, you took the words right out of my mouth.
EXCELLENT POST!!!
Sorry, Chrispy, I think that you sound exactly like people who claim the same things about TWI and various and sundry TWIt leaders, but any way you slice it, God does not appear to be at the center of that organization and the leaders you revere and work so hard to defend allowed it to become what it has become. :(
Birds of a feather...
A little leaven....
Be ye not unequally yoked...
The qualifications for a leader....
Nobody is blameless and beyond reproach when it comes to those who have chosen (not necessarily BEEN CHOSEN) to shepherd and protect God's kids. I count none of those leaders blameless. They allowed this to happen. AND, if they stood up like they should have, what would have happened? Would they have lost their paycheck and the ministry they tried to build? Was that more important to them? Seeing as how much leaven, abuse and sheer b.s. is going on at the top of the food chain, it's rather difficult to see any differences between CES and TWI other than their prophecy crap is out in a different far left field than TWI's b.s. doctrines and practices. *shrug*
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Unless you are an atheist, this might be a good time to pray for all involved.
I will do so now.
Good night all, take care, and remember who is in contol over all.
Edited by dmillerLink to comment
Share on other sites
onefinecustom
These things have been going on for years...this is nothing new...it's just finally reaching this medium...and finally enough people have been hurt and are being heard...They need prayer, but we really need to pray for the victims...there are many. The truth will come out.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Thank you, onefinecustom. And welcome to Greasespot.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
There is only one biblical standard of determining what Jesus means to people...and Jesus Himself set the standard: THE FRUIT.
The CES/STFFI tree is bearing bad fruit...
Jesus says a tree cannot bear both good and bad fruit.
This is Christianity 101...the survey course...what's so hard about it?
Oh yeah...
It's the course twi et al hacked to pieces and relegated to the 'archives' of possibly good for knowledge but nothing else.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Pawtucket asked me about the origins of CES and personal prophecy. Here is a letter that I wrote to the 3 CES leaders in Novemeber of 2000. Jeff, if you are out there you would especially benefit by reading this.
Dear John Schoenheit, John Lynn and Mark Graeser:
In an E-mail dated October 25, John Schoenheit asked me the following: “I am unclear about exactly what doctrines you think we teach in error. Please let me know.” In response to this I have written the following to all three of the CES brethren. This was originally E-Mailed to John Schoenheit on November 1, 2000.
The root cause of all doctrinal error by CES on the subject of prophecy, as I see it, is the unbiblical reasoning stemming from the phrase “eat the fish and throw away the bones” and all reasoning related to this. The context of this statement is that which was learned from and grafted into CES doctrine by Christian International out of Florida. In fact, these are the very words of their president Bill Hamon, and this phrase has been used by CES people. First of all, you and I both know that this is an unbiblical phrase. Instead I want you to be aware of the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 7:15-23.
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
New International Version
If these words are good enough for Jesus Christ to have taught his disciples when he was training and teaching them in preparation for the age of grace and receiving of the holy spirit, then why wouldn’t they be good enough for you and I? I want to especially bring your attention to the phrase, “by their fruit you will recognize them.” The bible says in Galations 5:22-23 that there are nine fruits of the spirit.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
King James Version
Since Bill Hamon, by his own words, claims to be a prophet and a trainer of aspiring prophets let’s look at the fruit of some prophets in the bible for comparison. Moses happens to be my favorite prophet in the bible, other than Jesus Christ of course, and the prophet that most people are familiar with the life of.
Num 12:3
3Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.
King James Version
Num 12:3
Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.
New International Version
Moses was not a great speaker. In fact, he had his own brother, Aaron speak for him often. The one and only quality that I know of, that separated Moses from every other man on the face of the earth was his meekness and humility. For a prophet the fruit of meekness and the heart felt attitude of humility is especially important. The reason is obvious. He has to be especially meek with God to be able to receive his Word. If he is not he could fall into all kinds of doctrinal error, unbelief and even idolatry and worship of false gods.
Jesus Christ was also known for his meekness and was especially compassionate with people.
Matt 11:29
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I (Christ) am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
The principle of meekness for receiving God’s Word is very clear for all believers regardless of their function in the body of Christ.
James 1:21
21Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
King James Version
James 3:13-18
13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.
New International Version
The above is the kind of knowledge that we should seek, and not any knowledge which is even border line puffed up or full of conceit. Didn’t we get enough of this kind of knowledge in our years in the Way Ministry where we were always bragging that our knowledge of the bible was better than everyone else and hence our ministry was better also? Didn’t this kind of pride lead to its downfall?
Prov 11:2 continues,
2When pride comes, then comes disgrace,
but with humility comes wisdom.
New International Version
Ps 25:9
9The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
King James Version
1 Peter 5:5-6
5Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
6Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
King James Version
Clearly, if we want to receive anything from God, especially His Word, we must be meek and humble for “God resisteth the proud.” This is especially true for someone who claims to be a prophet. Now I want you to look at some of the words of Bill Hamon, the man who claims to be a prophet. By your own words, this is the man from whom you are getting some of your material on prophecy as he is the president of Christian International. I ask you, are his words below the words of a man of meekness and humility or the words of someone with puffed up reasoning? Are these the words of a prophet of God or the words of a false prophet? Below are just a few samples.
Hamon explains on pages 59 and 60 of his book, “Prophets and the Prophetic Movement.”
The Prophetic movement is part of the Holy Spirit’s continuing work of bringing the Church to full restoration. The restoration of Christ’s ascension gift of a prophet is absolutely essential for God’s purpose in the Church to be accomplished.
The company of prophets will help restore the apostles back into their rightful place in the Church. The full restoration of apostles and prophets back into the Church will then bring divine order, unity, purity and maturity to the corporate Body of Christ. The saints will be equipped and activated in the supernatural power of God to be a witness and demonstration to all nations of the powerful kingdom of God. That will in turn bring about the end of this world system of humanity and Satan’s rule.
The fulfillment of all these will release Christ, who has been seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven, to return literally and set up His everlasting Kingdom over all the earth. As the prophet Daniel foretold, the stone (the Church) that was hewn out of the mountain (Christ) will continue to grow in strength and momentum like the snowball rolling down the mountain, until it hits the feet of the giant world empires, causing them to crumble and come into submission to Christ.
The above Hamon doctrine does not magnify, nor hold to, the head of the body, which is Christ and is even worse than the old Way teaching that we take the place of the absent Christ by the renewing of our minds. It implies that the Lord Jesus Christ won’t return for or gather his Church without the works and dominion of the Church, and that somehow the Church must release Christ from heaven. How arrogant and utterly false.
In his book Prophets and the Prophetic Movement, page 57 Hamon says,
In the wilderness journey the people were covered and protected by a cloud by day and warmed, enlightened and directed by a fire by night. But for the Prophetic Movement in Canaan, the Apostle is the covering and protecting cloud and the Prophet is the enlightening and directing fire. That is one reason why apostles and prophets must be restored before the Church can fulfill its predestinated end-time purpose on earth.
Also written in his book Prophets and the Prophetic Movement, page 7 it says on Oct. 1, 1953, Bill Hamon received these words of personal prophecy concerning his ministry:
“Yea, is not this the day that thou shalt go forth in His might and His Power? Have I not said in My Word Concerning My own children, “Ye are gods,” and yea in these last days ye shall go forth as gods? Thou shalt go forth as gods with power in thine hands, and minister life and faith unto those that are desolate. Yea, I say unto thee, thou shalt be a leader of leaders. Yea, thou shalt see multitudes running unto thee, for as a light upon a tall hill shalt thou be. Yea, fear shall be in the hearts of those round about thee, yet thou shalt stand as one full of courage, saith the Lord.”
No mention is made by Hamon that God was speaking derogatorily to the judges of Israel when he said “ye are gods.” Furthermore, He did not subsequently bless them with power in their hands.” In context Psalms 82:5-7 reads,
5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
King James Version
The only other usage of “ye are gods” in the old testament is Isaiah 41:23. In context, Isaiah 41:21-24 reads,
21Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. 22Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.
23Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
24Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.
King James Version
Regarding these scriptures, from the Wycliffe bible commentary it reads,
Turning now to idol-worshiping Gentiles, Jehovah challenges them to prove the reality and power of their idols by the test of prophecy and fulfillment (v. 22). His people charge these false gods with being utterly unable to fore-announce their will and purpose, through their prophets, and then carry it out.
Whoever spoke this prophecy of Bill Hamon’s early ministry above, spoke it like an in the flesh false prophet of biblical proportions. This is not something to be proud of to say the least. Neither would you expect the recipient of such a prophecy to “go forth” with anything but arrogance and false pride.
The worst part of Hamon’s teachings, however, may be his excuses for false prophecies. I understand he has over 600 pages consisting of over 150,000 words of personal prophecy concerning himself that he has collected over the years. With so much prophecy, I can understand why he needs to make excuses for inaccurate errant ones. If his original prophecy above was contrary to the Word of God, why should subsequent prophecies be any better? With so much error in doctrine and prophecies, why should you learn from him, his subordinates or associates? Couldn’t you learn from better sources or work the Word of God for yourself?
From Hamon’s book Prophets and Personal Prophecy page 158 it reads,
At the time, we must not be quick to call someone a false prophet simply because something he said was inaccurate or did not seem to apply to us. The man may be honest, righteous, and upright, yet immature in his prophesying. He may have misinterpreted what the Lord was saying.
In this case we should say that he gave an inaccurate word or a false prophecy, but we cannot properly call him a false prophet unless we can prove that the man himself is false. Missing it a few times in prophecy does not make a false prophet. No mortal prophet is infallible; all are liable to make mistakes.
Where is this in the bible? How does this compare to Deuteronomy 18:18-22?
18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" 22If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
New International Version
You asked me what doctrines do I think CES has been teaching in error. Like Bill Hamon, have you been teaching that prophecy isn't always 100 percent accurate? What about in the bible when a prophet of God says “thus says the Lord”, “thus says the Holy Spirit”, or “this is what the Lord says.” Are they speaking falsely or truly?
In Christ,
Mark Sanguinetti
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
For what it's worh, Belle. You take on Crispy, you get me. She has totally risked herself by saying what she thinks along with alot of other people involved, who have something to risk here. It's really easy for people who have no relationships, or nothing at stake to say what they think. It isn't the case for some of us. Please respect that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HAPe4me
bah humbug, CW, I DO hope you are not callling those who have enjoyed and learned good stuff from those who minister under the CES/STF banner bad fruit? Say what you want, but I have seen good fruit from this ministry, so would this mean then that there can't be "bad fruit"? It would seem so from your narrow interpretation of a single verse.
FWIIW, I have often heard those who have contact with STF speak in loving ways of having a relationship with Jesus, unlike when they were involved with TWI. CW, you speak wrongly on this subject as it pertains to many of the people who receive some of their information from STF.
For others, it seems "tis the season to rejoice" in the troubles of someone else, because they are not your troubles, perhaps. 10 pages on this thread already? Is "THE's" longstanding record at risk? nah, a month ago most here could not have cared less about CES or STF. this too will pass, probably after the "spiritual" holiday.
HAP
Edited by HAPe4meLink to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Where to start......?
If we aren't careful this can become a case of "rejoicing in iniquity."
Not accusing anyone of it yet - but this thread does have a circus-like quality to it. No disrespect meant - but when people's pains and lives are paraded in front of a crowd - well.... it's just a freak show.
I'm not saying that there isn't a place for this discussion - but motive would seem to be a real factor.
Reality check (for me first) : What are "we" hoping to accomplish here? I mean, when I first left the Roman Catholic Church, I didn't keep tabs on what was going on there or in Rome. Neither did I do that when I left TWI. Now I find myself checking this thread regularly - and I was never even involved with CES - tho I do have some dear friends that are.
This is a sad time for the body of Christ - do we really want to say our "I told you so's" and " it figures"? Some folks got royally screwed here! I dont' care who they are or what they've done - people are important. And yes, I know that I have participated in the thread and made some sly remarks. Now I'm just praying that these folks get healed.
Ok - beat me now.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HAPe4me
no beating from me dooj
~HAP
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
No, Hap, I'm not. I am calling what the organization is producing bad fruit.
For me there is no doubt whatsover that CES was NOT originated at the hearkening of the Lord, but as a kneejerk reaction by a bunch of folks who were used to having power and authority in an organization and simply did not know what to do with themselves without power and position in an organization.
You may have seen good fruit in people's lives who were involved in the organization, but there's not one shred of evidence that the organization has anything but bad fruit.
This is where people got screwed up in twi...
Confusing the organization with people's walks.
It is this confusion that keeps people bound into the error of twi...
People go running around looking for the organizational stuff...
The twigs, the ROA, the teachings, etc.
Of course, this is all my opinion...which is pretty much worth nothing to anybody but myself...and the value to myself is minimal. It's just something I don't get...why rebuild babylon?
Edited by CoolWatersLink to comment
Share on other sites
HAPe4me
correct CW your analysis that there is not a shred of evidence of good fruit is your opinion. Thank you for that explanation..
An organization CAN be an assist to individuals seeking growth and truth. That same Jesus you alluded to as setting the standard himself formed an organization of 12 apostles. I missed the new bible that must have come out after our TWI experience where God forbade organizations and instructed us to be islands unto Him.
~HAP
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Dooj -- I (for one) won't beat you.
Yea -- I am saddened by those who have never had anything to do with CES,
making comments detrimental to the heart of those who started it.
If you've never heard BB King play, but are a fan of the blues --
(please) don't offer a commentary on his rendition thereof.
Same thing -- you know not whereof you speak.
I for one am glad this came out in the open, as I had no idea about it.
And yes -- I can do without all the *snide* comments about CES,
and the cheap comparisions made to twi.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
You're being funny, right? Or do you think I'm too stupid to grasp that there can be fruitful organizations?
I've got a long, long history with JAL...from waaaaaaaaaaaaay back when he was NY limb leader....even did the only actual extwi interview of JAL when CES was very young...and CES was the first place I turned when I found out there were twi splinter groups. I have friends whose lives were nearly ruined by CES and/or CES 'affiliate fellowships'. I have personal, long-term, up close experience with CES 'ministers'.
I'm speaking from experience.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
CW --I know you do. I was referencing other folks.
(Ps -- I was gonna say something here, but it wouldn't be profitable.)
Love ya --don't want to argue. :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HAPe4me
ok CW, I guess I misunderstood you. No I never thought you were stupid, I DID think you were saying people are too stupid that they think they wish an organization. No I was not being funny, I was disputing what I understood as your premise.
Peace out
~HAP
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.