BillyD, thank for your response, but honestly, the non-profit label means absolutely nothing to me and is actually laughable, imo. The groups who claim to not be making any money because of their non-profit status seem to be the ones abusing the privileges the most.
Maybe the actual workers aren't getting rich, but I'd wager my whole paycheck that someone is. TWI has used those same arguments that you posted, and, while the actual worker bees live in dorms, make less than minimum wage after figuring in how much work they did and they do all that work without benefits. Meanwhile, down on the ranch, the leaders have personal assistants who do everything from ironing their sheets, chauffeuring their kids, cooking dinners and giving them obscene amounts of 'petty cash' to spend on themselves.
Usually, in my experience, the ones who are really helping people don't ask for money. Hence, the examples in my previous post. Even Paw shells out money every month to keep the cafe open and has never asked for a penny from anyone. He didn't even have a way for people to donate money till people bugged him about it. THOSE are the kind of folks I tend to trust, respect and believe really want to help folks.
Sorry, I just don't buy that money isn't being abused by those who are claiming to 'work for God' at STFI. <_<
Belle,
Regardless of your previous experience, the fact is that you weren't there. I was. In fact, for two years I posted all of the checks!!! No one is driving around in a $50,000 new car, no one has a personal assistant, and there are no Board "retreats" in the Bahamas. The workers have benefits (vacation time, excellent health coverage, etc), and, until the latest bit of insanity, have been taken care of.
Here's the reason I'm so insistant on setting the facts straight here: though you experienced one thing with TWI, you dishonor many honest, hard working people (including me) by insisting that "someone" is getting rich off of the money that is sent to CES/STF. And your argument that "those who are really helping people aren't asking for money" just doesn't hold water. My wife currently works for a non-profit agency that is able to direct at least 85% of what they "ask" for directly toward services. Here's their link - check them out: www.littlereddoor.org.
My point: please don't make blanket accusations and hold judgements when you don't REALLY know the truth. Now, I'm not naive enough to think that CES/STF has operated at the height of efficiency, and if there have been abuses they are more a minority than a majority. If you or someone else presents FACTS that prove otherwise, I'll gladly eat crow. Until then, I'll fight for the people I know have worked their butts off for the sole purpose of helping people and making a difference in this crazy world.
Belle, my experience of you on this board has been predominantly positive. My involvement in the "mess" at CES has given me a taste of what many went through in TWI - particularly in the character assasination of my wife. My heart is not to attack you personally, but to encourage an honest examination of the facts and not judgements based on past hurts.
Another related clarification (not to you, Belle, but in general): though JAL lived out of the "can" for many years, he's spent the past few years building a very successful SAT prep business. So much for those who believe he's never worked a day in his life. In fact, he's one of the hardest working people I know.
Evan... I still don't get the Swartratra bit? Is that a reference to something? Or is it just a strangeoid name to go with the strangeoid person who made it up?
I knew KA's brother. He was in the 8th Corps... a real arsenehole.
He's still in and says he sees the problems in TWI but can't leave since he employs so many TWIers for his business. (more like slave labour).
ala, you did not read my post closely enough--swatrattra "was" the "name" of the 5star genn-er-rall who KAG so "successfully" dealt with her interim year in kork training...
Did you read Elizabeth Lynn's prophesies and letters on page 2 and 3. Can you relate to what Elizabeth Lynn went through? Can you imagine being under KAG microscope every day? I am interested in your perspective. What were you told about the divorce. Did you think it made sense after only a year and a half?
This whole thing is almost laughable. It's like watching a weird movie about weirdoes thinking they're gonna take over the world by convincing everyone that they have powers to contact the ALL MIGHTY... who happens to live on Pluto and grows hemp for a living...
where does it end???
these people sure do like to complicate their lives... holy schmoly..
my advice to them: go see a good concert, have a few brews and enjoy the tunes!!
Yah. Linda Z, that's interesting. Do you think that amounted to what we called "manifestations"? Or was it something different? I'm still trying to get a handle on the Personal Prophecy, and Dream Prophecy. At first I didn't want to derail this thread to that direction but it seems that those beliefs and related activities figure into the topic.
Does anyone know if there's a public document or statement of what it is, how it works, what to expect, etc.? I'd like to see some sort of biblical documentation of it. I can guess some of it probably but it would be nice to see some kind of history of development, etc.
My only experiences as a recipient of this kind of thing have been pretty flat. I got nada. Zip. Diddly. Nothing came down the pike for me. I won't name the person here, it was a long time ago and they're outside of CES but I think...are of a similar background, so add as many grains of salt as make it palatable. They clammed up. I had to actually ask Soooooo, is that it? and they couldn't talk, and that was that. Seriously, I took their hand and lifted them up and stood up and said Ooookay. Gotta go. I still don't know what happened, but I have a guess.
I confess I was less than an ideal particpant, but I'm always ready for a fresh dash of reality. Y'know, bring it on, be my Mommy. Or Daddy, whichever works. But it was weird, even for me.
I just checked the "Ministries" tab on the STFI site and that page is still under construction. Mabye there's some stuff from the old site that will go back up...?
Someone please tell me this is all just a big, malicious joke... (cuz it really is)
Personally, I praise God for ANYONE who works as Christ's ambassador, regardless of how they choose to do it.
Now for that I'll call you NAIVE... for not expecting folks to make the STFI/stiffy connection I'll call you innocent...
in '78 when karen ann was my twig leader in the corps, we used to call her endora
...must...not...comment...must...hold...tongue!!!
I have heard from some of the folks that are still on Staff that he (John Schoenheit) is the next in line to be President.
Here's my question Jeff, if John has been on the board all this time, and knows of and endorses this 'Prophetic Council'... how will that be any different? Where is an example of this 'Prophetic Council' in the Bible in the Grace Admin? ...or anywhere that it could be construed as "of God" and "profitable"?
I'm a partner with them, as I send a small monthly donation to them.
Dave, do you buy into this 'prophecy council' stuff???
We'uns in the 6ckpphhtt kork had to listen to a loony-tunes tape of her experiences of an "Exorcist, Legion-style" spirit possessed individual on her interim year and the chief spirit named(drum roll, please, give it up for....) SWATRATTRA!!
SWATRATTRA? ...is it just me or does that sound like the name of some super-hero from a cheap porn movie.
Belle,
Regardless of your previous experience, the fact is that you weren't there. I was. In fact, for two years I posted all of the checks!!! No one is driving around in a $50,000 new car, no one has a personal assistant, and there are no Board "retreats" in the Bahamas. The workers have benefits (vacation time, excellent health coverage, etc), and, until the latest bit of insanity, have been taken care of.
BillyD, so there was a poor choice of words... how about these words: Folks are making a living off of other folks donations selling this kind of krap. Is that a 'fair-er' statement to you?
...gotta go dream on some things now...
Belle, I think Billy D's post to you was very reasonable. Take it to heart... :)
I wish you would have expressed this to her via PM, there was no need to do it here. Take it to heart...
I know what you've posted before (and a couple of pages back)...
So let me put it this way: In all the literature you've received, and all you've "known" about them, are you saying this is the first time you've ever heard of a "Prophetic Council"? ...or the first you've heard of all of the things going on between the individuals in the pdf files?
I guess that question goes out to any of the other CES/STFI folks out there as well...
Is the existence of a 'Prophetic Council' that evidently plays a large part in the guidance of the folks who are running this "ministry" a commonly known thing? Or is it something that has been held "close to the vest" for only those at the top?
And, if this wasn't 'common knowledge' doesn't it make you think twice about supporting this group in the future?
I know what you've posted before (and a couple of pages back)...
So let me put it this way: In all the literature you've received, and all you've "known" about them, are you saying this is the first time you've ever heard of a "Prophetic Council"? ...or the first you've heard of all of the things going on between the individuals in the pdf files?
Tom --- yes.
I was never aware of a prophetic council, although I was/ am aware that
*personal prophecy* might still be a part of CES fellowships.
As I said -- I've never been to one, so I can't comment as to that aspect.
This *prophetic council* is new (and disturbing), to me.
OK.. thanks... and I'm really not trying to make this about you personally but...
Doesn't it make you think twice about supporting this group in the future? That (1) they could be doing this stuff without letting the folks know and (2) that John S. (who some say will be the next pres) evidently knew about it and (IMO) went along with it?
(Those questions are for any of the CES/STFI folks out there BTW)
OK.. thanks... and I'm really not trying to make this about you personally but...
Doesn't it make you think twice about supporting this group in the future? That (1) they could be doing this stuff without letting the folks know and (2) that John S. (who some say will be the next pres) evidently knew about it and (IMO) went along with it?
(Those questions are for any of the CES/STFI folks out there BTW)
I'm thinking about it now.
FYI-- my donation to CES is specifically for the two websites they have.
My support goes to Truth or Tradition.com, and Biblical Unitarian.com.
I'm thinking that my money was not hijacked to line someone's pockets.
And I can't comment about John S, and what he might have/ or might not have known,
since I've never been directly involved.
Given the circumstances (reading them here),
I'm guessing he wasn't able to input like he would have liked to.
I wish you would have expressed this to her via PM, there was no need to do it here. Take it to heart...
Why a PM Tom? Belle didn't PM him on her opinion. She said it openly, and so I gave my opinion openly. Relax dude. And take chill pill towards DMiller too. Or, maybe according to you, you should PM him? I dunno. I think this discussion is going along just fine without the need for moderation. Everyone's cool. And, it is a very interesting topic and discussion to me....
And, whoever said the thing abvout calling their twig leader in the Corps "Endora". Well, my wife cracked up over that one, in that she knew that gal in question very well. and says that the "Endora" moniker fit her quite well...
Yeah, y'all involved with CES and alla that oughta run away. Far away...Sounds too danged weird to me...
It would seem that "normal Christianity", where people go to church, worship God, pray and live godly lives...is not good enough for this CES/STIFFY bunch.
They seem determined to delve into para normal experiences, pycho drama and abra cadabra stuff (Momentus anyone?). They need to be a leg up on the "run of the mill" members of Christ's body with their ever so special "spiritual insight"...Even from a cursory glance these people creep me out...and for those who are up close and personal...Yikes!
Isn't life short enough without subjecting yourself to this spiritually inbred bunch of hooligans?
As far as these "prophetic dreams" go...maybe somebody just ate too many pickled eggs before they went to bed?
BillyD, thank you for your response. :) I stand corrected and apologize.
That being said, when there's this kind of hooey going on in a "godly" organization it's very easy to make the leap of logic to the thought that there's more amiss within the group than merely this prophetic council and their verbal and spiritual abuse. Especially given the fact that TWI isn't the only "non-profit" organization raping the bank account of folks in the guise of "helping others." Apparently this isn't your experience with this particular group. (I hope Oakspear doesn't take my apology as insincere - I'm merely explaining why I came to my conclusion.)
Does the group provide financial statements for their members? If someone wanted to know how much money was coming in and where it was being spent, would they be able to get that information? Would they have to ask for it or is it made public as a matter of policy?
I also do a lot of volunteer work for non-profits that (hopefully) don't exploit others. I see no indication that they do and certainly not all non-profits are crooked thieves.
Strange Brother, thank you. I love ya, Jonny, but getting 'reproved' from you makes me giggle. Can I buy ya a sno cone?
David, earlier in the thread you said that this cleared up some questions that you had. I'm curious as to whether that means there were 'red flags' with your experience with the group. (Like Tom, I'm not trying to make it personal at all, just curious given my propensity for ignoring those red flags in the past.)
The "stiffy" thing, imo, is just human nature. (I also think ex is the queen of one-liners and crack up reading her posts so often.) We make associations in our brains naturally and, in many cases, it enables us to help remember things. I think stuff like that should be considered when choosing a name. Just went through that with a new subsidiary company we are starting at work. One of the exercises we went through on the committee was to consider the possible names and any negative, silly, awkward things that could come out of using that name.
Sort of like one wouldn't really name their child Endora in our time. I'd hope, anyway.
Belle, I understood what you meant and it was really sweet. I feel the same way. There are a lot of folks who minister 24/7 without the recognition of a ministry or title or name tag or pay check. It was meant more as a tribute to some, than a slam to others.
Capt. Crunch, thanks for bringing this into the open. There are a lot of folks that need to know how things are run in order to make appropriate choices.
Jeff, you were always a stand up guy. Your candor here is really appreciated. Your good name and reputation goes far in lending legitimacy to what folks in a group are doing.
I know that it is tough when you have worked hard with a group.
I hope that you are right, that the folks in ces can get on the right track.
I hope that it isn`t like in twi when the good men stood up and tried to change course, they were ignored and thrown out and twi went on, business as usual on the backs of the hard working and sincere folks who don`t know what is going on in the top circle.
MY ONLY experience with CES has been with a few friends that were close to JAL. They were always coming up with a new "tweeking" of what TWI taught. It was never just "well TWI got it wrong," it was ""not only did TWI get it wrong - but HERE is the new revelation....blah blah blah."
IMHO whenever you have a ministry that's sole duty and mission is research and teaching, you have the makings of a mess. Afterall, after a while you have to start really stretching for new material - else you've outlived your usefullness and folks who have become addicted to "some new thing" will leave for yet another new thing.
Chrispy & I have received several "encouragements" to post. I feel almost as bad as I did when I first read The Passing of a Patriarch written by another clown who I knew in the early 70's had some major personal issues. Then they made him a leader???? Go figure.
I've known a lot of these people for a long time, some better than others. Some I still like and admire, some have never seemed qualified to serve. I attended and played some of my songs at CES conferences off and on from the early 90's until a couple of years ago. I've participated in bringing CES leaders into my area and my home.
I have encouraged them for a long time to expand from just being a teaching and publishing unit to being much more open to participation and allowing people to share their gifts. We have had our differences on the level of structure and leadership needed, with me falling on the side of small/local/as little as possible. CES was not comfortable with the Open Church concept, and had their share of experiences with people wanting to do more and also wrest as much control as possible from CES and hold it themselves. But I attribute this to our American and TWI model of "the aggressive one wins." Too many people seem to admire the strong aggressive @$$-H*le type of leader - just like Israel wanted a King.
I was disappointed in a number of discussions with some CES leadership over a period of time - there was an awful lot of ignoring my points, claiming to have never said something, brushing me aside when I was asking about feeling like there was something going on underneath that the "public" did not know about. So several years ago - can't remember the exact date - for those who know, it coincided with the Carlson's being asked to go on a leave of absence or some such that turned out to be permanent. I knew nothing of this at the time but just sensed something was "up" and kept being rebuffed.
So I asked God - what is going on? He showed me a picture of me - an 8 year old - holding open the door to a daycare room. In it were about 20 12-18 month old toddlers, all wearing nothing but Pampers. Their heads were the heads of the various CES leaders. They were reaching back into their diapers and pulling out poop and smearing it on each other. The two at the center were the Graesers.
God said to me - you are not an adult, you are an 8 year old but you are not a toddler either. Can you reason with a toddler? I said no. He said if you go in that room to try to clean up those toddlers you will get poop smeared on you. Close the door and go away and wait.
I am glad that I obeyed God.
9 months later I learned about the Carlsons and the Stones and John & Elizabeth Lynn's divorce and the Prophetic Team poop smearing; as well as other people and other hurts.
Each person has to decide if they have obeyed God and done their best these past years. Some I know have much to repent for.
I hope the Board does the right thing.
I have been amazed at the large load of cr@P that passes as legitimate personal prophecy in this ministry.
Also I know I have weird dreams when I eat spicey foods. So I ignore those.
I'd still like to hear from CES/STFI folks about the following:
Is the existence of a 'Prophetic Council' that evidently plays a large part in the guidance of the folks who are running this "ministry" a commonly known thing? Or is it something that has been held "close to the vest" for only those at the top?
And, if this wasn't 'common knowledge' doesn't it make you think twice about supporting this group in the future?
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notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
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I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
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I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
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Billy D
Belle,
Regardless of your previous experience, the fact is that you weren't there. I was. In fact, for two years I posted all of the checks!!! No one is driving around in a $50,000 new car, no one has a personal assistant, and there are no Board "retreats" in the Bahamas. The workers have benefits (vacation time, excellent health coverage, etc), and, until the latest bit of insanity, have been taken care of.
Here's the reason I'm so insistant on setting the facts straight here: though you experienced one thing with TWI, you dishonor many honest, hard working people (including me) by insisting that "someone" is getting rich off of the money that is sent to CES/STF. And your argument that "those who are really helping people aren't asking for money" just doesn't hold water. My wife currently works for a non-profit agency that is able to direct at least 85% of what they "ask" for directly toward services. Here's their link - check them out: www.littlereddoor.org.
My point: please don't make blanket accusations and hold judgements when you don't REALLY know the truth. Now, I'm not naive enough to think that CES/STF has operated at the height of efficiency, and if there have been abuses they are more a minority than a majority. If you or someone else presents FACTS that prove otherwise, I'll gladly eat crow. Until then, I'll fight for the people I know have worked their butts off for the sole purpose of helping people and making a difference in this crazy world.
Belle, my experience of you on this board has been predominantly positive. My involvement in the "mess" at CES has given me a taste of what many went through in TWI - particularly in the character assasination of my wife. My heart is not to attack you personally, but to encourage an honest examination of the facts and not judgements based on past hurts.
Another related clarification (not to you, Belle, but in general): though JAL lived out of the "can" for many years, he's spent the past few years building a very successful SAT prep business. So much for those who believe he's never worked a day in his life. In fact, he's one of the hardest working people I know.
~B
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alfakat
ala, you did not read my post closely enough--swatrattra "was" the "name" of the 5star genn-er-rall who KAG so "successfully" dealt with her interim year in kork training...
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Captain Crunch
Hi, Billy D!
Did you read Elizabeth Lynn's prophesies and letters on page 2 and 3. Can you relate to what Elizabeth Lynn went through? Can you imagine being under KAG microscope every day? I am interested in your perspective. What were you told about the divorce. Did you think it made sense after only a year and a half?
Regards,
CC
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J0nny Ling0
Belle, I think Billy D's post to you was very reasonable. Take it to heart... :)
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socks
bluezman, tics!!!
Yah. Linda Z, that's interesting. Do you think that amounted to what we called "manifestations"? Or was it something different? I'm still trying to get a handle on the Personal Prophecy, and Dream Prophecy. At first I didn't want to derail this thread to that direction but it seems that those beliefs and related activities figure into the topic.
Does anyone know if there's a public document or statement of what it is, how it works, what to expect, etc.? I'd like to see some sort of biblical documentation of it. I can guess some of it probably but it would be nice to see some kind of history of development, etc.
My only experiences as a recipient of this kind of thing have been pretty flat. I got nada. Zip. Diddly. Nothing came down the pike for me. I won't name the person here, it was a long time ago and they're outside of CES but I think...are of a similar background, so add as many grains of salt as make it palatable. They clammed up. I had to actually ask Soooooo, is that it? and they couldn't talk, and that was that. Seriously, I took their hand and lifted them up and stood up and said Ooookay. Gotta go. I still don't know what happened, but I have a guess.
I confess I was less than an ideal particpant, but I'm always ready for a fresh dash of reality. Y'know, bring it on, be my Mommy. Or Daddy, whichever works. But it was weird, even for me.
I just checked the "Ministries" tab on the STFI site and that page is still under construction. Mabye there's some stuff from the old site that will go back up...?
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dmiller
Jonny -- yes it was. And as pertains the *sales* aspect --
the books I've bought from them were reasonably priced,
(NOT $100.00 per book, like Walter is offering for sale).
I've been to the CES office many times, when in Indiana.
It's small, cramped for space, but they do with what they have.
If they were *all about money* --
they might have had a *docvic* type of building, but they don't.
In my experience with CES -- it has never been about the money.
Had it been, I wouldn't have stuck around.
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Tom Strange
'PROPHETIC COUNCIL'??? ...A FREAKING 'PROPHETIC COUNCIL'?
Someone please tell me this is all just a big, malicious joke... (cuz it really is)
Now for that I'll call you NAIVE... for not expecting folks to make the STFI/stiffy connection I'll call you innocent...
...must...not...comment...must...hold...tongue!!!
Here's my question Jeff, if John has been on the board all this time, and knows of and endorses this 'Prophetic Council'... how will that be any different? Where is an example of this 'Prophetic Council' in the Bible in the Grace Admin? ...or anywhere that it could be construed as "of God" and "profitable"?
Dave, do you buy into this 'prophecy council' stuff???
SWATRATTRA? ...is it just me or does that sound like the name of some super-hero from a cheap porn movie.
BillyD, so there was a poor choice of words... how about these words: Folks are making a living off of other folks donations selling this kind of krap. Is that a 'fair-er' statement to you?
...gotta go dream on some things now...
I wish you would have expressed this to her via PM, there was no need to do it here. Take it to heart...
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dmiller
Tom -- scroll back a page or two. You'll see this is new info to me as well.
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Tom Strange
The news that there is a "Prophetic Council"???
Is this "Prophetic Council" something that the rank and file of CES/STFI know about? ...practice? ...go along with?
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dmiller
Like I said --- scroll back a a page or two.
I'm not rank and file of CES.
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Tom Strange
Dave, I know you're not.
I know what you've posted before (and a couple of pages back)...
So let me put it this way: In all the literature you've received, and all you've "known" about them, are you saying this is the first time you've ever heard of a "Prophetic Council"? ...or the first you've heard of all of the things going on between the individuals in the pdf files?
I guess that question goes out to any of the other CES/STFI folks out there as well...
Is the existence of a 'Prophetic Council' that evidently plays a large part in the guidance of the folks who are running this "ministry" a commonly known thing? Or is it something that has been held "close to the vest" for only those at the top?
And, if this wasn't 'common knowledge' doesn't it make you think twice about supporting this group in the future?
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dmiller
Tom --- yes.
I was never aware of a prophetic council, although I was/ am aware that
*personal prophecy* might still be a part of CES fellowships.
As I said -- I've never been to one, so I can't comment as to that aspect.
This *prophetic council* is new (and disturbing), to me.
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Tom Strange
OK.. thanks... and I'm really not trying to make this about you personally but...
Doesn't it make you think twice about supporting this group in the future? That (1) they could be doing this stuff without letting the folks know and (2) that John S. (who some say will be the next pres) evidently knew about it and (IMO) went along with it?
(Those questions are for any of the CES/STFI folks out there BTW)
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dmiller
I'm thinking about it now.
FYI-- my donation to CES is specifically for the two websites they have.
My support goes to Truth or Tradition.com, and Biblical Unitarian.com.
I'm thinking that my money was not hijacked to line someone's pockets.
And I can't comment about John S, and what he might have/ or might not have known,
since I've never been directly involved.
Given the circumstances (reading them here),
I'm guessing he wasn't able to input like he would have liked to.
But --- that's just another IMO.
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J0nny Ling0
Why a PM Tom? Belle didn't PM him on her opinion. She said it openly, and so I gave my opinion openly. Relax dude. And take chill pill towards DMiller too. Or, maybe according to you, you should PM him? I dunno. I think this discussion is going along just fine without the need for moderation. Everyone's cool. And, it is a very interesting topic and discussion to me....
And, whoever said the thing abvout calling their twig leader in the Corps "Endora". Well, my wife cracked up over that one, in that she knew that gal in question very well. and says that the "Endora" moniker fit her quite well...
Yeah, y'all involved with CES and alla that oughta run away. Far away...Sounds too danged weird to me...
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GrouchoMarxJr
It would seem that "normal Christianity", where people go to church, worship God, pray and live godly lives...is not good enough for this CES/STIFFY bunch.
They seem determined to delve into para normal experiences, pycho drama and abra cadabra stuff (Momentus anyone?). They need to be a leg up on the "run of the mill" members of Christ's body with their ever so special "spiritual insight"...Even from a cursory glance these people creep me out...and for those who are up close and personal...Yikes!
Isn't life short enough without subjecting yourself to this spiritually inbred bunch of hooligans?
As far as these "prophetic dreams" go...maybe somebody just ate too many pickled eggs before they went to bed?
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cman
I've had some paranormal experiences but they are not my standard for living.
Love is and other good morals and ethics.
Something about looking for signs in their group that ain't right.
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Belle
BillyD, thank you for your response. :) I stand corrected and apologize.
That being said, when there's this kind of hooey going on in a "godly" organization it's very easy to make the leap of logic to the thought that there's more amiss within the group than merely this prophetic council and their verbal and spiritual abuse.
Especially given the fact that TWI isn't the only "non-profit" organization raping the bank account of folks in the guise of "helping others." Apparently this isn't your experience with this particular group. (I hope Oakspear doesn't take my apology as insincere - I'm merely explaining why I came to my conclusion.)
Does the group provide financial statements for their members? If someone wanted to know how much money was coming in and where it was being spent, would they be able to get that information? Would they have to ask for it or is it made public as a matter of policy?
I also do a lot of volunteer work for non-profits that (hopefully) don't exploit others. I see no indication that they do and certainly not all non-profits are crooked thieves.
Strange Brother, thank you.
I love ya, Jonny, but getting 'reproved' from you makes me giggle. Can I buy ya a sno cone? 
David, earlier in the thread you said that this cleared up some questions that you had. I'm curious as to whether that means there were 'red flags' with your experience with the group. (Like Tom, I'm not trying to make it personal at all, just curious given my propensity for ignoring those red flags in the past.)
The "stiffy" thing, imo, is just human nature. (I also think ex is the queen of one-liners and crack up reading her posts so often.) We make associations in our brains naturally and, in many cases, it enables us to help remember things. I think stuff like that should be considered when choosing a name. Just went through that with a new subsidiary company we are starting at work. One of the exercises we went through on the committee was to consider the possible names and any negative, silly, awkward things that could come out of using that name.
Sort of like one wouldn't really name their child Endora in our time. I'd hope, anyway.
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Sushi
I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems to me, STFI has followed in the footsteps of TWI and become STFU?
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rascal
Belle, I understood what you meant and it was really sweet. I feel the same way. There are a lot of folks who minister 24/7 without the recognition of a ministry or title or name tag or pay check. It was meant more as a tribute to some, than a slam to others.
Capt. Crunch, thanks for bringing this into the open. There are a lot of folks that need to know how things are run in order to make appropriate choices.
Jeff, you were always a stand up guy. Your candor here is really appreciated. Your good name and reputation goes far in lending legitimacy to what folks in a group are doing.
I know that it is tough when you have worked hard with a group.
I hope that you are right, that the folks in ces can get on the right track.
I hope that it isn`t like in twi when the good men stood up and tried to change course, they were ignored and thrown out and twi went on, business as usual on the backs of the hard working and sincere folks who don`t know what is going on in the top circle.
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doojable
MY ONLY experience with CES has been with a few friends that were close to JAL. They were always coming up with a new "tweeking" of what TWI taught. It was never just "well TWI got it wrong," it was ""not only did TWI get it wrong - but HERE is the new revelation....blah blah blah."
IMHO whenever you have a ministry that's sole duty and mission is research and teaching, you have the makings of a mess. Afterall, after a while you have to start really stretching for new material - else you've outlived your usefullness and folks who have become addicted to "some new thing" will leave for yet another new thing.
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J0nny Ling0
Swattrattra! Sounds like Jenga! Or maybe like she was the Priestess Of Gozer!
And Belle, sorry, it was only a suggestion. Didn't mean it to be offensive.
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richnchrispy
Chrispy & I have received several "encouragements" to post. I feel almost as bad as I did when I first read The Passing of a Patriarch written by another clown who I knew in the early 70's had some major personal issues. Then they made him a leader???? Go figure.
I've known a lot of these people for a long time, some better than others. Some I still like and admire, some have never seemed qualified to serve. I attended and played some of my songs at CES conferences off and on from the early 90's until a couple of years ago. I've participated in bringing CES leaders into my area and my home.
I have encouraged them for a long time to expand from just being a teaching and publishing unit to being much more open to participation and allowing people to share their gifts. We have had our differences on the level of structure and leadership needed, with me falling on the side of small/local/as little as possible. CES was not comfortable with the Open Church concept, and had their share of experiences with people wanting to do more and also wrest as much control as possible from CES and hold it themselves. But I attribute this to our American and TWI model of "the aggressive one wins." Too many people seem to admire the strong aggressive @$$-H*le type of leader - just like Israel wanted a King.
I was disappointed in a number of discussions with some CES leadership over a period of time - there was an awful lot of ignoring my points, claiming to have never said something, brushing me aside when I was asking about feeling like there was something going on underneath that the "public" did not know about. So several years ago - can't remember the exact date - for those who know, it coincided with the Carlson's being asked to go on a leave of absence or some such that turned out to be permanent. I knew nothing of this at the time but just sensed something was "up" and kept being rebuffed.
So I asked God - what is going on? He showed me a picture of me - an 8 year old - holding open the door to a daycare room. In it were about 20 12-18 month old toddlers, all wearing nothing but Pampers. Their heads were the heads of the various CES leaders. They were reaching back into their diapers and pulling out poop and smearing it on each other. The two at the center were the Graesers.
God said to me - you are not an adult, you are an 8 year old but you are not a toddler either. Can you reason with a toddler? I said no. He said if you go in that room to try to clean up those toddlers you will get poop smeared on you. Close the door and go away and wait.
I am glad that I obeyed God.
9 months later I learned about the Carlsons and the Stones and John & Elizabeth Lynn's divorce and the Prophetic Team poop smearing; as well as other people and other hurts.
Each person has to decide if they have obeyed God and done their best these past years. Some I know have much to repent for.
I hope the Board does the right thing.
I have been amazed at the large load of cr@P that passes as legitimate personal prophecy in this ministry.
Also I know I have weird dreams when I eat spicey foods. So I ignore those.
Richard
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Tom Strange
no prob Jonny, just 'hit me wrong' I guess...
I'd still like to hear from CES/STFI folks about the following:
Is the existence of a 'Prophetic Council' that evidently plays a large part in the guidance of the folks who are running this "ministry" a commonly known thing? Or is it something that has been held "close to the vest" for only those at the top?
And, if this wasn't 'common knowledge' doesn't it make you think twice about supporting this group in the future?
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