So much pain on display for all to see..... So much sin....
Wouldn't it have been nice if we really had learned to be as wise as serpents and harmless as doves? Then not only would people not be DOING this to each other, they would not be finding themselves cornered.
For all the Bible taught, you'd think there would be more wisdom....Just goes to show you that knowlege isn't enough.
Dave, I understand... maybe there's a local shelter or group there in Duluth that can use your help... I know I get a sense of having helped in some way doing that.
Dave, I understand... maybe there's a local shelter or group there in Duluth that can use your help... I know I get a sense of having helped in some way doing that.
Tom -- I know many folks here who need help/ money. I don't have a lot,
but (these days), I'm thinking it might be better spent here, rather than there.
Just a few thoughts on CES’s “prophetic” ideas, which came to mind over the course of reading this thread.
It’s as if the leaders of CES had been gravitating toward becoming modern day Montanists (an ancient “follow the spirit” movement led by a guy named Montanus and his two prophetesses) .
Just as other “heretics” of old had been observed doing; like Simon Magus, who many here are already acquainted through Acts ch.8, which however doesn’t tell us everything about Simon.
For additional info, one needs to explore the writings of the Church Fathers, such as Tertullian and Epiphanius.
Simon attained the title of “God”, apparently in no small part by virtue of his prophetess, who accompanied him everywhere in his preaching. “Doncha know”, Simon had to maintain his connection to God, so “the Prophetess” went with him. Likewise Apelles, a former Marcionite, left that Church and started his own thing, being led about -- by a prophetess.
It’s interesting to see this still in practice today.
The prophetesses accompanying both Simon and Apelles were also said to have been regarded by both men (or as far as we know, their opponents) as no less the reincarnation of Helen of Troy - on whose account the city of Troy became demolished.
Up until the CC's posting of the documents, I was under the impression that CES was a warm, fuzzy, kumbiya singing TWI redux. It clearly is not. It is a vicious, venom spewing, hierarchical cult.
Instead of calling CC's act of bringing the truth of CES of light for us to view in the clear light of day devilish, perhaps it would better to remember that it wasn't until Waydale, GSC (and you in my case) pulled back the curtain on TWI that we were able to process and move on with our lives. The truth does set us free indeed.
When the hell are believers going to learn to keep the word simple. Sounds like these "false prophets" have watched too many Angel Heart & Rosemary's baby movies. They are sick sick sick.
They should all mind their own business and stay the "fxxx" out of the believers lives. You pray for and with people and then allow GOD to work. Too many cooks if you ask me. Their fruit will expose them. I was sickened by that "prophetic piece" about Elizabeth.
John should have stuck by his wife, believed her through it and told them to go "fxxx" themselves. Been there done that. Life is not perfect in any way and it does not matter what problems we encounter as believers and we get some doosies, GOD DELIVERS OUT OF THEM ALL. Sounds like they got JAL to compromise on their terms and give up on his wife.
Sick Sick Sick. Oh Lord, kick their axxes. Protect your people from these barbarians.
Well, minor points, reading those conference agendas, WhiteDove. Language that fits into my "words I wish I'd never heard a 1,000 times" list appear prominently. Since it's late, a rant:
Prophecy, both personal and corporate, is one of God's provisions for the Church Age, and more and more Christians are embracing prophets and "personal prophecy." With its popularity, however, have come abuses and misunderstandings, and this teaching aims to empower the listener with the keys to evaluating all forms of prophetic guidance. Armed with this knowledge, the Christian need not fear the ministry of a prophet or even false prophets, but can separate truth from error and God's voice from the human element. How to stand responsibly in regard to a prophetic word is also discussed, in order to not bring discredit to God, the ministry of a prophet, or the manifestation of prophecy. By Karen Anne Graeser.
- Corporate is a word that's become ingrained in Christian writing. I need to find out when it became popular. It's the buzzword of this decade, for sure. Corporate Christianity. Just the sound of it makes me want to open a 401K and write a Mission Statement. Every podunk religious suit can now sound stylish by adding that single word to their sermon. Dilbert, where are we when we need you!? Issue a word! (see "Prophetic Word" below)
- If being a prophet means you get "embraced" sign me up. And I mean that in the best possible way, as I promise to get no personal pleasure as the embracee, ever or at anytime. I do it for you, people. Line up, I'm here for YOU.
- Empower. I'm sure we're all fed up with being empowered. Myself, I've been so empowered so many times by so many people in so many situations that I could light up our whole city for a week. My butt glows the primary colors I'm so empowered. You can pretty much be sure - soon as someone starts working overtime to empower you, the power will quickly being to ebb out of you and into them. Again, the buzz-word of all buzz words, so ubiquitous it's overtaken "paradigm" as The Word of the 90's, yes, it's actually changed the past. Use it or lose it. No, make that "use it and lose it".
- Prophetic word. A prophetic word. Just one, that's all I need. The Prohetic Word for today is - "Table". Don't complain - you got the word, now use it. In a sentence. One that fulfills it.
WOW! Speaking of Prophetic Guidance, I posted before logging in and got a field to put in a name and it posted up with that name. COOL! I had no idea that could be done. Well, go figger. Have no fear, however, all words posted as socksarama can be verified as a True Socks Post. Donations should be sent via the normal channels. Thank you!
"I left my camel filters on the TABLE"...fulfillment abounds!
I can't recall the last time I saw a thread "take off" like this one!...such passionate responses!
I think that responses from the parties involved would be appropriate...Does Karen Graeser or Elizabeth or JAL or Mark Graeser or John S have anything to say?...C'mon folks don't be bashful.
It would appear that the inner workings of this group have been exposed to the light of day and now face the scrutiny of critical examination...and that's NEVER good for a cult.
...Maybe Karen has had a dream about all of us here that she would like to share?...Personally, I think these people are nuttier than a Christmas fruitcake and am hopeful that they will post here to show why all their detractors are wrong....but then again, I doubt that they will because GreaseSpot Cafe thrives on differing opinions...which is not conducive for "dream interpreters"...
I'm sorry to give you more bad news. :( Your impression that CES is "far flung" and does not attempt to control fellowships like TWI does appears to be incorrect. I've read more than one post on that, but Galen's pretty much sums it up (excerpts posted). It sounds like a type of "loyalty letter", no? Yet one more comparison of how TWI and CES are alike, imo.
We were involved with CES for a while. ...
John S. has an incredible in-depth knowledge of the 'Holy Lands'. He is capable of delivering wonderful teachings, at the correct sites, explaining what happened at each location. Would anyone be interested in watching these videos? Sure they would. But they would rather focus on visions about spiders.
Our eldest son was tired of living in locations where there were no other like-minded believers, so he moved out there to be near CES, to be near a large group of like-minded believers. He took with him his own copies of PFAL on DVD, so he is very much familiar with exactly what doctrine is taught in each segment. He attended CES fellowships, and was troubled that each fellowship they would spend time, running down: "the evils that were taught in that other ministry". He spoke up numerous times, as they would launch into making up stuff that VPW 'taught'. He found that some of the CES fellowships have taken doctrines that WC taught to hurt folks and CES presents it all as taught in PFAL. He tried to fellowship with them, but he could not stomach the heaping of lies. [by all means there may be some error in PFAL, that topic has been debated endlessly. There is no good reason to make-up lies and attribute PFAL for other errors that folks came up with on their own.]
We did list our fellowship on the CES list of fellowships; for a while when CES was a group of 20 committees, and very un-organized.
But then they came out with a document that they wanted each fellowship coordinator to sign and swear to; before CES would further list your fellowship. I was given their 'code of conduct' contract to sign, and it was explained to us at that meeting. The leadership wanted their children to be able to travel and enjoy fellowships, and they wanted to ensure that the leadership's adult children would not be tempted to form any personal relationship with anyone not of CES leadership' choosing. So to protect their children from illicit adult relationships, they wrote their 'code of conduct' for fellowships.
...
I see no need to swear an oath to protect CES leadership' adult children from experiencing life.
We will continue to pray for them.
Galen
I really feel for y'all who got involved with and trusted CES. It's got to feel even worse than learning of the betrayal, evil and ungodly secrets of TWI since it's the second time wolves have deceived the flock - and this was a group who were supposedly "keeping the baby but not the bathwater".
Since vee pee made craiggers twice-fold the child of he11 that he was, does that make these leaders four-fold the child of he11?
Ummmmmm Groucho - don't you remember? Cockaroaches SCATTER when he lights are turned on...........
I'll be shocked and awed if these folks respond to us - they feel no obligation to us here at GSC.
In the meantime, welcome all you new folks! We made about 50 pots of coffee in antipation of your arrival. Pies and desserts are on the house for today. We'll all scoot over and let you talk - or not.
"Just please keep your feet off the TABLE." There -I used my word for the day......
I am sure that we are not much if even a blip on their radar screen. This place is known amongst those faithful to either TWI or serious offshoots as a place for disgruntled and bitter ExWays who congregate in order to stroke each others' hurt feelings...
I don't care if they ever come here and try to explain. How do you ever justify this type of hookie-pookism (I still like that word haha) and claim to still have a sound mind? Other than to fall on your knees before God and beg his forgiveness. This really is between them and God............
My main concern is for the people whose hearts once again have been left in the wreckage. Fool me once, SHAME on you, fool me TWICE shame on me............but I don't intend to shame them, I hope that some of my words can help and heal. Facing the reality is the hardest part, and thank God GSC is here for them. I think this just might "establish" things for people regarding these cults and mind control methods. That Jesus Christ is the only one between them and God. And his love is beyond our wildest expectations. We don't have to go through another man. His love and grace are sufficient.
I have not ever come to GSC to "gawk or to gossip" so please speak for youself...........not for me........and don't ever forget where you came from and the path that led you here.................
I do want to clarify something concerning their fellowships...
I can't speak for every one of them, but the few that I know they really are loosely controlled. And I do emphasize LOOSE.. It is nothing like TWI in that in TWI the TC was controlled by their BC and they had to report everything to their BC and their BC was Corps that was controlled by their LC which in turn went to the Trunk Coordinator at HQ..
In CES/STFI, they have a very decentralized fellowship and really allow the TCs (if you want to call them that) do as they please. Their only "control" would be that they are made to agree with certain rules and regulations but it's really an honor system. No one checking them out and ensuring they are doing things as they agreed. I know this first hand.. THe TCs don't check in with anyone at the home office (HQ) all the time to give updates. They actually can go under the radar for a year and CES wouldn't know a thing they did, yet CES would continue to send new people thier way. (Course the Graesers did send out their scouts last year, their 2 kids to visit all the fellowships.. Only they were kids [despite the fact his son takes after Him and enjoys the limelight. gotta watch that ego.. You too Mr Darr] who were barely wet behind the ears.
So I just wanted to clear up any misconceptions on that.
Of course, be that as it may, they teach doctrines that aren't Biblical with many ties to TWI but some their own. They teach that "God IS NOT in control, nor all knowing".. Yeah.. Ok.. Whatever... That's their fancy way of saying Don't blame God for your faults. However it says a lot more to those desire to put their trust in God.. It's like saying why trust Him, because he isn't even in control! What kind of devilish thinking is that?! Is he God or is He not?! He may not control YOU because he has given you freewill, but he sure is IN CONTROL!
Anyways.. Get on board with GOd and have him lead you to the place he desires for you filled with milk and honey in the end, or get on board with man and have him lead you to the pit. Really simple choice.
I agree I tried to convey that point. While not the tapes themselves I do believe that was the toe in. There were other toes also, some of them were mentioned here some not. IMHO they have clearly drifted off course. Whether they correct the compass time will tell.
This place is known amongst those faithful to either TWI or serious offshoots as a place for disgruntled and bitter ExWays who congregate in order to stroke each others' hurt feelings...
That's because they don't know what a swell place this is Jonny!
If they'd just drop by for a cup of coffee or a slice of pie I'm sure they'd find it as warm and comfortable as we do... "homey comfortable"... (except you gotta keep your shoes on)
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notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
Sushi
I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
Whatsgoingon
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
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doojable
So much pain on display for all to see..... So much sin....
Wouldn't it have been nice if we really had learned to be as wise as serpents and harmless as doves? Then not only would people not be DOING this to each other, they would not be finding themselves cornered.
For all the Bible taught, you'd think there would be more wisdom....Just goes to show you that knowlege isn't enough.
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dmiller
For what it is worth (probably nothing) -- I've decided to *vote* with my checkbook.
I'll be writing CES in the next day or two cancelling my partnership with them, if this isn't resolved.
For what it's worth -- I have supported their websites, since I agree with much that is promoted there.
Many folks look at those sites, and I feel valuable choices are made *available*
to those who are looking for answers.
Sure -- many of the teachings are *docvic oriented*.
I don't care about that. He stole them from others who found the stuff first,
so I have no problem with the teachings. Because he mouthed, wrote, whatever,
teachings from others, doesn't invalidate the work involved.
And -- to their credit -- CES and John S. (especially John S.), has gone to levels of research
that docvic might've wanted to attain -- had he not been hitting the bottle so much.
The things he/ they come up with are quite thoughtful, and worthy of more than just a quick glance.
Now -- I said that, I'll say this.
In my mind -- (and I could be wrong) -- CES is a far flung org.
Nother words -- if you have a fellowship going on in your area,
you're not neccessarily *under the thumb of headquarters*
If I ran a fellowship here in Minney-soda, I wouldn't expect them to tell me what to do.
Perhaps that is something they do -- I don't know.
It's obvious that some serious $h!t is happening in the local fellowships, there in Indiana.
I know a guy here in Minney-soda who ran a CES fellowship (75 to 80 miles from me),
and did (if I recollect correct) pretty much as he pleased. No *interference* from the Indy crowd.
Soooooo --- the short of the long of it here (for me) --- is simply this.
I've always considered CES more of an online *info* outlet.
That is what I have supported, though I know that fellowships are integral to the group as well.
Hearing this latest about how individual folks are being hurt by leadership (whomever),
and it being condoned as *godly*, *prophetic*, *add-your-own-adjective-here*
truely sucks big time -- and whatever the online impact CES might have --
is not worth the hurt that one individual might suffer, from those in charge.
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Tom Strange
Dave, I understand... maybe there's a local shelter or group there in Duluth that can use your help... I know I get a sense of having helped in some way doing that.
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dmiller
Tom -- I know many folks here who need help/ money. I don't have a lot,
but (these days), I'm thinking it might be better spent here, rather than there.
Thanks -- your input is ALWAYS welcome.
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TheInvisibleDan
Just a few thoughts on CES’s “prophetic” ideas, which came to mind over the course of reading this thread.
It’s as if the leaders of CES had been gravitating toward becoming modern day Montanists (an ancient “follow the spirit” movement led by a guy named Montanus and his two prophetesses) .
Just as other “heretics” of old had been observed doing; like Simon Magus, who many here are already acquainted through Acts ch.8, which however doesn’t tell us everything about Simon.
For additional info, one needs to explore the writings of the Church Fathers, such as Tertullian and Epiphanius.
Simon attained the title of “God”, apparently in no small part by virtue of his prophetess, who accompanied him everywhere in his preaching. “Doncha know”, Simon had to maintain his connection to God, so “the Prophetess” went with him. Likewise Apelles, a former Marcionite, left that Church and started his own thing, being led about -- by a prophetess.
It’s interesting to see this still in practice today.
The prophetesses accompanying both Simon and Apelles were also said to have been regarded by both men (or as far as we know, their opponents) as no less the reincarnation of Helen of Troy - on whose account the city of Troy became demolished.
Danny
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oenophile
Radar,
Methinks you protest so much.
Up until the CC's posting of the documents, I was under the impression that CES was a warm, fuzzy, kumbiya singing TWI redux. It clearly is not. It is a vicious, venom spewing, hierarchical cult.
Instead of calling CC's act of bringing the truth of CES of light for us to view in the clear light of day devilish, perhaps it would better to remember that it wasn't until Waydale, GSC (and you in my case) pulled back the curtain on TWI that we were able to process and move on with our lives. The truth does set us free indeed.
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LornaDoone
When the hell are believers going to learn to keep the word simple. Sounds like these "false prophets" have watched too many Angel Heart & Rosemary's baby movies. They are sick sick sick.
They should all mind their own business and stay the "fxxx" out of the believers lives. You pray for and with people and then allow GOD to work. Too many cooks if you ask me. Their fruit will expose them. I was sickened by that "prophetic piece" about Elizabeth.
John should have stuck by his wife, believed her through it and told them to go "fxxx" themselves. Been there done that. Life is not perfect in any way and it does not matter what problems we encounter as believers and we get some doosies, GOD DELIVERS OUT OF THEM ALL. Sounds like they got JAL to compromise on their terms and give up on his wife.
Sick Sick Sick. Oh Lord, kick their axxes. Protect your people from these barbarians.
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dmiller
WhiteDove --- I have a copy of those 1999 *Prophetic* tapes.
John S's teaching of *Contending for the Faith* is one of the most dynamic ever recorded.
And -- may I add -- from what I undersdtood from these tapes,'
They were about prophecy in general, and had NOTHING to do with dreams.
Nor did they have anything to do with *dreamology* control over another person.
Perhaps these tapes were a *toe-in-the-water* for KAG to do her thing.
Sure sounds like it now. These tapes are something I knew about.
The *Prophetic Council* was/ is a slap in the face to me.
Someone here (I forget who), compared this to sorcery.
Wtf --- gotta agree with the analogy.
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Mike
Oh by gosh, by golly!
I sure didn’t have any foreknowledge of this at ALL!
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dmiller
Why is that? Too busy reading POWER FOR A BUNJIE-JUMPING LIVING? ;)
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GarthP2000
Ohhh my Gawd! .... He's baaaAAAACCCKKKKKKK!!!!!
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Guest socksarama
Well, minor points, reading those conference agendas, WhiteDove. Language that fits into my "words I wish I'd never heard a 1,000 times" list appear prominently. Since it's late, a rant:
Prophecy, both personal and corporate, is one of God's provisions for the Church Age, and more and more Christians are embracing prophets and "personal prophecy." With its popularity, however, have come abuses and misunderstandings, and this teaching aims to empower the listener with the keys to evaluating all forms of prophetic guidance. Armed with this knowledge, the Christian need not fear the ministry of a prophet or even false prophets, but can separate truth from error and God's voice from the human element. How to stand responsibly in regard to a prophetic word is also discussed, in order to not bring discredit to God, the ministry of a prophet, or the manifestation of prophecy. By Karen Anne Graeser.
- Corporate is a word that's become ingrained in Christian writing. I need to find out when it became popular. It's the buzzword of this decade, for sure. Corporate Christianity. Just the sound of it makes me want to open a 401K and write a Mission Statement. Every podunk religious suit can now sound stylish by adding that single word to their sermon. Dilbert, where are we when we need you!? Issue a word! (see "Prophetic Word" below)
- If being a prophet means you get "embraced" sign me up. And I mean that in the best possible way, as I promise to get no personal pleasure as the embracee, ever or at anytime. I do it for you, people. Line up, I'm here for YOU.
- Empower. I'm sure we're all fed up with being empowered. Myself, I've been so empowered so many times by so many people in so many situations that I could light up our whole city for a week. My butt glows the primary colors I'm so empowered. You can pretty much be sure - soon as someone starts working overtime to empower you, the power will quickly being to ebb out of you and into them. Again, the buzz-word of all buzz words, so ubiquitous
it's overtaken "paradigm" as The Word of the 90's, yes, it's actually changed the past. Use it or lose it. No, make that "use it and lose it".
- Prophetic word. A prophetic word. Just one, that's all I need. The Prohetic Word for today is - "Table". Don't complain - you got the word, now use it. In a sentence. One that fulfills it.
I promise to go to sleep now. G'night. :)
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socks
WOW! Speaking of Prophetic Guidance, I posted before logging in and got a field to put in a name and it posted up with that name. COOL! I had no idea that could be done. Well, go figger. Have no fear, however, all words posted as socksarama can be verified as a True Socks Post. Donations should be sent via the normal channels. Thank you!
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GrouchoMarxJr
"I left my camel filters on the TABLE"...fulfillment abounds!
I can't recall the last time I saw a thread "take off" like this one!...such passionate responses!
I think that responses from the parties involved would be appropriate...Does Karen Graeser or Elizabeth or JAL or Mark Graeser or John S have anything to say?...C'mon folks don't be bashful.
It would appear that the inner workings of this group have been exposed to the light of day and now face the scrutiny of critical examination...and that's NEVER good for a cult.
...Maybe Karen has had a dream about all of us here that she would like to share?...Personally, I think these people are nuttier than a Christmas fruitcake and am hopeful that they will post here to show why all their detractors are wrong....but then again, I doubt that they will because GreaseSpot Cafe thrives on differing opinions...which is not conducive for "dream interpreters"...
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Belle
David,
I'm sorry to give you more bad news. :( Your impression that CES is "far flung" and does not attempt to control fellowships like TWI does appears to be incorrect. I've read more than one post on that, but Galen's pretty much sums it up (excerpts posted). It sounds like a type of "loyalty letter", no? Yet one more comparison of how TWI and CES are alike, imo.
I really feel for y'all who got involved with and trusted CES.
It's got to feel even worse than learning of the betrayal, evil and ungodly secrets of TWI since it's the second time wolves have deceived the flock - and this was a group who were supposedly "keeping the baby but not the bathwater".
Since vee pee made craiggers twice-fold the child of he11 that he was, does that make these leaders four-fold the child of he11?
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doojable
Ummmmmm Groucho - don't you remember? Cockaroaches SCATTER when he lights are turned on...........
I'll be shocked and awed if these folks respond to us - they feel no obligation to us here at GSC.
In the meantime, welcome all you new folks! We made about 50 pots of coffee in antipation of your arrival. Pies and desserts are on the house for today. We'll all scoot over and let you talk - or not.
"Just please keep your feet off the TABLE." There -I used my word for the day......
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J0nny Ling0
I am sure that we are not much if even a blip on their radar screen. This place is known amongst those faithful to either TWI or serious offshoots as a place for disgruntled and bitter ExWays who congregate in order to stroke each others' hurt feelings...
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bliss
OOHHHHHHHH, "SOCKS"arama, can I get a picture of that????????????????????
(thanks for the laugh, this thread needs them)
On a serious note..........................
I 've been looking at some crystal balls to send over to KA and I couldn't decide what style she might like.
So many choices.........................ok, i made my decision.
think she'll like it????maybe it will tell her who she really is.
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outofdafog
I don't care if they ever come here and try to explain. How do you ever justify this type of hookie-pookism (I still like that word haha) and claim to still have a sound mind? Other than to fall on your knees before God and beg his forgiveness. This really is between them and God............
My main concern is for the people whose hearts once again have been left in the wreckage. Fool me once, SHAME on you, fool me TWICE shame on me............but I don't intend to shame them, I hope that some of my words can help and heal. Facing the reality is the hardest part, and thank God GSC is here for them. I think this just might "establish" things for people regarding these cults and mind control methods. That Jesus Christ is the only one between them and God. And his love is beyond our wildest expectations. We don't have to go through another man. His love and grace are sufficient.
I have not ever come to GSC to "gawk or to gossip" so please speak for youself...........not for me........and don't ever forget where you came from and the path that led you here.................
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J0nny Ling0
Yeah, that path that led us outofdafog...
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TrustAndObey
I do want to clarify something concerning their fellowships...
I can't speak for every one of them, but the few that I know they really are loosely controlled. And I do emphasize LOOSE.. It is nothing like TWI in that in TWI the TC was controlled by their BC and they had to report everything to their BC and their BC was Corps that was controlled by their LC which in turn went to the Trunk Coordinator at HQ..
In CES/STFI, they have a very decentralized fellowship and really allow the TCs (if you want to call them that) do as they please. Their only "control" would be that they are made to agree with certain rules and regulations but it's really an honor system. No one checking them out and ensuring they are doing things as they agreed. I know this first hand.. THe TCs don't check in with anyone at the home office (HQ) all the time to give updates. They actually can go under the radar for a year and CES wouldn't know a thing they did, yet CES would continue to send new people thier way. (Course the Graesers did send out their scouts last year, their 2 kids to visit all the fellowships.. Only they were kids [despite the fact his son takes after Him and enjoys the limelight. gotta watch that ego.. You too Mr Darr] who were barely wet behind the ears.
So I just wanted to clear up any misconceptions on that.
Of course, be that as it may, they teach doctrines that aren't Biblical with many ties to TWI but some their own. They teach that "God IS NOT in control, nor all knowing".. Yeah.. Ok.. Whatever... That's their fancy way of saying Don't blame God for your faults. However it says a lot more to those desire to put their trust in God.. It's like saying why trust Him, because he isn't even in control! What kind of devilish thinking is that?! Is he God or is He not?! He may not control YOU because he has given you freewill, but he sure is IN CONTROL!
Anyways.. Get on board with GOd and have him lead you to the place he desires for you filled with milk and honey in the end, or get on board with man and have him lead you to the pit. Really simple choice.
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WhiteDove
David
I agree I tried to convey that point. While not the tapes themselves I do believe that was the toe in. There were other toes also, some of them were mentioned here some not. IMHO they have clearly drifted off course. Whether they correct the compass time will tell.
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Tom Strange
That's because they don't know what a swell place this is Jonny!
If they'd just drop by for a cup of coffee or a slice of pie I'm sure they'd find it as warm and comfortable as we do... "homey comfortable"... (except you gotta keep your shoes on)
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washingtonweather
Its because they just can't handle flying piggies in real life...has to be a prophecy attached!!
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