Wow! I go away for a day and look at all the posts!
Thanks to everyone who has taken an interest. I didn't expect such a response.
I posted a new topic just for the documents so if you tell someone to check this thread out, ask them to read the documents first so they won't send the thread off topic or be unnecessarily confused.
I have to read some more to get caught up with all the posts. :-)
They should just let that organization die and be done with it. No good can come from it anymore. There's nothing to save. As I explained to someone, the word Apostasy comes to mind.
In the latter times, many will leave Christ and the doctrine, and with itching ears, go after a lot of other crap. Look at the running after Momentus. I believe these "personal prophecies" opened the door to the evil we've seen now.
I am starting to believe, just as in churches today, so too in TWI, there were quite a few who were not born again. No born again Christian could have stood by and let this go on. The fact that there needed to be a secret prophecy council - kinda reminds me of, oh, I don't know - the illuminati - these little, oh so spiritual people in their nice little inner circle. We see satan's ministers acting as religious, spiritual men in so many Christian churches. Ask yourself, where is your pastor leading you? Towards Christ and his kingdom to come, and us as new creations, thus, treat each other kindly down here? Or are you looking for devil spirits behind every rock and judging? Are you manifesting the love of God and building up or the works of the devil and tearing down?
I liked Richncripy's mind pic - children smearing s**t on each other. Except the s**t are truly evil works - they are not of God. God doesn't like his kids throwing this and smearing each other with works of evil.
I think of the verse, Lord, didn't we do this and that, etc. IN YOUR NAME???? and he says depart from me, I never knew you.
Coolwaters had it right - they have no, none whatsoever, relationship with Christ. Any Christian, any true child of God would be sickened by what they have done.
As for these dreams, yes, I have read every work of Karl Jung's, many of Freud, etc. But Jung in his exhaustive study of dreams had one thing totally correct: dreams are your mind telling you what is going on in your life under the surface. People, animals, and things in your dreams are representations of certain aspects of your own personal life. I.e., say I dream of a bully I once knew - what aspect of ME is that representing? Or there's a monster chasing me - what in my life needs to change? Anxiety manifested as a monster. That's just super simple examples. For KA to be taking these symbols - these symbolic representations - of HERSELF in her dreams, these aspects of her self, and projecting them onto this woman, and smearing others with her personal s*it and projections is unconscionable.
This is disgusting. They need to come to Christ.
Sorry for rant - I'm not crazy, just still poed about what they have done. I wonder how many others they have done this to. Let this group just wither and die.
Up until now I have not posted on the CES is in a mess thread, but this thread has me riled up.
If you do not have permission from ELIZABETH LYNN (not John Lynn, but Elizabeth Lynn---who I have never met) then you should realize that you have committed a grievous sin against her and GOD by posting these "facts" here on greasespot.
What kind of a man/woman are you to put this type of DEVILISH GARBAGE out here on the internet? I will tell you what kind of a person you are NOT.........you are NOT a person who speaks for or on behalf of the one true God.
I'm not surprised either. I don't know her, but just from this whole debacle, she seems to be a very strong woman who is not willing to allow others to get hurt or be deceived. But I couldn't stomach reading the whole thing, so I could be wrong about her and Cap'n but I do believe Paw has verified Cap'n's identity and integrity or these articles wouldn't still be at the cafe.
I am glad to hear that YOU have received permission from Elizabeth Lynn.........care to post it?
Permission or not.......my opinion of Captain Crunch remains the same, any person willing to publish this on the internet is sick. This is pornography in my opinion.
Radar
Radar, I'm not arguing with you... I will just pose this question:
How is this any different from all the posts about LCM and VPW and the goings on in TWI?
If a lot of those things hadn't been posted and talked about on the internet TWI would still have control over a lot of folks lives.
Just thinking (and before you say it, I know that's dangerous for me)
Elizabeth sent these documents to about 100 people and asked us to circulate them so other people would not be hurt. I have heard that she is happy that the word is getting out.
Up until now I have not posted on the CES is in a mess thread, but this thread has me riled up.
If you do not have permission from ELIZABETH LYNN (not John Lynn, but Elizabeth Lynn---who I have never met) then you should realize that you have committed a grievous sin against her and GOD by posting these "facts" here on greasespot.
What kind of a man/woman are you to put this type of DEVILISH GARBAGE out here on the internet? I will tell you what kind of a person you are NOT.........you are NOT a person who speaks for or on behalf of the one true God.
God forgive you.
Radar
Yeah, I see where you're coming from Radar... and I quit reading the letter to JAL a little ways into it... I see you're point there and you're right about the letter.
I guess I've focussed on the 'prophetic council' stuff and it's ridiculousness (at least to me) and not tried to look at any of the personal stuff...
I do see your point. What I did read of the letter looked to me like a rundown of all the things that they did to her (for as far as I got)... maybe that's why paw let it be put out there...
I want to make sure that you understand where I am coming from. I have never attended a CES fellowship, listened to a tape.....or spoken to John Lynn in 17 years. I have no dog in this CES thing......other than to feel very sad for all concerned, I lived thru POP at a very close level and I know how it feels to have had my life and ministry come tumbling down around me.
IN my opinion the publication of those so called prophecies and the publication of a letter from a wife to her ex husband are simply pornography. You might as well have published the doggy sex video here..........it would have received the SAME RESULTS that you wanted to get.........people coming in to gawk.....but aren't involved and don't have all the facts.......or understanding of the situation. Most people here at gspot aren't cessers.........and have little in common with that organization other than having come from the original "grandparent" cult.
You might BELIEVE that you are the angel of light and might bringing this all here.......but, in my mind and opinion, YOU ARE PART OF THE CES problem......just itching ears.
I am going to bail out of this now, I am gonna go join likeaneagle ...........NO WAY, NO HOW.....
Socks had some thoughtful stuff here (it's on page 9):
GS being the point of contact it is for so many people who visit and read, I suspect some of those people will be wondering in the next few months "what do I do now?" If a person's invested their life, time, development of their own beliefs and faith in CES they may feel as if their options are limited. They're never limited, but sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees, as they say.
My recommendation would be - if you want Christian fellowship and activities, consider finding a local church to attend. One where there is a Pastor with a reputation for having a sound marriage or relationship, who cares for the people that attend that church and who is involved in active outreach to the community. Perhaps a Pastor who participates in Mission work, travels to other locations to help Christian outreach there, building programs. In short, a church where the people speak highly of the love and care of their pastor. One who has some experience and training behind him, and who is service minded to his congregation.
Doctrine is always an issue. Doctrine will always differ, not only from church to chuch but within a church's own people. It's a simple reality that no two people ever understand or see things exactly the same. That's a good thing - diversity of understanding about the same issues and matters can help, once we get used to allowing it to exist, not as an enemy, but as a way to learn and grow, for everyone involved.
Big ticket dcctrinal items - Trinity, Heaven/Hell, the Return of Christ - a lot of doctrinal points will be different in churches that haven't come down the same path as ex-Way churches. It doesn't mean that everyone's right - everyone can't be of course. I'm suggesting to take the emphasis off of being right and putting it on fellowship and service. Emphasize meekness and humility to God and Jesus Christ, and allow for others to, in a word, LOVE you for who you are, not what you believe and to do that in turn.
Mature experienced pastoring in a church is critical. No one pastor is perfect, no one will do everything right. Meekness and humility allow for growth. A successful pastor will inevitably have learned that, and not just to "God", but to God's people.
The entire concept of "leadership" is redefined when meekness and humilty and a loving concern to help other are prominent. People find that they can live their own lives freely, quite well in fact, with that kind of pastoral presence.
It's fairly clear that permission to post has been granted. I know Paw to be very concerned with ethical/legal issues. He's obviously participating in this thread. Yet no names have been xxx'ed out. Why is that? My guess? Permission granted.
Do I know this for a fact (ie, have I seen the documentation)? No. But I know Paw's credibility enough to give him the benefit of the doubt on that.
I agree, without Elizabeth's permission to post that letter, it would be a really terrible thing to post it.
But consider: she wrote that opening letter to a general audience, so she must have at the very least anticipated that it would be made public.
Also, here's a post from Mark S detailing where he confronted the leadership six years ago:
Pawtucket asked me about the origins of CES and personal prophecy. Here is a letter that I wrote to the 3 CES leaders in Novemeber of 2000. Jeff, if you are out there you would especially benefit by reading this.
Dear John Schoenheit, John Lynn and Mark Graeser:
In an E-mail dated October 25, John Schoenheit asked me the following: “I am unclear about exactly what doctrines you think we teach in error. Please let me know.” In response to this I have written the following to all three of the CES brethren. This was originally E-Mailed to John Schoenheit on November 1, 2000.
The root cause of all doctrinal error by CES on the subject of prophecy, as I see it, is the unbiblical reasoning stemming from the phrase “eat the fish and throw away the bones” and all reasoning related to this. The context of this statement is that which was learned from and grafted into CES doctrine by Christian International out of Florida. In fact, these are the very words of their president Bill Hamon, and this phrase has been used by CES people. First of all, you and I both know that this is an unbiblical phrase. Instead I want you to be aware of the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 7:15-23.
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
New International Version
If these words are good enough for Jesus Christ to have taught his disciples when he was training and teaching them in preparation for the age of grace and receiving of the holy spirit, then why wouldn’t they be good enough for you and I? I want to especially bring your attention to the phrase, “by their fruit you will recognize them.” The bible says in Galations 5:22-23 that there are nine fruits of the spirit.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
King James Version
Since Bill Hamon, by his own words, claims to be a prophet and a trainer of aspiring prophets let’s look at the fruit of some prophets in the bible for comparison. Moses happens to be my favorite prophet in the bible, other than Jesus Christ of course, and the prophet that most people are familiar with the life of.
Num 12:3
3Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.
King James Version
Num 12:3
Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.
New International Version
Moses was not a great speaker. In fact, he had his own brother, Aaron speak for him often. The one and only quality that I know of, that separated Moses from every other man on the face of the earth was his meekness and humility. For a prophet the fruit of meekness and the heart felt attitude of humility is especially important. The reason is obvious. He has to be especially meek with God to be able to receive his Word. If he is not he could fall into all kinds of doctrinal error, unbelief and even idolatry and worship of false gods.
Jesus Christ was also known for his meekness and was especially compassionate with people.
Matt 11:29
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I (Christ) am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
The principle of meekness for receiving God’s Word is very clear for all believers regardless of their function in the body of Christ.
James 1:21
21Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
King James Version
James 3:13-18
13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.
New International Version
The above is the kind of knowledge that we should seek, and not any knowledge which is even border line puffed up or full of conceit. Didn’t we get enough of this kind of knowledge in our years in the Way Ministry where we were always bragging that our knowledge of the bible was better than everyone else and hence our ministry was better also? Didn’t this kind of pride lead to its downfall?
Prov 11:2 continues,
2When pride comes, then comes disgrace,
but with humility comes wisdom.
New International Version
Ps 25:9
9The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
King James Version
1 Peter 5:5-6
5Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
6Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
King James Version
Clearly, if we want to receive anything from God, especially His Word, we must be meek and humble for “God resisteth the proud.” This is especially true for someone who claims to be a prophet. Now I want you to look at some of the words of Bill Hamon, the man who claims to be a prophet. By your own words, this is the man from whom you are getting some of your material on prophecy as he is the president of Christian International. I ask you, are his words below the words of a man of meekness and humility or the words of someone with puffed up reasoning? Are these the words of a prophet of God or the words of a false prophet? Below are just a few samples.
Hamon explains on pages 59 and 60 of his book, “Prophets and the Prophetic Movement.”
The Prophetic movement is part of the Holy Spirit’s continuing work of bringing the Church to full restoration. The restoration of Christ’s ascension gift of a prophet is absolutely essential for God’s purpose in the Church to be accomplished.
The company of prophets will help restore the apostles back into their rightful place in the Church. The full restoration of apostles and prophets back into the Church will then bring divine order, unity, purity and maturity to the corporate Body of Christ. The saints will be equipped and activated in the supernatural power of God to be a witness and demonstration to all nations of the powerful kingdom of God. That will in turn bring about the end of this world system of humanity and Satan’s rule.
The fulfillment of all these will release Christ, who has been seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven, to return literally and set up His everlasting Kingdom over all the earth. As the prophet Daniel foretold, the stone (the Church) that was hewn out of the mountain (Christ) will continue to grow in strength and momentum like the snowball rolling down the mountain, until it hits the feet of the giant world empires, causing them to crumble and come into submission to Christ.
The above Hamon doctrine does not magnify, nor hold to, the head of the body, which is Christ and is even worse than the old Way teaching that we take the place of the absent Christ by the renewing of our minds. It implies that the Lord Jesus Christ won’t return for or gather his Church without the works and dominion of the Church, and that somehow the Church must release Christ from heaven. How arrogant and utterly false.
In his book Prophets and the Prophetic Movement, page 57 Hamon says,
In the wilderness journey the people were covered and protected by a cloud by day and warmed, enlightened and directed by a fire by night. But for the Prophetic Movement in Canaan, the Apostle is the covering and protecting cloud and the Prophet is the enlightening and directing fire. That is one reason why apostles and prophets must be restored before the Church can fulfill its predestinated end-time purpose on earth.
Also written in his book Prophets and the Prophetic Movement, page 7 it says on Oct. 1, 1953, Bill Hamon received these words of personal prophecy concerning his ministry:
“Yea, is not this the day that thou shalt go forth in His might and His Power? Have I not said in My Word Concerning My own children, “Ye are gods,” and yea in these last days ye shall go forth as gods? Thou shalt go forth as gods with power in thine hands, and minister life and faith unto those that are desolate. Yea, I say unto thee, thou shalt be a leader of leaders. Yea, thou shalt see multitudes running unto thee, for as a light upon a tall hill shalt thou be. Yea, fear shall be in the hearts of those round about thee, yet thou shalt stand as one full of courage, saith the Lord.”
No mention is made by Hamon that God was speaking derogatorily to the judges of Israel when he said “ye are gods.” Furthermore, He did not subsequently bless them with power in their hands.” In context Psalms 82:5-7 reads,
5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
King James Version
The only other usage of “ye are gods” in the old testament is Isaiah 41:23. In context, Isaiah 41:21-24 reads,
21Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. 22Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.
23Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
24Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.
King James Version
Regarding these scriptures, from the Wycliffe bible commentary it reads,
Turning now to idol-worshiping Gentiles, Jehovah challenges them to prove the reality and power of their idols by the test of prophecy and fulfillment (v. 22). His people charge these false gods with being utterly unable to fore-announce their will and purpose, through their prophets, and then carry it out.
Whoever spoke this prophecy of Bill Hamon’s early ministry above, spoke it like an in the flesh false prophet of biblical proportions. This is not something to be proud of to say the least. Neither would you expect the recipient of such a prophecy to “go forth” with anything but arrogance and false pride.
The worst part of Hamon’s teachings, however, may be his excuses for false prophecies. I understand he has over 600 pages consisting of over 150,000 words of personal prophecy concerning himself that he has collected over the years. With so much prophecy, I can understand why he needs to make excuses for inaccurate errant ones. If his original prophecy above was contrary to the Word of God, why should subsequent prophecies be any better? With so much error in doctrine and prophecies, why should you learn from him, his subordinates or associates? Couldn’t you learn from better sources or work the Word of God for yourself?
From Hamon’s book Prophets and Personal Prophecy page 158 it reads,
At the time, we must not be quick to call someone a false prophet simply because something he said was inaccurate or did not seem to apply to us. The man may be honest, righteous, and upright, yet immature in his prophesying. He may have misinterpreted what the Lord was saying.
In this case we should say that he gave an inaccurate word or a false prophecy, but we cannot properly call him a false prophet unless we can prove that the man himself is false. Missing it a few times in prophecy does not make a false prophet. No mortal prophet is infallible; all are liable to make mistakes.
Where is this in the bible? How does this compare to Deuteronomy 18:18-22?
18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" 22If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
New International Version
You asked me what doctrines do I think CES has been teaching in error. Like Bill Hamon, have you been teaching that prophecy isn't always 100 percent accurate? What about in the bible when a prophet of God says “thus says the Lord”, “thus says the Holy Spirit”, or “this is what the Lord says.” Are they speaking falsely or truly?
Allan, thanks for sharing that. If folks who have been hurt ( and administering the hurt) would've followed Wierwilles advice in this instance, think of all the trouble that would've been avoided.
All the gossip, the evil surmisings, the meddlings in peoples lives, could all have been avoided.
It was all right there in PFAL :) (aka "mind your own business")
Yeah Oldiesman...and we all followed "doctor" cuz of what he said God told him.
Funny, I see no difference here.
Except no snow on the pumps.
followed Wierwilles advice in this instance, think of all the trouble that would've been avoided
Yeah, no difference.
Either they back peddle, ignore or change the 'revelation'.
And selectively following advice from one who has his tombstone-
'I Wish I Were The Man I knew To Be'
What a loser, if he knew to be it, then he could.
But he didn't cause he wanted his own way and not God's.
Every organizatiuon will have problems. What matters is not if they have a problem but how they correct them.
I don't mean to sound flip, but come on. A problem is when an organization's postage machine runs out of postage. This personal prophecy crap isn't just a "problem"; it's a disaster of epic proportions, and IMO it's a symptom of a deep-rooted spiritual deception. What a sad situation.
This doctrine can't be corrected. It needs to be uprooted and tossed in the incinerator, as far as I'm concerned. I can only hope and pray that those who are ensnared in this foolishness will somehow wake up and see daylignt.
I am pretty sure she is ex-TWI. She was a good friend of Karen Anne Graeser's in Florida
What's this "deliverance session? How's it set up or what's the procedure? How is this based on scripture?
I haven't experienced a "deliverance session." Dan Gallagher is the specialist in this. I hope he posts a description. Many churches have deliverance ministries.
Do they teach on grace, love, and forgiveness anymore? Or just this stuff?
Yes, take a look at TruthVSTradition.com to see the variety of subjects they teach on. This prophesy council/dreams stuff is a blot. I hope to see public repentance for it from all who are convicted by the Lord.
II Tim 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all [men], as theirs also was.
Come on you CES principals. I know you're reading this. Post a defense. Be brave. Afraid of a little flame?
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
My conscience is stirred to make the hidden things known so the guilty will repent and receive mercy.
Radar, you wrote...."it would have received the SAME RESULTS that you wanted to get.........people coming in to gawk.....but aren't involved and don't have all the facts.......or understanding of the situation. Most people here at gspot aren't cessers.........and have little in common with that organization other than having come from the original "grandparent" cult."
I see you 'lived through pop' with many of us. I guess you never had people tell you not only what you think but what kind of person you are or are not. Most everyone I knew in TWI did. So it seems odd to me that these many years later you would think you should tell CC (someone whom you've never met) what he thinks ["the same results that you wanted to get"] and what kind of person he is not, which I won't even quote. Be that as it may, I am praising God for the results I personally know of that actually are occurring from this thread....in.....what, 3 days?!
More and more CESers are learning about and reading this thread, and it exposes evil to them so they can make a decision whether to stand with or depart from CES. That, Radar, has been my personal prayer for years and years since seeing what CES leadership's unsound thinking did to people I love.
CES cult-members are getting to hear from people outside their cult!
That, thank You Lord, is how they just might begin to WAKE UP! And that is the result I want, and the reason I came here. I'd never been to GSC before but heard that Elizabeth's 'side of the story' and KA's 'prophecies' were here. I knew that those 'prophecies' had been for years kept secret under extraordinarily unloving duress, so I jumped into the learning curve to get on GSC.
I think each believer here has been superb in his posts. I see compassion, empathy, courage, peacemaking, wisdom, tenderness and humility...in general, I see God's love in action! No one has spewed out prideful pronouncements that we've all been party to receiving from 'leadership' in our Cult-of-choice. (Well, no one before you, that is, Radar. But since I'm a newbie maybe your regular GSCers don't define your post as spewing and it felt that way only to me....so please don't take everyone's time to reprove me for that observation, OK? The rest of what I'm writing is what is important.)
Anyway, I'm very thankful to ALL of you GSCers here, more especially if you're not involved with CES, for so obviously caring about your brothers and sisters who are...all of them, from the leadership to the newbie. I tip my hat to all of you.
I also praise God for CC's boldness to publicize --a bit-- of what CES leadership has diligently hidden from CES 'membership'. I like your idea, Garth, of getting out as much of what is true as possible. Of course much of Elizabeth's letter is personal and I shouldn't have had to hear it. In a perfect world it wouldn't have needed to be written, but this is not a perfect world and we have a very personal enemy. I, for one, am grateful to learn not only from Elizabeth's letters, but also from other articles/books written by other people who have escaped from other cults. It's info that helps me more quickly discern good from evil so I can cleave to the one, eschew the other and share with those who can teach others also. Now, Radar, learning from ex-cult members is something most GSCers do have in common, isn't it?
Geez...I've been away from the cafe for awhile and now there's too much reading to catch up on.
I remember John Lynn coming to the house of some ex-twi friends of ours back in the early 90's, and around that time he/they were getting into personal prophecies and momentus and the like. It smelled like crap to me then, and it still smells like crap to me now. Why? Because it's crap. How did I get so spiritually perceptive? Oh, I dunno...maybe I just happen to think that anyone who was any level of leadership in twi should have to go out in the real world and get a real job and earn his own money honestly. Oh, and while you're at it...don't get all up in someone else's business. Freakin' dream-reading control freaks. Good God, people...put your hands on your wallets and run as far and as fast as you can from anyone who tries to charge you for "a closer walk with thee".
I don't mean to sound flip, but come on. A problem is when an organization's postage machine runs out of postage. This personal prophecy crap isn't just a "problem"; it's a disaster of epic proportions, and IMO it's a symptom of a deep-rooted spiritual deception. What a sad situation.
Agreed, but what strikes me is, that in TWI, and now apparently in CES, minor problems among the common folk were said to have deep spiritual origins and were gone over ad nauseum, while glaring errors by leadership were glossed over. Straining the gnat and swallowing the camel, as it were.
I love your analogy, as I now work for a company with a million-dollar budget, and among other things, I put the money in the postage machine! And "problems" that really affect the function of the organization are discussed and solved with respect, trust, and humor, not the backbiting and melodrama displayed at the upper eschelons of CES.
I am curious as to what ticked off KAG to want to go after Elizabeth. If I had to hazard a guess (and only a guess, mind you), I am thinking that perhaps E. was not silent about what she was seeing at the leadership level. She didn't take on the Mrs. Wierwille persona. And leadership (ready to make molehills into mountains) got pi**ed.
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Captain Crunch
Wow! I go away for a day and look at all the posts!
Thanks to everyone who has taken an interest. I didn't expect such a response.
I posted a new topic just for the documents so if you tell someone to check this thread out, ask them to read the documents first so they won't send the thread off topic or be unnecessarily confused.
I have to read some more to get caught up with all the posts. :-)
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Sunesis
They should just let that organization die and be done with it. No good can come from it anymore. There's nothing to save. As I explained to someone, the word Apostasy comes to mind.
In the latter times, many will leave Christ and the doctrine, and with itching ears, go after a lot of other crap. Look at the running after Momentus. I believe these "personal prophecies" opened the door to the evil we've seen now.
I am starting to believe, just as in churches today, so too in TWI, there were quite a few who were not born again. No born again Christian could have stood by and let this go on. The fact that there needed to be a secret prophecy council - kinda reminds me of, oh, I don't know - the illuminati - these little, oh so spiritual people in their nice little inner circle. We see satan's ministers acting as religious, spiritual men in so many Christian churches. Ask yourself, where is your pastor leading you? Towards Christ and his kingdom to come, and us as new creations, thus, treat each other kindly down here? Or are you looking for devil spirits behind every rock and judging? Are you manifesting the love of God and building up or the works of the devil and tearing down?
I liked Richncripy's mind pic - children smearing s**t on each other. Except the s**t are truly evil works - they are not of God. God doesn't like his kids throwing this and smearing each other with works of evil.
I think of the verse, Lord, didn't we do this and that, etc. IN YOUR NAME???? and he says depart from me, I never knew you.
Coolwaters had it right - they have no, none whatsoever, relationship with Christ. Any Christian, any true child of God would be sickened by what they have done.
As for these dreams, yes, I have read every work of Karl Jung's, many of Freud, etc. But Jung in his exhaustive study of dreams had one thing totally correct: dreams are your mind telling you what is going on in your life under the surface. People, animals, and things in your dreams are representations of certain aspects of your own personal life. I.e., say I dream of a bully I once knew - what aspect of ME is that representing? Or there's a monster chasing me - what in my life needs to change? Anxiety manifested as a monster. That's just super simple examples. For KA to be taking these symbols - these symbolic representations - of HERSELF in her dreams, these aspects of her self, and projecting them onto this woman, and smearing others with her personal s*it and projections is unconscionable.
This is disgusting. They need to come to Christ.
Sorry for rant - I'm not crazy, just still poed about what they have done. I wonder how many others they have done this to. Let this group just wither and die.
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Radar OReilly
Captain Crunch,
Up until now I have not posted on the CES is in a mess thread, but this thread has me riled up.
If you do not have permission from ELIZABETH LYNN (not John Lynn, but Elizabeth Lynn---who I have never met) then you should realize that you have committed a grievous sin against her and GOD by posting these "facts" here on greasespot.
What kind of a man/woman are you to put this type of DEVILISH GARBAGE out here on the internet? I will tell you what kind of a person you are NOT.........you are NOT a person who speaks for or on behalf of the one true God.
God forgive you.
Radar
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Belle
He has permission from Elizabeth to post this.... Capn's Post about having permission
I'm not surprised either. I don't know her, but just from this whole debacle, she seems to be a very strong woman who is not willing to allow others to get hurt or be deceived. But I couldn't stomach reading the whole thing, so I could be wrong about her and Cap'n but I do believe Paw has verified Cap'n's identity and integrity or these articles wouldn't still be at the cafe.
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pawtucket
Radar,
I wouldn't have allowed it, if permission hadn't been granted.
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ChasUFarley
My questions are based on the documents you presented.
Is your response directed at all of us? Or someone specifically?
Please clarify.
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likeaneagle
this explains why they are in CRISIS...Im not speaking of the docs either...
Please dont invite me to a fellowship..im a runnin!!
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Tom Strange
Radar, I'm not arguing with you... I will just pose this question:
How is this any different from all the posts about LCM and VPW and the goings on in TWI?
If a lot of those things hadn't been posted and talked about on the internet TWI would still have control over a lot of folks lives.
Just thinking (and before you say it, I know that's dangerous for me)
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Captain Crunch
Radar and any one else that is concerned -
Elizabeth sent these documents to about 100 people and asked us to circulate them so other people would not be hurt. I have heard that she is happy that the word is getting out.
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Tom Strange
Yeah, I see where you're coming from Radar... and I quit reading the letter to JAL a little ways into it... I see you're point there and you're right about the letter.
I guess I've focussed on the 'prophetic council' stuff and it's ridiculousness (at least to me) and not tried to look at any of the personal stuff...
I do see your point. What I did read of the letter looked to me like a rundown of all the things that they did to her (for as far as I got)... maybe that's why paw let it be put out there...
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Radar OReilly
Captain Crunch, et al.........
I want to make sure that you understand where I am coming from. I have never attended a CES fellowship, listened to a tape.....or spoken to John Lynn in 17 years. I have no dog in this CES thing......other than to feel very sad for all concerned, I lived thru POP at a very close level and I know how it feels to have had my life and ministry come tumbling down around me.
IN my opinion the publication of those so called prophecies and the publication of a letter from a wife to her ex husband are simply pornography. You might as well have published the doggy sex video here..........it would have received the SAME RESULTS that you wanted to get.........people coming in to gawk.....but aren't involved and don't have all the facts.......or understanding of the situation. Most people here at gspot aren't cessers.........and have little in common with that organization other than having come from the original "grandparent" cult.
You might BELIEVE that you are the angel of light and might bringing this all here.......but, in my mind and opinion, YOU ARE PART OF THE CES problem......just itching ears.
I am going to bail out of this now, I am gonna go join likeaneagle ...........NO WAY, NO HOW.....
NO CHURCH WITH YOU.
Radar
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Captain Crunch
Thanks Jeff for posting everyone's email addresses.
You missed Mark's - mark@stfonline.org
and the Resner's - my guess is tom@stfonline.org
Email today and you, too, can get your email address blocked
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Tom Strange
Socks had some thoughtful stuff here (it's on page 9):
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Raf
It's fairly clear that permission to post has been granted. I know Paw to be very concerned with ethical/legal issues. He's obviously participating in this thread. Yet no names have been xxx'ed out. Why is that? My guess? Permission granted.
Do I know this for a fact (ie, have I seen the documentation)? No. But I know Paw's credibility enough to give him the benefit of the doubt on that.
I agree, without Elizabeth's permission to post that letter, it would be a really terrible thing to post it.
But consider: she wrote that opening letter to a general audience, so she must have at the very least anticipated that it would be made public.
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Tom Strange
Also, here's a post from Mark S detailing where he confronted the leadership six years ago:
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cman
Yeah Oldiesman...and we all followed "doctor" cuz of what he said God told him.
Funny, I see no difference here.
Except no snow on the pumps.
Yeah, no difference.
Either they back peddle, ignore or change the 'revelation'.
And selectively following advice from one who has his tombstone-
'I Wish I Were The Man I knew To Be'
What a loser, if he knew to be it, then he could.
But he didn't cause he wanted his own way and not God's.
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Linda Z
Joeoday said:
I don't mean to sound flip, but come on. A problem is when an organization's postage machine runs out of postage. This personal prophecy crap isn't just a "problem"; it's a disaster of epic proportions, and IMO it's a symptom of a deep-rooted spiritual deception. What a sad situation.
This doctrine can't be corrected. It needs to be uprooted and tossed in the incinerator, as far as I'm concerned. I can only hope and pray that those who are ensnared in this foolishness will somehow wake up and see daylignt.
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Captain Crunch
ChasUFarley asked:
What's Elizabeth's background?
I am pretty sure she is ex-TWI. She was a good friend of Karen Anne Graeser's in Florida
What's this "deliverance session? How's it set up or what's the procedure? How is this based on scripture?
I haven't experienced a "deliverance session." Dan Gallagher is the specialist in this. I hope he posts a description. Many churches have deliverance ministries.
Do they teach on grace, love, and forgiveness anymore? Or just this stuff?
Yes, take a look at TruthVSTradition.com to see the variety of subjects they teach on. This prophesy council/dreams stuff is a blot. I hope to see public repentance for it from all who are convicted by the Lord.
II Tim 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all [men], as theirs also was.
Come on you CES principals. I know you're reading this. Post a defense. Be brave. Afraid of a little flame?
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Captain Crunch
According to Paul...
II Cr 4:2-3
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
My conscience is stirred to make the hidden things known so the guilty will repent and receive mercy.
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washingtonweather
Frankly these prophecies sound and read like drug induced hallucinations....and from what has come from them --clearly there is nothing godly
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CoolWaters
Oh lawd gawd awmighty puhleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzeeeeeeeeee let's just let this get swept up under CES's BOD and KEEP IT ALL PRIVATE.
Yeah...
That's the ticket...
While we're at it, let's close down GSC...
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therebutforgrace
Radar, you wrote...."it would have received the SAME RESULTS that you wanted to get.........people coming in to gawk.....but aren't involved and don't have all the facts.......or understanding of the situation. Most people here at gspot aren't cessers.........and have little in common with that organization other than having come from the original "grandparent" cult."
I see you 'lived through pop' with many of us. I guess you never had people tell you not only what you think but what kind of person you are or are not. Most everyone I knew in TWI did. So it seems odd to me that these many years later you would think you should tell CC (someone whom you've never met) what he thinks ["the same results that you wanted to get"] and what kind of person he is not, which I won't even quote. Be that as it may, I am praising God for the results I personally know of that actually are occurring from this thread....in.....what, 3 days?!
More and more CESers are learning about and reading this thread, and it exposes evil to them so they can make a decision whether to stand with or depart from CES. That, Radar, has been my personal prayer for years and years since seeing what CES leadership's unsound thinking did to people I love.
CES cult-members are getting to hear from people outside their cult!
That, thank You Lord, is how they just might begin to WAKE UP! And that is the result I want, and the reason I came here. I'd never been to GSC before but heard that Elizabeth's 'side of the story' and KA's 'prophecies' were here. I knew that those 'prophecies' had been for years kept secret under extraordinarily unloving duress, so I jumped into the learning curve to get on GSC.
I think each believer here has been superb in his posts. I see compassion, empathy, courage, peacemaking, wisdom, tenderness and humility...in general, I see God's love in action! No one has spewed out prideful pronouncements that we've all been party to receiving from 'leadership' in our Cult-of-choice. (Well, no one before you, that is, Radar. But since I'm a newbie maybe your regular GSCers don't define your post as spewing and it felt that way only to me....so please don't take everyone's time to reprove me for that observation, OK? The rest of what I'm writing is what is important.)
Anyway, I'm very thankful to ALL of you GSCers here, more especially if you're not involved with CES, for so obviously caring about your brothers and sisters who are...all of them, from the leadership to the newbie. I tip my hat to all of you.
I also praise God for CC's boldness to publicize --a bit-- of what CES leadership has diligently hidden from CES 'membership'. I like your idea, Garth, of getting out as much of what is true as possible. Of course much of Elizabeth's letter is personal and I shouldn't have had to hear it. In a perfect world it wouldn't have needed to be written, but this is not a perfect world and we have a very personal enemy. I, for one, am grateful to learn not only from Elizabeth's letters, but also from other articles/books written by other people who have escaped from other cults. It's info that helps me more quickly discern good from evil so I can cleave to the one, eschew the other and share with those who can teach others also. Now, Radar, learning from ex-cult members is something most GSCers do have in common, isn't it?
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tonto
Geez...I've been away from the cafe for awhile and now there's too much reading to catch up on.
I remember John Lynn coming to the house of some ex-twi friends of ours back in the early 90's, and around that time he/they were getting into personal prophecies and momentus and the like. It smelled like crap to me then, and it still smells like crap to me now. Why? Because it's crap. How did I get so spiritually perceptive? Oh, I dunno...maybe I just happen to think that anyone who was any level of leadership in twi should have to go out in the real world and get a real job and earn his own money honestly. Oh, and while you're at it...don't get all up in someone else's business. Freakin' dream-reading control freaks. Good God, people...put your hands on your wallets and run as far and as fast as you can from anyone who tries to charge you for "a closer walk with thee".
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shazdancer
From Linda Z...
Agreed, but what strikes me is, that in TWI, and now apparently in CES, minor problems among the common folk were said to have deep spiritual origins and were gone over ad nauseum, while glaring errors by leadership were glossed over. Straining the gnat and swallowing the camel, as it were.I love your analogy, as I now work for a company with a million-dollar budget, and among other things, I put the money in the postage machine! And "problems" that really affect the function of the organization are discussed and solved with respect, trust, and humor, not the backbiting and melodrama displayed at the upper eschelons of CES.
I am curious as to what ticked off KAG to want to go after Elizabeth. If I had to hazard a guess (and only a guess, mind you), I am thinking that perhaps E. was not silent about what she was seeing at the leadership level. She didn't take on the Mrs. Wierwille persona. And leadership (ready to make molehills into mountains) got pi**ed.
Praying for you guys, and for her,
Shaz
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