CES is in a Mess...

[caribousam]

My point being, you don't blame the sheep for being sheep. The resposibility for the safety of the flock is the shepard's responsibility.

Brambe,

Yes well people aren't sheep in all ways...don;t take the analogy past where it was meant to go.

Believers should be responsible and accountable whether they are in leadership positions or not.

I received both in the mail today. ;)

I got the Sower as well, So John S. is definitely the new prez.

[caribousam]

Carribousam, might I respectfully suggest that you might be unaware of the evil precedeing the mid 80s? You would have to I guess in order to believe that twi was healthy before that.

I was there, I have friends that were there. We had horrible things done to us in the name of God.

There are a lot of folks who assume that because they didn`t see the depravity that later engulfed the ministry early that it was non existant. It was there, just a better kept secret is all.

hey rascal.

I would like to know about that stuff. Maybe this forum is a good place to talk about it if u wish.

I was involved from late 70's to mid 80's...I always had lots of questions and didn;t always fit

in well. But I met Jesus, and grew up quite a bit...so it wan;t all bad for me...mostly good.

I did sort of perceive some sort of unhealthy spirit of lust in Way Corps and other leaders...

which is probably why I never got very close to them...

I was and am far from perfect but at least I've avoided a lot of the traps related to being

a participant in a Christian organization.

[rascal]

Well what particualarly would you like to hear about? The face meltings, the children that were treated visciously in the family corpes? The ones that were raped on the field by twi leadership? The teenaged girls that were drugged and raped on the motor coach? The forced abortions? The savaging of character and accusations of possession when they thought a woman might tell so that no one would listen to her? The men and women who were driven to suicide? Do you want to know about vpw exclusively or would you like LCM`s antics as well?

There was a thread, you can do a search here about suicide in the way that covered a lot of this.

There is a thread about forced abortions, there is also a thread anout child abuse in the way.

There is also a web sight called messiah 7 that contains many similar stories.

I can give you a blow by blow description here, but it would be redundant and the stories related in these folks own words are so much more powerfull than I can relate second hand. I know many of the people who related their experiences, some are my own.

Sam, it was rotten all the way up to vpw. I am so sorry to have to tell you that. It will be a very difficult read to discover what these men did to our dear brothers and sisters in Christ.

You would not have seen these things unless you were close to the inner circle, the *enlightened ones*...those deemed spiritually mature enough to handle the drugs and sex. You know, all things being lawfull to them which are in Christ..etc

There were whole teachings about how it was a womans duty to serve a man of God, married or not ..meet his needs in every form, so that he could better serve the body of Christ. There were teachings about why it was necessary to abort our childen, there were teachings about why it was ok to destroy a persons credibility when it came to protecting a man of God`s reputation.

It will sicken you to read what these men did, these men we trusted to be honorable and as pure in heart as we were.

I do not believe that we can trust men such as these, or their take on the scriptures. Sure God worked, in spite of the evil, just like he does in mormon, catholic, baptist, methodist, whatever lable you pin on yourself.

It would seem that he works within whatever parameters we allow. I believe that he worked in our lives in SPITE of what happened in twi.

[therebutforgrace]

Sadly, that was a very good post, rascal. Accurate, but more than that, wisely written with the love of God in your heart very obvious in the writing.

CaribouSam, et al.....Since the guys in CES still need lots of help seeing all of their own mess (and that's what this thread can help them do), let's not derail this thread with TWI messes.

That said.....how the CES mess compares to TWI's mess IS pertinent....and in fact could be a new thread idea in this forum.

[rascal]

Thank you tbfg. Sam, what I said in the above post is a hell of a lot to digest at once. Please feel free to ask me details of what particular account that you wish.

I know that it seemed good, the word taught was wonderfull, but do you realise that the class was lidted damned near verbatumm from a man who WAS a spiritual giant?

See the BG Leanard threads. VP for years searched out teachers that would make what HE wanted to believe ok. He took BG`s class and taught it himself a month later under the name of pfal. Whole sections of bg`s books were lifted and republished in vp`s books.... It has been researched, there was no snow storms when he supposedly got snowed in in tulsa.

Our basic foundation seems to have been what was profitable and good. It is why we later dismissed the inconsistancies we would see in leadership and practice.

The class was used a s a springboard into what vpw wanted to be ok.

There is so much to be learned, it is heartbreaking and sould crushing to realise that people could teach such powerfull scriptures in public and yet be so vilely evil in their personal life.

It is a lot to digest. Please feel free to question me closer on any of the above information as it becomes pertinant to you in your quest for what honestly happened.

[rascal]

There is an awfull lot of information that needs to be examined point by point. I am trying to cover way to much ground in a single sitting here. At first glance it all seems outragious and impossible. Each of the things that I mentioned above however, can and have been verified by numerous first person accounts.

It would probably be good if you took it issue by issue, I will try to help wherever I can.

I think that it is relevent to this thread, because it explains how ces could have gotten in such a mess in the first place. The foundation that it was built upon is shakey and needs to be examined carefully for cracks and flaws.

If on examination, you find it to be solid, you then can have confidence in repairing the structural flaws of what has been built upon that foundation.

Edited March 12, 2007 by rascal

[caribousam]

There is an awfull lot of information that needs to be examined point by point. I am trying to cover way to much ground in a single sitting here. At first glance it all seems outragious and impossible. Each of the things that I mentioned above however, can and have been verified by numerous first person accounts.

It would probably be good if you took it issue by issue, I will try to help wherever I can.

I think that it is relevent to this thread, because it explains how ces could have gotten in such a mess in the first place. The foundation that it was built upon is shakey and needs to be examined carefully for cracks and flaws.

If on examination, you find it to be solid, you then can have confidence in repairing the structural flaws of what has been built upon that foundation.

Hi rascal,

I've heard many very sad, disgusting, and cruel stories about TWI. From yourself and many others

in face to face conversations and other dialogue.

Many CES founders and board members were certainly influenced in some way by all of this. One

would think that they might try extra hard to avoid TWI type debacles. But it does make one consider

that CES leaders who were leaders in TWI should be thoroughly "examined."

Not to say that we condemn them, but due diligence seems very important in

examining the credentials of Christians in positions of organizational leadership.

CS

[rich]

there were teachings about why it was ok to destroy a persons credibility when it came to protecting a man of God`s reputation.

It will sicken you to read what these men did, these men we trusted to be honorable and as pure in heart as we were.

I do not believe that we can trust men such as these, or their take on the scriptures. Sure God worked, in spite of the evil, just like he does in mormon, catholic, baptist, methodist, whatever lable you pin on yourself.

It would seem that he works within whatever parameters we allow. I believe that he worked in our lives in SPITE of what happened in twi.

Looking at this one section relates to ces in my mind.

I have read a resent letter written by some one who was extremly detailed about the experience they had with ces leadership and spouses. They were responded to in a very how dare you way and basicly accused of writting mostly false accounts. When i read the letter I could relate, (not to the personal individual incidents. I wasn't there when they happened)

but the attitude of these leaders and the experience that this person had with them was a match for what i have personally seen and even said to them. I have even been told directly by other people who had the same experience way before this person ever got envoled or thought about trying to open thier eyes.. But the rsponse was to dis this person as not being credable. counting them as not counting. Then being told they are hurt by what was written. Lets condem this person and maybe they will go away.

They don't seem able to see the truth no matter how many times it is spelled out and set before them. This tells me that they therfore can't speak the truth either.

Your statement about destroying persons credibility lives on in all of them.

I don't get them owning up to anything. I do get them trying to be a goat blending in with the sheep.

I read the truth of what I saw in that letter and then the. your not good enough crap and your a sinner as a response .

Makes me very angry that another is pushed aside to protect thier lies.

To you at ces. Please read all the letters that those who have left have written you, again. Maybe you missed something. I hope you weren't so arogant that you threw then out.

To you who haven't spoken up or written, if you think you're too small to make a differance, try slepping in a room with an active mosquito.

Lets start a thread called letters to ces. i'd do it but i'm not sure how to do it. I WILL POST MY STORY WITH THE BOYS ON IT. it will take a while to write, please don't wait for me.

Liv'en in His grace

R

[caribousam]

there were teachings about why it was ok to destroy a persons credibility when it came to protecting a man of God`s reputation.

It will sicken you to read what these men did, these men we trusted to be honorable and as pure in heart as we were.

I do not believe that we can trust men such as these, or their take on the scriptures. Sure God worked, in spite of the evil, just like he does in mormon, catholic, baptist, methodist, whatever lable you pin on yourself.

It would seem that he works within whatever parameters we allow. I believe that he worked in our lives in SPITE of what happened in twi.

Looking at this one section relates to ces in my mind.

I have read a resent letter written by some one who was extremly detailed about the experience they had with ces leadership and spouses. They were responded to in a very how dare you way and basicly accused of writting mostly false accounts. When i read the letter I could relate, (not to the personal individual incidents. I wasn't there when they happened)

but the attitude of these leaders and the experience that this person had with them was a match for what i have personally seen and even said to them. I have even been told directly by other people who had the same experience way before this person ever got envoled or thought about trying to open thier eyes.. But the rsponse was to dis this person as not being credable. counting them as not counting. Then being told they are hurt by what was written. Lets condem this person and maybe they will go away.

They don't seem able to see the truth no matter how many times it is spelled out and set before them. This tells me that they therfore can't speak the truth either.

Your statement about destroying persons credibility lives on in all of them.

I don't get them owning up to anything. I do get them trying to be a goat blending in with the sheep.

I read the truth of what I saw in that letter and then the. your not good enough crap and your a sinner as a response .

Makes me very angry that another is pushed aside to protect thier lies.

To you at ces. Please read all the letters that those who have left have written you, again. Maybe you missed something. I hope you weren't so arogant that you threw then out.

To you who haven't spoken up or written, if you think you're too small to make a differance, try slepping in a room with an active mosquito.

Lets start a thread called letters to ces. i'd do it but i'm not sure how to do it. I WILL POST MY STORY WITH THE BOYS ON IT. it will take a while to write, please don't wait for me.

Liv'en in His grace

R

Hey rich, how are things going?

The outlook doesn't look bright for CES. Maybe things can be fixed. Maybe not. If leadership would've just been more

open and honest about things, things may have been worked through in a much better way.

-CS

Sadly, that was a very good post, rascal. Accurate, but more than that, wisely written with the love of God in your heart very obvious in the writing.

CaribouSam, et al.....Since the guys in CES still need lots of help seeing all of their own mess (and that's what this thread can help them do), let's not derail this thread with TWI messes.

That said.....how the CES mess compares to TWI's mess IS pertinent....and in fact could be a new thread idea in this forum.

yep, I think there are probably some common threads that worked evil in both groups. It would be good

to understand what they are.

[rich]

Hey rich, how are things going?

The outlook doesn't look bright for CES. Maybe things can be fixed. Maybe not. If leadership would've just been more

open and honest about things, things may have been worked through in a much better way.

-CS

yep, I think there are probably some common threads that worked evil in both groups. It would be good

to understand what they are.

Hay Sam

Saw a movie a couple of weeks ago and they had a saying, lets see if i can remember it right.

We get to choose the choices we make or the choices others make will choose us.

Have a great day

R

Edited March 14, 2007 by rich

[TrustAndObey]

Just reminds me more and more of Samuel.. Growing up and being personally trained by Eli.. God can work in any situation, and usually must since the world is full of evil.. And most godly groups start out with a right motive, but sooner or later, their men, make mistakes, and the evil takes over. That's why we don't put our trust in men!

[Estimated Prophet]

I had the honor of dining with Brother Leonard and Sister Evelyn a dozen years ago.

Sister Evelyn told me , with all seriousness, that the problem with The Way began when they let VPW get away with taking notes at B.G.'s class in 1955.

It allowed him to think he could break the rules when he wanted,

and to lean on his flesh rather than the spirit of God.

Edited March 15, 2007 by Estimated Prophet

[rascal]

Interesting EP, I always wondered what the leonards thought about vp/twi. I`d say though, that I believe that the problems began with vp long before that. I`ll bet they didn`t know that vp was thrown out of the church he pastored for sexual improprieties. From all accounts he was immoral from the very beginning. His research and quest to me seemed geared more towards finding scriptural and doctrinal support for doing what he damned well pleased...shrug

[WordWolf]

Interesting EP, I always wondered what the leonards thought about vp/twi. I`d say though, that I believe that the problems began with vp long before that. I`ll bet they didn`t know that vp was thrown out of the church he pastored for sexual improprieties. From all accounts he was immoral from the very beginning. His research and quest to me seemed geared more towards finding scriptural and doctrinal support for doing what he damned well pleased...shrug

You mean like when he told JD how God was ok with orgies, and used Scripture to rationalize it?

I bet EP missed each time we discussed it so far...

[sprawled out]

Sister Evelyn told me , with all seriousness, that the problem with The Way began when they let VPW get away with taking notes at B.G.'s class in 1955.

i LOVE this! remember how adamant they/we were about note-taking during pfal? "it's all in the syllabus," they'd say. i had a HUGE fight with my first class instructor about that very thing. HA! and i never had the slightest intention of ripping it off, like pp, i mean, vp did. (that two-faced @#$%^&!)

[Estimated Prophet]

BG was enforcing his copy rights with a passion when I met him, and I think I know why.

He called the plagerism of his books "one terrible and continuing sinful practise" and a "diabolical disgrace."

You can still buy his books.

Go to http://www.ctcoftexas.com/ if you are interseted.

He used to be one of the Royal Canadien Mounted Police in the early 1900's as I recall.

He hunted down real bad guys like in the movies.

Not a man to be trifled with.

I understand VP met him as he was throwing ( phyisically) someone out of his class for falling asleep.

He was not one to tolerate "screwballism"

What I remember most about my day with him was how he cupped his ear and leaned in to hear better the manifestations of the holy spirit,

almost standing on his toes, with such a joy and energy.

He was 90 years old at that time,

but you could see his heart leap when he was hearing the Word of God.

A Man with a Ministry.

[caribousam]

Hay Sam

Saw a movie a couple of weeks ago and they had a saying, lets see if i can remember it right.

We get to choose the choices we make or the choices others make will choose us.

Have a great day

R

Hey rich,

Yep good saying...Yesterday's storm here was brutal...shoveling 6 inches of heavy slushy snow and

ice was backbreaking....a great workout which I'm still recovering from !!! Spring is around the corner

CS