Forgive my inability to construct this next question to agree with everyone's theology...give me a bit of latitude here.....
[K2K - Not only latitude, but longitude as well ]
If God has placed His call for ministry into your heart should you "put your heart somewhere else for awhile" without His telling you to?
Frankly, if I had been part of not one, but two (or maybe more?) organizations whose "noble intentions" had turned so quickly to s--t, I would start to question if I was correctly interpreting how God wanted me to minister.
Maybe biblical research, teaching and fellowship is not the genuine calling of these folks.
When a building you design and build keeps collapsing, you not only examine it for structural integrity, you call in other experts to check your work - unless you really believe you have an insight to engineering that has not been known since the first century.
I'm not meaning to be coy here but, if you soak a baby in bathwater long enough - well there's a lot of baby to be found in that bathwater - and it won't be pretty.
mmmmmm...baby soup!
There are times when you leave the cliches behind and just face facts. My new way of thinking is that as soon as you get man involved in God's plan, man will start trying to change that plan to look more like his own.
I'm more of the opinion that any "church" needs to be a very loose affiliation of people and not a giant organizational money making machine. Ministers should keep their day jobs until they absolutely cannot do both - and really even then they should keep their day jobs.
Whenever you try to set up a "church" you get a cart leading a horse - a lifeless thing leading a living thing. And both will keep bumping into each other.
I'm rambling here. Maybe someone like sprawled or Groucho can make some sense of my insanity.....
Help me out here guys....please
doesn't look like you need any help to me, dooj.
If God has placed His call for ministry into your heart should you "put your heart somewhere else for awhile" without His telling you to?
YES! in part because i don't think these guys even KNOW what's in their hearts. they never stopped to look. they just tumbled from twi into ces and rode the snowball. so YES, i think they should just get out of the "minister" business for a while. if not forever. it's painfully clear that, even with all their experience, and the benefit of all that hindsight, they SUCK at it.
If God has placed His call for ministry into your heart should you "put your heart somewhere else for awhile" without His telling you to?
If he was telling you, put the desire there, that is one thing. If it is what somebody thinks THEY want to do, it may be a very different matter.
A lot of people leaving der vey thought that it was the lord's will that they continue the path that they were on. I think that is a little presumptuous.
For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow,
and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
If he was telling you, put the desire there, that is one thing.
If it is what somebody thinks THEY want to do, it may be a very different matter.
A lot of people leaving der vey thought that it was the lord's will that they continue the path
that they were on. I think that is a little presumptuous.
Not trying to be antagonistic or anything -- however ---
while you acknowledge Rev from the Father,
you also (seem) to denigrate those who try to do so.
Perhaps the above verse from Hebrews, should read ---
For the word of God HAM [is] quick, and powerful,
and sharper than any two edged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow,
and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart
For what it is worth -- I can appreciate your skeptical outlook.
You're entitled to it. But you're not adding a thing to the discussion here.
As I've said -- I've supported CES, but now they are in the *balances*,
as far as I am concerned.
If you can offer some substantive evidence for what you say --- I'll listen.
So far -- I see (and smell), nothing but SMOKE.
You said in this quote ---
name='Mr. Hammeroni' date='Feb 22 2007, 02:05 PM' post='309832']I have seen the most awful, totally off the mark "prophecies" uttered with the "boldness of da Lord"..
spoken with enough "power" to curl your hair, but they couldn't have been more ineffective, bland..
"ahh loves ya, mah people..."
gotta be kidding..
Can you tell us where this happened?
Or do you want to *diss* the entire proposition,
based on ramblings here on an open Forum in generalities???
Or can you give facts, from when this happened to you?
how many of you die hards believe that if you let this group of people go, just do not associate with stf or ces that God will love you less? or maybe just you wont know Him as well?
that the knowledge will be gone ? that there is no one eles to "really" teach the truth?
Do you (just a little bit even if not out loud?) think any other group or church will be a compromise or a lesser than?
less power? less truth less love, than anywhere eles?
why do you think this is so important? to hang on now through it all?
do you really really LOVE and have an investment in these leaders life and they yours?
REALLY????
ok think think think and be honest WHY?
i know i was in a cult how about you?
Hey pond,
I have been involved with the Way and with CES, and mostly experienced none of what you mention here. Maybe some people did - but generally I don't think that that was the case. The Way was at one time healthy. Up until sometime in the mid to late 80's it seems...after that things did get screwy and cultish...
CES has had problems and time will tell if the ship can be righted. The Way seems like a long lost cause at this point.
The 'cult' label has been put on the Way and CES maybe in large part due to doctrinal differences which differ with much of established Christian groups. One of those beliefs is that Jesus Christ is not God, and that the doctrine of the trinity is a man made doctrine. Thoughtful people - especially non Christians - can see fairly quickly that the doctrine of the trinity is a convoluted and strange doctrine that cannot be well supported by a clear and close look at the scriptures (or by common sense). Yep, I have looked closely at those scriptures.
The 'cult' label has been put on the Way and CES maybe in large part due to doctrinal differences which differ with much of established Christian groups.
Hello, Caribousam. We haven't met yet, so, nice to meet you.
I would like to respectfully disagree with your statement, quoted above. I would suggest that the label "cult" has been accurately applied to TWI (I do not speak on the subject of CES, but from what I've read throughout and learned from others involved, there are some alarming similarities).
The term, or label as you have described it, is not applied merely because of some doctrinal differences, but because of the systematic application of practices that have been detrimental to the members. These points of control and abuse are well-documented not only here on GS, but are recognizable against any standard of definitions applying to what is, or isn't, a cult.
My statements are not made out of fear, anger, bitterness, or any sense of personal betrayal. The term cult carries weight because of what it connotes and it should. To imply that it is a mere difference in doctrinal practice and interpretation that differs from "much of established Christian groups" would be to excuse or negate the damage done to the people involved, as well as to gloss over the potential for harm which is still in existence.
All of that being said, I continue to read your posts with interest.
CS, you're right in that there have been Christian groups who label as a cult anything which is not Trinitarian. But do hear Quiet Thinker (hello QT!) because cults DO have clear characteristics. TWI (and CES imo) meet quite a few of them. A good list is at: http://www.sspx-cult.com/CultCharacteristics.htm
I, too, by the grace of God, had a far better 'experience' with TWI than most people who post here....but a quick read of "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" by Johnson and VanVonderen clearly describes much of what has been going on in TWi (and CES--to a lesser degree but it's still all evil). Thus I call them both cults. Not because I'm mad at any of them...just by simple definition.
Carribousam, might I respectfully suggest that you might be unaware of the evil precedeing the mid 80s? You would have to I guess in order to believe that twi was healthy before that.
I was there, I have friends that were there. We had horrible things done to us in the name of God.
There are a lot of folks who assume that because they didn`t see the depravity that later engulfed the ministry early that it was non existant. It was there, just a better kept secret is all.
Groucho you wrote they should consider working at being Christian leaders without titles, authority and the temptation to lord over other people...
So...they could keep the office open...but drop the MG-instituted 'full-service church' misnomer, go back to offering Christian 'educational' materials to whoever in a free world wants to purchase them...'counsel' or mentor absolutely NO ONE...and when ANYONE asks questions on how to live direct them ONLY to Jesus, Holy Spirit, the Word and a local church, maybe?
That's up to them to decide...Maybe they should direct THEMSELVES to Jesus and ask him what he would have them do?...
...Considering the tangent that they have gone off on, it might be a good idea for them to "sit in the pews" for awhile and let someone else do the teaching and councilling for awhile? Christian leadership and charismatic personalities are not the same thing...
based on ramblings here on an open Forum in generalities???
Or can you give facts, from when this happened to you?
I'm waiting for an answer.
I dis the proposition based upon what I have seen and heard. But not entirely.
In general, I feel that prophecy on DEMAND is a flawed concept. Too many "prophecies" sounded too much like v.p.'s examples in the intermediate class..
I even heard one or two "I hollered, and I hollered, and I hollered..."
No kidding..
I don't dis prophecy IN GENERAL, but there have been too many pretenders.
Not trying to be antagonistic or anything -- however ---
while you acknowledge Rev from the Father,
you also (seem) to denigrate those who try to do so.
no offense taken.
Please do not take offense with the following. I'm not angry, or indignant, or bitter. That is not how I feel.
I PERSONALLY think they have God in a box. He is going to tell them, "go open a ministry, go start a work, go run a class" no matter WHAT. It's what they've done before, it MUST be RIGHT. After all, they have the "tools", or do they?
If they are as sharp as a blunted pair of scissors when it comes to prophecy- sifting through mounds of junk trying to make some meaning out of it..
I honestly think they are looking in the wrong place.
Of course it is MY opinion.
I often have these prophet wanabes approach, and say, "ya know, God could really use somebody like you.. ever consider..."
No thanks.
I've found the path HE wants me on. I'm doing what HE wants me to do, and at the current moment, it is NOT running an organization, teaching classes, going on iteneraries.
Just it seems they proclaim liberty, that you're supposed to follow your personal calling, then on the other hand, you're supposed to be "moving the word", etc. etc. The "prophecies" suggest as much: "rise up to the GREATNESS I've called you to be, moving da vord, slaying der debil..."
So.. I'm supposed to condemn myself for not "doing enough for God", drop what I'm supposed to be doing, move to Timbuktu, open a new work.. bring "the word" to the world. That is what some of the "more spiritual" of "that" organization suggested here, more than once.
Many of the "spiritual" find someone pursuing ANYTHING other than something that resembles twi an an easy target. Any path that has any "worldly" credentials is suspect.
I dropped everything once, and went on a mission on the word of a madman.
Everything wasn't bad, but you should see where the journey took me.
they worship their own thinking about what they think the scripture may say beyond the love for people and the service of the people.
they really began the strife and division.
Jesus Christ is an able teacher, all can and will learn His way.
the side tracking and wars and strife and division brought on by who is right and wrong again hits my LORD hard.
God is about love . Jesus does nt say make sure the word study has every single reference and book knowledge you can think of he commands we love one another and we love God first.
the idea that being right and correct and precise in this group is their mission.
how does this compare to how Jesus loved and had compassion for his followers and people? He healed whores and people who wouldnt be allowed in any community because He LOVES people, not because he had a chance to teach them a new spin on a bible verse. doctrine was NEVER his focus. i
the people Jesus agrued with were the leaders who thought their religous script was the ONLY way to go and they thought every one eles should be condemed if they disagreed or did different.
they had it in the rightness of the words they proclaimed the doctrine was very right YET jesus didnt like them for their attitude of the doctrine coming beofre loving one another.
keeping the sabbath etc. the leaders knew they had jesus onthe doctrine and jesus rebuked them because they didnt get the grace of God or the love of God He knows .
it is bible worship and an idol .
the idol is the study of the words BEYOND the very grace of God and the pure LOVE and mission of the Risen Christ!
the spin is the focus is no longer about the fact Jesus is able and LOVES and serves but what YOU know in your head about this word or that verse or that chapter and so easily is it used as a club to beat Gods child down into a type of submission to men.
a very small box indeed , but it works because in America we tend to honor those who claim a superiour knowledge of anything.
we give more respect to money we think education is wisdom.
it isnt.
groups like twi and ces claim to be victims because the rest just do not have the knowledge of God they have attained hence they are considered a cult and a victim of those more stupid than them.
it is pure arrogance. and it is the very attitude that makes the grace that Jesus Christ died for worthless.
funny thing tho when they need the grace man do they now quickly claim oh oh yeah we see an error here so it is going to have to be the grace that we claim to cover for me.
but untill that happens here your wrong IM right and I got this bullet of a verse I can apply to prove it to you right now!
it is a cruel system of abuse and when one knows enough bible verses very effective against those just trying to love one another andworship God in the peace that Jesus p[romises us.
I want you to notice these leader will not (i do think they are afraid) discuss bible beyond what they consider truth they just dismiss the idea as wrong and move on to those willing to also worship doctrine and heady knowledge.
In mainstream churches YOUR right the foucs is NOT doctrine because Jesus says He will teach each one of us with our OWN HOLY Spirt within, it is about loving and caring and serving one another .. something CES leaders have HUGE issues with, why because the areana isnt all about head learning of a book (satan has been very learned in scripture as well) and they must show and DO the love of God... without thier years of trianing to take a verse and cause division or strife or one up manship and they stay far far away from that!!!
that isnt their gig.
they LIKE having doctrine issues . it feeds their ego of being right and so many wrong. Is this How Jesus loves us?
i realize im talking to myself now and im answering my own post.
how sad
yet consider this
I am also sadened about the mess this group has gotten into.
but God does speak to each heart and this is what I think about it all.
truth vs tradition has turned into a political agenda.
it isnt that I say well the bible and its verses do not matter to me after forty years of study obviously they do matter to me.
it is the fact the polictical areana they have made for themselves has now eaten them up into a very small box.
i think the knowledge on that site is good, but I also think it is just knowledge , God is about his children Jesus is about loving us.
when knowledge is used to hurt another it realy isnt much worth is it?
how by pushing people who may not have the twi research and money and years spent at the cost of innocent people , of "research" in their history.
this doesnt make them less than nor does God love them less.
nor does God love these guys more(although I believe John S. thinks he is special ) and a few others.
we mesh our life with what we do, and they have worked many years doing this.
big deal.
one sinner saved is where God rejoices.
the person who finds cures for our illneses search and works many many years for what they have done, for the love of the work and the know how and the learning of new ideas.
God loves them to and we do consider that noble. cult heads have a difficult time getting over the wroship of these men because the bottom line on why is we think they must know more than us they have more knowledge of God because they have had to study the word . the word and nothing but the word remember?
i think many like John S and JOHN Lynn have been in a prison all of their life and no way out of it.
they never took the courage to trust God to begin something eles they just kept up with all they ever know in life.
no risk at all. and they didnt start anything they just took the scraping of twi and kept the pay roll going.
is it bad ? probably not.
but it isnt so noble either.
kind of sad really. really very limited.
but those of us cult heads have a need as they have a need, we were brain washed to think this is the only way to know God.
crap we are all in the same boat here.
please do not think they are not in a prison, the walls they built around this not only fed their ego and all what we got from the cult but also the pay check and do not fool your self in thinking they are not like everyone eles on earth who needs must be met by money.
it is apowerful force. and these guys KNOW nothing eles .
cough EXCEPT Mark who had his own business but still craved the power over others by playing jesus .
it is a attack on many fronts and very very enticing.
it is a cult mind set.
they really believe as those who follow them even from a distance believe that they have special powers from God and need to tell others and make some money in the process .
do not dismiss your own reason on why any other group may seem WRONG!
look at why? is it really all about the doctrine then? what good is that?
we often do not agree with our political leaders so we change them in our society no big deal, but with this group becuase we think God has endowed on them some special powers we do not go to that place of chance. of risk of change we do not even consider it.
and we are stubborn about it, as Paul claims all the religous folks were in his day.
Jesus chrisrt is about freedom, He is about loving us and us loving one another.
jesus is a simple guy with a simple agenda.
the complicated crap stf put out is all about them fixing the world with their super human powers... it is a cult head. i
It sounds like you're coming rom that place where Deep cries unto Deep.
I can also see that you are more than just a little familiar with the goings on at CES.
I agree that God is more concerned with Why we do what we do than with What we are doing.
And That Love for God and Love for people is essential.
And as you said, God's Love and Grace is not limited to just those with "right knowledge",
and I have found the Body of Christ to be a huge and wonderful place.
I just pray that the S&T Board of Directors gets it all back into the sweet center of God's Love
and will Speak the Truth in Love more wonderfully than ever.
God is concerned with what we are doing every single second of the day and night (and any time in between we may not be aware of yet!)
In fact He says we will be accountable for it on a very personal level.
EP you mind ST and its board of directors business more than your won because it takes the focus OFF you and your relationship with the Lord in your life. It in fact puts them in the position of being a lord in your life.
this is the ONLY part I do feel sorry for them.. people like you want and need and desire them to be so much more than they can ever be.
they are men, just like you, remember the Apostle Paul saying that? what does that mean? even a apostle of the LORD said Im so screwed up I would rather die than not know Jesus.
so worship these guys all you need to to focus on their flesh and what they want , but take heed to remember the man who wrote the holy scriptures said he would be better off DEAD than without Jesus.
As long as you compare you own life to men you can find error and problems with them and stroke you own self into thinking YOUR not so bad after all.
the standard is Jesus the Christ of all mankind not stf or its board or even the work they have done!
be concerned with HIS Board of directors and it may very well be a face your not familiar with or one you cant "talk" about with any knowledge of "how they are or what they have done". Look for Christ and HIs Glory today , do not wait for the judgement day when he can tell people you NEVER EVEN KNEW me . it is the religous folks He will say that to not the unbelievers.
they are men. stop making them try to be more for you, they know they are nothing more than screw ups like the rest of us, please stop putting them in a position to explain to YOU their life, you didnt save their life, and you do not grant forgivness and YOU will not be the one they will be accoutable when all is said and done.
it is folks with your attitude that feed the beast, for the insanity of religous crap.
WHY do you NEED stf so much?
where is Jesus christ in your life.
did you box HIM up in that little white building at the "home office"?
God is concerned with what we are doing every single second of the day and night (and any time in between we may not be aware of yet!)
In fact He says we will be accountable for it on a very personal level.
EP you mind ST and its board of directors business more than your won because it takes the focus OFF you and your relationship with the Lord in your life. It in fact puts them in the position of being a lord in your life.
this is the ONLY part I do feel sorry for them.. people like you want and need and desire them to be so much more than they can ever be.
they are men, just like you, remember the Apostle Paul saying that? what does that mean? even a apostle of the LORD said Im so screwed up I would rather die than not know Jesus.
so worship these guys all you need to to focus on their flesh and what they want , but take heed to remember the man who wrote the holy scriptures said he would be better off DEAD than without Jesus.
As long as you compare you own life to men you can find error and problems with them and stroke you own self into thinking YOUR not so bad after all.
the standard is Jesus the Christ of all mankind not stf or its board or even the work they have done!
be concerned with HIS Board of directors and it may very well be a face your not familiar with or one you cant "talk" about with any knowledge of "how they are or what they have done". Look for Christ and HIs Glory today , do not wait for the judgement day when he can tell people you NEVER EVEN KNEW me . it is the religous folks He will say that to not the unbelievers.
they are men. stop making them try to be more for you, they know they are nothing more than screw ups like the rest of us, please stop putting them in a position to explain to YOU their life, you didnt save their life, and you do not grant forgivness and YOU will not be the one they will be accoutable when all is said and done.
it is folks with your attitude that feed the beast, for the insanity of religous crap.
WHY do you NEED stf so much?
where is Jesus christ in your life.
did you box HIM up in that little white building at the "home office"?
I think NOT.
Hey pond,
I think I understand some of the points that you are trying to make. I just really really don't like
trashing Christians because of their faults. And, by the way, I'm not saying that you are trashing
anyone...
CES leaders - principally Graeser, Lynn, Shoenheit - it seems to me have not been able to really
help people enough in developing their OWN lives and relationships with Jesus. "Sheep" often fall into lazy patterns of blindly
following shepherds, and not using their God given brains and abilities to question, learn, and grow.
It can become an exercise like watching TV - entertaining but passive, and sometimes pointless.
Lazy sheep can entice careless servant leaders to prop their own selves up and act sort of like
gods. It's kind of an ugly cycle. But God does choose people to lead his people - and the onus falls
on those leaders to do the right things - to focus more on teaching the sheep to fish instead of
just throwing them bones. And to make sure that the sheep aren't falling into lazy patterns of
of what? the whole concept is not Gods will we are His family, we are a group of personalities and types and kinds that have a common belief in Jesus christ being alive today, in the bible story. friends is the word Jesus uses to describe our relationship. leader is a mans term for a power play.
now as far as learning and GROWING that is metioned in the bible.
when i was learning how to write on paper with a pencil I struggled and my hand often hurt and it was never just right and I was discouraged with all the red lines on my page from the TEACHER!!!!
today 45 years later writing is not a problem I enjoy it I use it as a skill in life and I appreciate all that time and changing of my mind I had to do to get it. I was taught it , I was not LED into it. I went to a differnt p[lace in life because i had the skill .
it isnt about being led by a man or woman, it is about learning and obeying Christ as we learn we grow and become bigger to go to different places in life. If i cant read i would not hang out at a book store to much would I? If I hate old folks and think they stink I wouldnt go to a nursing home to volunteer.. we are Not led by mans say so, we are led by our won learning and growth in life.
that is learning and growing and we all learn and grow as humans .
how and what about determines who we are as an individual, It is written Jesus is the only teacher we need concerning spiritual matters, I believe it!.
I do not suppose I am a sheep in any sense of the word either. bah bah
I remember from twi a picutre of blazing a trail , of a stuggle of a war of constant difficulty. because you now consider yourself a grad of the pfal class but not a EVEN a christian who can learn and grow from others who love the bible story, a special christ follower. because of the cult mind. not a unbelieving believer what the hell is that??? it is the sense of pride and ego sety up for a CULT to follow men.
no dear we do not need to be "led" anywhere to find God and His goodness on our life.
Jesus christ is here with us each and every moment he will never leave or forsake you.
how does what Jesus promises you compare to the rant vpw went off on about how if He was the ONLY ONE who believed it it woudl still be truth???
all about his ability to "stand".
and you bought it and still are searching for the man man enough to stand with you!!! and lead you to the cult world.
the greatest man I know ended up crushed and dead for me because He loves me, no the powerful l leader you want isnt in His soul He is such a lover and friend he gave all the people he loved His very LIFE to just obey and TRUST our only God our Father.
He was led alright into the glory of being the ONLY man who God could lead into the glorious life He wants for ALL mankind. .
He is my leader He is my LORD He is my KING.
and He is no longer just a Man!!!! He is our teacher He is our only Saviour.
praise God to the highest.
take a chance on your leaders.. if ya get to reading the bible story take a poll will ya how many of them did more harm than good??? hmmm
Lazy sheep makes no sense. Sheep need shepards or llamas or something because they are vulnerable to the dangers of predators and water (due to their wool). They are not lazy--it is their nature which they cannot change. They have few defense abilities. ( Domestic sheep, not talking about mountain sheep.)
They are good at getting out of fences and clogging highways, though.
Sheep need oversight to stay safe.
-sez one who lived on a sheep ranch for a couple years.
I grew up on a large farm and we often had one big old fat mama who would start the trail back to the barn to get milked when the time was close, and sure enough the other cows would look and say HUH??? and follow her!
she must have been their leader!!!!
na her boobs got full or she wanted some water or she recognized a human standing by the barn and wanted a pat on her fur.
it wasnt the Same cow every day either imagine that.
IM not a cow. i do not run my life by the survival and needs met.
i have a spirit that is alive within me that christ can does teach and love.
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Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
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Kevlar2000
Frankly, if I had been part of not one, but two (or maybe more?) organizations whose "noble intentions" had turned so quickly to s--t, I would start to question if I was correctly interpreting how God wanted me to minister.
Maybe biblical research, teaching and fellowship is not the genuine calling of these folks.
When a building you design and build keeps collapsing, you not only examine it for structural integrity, you call in other experts to check your work - unless you really believe you have an insight to engineering that has not been known since the first century.
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Estimated Prophet
"...and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters..."
Gen 1:2
Good Insight People.
Good Heart.
I'm very curious about what the view is like at Camp Vision these days.
If they are willing to let the spirit move in them as you all are,
then great things will be happening.
regarding leadership...
I like the word "Overseer" meaning one who watches out for others.
Also "Servant" meaning one who supports another.
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sprawled out
mmmmmm...baby soup!
doesn't look like you need any help to me, dooj.
YES! in part because i don't think these guys even KNOW what's in their hearts. they never stopped to look. they just tumbled from twi into ces and rode the snowball. so YES, i think they should just get out of the "minister" business for a while. if not forever. it's painfully clear that, even with all their experience, and the benefit of all that hindsight, they SUCK at it.
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Ham
If he was telling you, put the desire there, that is one thing. If it is what somebody thinks THEY want to do, it may be a very different matter.
A lot of people leaving der vey thought that it was the lord's will that they continue the path that they were on. I think that is a little presumptuous.
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dmiller
Heb. 4:12:
For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow,
and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Not trying to be antagonistic or anything -- however ---
while you acknowledge Rev from the Father,
you also (seem) to denigrate those who try to do so.
Perhaps the above verse from Hebrews, should read ---
For the word of God HAM [is] quick, and powerful,
and sharper than any two edged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow,
and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart
For what it is worth -- I can appreciate your skeptical outlook.
You're entitled to it. But you're not adding a thing to the discussion here.
As I've said -- I've supported CES, but now they are in the *balances*,
as far as I am concerned.
If you can offer some substantive evidence for what you say --- I'll listen.
So far -- I see (and smell), nothing but SMOKE.
You said in this quote ---
Can you tell us where this happened?
Or do you want to *diss* the entire proposition,
based on ramblings here on an open Forum in generalities???
Or can you give facts, from when this happened to you?
I'm waiting for an answer.
(edited for spelling)
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caribousam
Hey pond,
I have been involved with the Way and with CES, and mostly experienced none of what you mention here. Maybe some people did - but generally I don't think that that was the case. The Way was at one time healthy. Up until sometime in the mid to late 80's it seems...after that things did get screwy and cultish...
CES has had problems and time will tell if the ship can be righted. The Way seems like a long lost cause at this point.
The 'cult' label has been put on the Way and CES maybe in large part due to doctrinal differences which differ with much of established Christian groups. One of those beliefs is that Jesus Christ is not God, and that the doctrine of the trinity is a man made doctrine. Thoughtful people - especially non Christians - can see fairly quickly that the doctrine of the trinity is a convoluted and strange doctrine that cannot be well supported by a clear and close look at the scriptures (or by common sense). Yep, I have looked closely at those scriptures.
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QuietThinker
Hello, Caribousam. We haven't met yet, so, nice to meet you.
I would like to respectfully disagree with your statement, quoted above. I would suggest that the label "cult" has been accurately applied to TWI (I do not speak on the subject of CES, but from what I've read throughout and learned from others involved, there are some alarming similarities).
The term, or label as you have described it, is not applied merely because of some doctrinal differences, but because of the systematic application of practices that have been detrimental to the members. These points of control and abuse are well-documented not only here on GS, but are recognizable against any standard of definitions applying to what is, or isn't, a cult.
My statements are not made out of fear, anger, bitterness, or any sense of personal betrayal. The term cult carries weight because of what it connotes and it should. To imply that it is a mere difference in doctrinal practice and interpretation that differs from "much of established Christian groups" would be to excuse or negate the damage done to the people involved, as well as to gloss over the potential for harm which is still in existence.
All of that being said, I continue to read your posts with interest.
~QT
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therebutforgrace
CS, you're right in that there have been Christian groups who label as a cult anything which is not Trinitarian. But do hear Quiet Thinker (hello QT!) because cults DO have clear characteristics. TWI (and CES imo) meet quite a few of them. A good list is at: http://www.sspx-cult.com/CultCharacteristics.htm
I, too, by the grace of God, had a far better 'experience' with TWI than most people who post here....but a quick read of "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" by Johnson and VanVonderen clearly describes much of what has been going on in TWi (and CES--to a lesser degree but it's still all evil). Thus I call them both cults. Not because I'm mad at any of them...just by simple definition.
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rascal
Carribousam, might I respectfully suggest that you might be unaware of the evil precedeing the mid 80s? You would have to I guess in order to believe that twi was healthy before that.
I was there, I have friends that were there. We had horrible things done to us in the name of God.
There are a lot of folks who assume that because they didn`t see the depravity that later engulfed the ministry early that it was non existant. It was there, just a better kept secret is all.
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GrouchoMarxJr
That's up to them to decide...Maybe they should direct THEMSELVES to Jesus and ask him what he would have them do?...
...Considering the tangent that they have gone off on, it might be a good idea for them to "sit in the pews" for awhile and let someone else do the teaching and councilling for awhile? Christian leadership and charismatic personalities are not the same thing...
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Ham
I dis the proposition based upon what I have seen and heard. But not entirely.
In general, I feel that prophecy on DEMAND is a flawed concept. Too many "prophecies" sounded too much like v.p.'s examples in the intermediate class..
I even heard one or two "I hollered, and I hollered, and I hollered..."
No kidding..
I don't dis prophecy IN GENERAL, but there have been too many pretenders.
Where do YOU draw the line?
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Ham
no offense taken.
Please do not take offense with the following. I'm not angry, or indignant, or bitter. That is not how I feel.
I PERSONALLY think they have God in a box. He is going to tell them, "go open a ministry, go start a work, go run a class" no matter WHAT. It's what they've done before, it MUST be RIGHT. After all, they have the "tools", or do they?
If they are as sharp as a blunted pair of scissors when it comes to prophecy- sifting through mounds of junk trying to make some meaning out of it..
I honestly think they are looking in the wrong place.
Of course it is MY opinion.
I often have these prophet wanabes approach, and say, "ya know, God could really use somebody like you.. ever consider..."
No thanks.
I've found the path HE wants me on. I'm doing what HE wants me to do, and at the current moment, it is NOT running an organization, teaching classes, going on iteneraries.
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Ham
Just it seems they proclaim liberty, that you're supposed to follow your personal calling, then on the other hand, you're supposed to be "moving the word", etc. etc. The "prophecies" suggest as much: "rise up to the GREATNESS I've called you to be, moving da vord, slaying der debil..."
So.. I'm supposed to condemn myself for not "doing enough for God", drop what I'm supposed to be doing, move to Timbuktu, open a new work.. bring "the word" to the world. That is what some of the "more spiritual" of "that" organization suggested here, more than once.
Many of the "spiritual" find someone pursuing ANYTHING other than something that resembles twi an an easy target. Any path that has any "worldly" credentials is suspect.
I dropped everything once, and went on a mission on the word of a madman.
Everything wasn't bad, but you should see where the journey took me.
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Estimated Prophet
Hammer,
Someday , when we have the time (?)
I'd love to hear all about your journey.
Thanks for all of your posts.
I'm appreciating your heart the more I read them.
and after pondering all these posts,
I think it boils dowm to recognizing
"Jesus is the Lord"
and His way is best.
Most of the problems I've had are a result of obeying so called men of god ,
or so called prophets,
rather than Jesus Christ.
and Jesus never imposes his will upon us the way some of those so called people do.
He is content to let us make our own choices.
or so it seems to me today
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pond
exactly the focus is doctrine.
they worship their own thinking about what they think the scripture may say beyond the love for people and the service of the people.
they really began the strife and division.
Jesus Christ is an able teacher, all can and will learn His way.
the side tracking and wars and strife and division brought on by who is right and wrong again hits my LORD hard.
God is about love . Jesus does nt say make sure the word study has every single reference and book knowledge you can think of he commands we love one another and we love God first.
the idea that being right and correct and precise in this group is their mission.
how does this compare to how Jesus loved and had compassion for his followers and people? He healed whores and people who wouldnt be allowed in any community because He LOVES people, not because he had a chance to teach them a new spin on a bible verse. doctrine was NEVER his focus. i
the people Jesus agrued with were the leaders who thought their religous script was the ONLY way to go and they thought every one eles should be condemed if they disagreed or did different.
they had it in the rightness of the words they proclaimed the doctrine was very right YET jesus didnt like them for their attitude of the doctrine coming beofre loving one another.
keeping the sabbath etc. the leaders knew they had jesus onthe doctrine and jesus rebuked them because they didnt get the grace of God or the love of God He knows .
it is bible worship and an idol .
the idol is the study of the words BEYOND the very grace of God and the pure LOVE and mission of the Risen Christ!
the spin is the focus is no longer about the fact Jesus is able and LOVES and serves but what YOU know in your head about this word or that verse or that chapter and so easily is it used as a club to beat Gods child down into a type of submission to men.
a very small box indeed , but it works because in America we tend to honor those who claim a superiour knowledge of anything.
we give more respect to money we think education is wisdom.
it isnt.
groups like twi and ces claim to be victims because the rest just do not have the knowledge of God they have attained hence they are considered a cult and a victim of those more stupid than them.
it is pure arrogance. and it is the very attitude that makes the grace that Jesus Christ died for worthless.
funny thing tho when they need the grace man do they now quickly claim oh oh yeah we see an error here so it is going to have to be the grace that we claim to cover for me.
but untill that happens here your wrong IM right and I got this bullet of a verse I can apply to prove it to you right now!
it is a cruel system of abuse and when one knows enough bible verses very effective against those just trying to love one another andworship God in the peace that Jesus p[romises us.
I want you to notice these leader will not (i do think they are afraid) discuss bible beyond what they consider truth they just dismiss the idea as wrong and move on to those willing to also worship doctrine and heady knowledge.
In mainstream churches YOUR right the foucs is NOT doctrine because Jesus says He will teach each one of us with our OWN HOLY Spirt within, it is about loving and caring and serving one another .. something CES leaders have HUGE issues with, why because the areana isnt all about head learning of a book (satan has been very learned in scripture as well) and they must show and DO the love of God... without thier years of trianing to take a verse and cause division or strife or one up manship and they stay far far away from that!!!
that isnt their gig.
they LIKE having doctrine issues . it feeds their ego of being right and so many wrong. Is this How Jesus loves us?
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pond
i realize im talking to myself now and im answering my own post.
how sad
yet consider this
I am also sadened about the mess this group has gotten into.
but God does speak to each heart and this is what I think about it all.
truth vs tradition has turned into a political agenda.
it isnt that I say well the bible and its verses do not matter to me after forty years of study obviously they do matter to me.
it is the fact the polictical areana they have made for themselves has now eaten them up into a very small box.
i think the knowledge on that site is good, but I also think it is just knowledge , God is about his children Jesus is about loving us.
when knowledge is used to hurt another it realy isnt much worth is it?
how by pushing people who may not have the twi research and money and years spent at the cost of innocent people , of "research" in their history.
this doesnt make them less than nor does God love them less.
nor does God love these guys more(although I believe John S. thinks he is special ) and a few others.
we mesh our life with what we do, and they have worked many years doing this.
big deal.
one sinner saved is where God rejoices.
the person who finds cures for our illneses search and works many many years for what they have done, for the love of the work and the know how and the learning of new ideas.
God loves them to and we do consider that noble. cult heads have a difficult time getting over the wroship of these men because the bottom line on why is we think they must know more than us they have more knowledge of God because they have had to study the word . the word and nothing but the word remember?
i think many like John S and JOHN Lynn have been in a prison all of their life and no way out of it.
they never took the courage to trust God to begin something eles they just kept up with all they ever know in life.
no risk at all. and they didnt start anything they just took the scraping of twi and kept the pay roll going.
is it bad ? probably not.
but it isnt so noble either.
kind of sad really. really very limited.
but those of us cult heads have a need as they have a need, we were brain washed to think this is the only way to know God.
crap we are all in the same boat here.
please do not think they are not in a prison, the walls they built around this not only fed their ego and all what we got from the cult but also the pay check and do not fool your self in thinking they are not like everyone eles on earth who needs must be met by money.
it is apowerful force. and these guys KNOW nothing eles .
cough EXCEPT Mark who had his own business but still craved the power over others by playing jesus .
it is a attack on many fronts and very very enticing.
it is a cult mind set.
they really believe as those who follow them even from a distance believe that they have special powers from God and need to tell others and make some money in the process .
do not dismiss your own reason on why any other group may seem WRONG!
look at why? is it really all about the doctrine then? what good is that?
we often do not agree with our political leaders so we change them in our society no big deal, but with this group becuase we think God has endowed on them some special powers we do not go to that place of chance. of risk of change we do not even consider it.
and we are stubborn about it, as Paul claims all the religous folks were in his day.
Jesus chrisrt is about freedom, He is about loving us and us loving one another.
jesus is a simple guy with a simple agenda.
the complicated crap stf put out is all about them fixing the world with their super human powers... it is a cult head. i
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excathedra
pond
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Estimated Prophet
Pond,
Thanks for sharing all that.
It sounds like you're coming rom that place where Deep cries unto Deep.
I can also see that you are more than just a little familiar with the goings on at CES.
I agree that God is more concerned with Why we do what we do than with What we are doing.
And That Love for God and Love for people is essential.
And as you said, God's Love and Grace is not limited to just those with "right knowledge",
and I have found the Body of Christ to be a huge and wonderful place.
I just pray that the S&T Board of Directors gets it all back into the sweet center of God's Love
and will Speak the Truth in Love more wonderfully than ever.
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pond
God is concerned with what we are doing every single second of the day and night (and any time in between we may not be aware of yet!)
In fact He says we will be accountable for it on a very personal level.
EP you mind ST and its board of directors business more than your won because it takes the focus OFF you and your relationship with the Lord in your life. It in fact puts them in the position of being a lord in your life.
this is the ONLY part I do feel sorry for them.. people like you want and need and desire them to be so much more than they can ever be.
they are men, just like you, remember the Apostle Paul saying that? what does that mean? even a apostle of the LORD said Im so screwed up I would rather die than not know Jesus.
so worship these guys all you need to to focus on their flesh and what they want , but take heed to remember the man who wrote the holy scriptures said he would be better off DEAD than without Jesus.
As long as you compare you own life to men you can find error and problems with them and stroke you own self into thinking YOUR not so bad after all.
the standard is Jesus the Christ of all mankind not stf or its board or even the work they have done!
be concerned with HIS Board of directors and it may very well be a face your not familiar with or one you cant "talk" about with any knowledge of "how they are or what they have done". Look for Christ and HIs Glory today , do not wait for the judgement day when he can tell people you NEVER EVEN KNEW me . it is the religous folks He will say that to not the unbelievers.
they are men. stop making them try to be more for you, they know they are nothing more than screw ups like the rest of us, please stop putting them in a position to explain to YOU their life, you didnt save their life, and you do not grant forgivness and YOU will not be the one they will be accoutable when all is said and done.
it is folks with your attitude that feed the beast, for the insanity of religous crap.
WHY do you NEED stf so much?
where is Jesus christ in your life.
did you box HIM up in that little white building at the "home office"?
I think NOT.
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caribousam
Hey pond,
I think I understand some of the points that you are trying to make. I just really really don't like
trashing Christians because of their faults. And, by the way, I'm not saying that you are trashing
anyone...
CES leaders - principally Graeser, Lynn, Shoenheit - it seems to me have not been able to really
help people enough in developing their OWN lives and relationships with Jesus. "Sheep" often fall into lazy patterns of blindly
following shepherds, and not using their God given brains and abilities to question, learn, and grow.
It can become an exercise like watching TV - entertaining but passive, and sometimes pointless.
Lazy sheep can entice careless servant leaders to prop their own selves up and act sort of like
gods. It's kind of an ugly cycle. But God does choose people to lead his people - and the onus falls
on those leaders to do the right things - to focus more on teaching the sheep to fish instead of
just throwing them bones. And to make sure that the sheep aren't falling into lazy patterns of
disbelief and inaction.
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pond
leaders????
of what? the whole concept is not Gods will we are His family, we are a group of personalities and types and kinds that have a common belief in Jesus christ being alive today, in the bible story. friends is the word Jesus uses to describe our relationship. leader is a mans term for a power play.
now as far as learning and GROWING that is metioned in the bible.
when i was learning how to write on paper with a pencil I struggled and my hand often hurt and it was never just right and I was discouraged with all the red lines on my page from the TEACHER!!!!
today 45 years later writing is not a problem I enjoy it I use it as a skill in life and I appreciate all that time and changing of my mind I had to do to get it. I was taught it , I was not LED into it. I went to a differnt p[lace in life because i had the skill .
it isnt about being led by a man or woman, it is about learning and obeying Christ as we learn we grow and become bigger to go to different places in life. If i cant read i would not hang out at a book store to much would I? If I hate old folks and think they stink I wouldnt go to a nursing home to volunteer.. we are Not led by mans say so, we are led by our won learning and growth in life.
that is learning and growing and we all learn and grow as humans .
how and what about determines who we are as an individual, It is written Jesus is the only teacher we need concerning spiritual matters, I believe it!.
I do not suppose I am a sheep in any sense of the word either. bah bah
I remember from twi a picutre of blazing a trail , of a stuggle of a war of constant difficulty. because you now consider yourself a grad of the pfal class but not a EVEN a christian who can learn and grow from others who love the bible story, a special christ follower. because of the cult mind. not a unbelieving believer what the hell is that??? it is the sense of pride and ego sety up for a CULT to follow men.
no dear we do not need to be "led" anywhere to find God and His goodness on our life.
Jesus christ is here with us each and every moment he will never leave or forsake you.
how does what Jesus promises you compare to the rant vpw went off on about how if He was the ONLY ONE who believed it it woudl still be truth???
all about his ability to "stand".
and you bought it and still are searching for the man man enough to stand with you!!! and lead you to the cult world.
the greatest man I know ended up crushed and dead for me because He loves me, no the powerful l leader you want isnt in His soul He is such a lover and friend he gave all the people he loved His very LIFE to just obey and TRUST our only God our Father.
He was led alright into the glory of being the ONLY man who God could lead into the glorious life He wants for ALL mankind. .
He is my leader He is my LORD He is my KING.
and He is no longer just a Man!!!! He is our teacher He is our only Saviour.
praise God to the highest.
take a chance on your leaders.. if ya get to reading the bible story take a poll will ya how many of them did more harm than good??? hmmm
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Bramble
Lazy sheep makes no sense. Sheep need shepards or llamas or something because they are vulnerable to the dangers of predators and water (due to their wool). They are not lazy--it is their nature which they cannot change. They have few defense abilities. ( Domestic sheep, not talking about mountain sheep.)
They are good at getting out of fences and clogging highways, though.
Sheep need oversight to stay safe.
-sez one who lived on a sheep ranch for a couple years.
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Bramble
My point being, you don't blame the sheep for being sheep. The resposibility for the safety of the flock is the shepard's responsibility.
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pond
cows too!
I grew up on a large farm and we often had one big old fat mama who would start the trail back to the barn to get milked when the time was close, and sure enough the other cows would look and say HUH??? and follow her!
she must have been their leader!!!!
na her boobs got full or she wanted some water or she recognized a human standing by the barn and wanted a pat on her fur.
it wasnt the Same cow every day either imagine that.
IM not a cow. i do not run my life by the survival and needs met.
i have a spirit that is alive within me that christ can does teach and love.
he loves the cows to IM sure haha
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