Although I would agree with 99% of what Dr. Jeudes wrote in his article, I would not agree that the concept of personal prophecy is without biblical support. That would be like saying that because someone abused the Lord's Supper -- which we know the Corinthian church did in I Cor. 11:20 -- that you just stop doing it, that it's "bad theology" because it engenders gluttony and drunkenness and class-ism.
Dr. Jeudes did not address I Cor. 14:24, which says "But if an unbeliever or inquirer comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"
Do you think maybe Ananias told Paul the words the Lord had given to him in Acts 9:15 as an encouragement? I would think so. And apparently Timothy was given personal prophecies about his ministry I Tim. 1:18. "Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight,..."
Again, I agree that this practice can (and DID) become abusive by some. But that could be said of just about any practice in the church. I grew up in a church where baptism -- how you did it, when you did it, where you did it, what you said while doing it -- became more important than the Lord Jesus Christ! It was the litmus test of whether you were a REAL Christian. If you did not follow the pattern, you were going to Hell. Period.
Does that mean I reject baptism totally? That I throw out the baby with the baptismal water? No. It just means as I grew up and got outside that box, I learned how to put the ordinance in its rightful place.
Just food for thought. Thank you for reading and thanks to Dr. Jeudes for his article.
Dr. Jeudes did not address I Cor. 14:24, which says "But if an unbeliever or inquirer comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"
True. But probably for the same reason I wouldn't, I've NEVER, EVER EVER seen it work, at least in der vey or offshoots. Did it happen to you? I'm not entirely impressed.
I don't know if it's true or not, but I read a story about a guy who wanted to be an investor. Started with about 2000 names and addresses. He makes a prediction, says "IBM stock will rise" and sends to half, sends "IBM stock will fall" and sends it to the other half.. after eight predictions, he has fifteen who will sign away their fortunes to him to invest.
Really, I think that is what we have here. I have heard the most mundane, plain WRONG "prophecies" ..
"don't worry, mah son.." sheesh, I wasn't worried about anything at the time..
I've been "ministered" to for pain that wasn't there..
With all that said, I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just saying, I've never seen it work.
As far as K.G. being "right on the money" with J.L., I think she was simply telling him what he wanted to hear.
how many of you die hards believe that if you let this group of people go, just do not associate with stf or ces that God will love you less? or maybe just you wont know Him as well?
that the knowledge will be gone ? that there is no one eles to "really" teach the truth?
Do you (just a little bit even if not out loud?) think any other group or church will be a compromise or a lesser than?
less power? less truth less love, than anywhere eles?
why do you think this is so important? to hang on now through it all?
do you really really LOVE and have an investment in these leaders life and they yours?
So.. if it doesn't work, re-invent it. Prophecies fail? Don't come to pass? Simply re-invent it. Turn it into "conditional prophecy", or some such nonsense..
"well, you WOULDA felt like dirt if I didn't let you have it with this little gem.."
If you are losing a ball game, the easy way out would be to simply change the rules.
OK...On one hand, I don't want to beat these guys to death and dance on their graves...but on the other hand I take extreme exception when I see sincere people getting bamboozeled, while the top folks get their egos stroked.
Forgive the leaders of CES/STIF ?...Sure, I can forgive them...but the real question here is are they any longer qualified to be considered "Christian leaders"???
I mean, how many cults do you have to be in before you hit bottom?
Hey, pond...Quite a few of us left CES long ago, no longer look to them for spiritual knowledge, and haven't listened to a teaching in years. Quite a few of us don't consider them 'leadership', have gone to other churches for quite a while, and yet....really do love some of them and have an investment in their lives.
Groucho, quite a few of us don't think they qualify as 'leadership' anymore (as signified by our having gone elsewhere), but you're right...the thread could have purpose if folks would discuss what qualifies people for leadership and what doesn't, how someone who has been disqualified could return, to what extent, with what checks and balances, etc.
We all know that who God calls to what is His business...so I won’t argue with Him if He calls any of the CES guys again to what I might call 'leadership' (they obviously remain called to everything you and I remain called to). I can’t right now picture any of them being my ‘leadership', but I will definitely stand for their freedom from deception. I will not say they are permanently disqualified anymore than I would want someone to say that I am.
Ham, for you to make up and knock what they might have said or done, or make up and mock what they might yet say or do does not seem productive at all. They have enough real problems to work through without your hypothetical ones. Why not spend your time instead praying for their victory over our common enemy?
I’d like to see every ‘fallen’ minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ become sterling examples to the world of our God’s grace and love in allowing us to stay on His team despite our previous screw ups. Why not pray for the CES guys (and any other Wayfer or off-shooter) to be shining examples of our God’s mercy in allowing those of us who have hurt His people to not only keep breathing but to once again be trusted with representing Him?
As many have said, it will take time for these guys to realize the bulk of the error of their ways and then live differently long enough to be trusted again....but how does it help them (or Jesus) to pummel them among ourselves here at GS? We CAN help by speaking tough truths in love. By pointing out deception. By restoring in meekness. How 'bout considering this thread to be: "CES Is In A Mess, So How Can We Help Our Brothers And Sisters In Christ?"
Then, if we who are spiritual work together here at GS and maybe learn how to restore someone in the spirit of meekness considering ourselves lest we also be tempted, we will be able to offer that help to all the offshoots and every other cultish group we all run across in our lvies. Think of the impact we can have for our Father and Savior as we really DO put on the mind of Christ, and we really ARE His hands and feet in this world!!
OK...On one hand, I don't want to beat these guys to death and dance on their graves...but on the other hand I take extreme exception when I see sincere people getting bamboozeled, while the top folks get their egos stroked.
Forgive the leaders of CES/STIF ?...Sure, I can forgive them...but the real question here is are they any longer qualified to be considered "Christian leaders"???
I mean, how many cults do you have to be in before you hit bottom?
I think if their qualifications were based solely on what is mostly being reported here,
then I can understand how one would take extreme exception to their leadership.
By "them" I am asuming you are referring to the S&T Board of Directors and their ordained clergy members.
However...
I hold John Schoenheit's integrity in the highest regard
and can not think of a more qualified Christian to man the wheel.
I've been a guest in his home and he in mine.
He measures up to Timothy and Titus as well as anyone I know.
I have had a good deal of time and experience with him with which to base my opinion.
Honest
I believe there is more good being accomplished by this minisrty that has been reported here.
Dr. Juede's report was very susinct in addressing certain problems,
but that does not refute the many genuine blessings that have been accomplished.
And Prophecy is indeed very biblical.
This is not a cult.
This is not a Santa Clause fantasy.
and honestly Pond,
I don't know of any one who actually thinks God would love them less for withdrawing from S&T.
No one I know thinks they are the only source of knowledge of the Truth.
I'm not even on their mailing list,
and haven't been directly involved in S&T for three years.
Yet I still have a very healthy relationship with all my friends still involved.
It's not a matter of being bamboozled,
It's simply a matter of loving what our Almighty God Loves.
and I take Extreme Exception to the abusive language and evil suspicions
I think if their qualifications were based solely on what is mostly being reported here,
then I can understand how one would take extreme exception to their leadership.
By "them" I am asuming you are referring to the S&T Board of Directors and their ordained clergy members.
However...
I hold John Schoenheit's integrity in the highest regard
and can not think of a more qualified Christian to man the wheel.
I've been a guest in his home and he in mine.
He measures up to Timothy and Titus as well as anyone I know.
I have had a good deal of time and experience with him with which to base my opinion.
Honest
I believe there is more good being accomplished by this minisrty that has been reported here.
Dr. Juede's report was very susinct in addressing certain problems,
but that does not refute the many genuine blessings that have been accomplished.
And Prophecy is indeed very biblical.
This is not a cult.
This is not a Santa Clause fantasy.
and honestly Pond,
I don't know of any one who actually thinks God would love them less for withdrawing from S&T.
No one I know thinks they are the only source of knowledge of the Truth.
I'm not even on their mailing list,
and haven't been directly involved in S&T for three years.
Yet I still have a very healthy relationship with all my friends still involved.
It's not a matter of being bamboozled,
It's simply a matter of loving what our Almighty God Loves.
and I take Extreme Exception to the abusive language and evil suspicions
directed against good people.
A good friend once taught...
You don't get out of the muck and the mire
by looking at the muck and the mire
while pointing to the light.
you get out of the muck and the mire
by looking at the Light
and pointing to the light.
or as Wayne Dyer says
If you change the way you look at things
the things you look at will change.
Peace
Hi estimated prophet, I agree with pretty much all of what you say. Unfortunately, a lot of people in the USA have this win or lose mentality which causes them to throw out the baby with the bath water. Instead of holding on to the good they've learned, some just throw it all away. In an imperfect world, this is not a great way to go. Wisdom from above is available which helps us to discern, and help us be able to keep the good while acknowleding and staying away form the bad. I've fellowshipped with many Christian groups and have been able to learn something from just about all...
I disagree. That whole idea of holding on to the good seems to be mostly an excuse to continue trying to patch and repair what appears to be a crumbling foundation in a desperate attempt to save the structure that so much time, effort and money have been spent building.
I think that it is far better to raze the entire unsound structure to the ground and begin to build a new structure with a solid foundation.
It is tough, costly, it takes longer.....but in beginning fresh, with the skills and knowledge that you have aquired, in the end you have a solid structure that can actually withstand the storms.
Rascal, CS, EP I don't think we're really far apart. If we substitute specifics for the idioms, we might put something together that could be very helpful.
Rascal I think your “skills and knowledge acquired” is part of EP and CS's "baby".
Let’s be specific....in CES at this time we've got 4 couples and JL who form the nucleus of an organization.
Is the bath water the deception they’ve swallowed and therefore promulgated?
Is the baby the organization?
Is the structure their organization?
Is the foundation their doctrine?
I've never thought in terms of organizations, since Christ didn't die for an organization.
I've only thought in terms of individuals...
so it's easier for me to see what's a baby and what's bath water.
The person is the baby and their thinking that has been polluted into calling evil good (and corresponding actions) is the bath water.
So, as the baby sees stronghold #1 as corrupt and begins to tear it down, out goes some of his bath water.
Using the foundation/structure analogy...I think it’s supposed to be something:
Christ is the foundation/cornerstone....the Body of Christ is the structure....the people are the Members in particular Whom Christ died for...their eternal life is what Christ bought for them...and their individual walk of sanctification in this natural life (losing their own life, dying to self, loving as Christ loved usm one thought and decison at a time, tearing down strongho9lds and leading each thought captive to what Christ would say or think or do) is how they show obedience to Him out of their joy and thankfulness for His sacrifice.
So...as each CES person sees that he/she has been deceived, he goes to the Lord and asks to be shown EVERY area. Then, one at a time, he repents (to God and to any person affected---privately, publicly as required in each instance) and begins to re-learn.
I might see 13 areas in which one CES person needs to change. I can be thankful he's on #2 or irritated that he's so slow. My choice. I know Jesus has waited years for me to come around to some things, so although I sure hope it won't take them years, I am thankful that some of them have begun.
How 'bout we take this view and try to re-construct an offering of The Road Back?
Most of us have been deceived...have had people in our lives who knew it when we didn't know it...have had help waking up...have had more than one thing to wake up about...have screwed up more than once in life...have hurt other people...have seen other people be deceived...have helped some of them wake up...etc. Although our lives might not have been as public as the Way/CES/offshoots (thank God!), our Lord did walk us through some of the same territory, didn’t He?
I would think this august body of GSers could Write The Book On it!
i think it's mighty hard to separate the baby and the bathwater. if you ask me, bathwater is everywhere in CES/STFI. it's in their organization, their doctrine, their hearts.
and i agree with rascal--start over. BUT this time, take a break. a long, long break. take time to re-adjust mentally, to clear away the old mindsets--starting with the residual waybrain that became the "new" foundation. take a walk. go away. get a job. learn how to think for yourself. then, after a few YEARS, if you still feel the need to (and god willing, you won't), start afresh. AFRESH. re-examine everything. question everything. subject every assumption and conclusion to the harshest possible inspection.
and maybe, just maybe, you'll learn from your mistakes this time.
Moving past the doubt and the 'get a job' comment which has been explained here many times (JL and all CES BOD members have other jobs except Mark), be specific...'Clear away old mindsets'...'residual Waybrain'...like what?
I'll start.....
Using God's terminology.....
Pride and Self-righteousness (in man's words, elitism)....
Shown in the thought that, "We know more of the truth than anyone else" or "We more 'rightly divide' the Word than anyone else".
I am not a regular contributor to this thread, or topic for that matter, but I appreciate your wisdom here. I think there are more than 2 sides to this baby/bathwater analogy for everyone.
I recently told an TWI fringer, to ''start over''. That freaked him out a little. He lost his bible with all his Way notes............His comment was ''but that is 25 years of good research down the drain." He's searching for something else other than the Way, BUT with the premise that "THE WAY HAD IT (the foundations) RIGHT." I told him to at least put it to the side for now, revisit it later, but start over learning about God without any preconceived ideas.........................(easier said then done, I know).
I think this is the issue with many. To most, the "BABY" is the doctrinal foundations. That is why most leave in search of groups like CES/CFF, because they want to hold onto that baby. But it's a flawed, to say the least, foundation.
I think even Rascal would be alluding to this by the ''start over'' comment. Since the foundations are the baby of ''the Way had it right" attitude.......
I caution, and I think you did too, that although starting over is good, doesn't mean to SCRAP GOD!
Therefore, if HE is the BABY, then, you don't throw HIM out. But, by all means if you need to scrap it all and start over, then the doctrine and practice is where to start scrapping.
Unfortunately, I have a relative that just told me that God is the baby, and they are throwing it out. ...... Getting rid of GOD.
That saddens me.
But, I will continue to love, and be graceful. (and pray)! God will find them when they are ready.
Moving past the doubt and the 'get a job' comment which has been explained here many times (JL and all CES BOD members have other jobs except Mark), be specific...'Clear away old mindsets'...'residual Waybrain'...like what?
like EVERYTHING, gracie. i mean, GET AWAY FROM THE WHOLE THING. stop trying to "move the word," or whatever you call it. get a job--and by that i mean, a vocation other than "the ministry." put your mind, your heart, if you will, someplace else for a while. learn to think outside of the box of what you consider to be "the word." (horrors!) then, after a good long time, come back with a fresh perspective.
i guess i don't really expect you to get it, as simple as it is. the problem is, these guys rolled from twi right into their own thing. and though they thought they were throwing out the bathwater, the truth is, they didn't really know what was bathwater and what was baby. to be honest, neither do you (in my opinion, of course). i know we'd disagree, but much of what's wrong with CES/STFI is painfully obvious to many of us on the outside looking in. and as bright or capable or well-intentioned as those folks (the CES BOD, etc.) are, they just don't get it. and they probably never will.
surely they'd think the same of me, only worse. but there's a huge difference between us: if I'M wrong, i'm not destroying people's lives in the process.
face it, gracie. they have become just another version of twi. only worse. more twisted. somebody should stop them, before they kill again.
Basic foundation for me....what I mean by raze it to the ground.........
Decide number one if I even believe there is a God.
Second brick in that foundation is ..... can you handle *love God and Love your neighbor*?
Begin the building process from there. You don`t need any formulas or principles or classes, or research, or leaders, or ministry to *get it*
Start with that basic premiss as your *rock* and go from there.
It won`t matter then whether there were two crucified or four, or what administration we are in or if there is a trinity or not, which body of believers that we fellowship with. When you know nothing, God can teach you through everybody.
Some if you will, would go to the rubble of the demolished building and start digging out the bricks, one by one and knocking off the mortar, testing them for soundness and reuse some of their old building material. That can be somewhat limiting in the supplies that you will have available and the quality of what you build. Heck for me it was easier and faster to just to order new bricks and started all over again.
Anyway, for what it is worth, when I got rid of the arrogance of thinking that I knew it all and realised instead, that I actually knew absolutely nothing.....that was when God started working significantly in my life again. That was when the foot came of the hose after over a decade of frustration from lack of results..
Bliss you are correct...it all depends on what folks mean by *baby*
i guess i don't really expect you to get it, as simple as it is. the problem is, these guys rolled from twi right into their own thing. and though they thought they were throwing out the bathwater, the truth is, they didn't really know what was bathwater and what was baby. to be honest, neither do you (in my opinion, of course). i know we'd disagree, but much of what's wrong with CES/STFI is painfully obvious to many of us on the outside looking in. and as bright or capable or well-intentioned as those folks (the CES BOD, etc.) are, they just don't get it. and they probably never will.
surely they'd think the same of me, only worse. but there's a huge difference between us: if I'M wrong, i'm not destroying people's lives in the process.
face it, gracie. they have become just another version of twi. only worse. more twisted. somebody should stop them, before they kill again.
I'm not meaning to be coy here but, if you soak a baby in bathwater long enough - well there's a lot of baby to be found in that bathwater - and it won't be pretty.
There are times when you leave the cliches behind and just face facts. My new way of thinking is that as soon as you get man involved in God's plan, man will start trying to change that plan to look more like his own.
I'm more of the opinion that any "church" needs to be a very loose affiliation of people and not a giant organizational money making machine. Ministers should keep their day jobs until they absolutely cannot do both - and really even then they should keep their day jobs.
Whenever you try to set up a "church" you get a cart leading a horse - a lifeless thing leading a living thing. And both will keep bumping into each other.
I'm rambling here. Maybe someone like sprawled or Groucho can make some sense of my insanity.....
Sprawled out wrote...face it, gracie. they have become just another version of twi. only worse. more twisted. somebody should stop them, before they kill again.
You're quite right and I've compared them to TWI for years.
As for stopping them, someone has, praise God!
YOU all!
GreaseSpot. Capn Crunch, and the rest of you...by bringing their hidden deeds into the light.
The CES inner circle wickedness has been completely interrupted!
(I hope ENDED but without a change of heart in each individual, it can always begin again with another face.)
Setting aside for a moment the fact that Momentus hurt some people (though I have not heard the CES guys are out promoting anything at all right now), their main way of hurting people/destroying lives has been through their 'counseling', which praise God HAS ENDED (as far as I've been told). And again, they don't have 1000s of destroyed lives to their account (don't jump on me, ONE IS TOO MANY; I'm just reminding you that their influence is a blip on the radar screen compared to TWI. The hurt mostly came as you got closer to the BOD, spearheaded by Mark and KA. Cross JL and he'd dismiss you, but usually fairly kindly. Cross JS and he'd hardly notice you anyway. Cross the Gs and you're in their cross hairs.
Then.....JL and JS and DG are culpable because they swallowed the reasons/excuses/garbage the Gs would hand them about those believers. Couple that with the elitist, "we've got the best source of God's Truth" attitude, and you have people being MandA'd.
Now...let's think about what you wrote....."put your mind, your heart, if you will, someplace else for a while"
If by that you mean should each of them should step down from "Christian leadership', I agree and have posted that more than once.
Forgive my inability to construct this next question to agree with everyone's theology...give me a bit of latitude here.....
If God has placed His call for ministry into your heart should you "put your heart somewhere else for awhile" without His telling you to?
Thanks, Bliss and Rascal...for your help.
And here's another question...how do we define "Christian leadership'?
I just tried to type it quickly and found it wasn't that easy.
Don't have more time right now, so how do you all define it?
That was an easy question, at least if one is familiar with the words and wisdom of the Lord Jesus. The greatest and only leaders according to Jesus are the greatest servants. The rest are frauds, deceivers, pharisees, dictators or wannabees.
Matt 20:25-28
25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. 27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave-- 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
And here's another question...how do we define "Christian leadership'?
I just tried to type it quickly and found it wasn't that easy.
Don't have more time right now, so how do you all define it?
I'd rather let the Scriptures define it.
I Timothy 3:1-16........defines the qualities & characteristics that should be found in Christian leadership. And, verse 15 states ...that thou mayest know how thou oughtest behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Word by word, it's really clear and succinct what God's standard is.
...I like both sets of scriptures that have been presented...
I think that there are many "Christian leaders" at the GreaseSpot...do they have titles?...no. Do they run organizations?...no...but they have a heart for God and they interact with other people, while the spirit of God within them works...they help others, they respond unconditionally...
Many of us came to the realization that the body of Christ is not an organization...and any member of that body who serves others...are Christian leaders
I would not deprive the CES "leadership" from their calling of God...but perhaps they should consider working at being Christian leaders without titles, authority and the temptation to lord over other people...I would ask the question:
Is their "calling" a true call to Christian leadership?...or is it a selfish attempt to achieve a "top spot" for their own egos and insecurities?
...and I think that I would address this question more towards the Graesers than the others...but it applies to all of them...
Dooj wrote Whenever you try to set up a "church" you get a cart leading a horse - a lifeless thing leading a living thing. And both will keep bumping into each other.
That's not rambling; that's great!
The 'church' ...the organization...is a lifeless thing. That's why I've never cared one whit about any of them.
The people, however, are the living things which I do care about...both those running the lifeless things and those attending.
Thanks, Mark and Skyrider, also. Duh-hh. The CES 'leadership' that I have been around disqualfied themselves years ago by not living in accordance with the verses which clearly tell me whom I am to call 'leaders'.
So...if 'leadership' in any particular lifeless thing have disqualified themselves...and begin to wake up and change how they live, it will take time for them to earn people's trust again. It's easy not to plan more events...Camps, Weekends, etc....but during the time that they are re-building trust, one Saint at a time, do they send out a mailing admitting all that they have thus far seen, asking for forgiveness, and announcing they are geting out of leadership and closing shop? Do they then offer everything at half price, sell the furnishings and the building and split the proceeds among the mailing list (concurring with whatever legalities their 'charter' etc. includes)?
Do they send out the admission/apology mailing and ask the followers what they want them to do?
Or...something else?
Groucho you wrote they should consider working at being Christian leaders without titles, authority and the temptation to lord over other people...
So...they could keep the office open...but drop the MG-instituted 'full-service church' misnomer, go back to offering Christian 'educational' materials to whoever in a free world wants to purchase them...'counsel' or mentor absolutely NO ONE...and when ANYONE asks questions on how to live direct them ONLY to Jesus, Holy Spirit, the Word and a local church, maybe?
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
32
31
40
40
Popular Days
Dec 18
91
Dec 21
90
Dec 20
86
Dec 19
85
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 32 posts
Tom Strange 31 posts
dmiller 40 posts
therebutforgrace 40 posts
Popular Days
Dec 18 2006
91 posts
Dec 21 2006
90 posts
Dec 20 2006
86 posts
Dec 19 2006
85 posts
Popular Posts
notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
Sushi
I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
Whatsgoingon
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
Posted Images
therebutforgrace
Thanks, EP. I was in a hurry when I posted....
How they have listened to men is one of the things they are waking up to, praise God.
Gal 1:8...Though we or an angel from heaven preach another gospel unto you, let him be accursed.
As with the rest of us, their Repentance and Correction progresses the more they listen to Jesus.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Estimated Prophet
Right On Grace!
God is doing Great Things in His People!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Holy Smoke
Although I would agree with 99% of what Dr. Jeudes wrote in his article, I would not agree that the concept of personal prophecy is without biblical support. That would be like saying that because someone abused the Lord's Supper -- which we know the Corinthian church did in I Cor. 11:20 -- that you just stop doing it, that it's "bad theology" because it engenders gluttony and drunkenness and class-ism.
Dr. Jeudes did not address I Cor. 14:24, which says "But if an unbeliever or inquirer comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"
Do you think maybe Ananias told Paul the words the Lord had given to him in Acts 9:15 as an encouragement? I would think so. And apparently Timothy was given personal prophecies about his ministry I Tim. 1:18. "Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight,..."
Again, I agree that this practice can (and DID) become abusive by some. But that could be said of just about any practice in the church. I grew up in a church where baptism -- how you did it, when you did it, where you did it, what you said while doing it -- became more important than the Lord Jesus Christ! It was the litmus test of whether you were a REAL Christian. If you did not follow the pattern, you were going to Hell. Period.
Does that mean I reject baptism totally? That I throw out the baby with the baptismal water? No. It just means as I grew up and got outside that box, I learned how to put the ordinance in its rightful place.
Just food for thought. Thank you for reading and thanks to Dr. Jeudes for his article.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
True. But probably for the same reason I wouldn't, I've NEVER, EVER EVER seen it work, at least in der vey or offshoots. Did it happen to you? I'm not entirely impressed.
I don't know if it's true or not, but I read a story about a guy who wanted to be an investor. Started with about 2000 names and addresses. He makes a prediction, says "IBM stock will rise" and sends to half, sends "IBM stock will fall" and sends it to the other half.. after eight predictions, he has fifteen who will sign away their fortunes to him to invest.
Really, I think that is what we have here. I have heard the most mundane, plain WRONG "prophecies" ..
"don't worry, mah son.." sheesh, I wasn't worried about anything at the time..
I've been "ministered" to for pain that wasn't there..
With all that said, I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just saying, I've never seen it work.
As far as K.G. being "right on the money" with J.L., I think she was simply telling him what he wanted to hear.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
be honest.
even if it wont be out loud .
how many of you die hards believe that if you let this group of people go, just do not associate with stf or ces that God will love you less? or maybe just you wont know Him as well?
that the knowledge will be gone ? that there is no one eles to "really" teach the truth?
Do you (just a little bit even if not out loud?) think any other group or church will be a compromise or a lesser than?
less power? less truth less love, than anywhere eles?
why do you think this is so important? to hang on now through it all?
do you really really LOVE and have an investment in these leaders life and they yours?
REALLY????
ok think think think and be honest WHY?
i know i was in a cult how about you?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
So.. if it doesn't work, re-invent it. Prophecies fail? Don't come to pass? Simply re-invent it. Turn it into "conditional prophecy", or some such nonsense..
"well, you WOULDA felt like dirt if I didn't let you have it with this little gem.."
If you are losing a ball game, the easy way out would be to simply change the rules.
Then write a book. 101 ways to examine prophecy.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
OK...On one hand, I don't want to beat these guys to death and dance on their graves...but on the other hand I take extreme exception when I see sincere people getting bamboozeled, while the top folks get their egos stroked.
Forgive the leaders of CES/STIF ?...Sure, I can forgive them...but the real question here is are they any longer qualified to be considered "Christian leaders"???
I mean, how many cults do you have to be in before you hit bottom?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Groucho, I feel like we're telling people that Santa Claus isn't real anymore.. but t's more like they are seeing it for themselves.
Something has to die for something to live.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
therebutforgrace
Hey, pond...Quite a few of us left CES long ago, no longer look to them for spiritual knowledge, and haven't listened to a teaching in years. Quite a few of us don't consider them 'leadership', have gone to other churches for quite a while, and yet....really do love some of them and have an investment in their lives.
Groucho, quite a few of us don't think they qualify as 'leadership' anymore (as signified by our having gone elsewhere), but you're right...the thread could have purpose if folks would discuss what qualifies people for leadership and what doesn't, how someone who has been disqualified could return, to what extent, with what checks and balances, etc.
We all know that who God calls to what is His business...so I won’t argue with Him if He calls any of the CES guys again to what I might call 'leadership' (they obviously remain called to everything you and I remain called to). I can’t right now picture any of them being my ‘leadership', but I will definitely stand for their freedom from deception. I will not say they are permanently disqualified anymore than I would want someone to say that I am.
Ham, for you to make up and knock what they might have said or done, or make up and mock what they might yet say or do does not seem productive at all. They have enough real problems to work through without your hypothetical ones. Why not spend your time instead praying for their victory over our common enemy?
I’d like to see every ‘fallen’ minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ become sterling examples to the world of our God’s grace and love in allowing us to stay on His team despite our previous screw ups. Why not pray for the CES guys (and any other Wayfer or off-shooter) to be shining examples of our God’s mercy in allowing those of us who have hurt His people to not only keep breathing but to once again be trusted with representing Him?
As many have said, it will take time for these guys to realize the bulk of the error of their ways and then live differently long enough to be trusted again....but how does it help them (or Jesus) to pummel them among ourselves here at GS? We CAN help by speaking tough truths in love. By pointing out deception. By restoring in meekness. How 'bout considering this thread to be: "CES Is In A Mess, So How Can We Help Our Brothers And Sisters In Christ?"
Then, if we who are spiritual work together here at GS and maybe learn how to restore someone in the spirit of meekness considering ourselves lest we also be tempted, we will be able to offer that help to all the offshoots and every other cultish group we all run across in our lvies. Think of the impact we can have for our Father and Savior as we really DO put on the mind of Christ, and we really ARE His hands and feet in this world!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Estimated Prophet
I think if their qualifications were based solely on what is mostly being reported here,
then I can understand how one would take extreme exception to their leadership.
By "them" I am asuming you are referring to the S&T Board of Directors and their ordained clergy members.
However...
I hold John Schoenheit's integrity in the highest regard
and can not think of a more qualified Christian to man the wheel.
I've been a guest in his home and he in mine.
He measures up to Timothy and Titus as well as anyone I know.
I have had a good deal of time and experience with him with which to base my opinion.
Honest
I believe there is more good being accomplished by this minisrty that has been reported here.
Dr. Juede's report was very susinct in addressing certain problems,
but that does not refute the many genuine blessings that have been accomplished.
And Prophecy is indeed very biblical.
This is not a cult.
This is not a Santa Clause fantasy.
and honestly Pond,
I don't know of any one who actually thinks God would love them less for withdrawing from S&T.
No one I know thinks they are the only source of knowledge of the Truth.
I'm not even on their mailing list,
and haven't been directly involved in S&T for three years.
Yet I still have a very healthy relationship with all my friends still involved.
It's not a matter of being bamboozled,
It's simply a matter of loving what our Almighty God Loves.
and I take Extreme Exception to the abusive language and evil suspicions
directed against good people.
A good friend once taught...
You don't get out of the muck and the mire
by looking at the muck and the mire
while pointing to the light.
you get out of the muck and the mire
by looking at the Light
and pointing to the light.
or as Wayne Dyer says
If you change the way you look at things
the things you look at will change.
Peace
Edited by Estimated ProphetLink to comment
Share on other sites
caribousam
Hi estimated prophet, I agree with pretty much all of what you say. Unfortunately, a lot of people in the USA have this win or lose mentality which causes them to throw out the baby with the bath water. Instead of holding on to the good they've learned, some just throw it all away. In an imperfect world, this is not a great way to go. Wisdom from above is available which helps us to discern, and help us be able to keep the good while acknowleding and staying away form the bad. I've fellowshipped with many Christian groups and have been able to learn something from just about all...
cs
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
I disagree. That whole idea of holding on to the good seems to be mostly an excuse to continue trying to patch and repair what appears to be a crumbling foundation in a desperate attempt to save the structure that so much time, effort and money have been spent building.
I think that it is far better to raze the entire unsound structure to the ground and begin to build a new structure with a solid foundation.
It is tough, costly, it takes longer.....but in beginning fresh, with the skills and knowledge that you have aquired, in the end you have a solid structure that can actually withstand the storms.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
therebutforgrace
Rascal, CS, EP I don't think we're really far apart. If we substitute specifics for the idioms, we might put something together that could be very helpful.
Rascal I think your “skills and knowledge acquired” is part of EP and CS's "baby".
Let’s be specific....in CES at this time we've got 4 couples and JL who form the nucleus of an organization.
Is the bath water the deception they’ve swallowed and therefore promulgated?
Is the baby the organization?
Is the structure their organization?
Is the foundation their doctrine?
I've never thought in terms of organizations, since Christ didn't die for an organization.
I've only thought in terms of individuals...
so it's easier for me to see what's a baby and what's bath water.
The person is the baby and their thinking that has been polluted into calling evil good (and corresponding actions) is the bath water.
So, as the baby sees stronghold #1 as corrupt and begins to tear it down, out goes some of his bath water.
Using the foundation/structure analogy...I think it’s supposed to be something:
Christ is the foundation/cornerstone....the Body of Christ is the structure....the people are the Members in particular Whom Christ died for...their eternal life is what Christ bought for them...and their individual walk of sanctification in this natural life (losing their own life, dying to self, loving as Christ loved usm one thought and decison at a time, tearing down strongho9lds and leading each thought captive to what Christ would say or think or do) is how they show obedience to Him out of their joy and thankfulness for His sacrifice.
So...as each CES person sees that he/she has been deceived, he goes to the Lord and asks to be shown EVERY area. Then, one at a time, he repents (to God and to any person affected---privately, publicly as required in each instance) and begins to re-learn.
I might see 13 areas in which one CES person needs to change. I can be thankful he's on #2 or irritated that he's so slow. My choice. I know Jesus has waited years for me to come around to some things, so although I sure hope it won't take them years, I am thankful that some of them have begun.
How 'bout we take this view and try to re-construct an offering of The Road Back?
Most of us have been deceived...have had people in our lives who knew it when we didn't know it...have had help waking up...have had more than one thing to wake up about...have screwed up more than once in life...have hurt other people...have seen other people be deceived...have helped some of them wake up...etc. Although our lives might not have been as public as the Way/CES/offshoots (thank God!), our Lord did walk us through some of the same territory, didn’t He?
I would think this august body of GSers could Write The Book On it!
The Road Back.....
(by some who have traveled both directions)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sprawled out
i think it's mighty hard to separate the baby and the bathwater. if you ask me, bathwater is everywhere in CES/STFI. it's in their organization, their doctrine, their hearts.
and i agree with rascal--start over. BUT this time, take a break. a long, long break. take time to re-adjust mentally, to clear away the old mindsets--starting with the residual waybrain that became the "new" foundation. take a walk. go away. get a job. learn how to think for yourself. then, after a few YEARS, if you still feel the need to (and god willing, you won't), start afresh. AFRESH. re-examine everything. question everything. subject every assumption and conclusion to the harshest possible inspection.
and maybe, just maybe, you'll learn from your mistakes this time.
but i doubt it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
therebutforgrace
Moving past the doubt and the 'get a job' comment which has been explained here many times (JL and all CES BOD members have other jobs except Mark), be specific...'Clear away old mindsets'...'residual Waybrain'...like what?
I'll start.....
Using God's terminology.....
Pride and Self-righteousness (in man's words, elitism)....
Shown in the thought that, "We know more of the truth than anyone else" or "We more 'rightly divide' the Word than anyone else".
Who's next?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
bliss
TBFGrace,
I am not a regular contributor to this thread, or topic for that matter, but I appreciate your wisdom here. I think there are more than 2 sides to this baby/bathwater analogy for everyone.
I recently told an TWI fringer, to ''start over''. That freaked him out a little. He lost his bible with all his Way notes............His comment was ''but that is 25 years of good research down the drain." He's searching for something else other than the Way, BUT with the premise that "THE WAY HAD IT (the foundations) RIGHT." I told him to at least put it to the side for now, revisit it later, but start over learning about God without any preconceived ideas.........................(easier said then done, I know).
I think this is the issue with many. To most, the "BABY" is the doctrinal foundations. That is why most leave in search of groups like CES/CFF, because they want to hold onto that baby. But it's a flawed, to say the least, foundation.
I think even Rascal would be alluding to this by the ''start over'' comment. Since the foundations are the baby of ''the Way had it right" attitude.......
I caution, and I think you did too, that although starting over is good, doesn't mean to SCRAP GOD!
Therefore, if HE is the BABY, then, you don't throw HIM out. But, by all means if you need to scrap it all and start over, then the doctrine and practice is where to start scrapping.
Unfortunately, I have a relative that just told me that God is the baby, and they are throwing it out. ...... Getting rid of GOD.
That saddens me.
But, I will continue to love, and be graceful. (and pray)! God will find them when they are ready.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sprawled out
like EVERYTHING, gracie. i mean, GET AWAY FROM THE WHOLE THING. stop trying to "move the word," or whatever you call it. get a job--and by that i mean, a vocation other than "the ministry." put your mind, your heart, if you will, someplace else for a while. learn to think outside of the box of what you consider to be "the word." (horrors!) then, after a good long time, come back with a fresh perspective.
i guess i don't really expect you to get it, as simple as it is. the problem is, these guys rolled from twi right into their own thing. and though they thought they were throwing out the bathwater, the truth is, they didn't really know what was bathwater and what was baby. to be honest, neither do you (in my opinion, of course). i know we'd disagree, but much of what's wrong with CES/STFI is painfully obvious to many of us on the outside looking in. and as bright or capable or well-intentioned as those folks (the CES BOD, etc.) are, they just don't get it. and they probably never will.
surely they'd think the same of me, only worse. but there's a huge difference between us: if I'M wrong, i'm not destroying people's lives in the process.
face it, gracie. they have become just another version of twi. only worse. more twisted. somebody should stop them, before they kill again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Basic foundation for me....what I mean by raze it to the ground.........
Decide number one if I even believe there is a God.
Second brick in that foundation is ..... can you handle *love God and Love your neighbor*?
Begin the building process from there. You don`t need any formulas or principles or classes, or research, or leaders, or ministry to *get it*
Start with that basic premiss as your *rock* and go from there.
It won`t matter then whether there were two crucified or four, or what administration we are in or if there is a trinity or not, which body of believers that we fellowship with. When you know nothing, God can teach you through everybody.
Some if you will, would go to the rubble of the demolished building and start digging out the bricks, one by one and knocking off the mortar, testing them for soundness and reuse some of their old building material. That can be somewhat limiting in the supplies that you will have available and the quality of what you build. Heck for me it was easier and faster to just to order new bricks and started all over again.
Anyway, for what it is worth, when I got rid of the arrogance of thinking that I knew it all and realised instead, that I actually knew absolutely nothing.....that was when God started working significantly in my life again. That was when the foot came of the hose after over a decade of frustration from lack of results..
Bliss you are correct...it all depends on what folks mean by *baby*
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
I'm not meaning to be coy here but, if you soak a baby in bathwater long enough - well there's a lot of baby to be found in that bathwater - and it won't be pretty.
There are times when you leave the cliches behind and just face facts. My new way of thinking is that as soon as you get man involved in God's plan, man will start trying to change that plan to look more like his own.
I'm more of the opinion that any "church" needs to be a very loose affiliation of people and not a giant organizational money making machine. Ministers should keep their day jobs until they absolutely cannot do both - and really even then they should keep their day jobs.
Whenever you try to set up a "church" you get a cart leading a horse - a lifeless thing leading a living thing. And both will keep bumping into each other.
I'm rambling here. Maybe someone like sprawled or Groucho can make some sense of my insanity.....
Help me out here guys....please
Link to comment
Share on other sites
therebutforgrace
Sprawled out wrote...face it, gracie. they have become just another version of twi. only worse. more twisted. somebody should stop them, before they kill again.
You're quite right and I've compared them to TWI for years.
As for stopping them, someone has, praise God!
YOU all!
GreaseSpot. Capn Crunch, and the rest of you...by bringing their hidden deeds into the light.
The CES inner circle wickedness has been completely interrupted!
(I hope ENDED but without a change of heart in each individual, it can always begin again with another face.)
Setting aside for a moment the fact that Momentus hurt some people (though I have not heard the CES guys are out promoting anything at all right now), their main way of hurting people/destroying lives has been through their 'counseling', which praise God HAS ENDED (as far as I've been told). And again, they don't have 1000s of destroyed lives to their account (don't jump on me, ONE IS TOO MANY; I'm just reminding you that their influence is a blip on the radar screen compared to TWI. The hurt mostly came as you got closer to the BOD, spearheaded by Mark and KA. Cross JL and he'd dismiss you, but usually fairly kindly. Cross JS and he'd hardly notice you anyway. Cross the Gs and you're in their cross hairs.
Then.....JL and JS and DG are culpable because they swallowed the reasons/excuses/garbage the Gs would hand them about those believers. Couple that with the elitist, "we've got the best source of God's Truth" attitude, and you have people being MandA'd.
Now...let's think about what you wrote....."put your mind, your heart, if you will, someplace else for a while"
If by that you mean should each of them should step down from "Christian leadership', I agree and have posted that more than once.
Forgive my inability to construct this next question to agree with everyone's theology...give me a bit of latitude here.....
If God has placed His call for ministry into your heart should you "put your heart somewhere else for awhile" without His telling you to?
Thanks, Bliss and Rascal...for your help.
And here's another question...how do we define "Christian leadership'?
I just tried to type it quickly and found it wasn't that easy.
Don't have more time right now, so how do you all define it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
That was an easy question, at least if one is familiar with the words and wisdom of the Lord Jesus. The greatest and only leaders according to Jesus are the greatest servants. The rest are frauds, deceivers, pharisees, dictators or wannabees.
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
I'd rather let the Scriptures define it.
I Timothy 3:1-16........defines the qualities & characteristics that should be found in Christian leadership. And, verse 15 states ...that thou mayest know how thou oughtest behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Word by word, it's really clear and succinct what God's standard is.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
...I like both sets of scriptures that have been presented...
I think that there are many "Christian leaders" at the GreaseSpot...do they have titles?...no. Do they run organizations?...no...but they have a heart for God and they interact with other people, while the spirit of God within them works...they help others, they respond unconditionally...
Many of us came to the realization that the body of Christ is not an organization...and any member of that body who serves others...are Christian leaders
I would not deprive the CES "leadership" from their calling of God...but perhaps they should consider working at being Christian leaders without titles, authority and the temptation to lord over other people...I would ask the question:
Is their "calling" a true call to Christian leadership?...or is it a selfish attempt to achieve a "top spot" for their own egos and insecurities?
...and I think that I would address this question more towards the Graesers than the others...but it applies to all of them...
Edited by GrouchoMarxJrLink to comment
Share on other sites
therebutforgrace
Dooj wrote Whenever you try to set up a "church" you get a cart leading a horse - a lifeless thing leading a living thing. And both will keep bumping into each other.
That's not rambling; that's great!
The 'church' ...the organization...is a lifeless thing. That's why I've never cared one whit about any of them.
The people, however, are the living things which I do care about...both those running the lifeless things and those attending.
Thanks, Mark and Skyrider, also. Duh-hh. The CES 'leadership' that I have been around disqualfied themselves years ago by not living in accordance with the verses which clearly tell me whom I am to call 'leaders'.
So...if 'leadership' in any particular lifeless thing
have disqualified themselves...and begin to wake up and change how they live, it will take time for them to earn people's trust again. It's easy not to plan more events...Camps, Weekends, etc....but during the time that they are re-building trust, one Saint at a time, do they send out a mailing admitting all that they have thus far seen, asking for forgiveness, and announcing they are geting out of leadership and closing shop? Do they then offer everything at half price, sell the furnishings and the building and split the proceeds among the mailing list (concurring with whatever legalities their 'charter' etc. includes)?
Do they send out the admission/apology mailing and ask the followers what they want them to do?
Or...something else?
Groucho you wrote they should consider working at being Christian leaders without titles, authority and the temptation to lord over other people...
So...they could keep the office open...but drop the MG-instituted 'full-service church' misnomer, go back to offering Christian 'educational' materials to whoever in a free world wants to purchase them...'counsel' or mentor absolutely NO ONE...and when ANYONE asks questions on how to live direct them ONLY to Jesus, Holy Spirit, the Word and a local church, maybe?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.