"...you shoulda stayed in South Florida growing your your window washing business and buying Florida real estate instead of leaving 15 years ago to do the CES/Stiffy thing. Today you'd be as rich as God me! I hollerd and I hollered and I hollered but you didn't hear me."
"OMGl, even I'm even considering getting a condo there and doing the beach thing for a while. (I deserve a freaking break from all this insanity)."
"After you get fired, I recommend you contact your old friend John down there and he might be able to hook you up. I would give you his contact info but I don't hear from him too much lately. Tell him he's gonna be sorry if he don't give me some quality time. "
Here is Mark's letter from SIX YEARS AGO to John, Mark and John for the benefit of those who do not want to wade through the whole thread:
Pawtucket asked me about the origins of CES and personal prophecy. Here is a letter that I wrote to the 3 CES leaders in Novemeber of 2000. Jeff, if you are out there you would especially benefit by reading this.
Dear John Schoenheit, John Lynn and Mark Graeser:
In an E-mail dated October 25, John Schoenheit asked me the following: “I am unclear about exactly what doctrines you think we teach in error. Please let me know.” In response to this I have written the following to all three of the CES brethren. This was originally E-Mailed to John Schoenheit on November 1, 2000.
The root cause of all doctrinal error by CES on the subject of prophecy, as I see it, is the unbiblical reasoning stemming from the phrase “eat the fish and throw away the bones” and all reasoning related to this. The context of this statement is that which was learned from and grafted into CES doctrine by Christian International out of Florida. In fact, these are the very words of their president Bill Hamon, and this phrase has been used by CES people. First of all, you and I both know that this is an unbiblical phrase. Instead I want you to be aware of the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 7:15-23.
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
New International Version
If these words are good enough for Jesus Christ to have taught his disciples when he was training and teaching them in preparation for the age of grace and receiving of the holy spirit, then why wouldn’t they be good enough for you and I? I want to especially bring your attention to the phrase, “by their fruit you will recognize them.” The bible says in Galations 5:22-23 that there are nine fruits of the spirit.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
King James Version
Since Bill Hamon, by his own words, claims to be a prophet and a trainer of aspiring prophets let’s look at the fruit of some prophets in the bible for comparison. Moses happens to be my favorite prophet in the bible, other than Jesus Christ of course, and the prophet that most people are familiar with the life of.
Num 12:3
3Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.
King James Version
Num 12:3
Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.
New International Version
Moses was not a great speaker. In fact, he had his own brother, Aaron speak for him often. The one and only quality that I know of, that separated Moses from every other man on the face of the earth was his meekness and humility. For a prophet the fruit of meekness and the heart felt attitude of humility is especially important. The reason is obvious. He has to be especially meek with God to be able to receive his Word. If he is not he could fall into all kinds of doctrinal error, unbelief and even idolatry and worship of false gods.
Jesus Christ was also known for his meekness and was especially compassionate with people.
Matt 11:29
29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I (Christ) am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
The principle of meekness for receiving God’s Word is very clear for all believers regardless of their function in the body of Christ.
James 1:21
21Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
King James Version
James 3:13-18
13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.
New International Version
The above is the kind of knowledge that we should seek, and not any knowledge which is even border line puffed up or full of conceit. Didn’t we get enough of this kind of knowledge in our years in the Way Ministry where we were always bragging that our knowledge of the bible was better than everyone else and hence our ministry was better also? Didn’t this kind of pride lead to its downfall?
Prov 11:2 continues,
2When pride comes, then comes disgrace,
but with humility comes wisdom.
New International Version
Ps 25:9
9The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
King James Version
1 Peter 5:5-6
5Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
6Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
King James Version
Clearly, if we want to receive anything from God, especially His Word, we must be meek and humble for “God resisteth the proud.” This is especially true for someone who claims to be a prophet. Now I want you to look at some of the words of Bill Hamon, the man who claims to be a prophet. By your own words, this is the man from whom you are getting some of your material on prophecy as he is the president of Christian International. I ask you, are his words below the words of a man of meekness and humility or the words of someone with puffed up reasoning? Are these the words of a prophet of God or the words of a false prophet? Below are just a few samples.
Hamon explains on pages 59 and 60 of his book, “Prophets and the Prophetic Movement.”
The Prophetic movement is part of the Holy Spirit’s continuing work of bringing the Church to full restoration. The restoration of Christ’s ascension gift of a prophet is absolutely essential for God’s purpose in the Church to be accomplished.
The company of prophets will help restore the apostles back into their rightful place in the Church. The full restoration of apostles and prophets back into the Church will then bring divine order, unity, purity and maturity to the corporate Body of Christ. The saints will be equipped and activated in the supernatural power of God to be a witness and demonstration to all nations of the powerful kingdom of God. That will in turn bring about the end of this world system of humanity and Satan’s rule.
The fulfillment of all these will release Christ, who has been seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven, to return literally and set up His everlasting Kingdom over all the earth. As the prophet Daniel foretold, the stone (the Church) that was hewn out of the mountain (Christ) will continue to grow in strength and momentum like the snowball rolling down the mountain, until it hits the feet of the giant world empires, causing them to crumble and come into submission to Christ.
The above Hamon doctrine does not magnify, nor hold to, the head of the body, which is Christ and is even worse than the old Way teaching that we take the place of the absent Christ by the renewing of our minds. It implies that the Lord Jesus Christ won’t return for or gather his Church without the works and dominion of the Church, and that somehow the Church must release Christ from heaven. How arrogant and utterly false.
In his book Prophets and the Prophetic Movement, page 57 Hamon says,
In the wilderness journey the people were covered and protected by a cloud by day and warmed, enlightened and directed by a fire by night. But for the Prophetic Movement in Canaan, the Apostle is the covering and protecting cloud and the Prophet is the enlightening and directing fire. That is one reason why apostles and prophets must be restored before the Church can fulfill its predestinated end-time purpose on earth.
Also written in his book Prophets and the Prophetic Movement, page 7 it says on Oct. 1, 1953, Bill Hamon received these words of personal prophecy concerning his ministry:
“Yea, is not this the day that thou shalt go forth in His might and His Power? Have I not said in My Word Concerning My own children, “Ye are gods,” and yea in these last days ye shall go forth as gods? Thou shalt go forth as gods with power in thine hands, and minister life and faith unto those that are desolate. Yea, I say unto thee, thou shalt be a leader of leaders. Yea, thou shalt see multitudes running unto thee, for as a light upon a tall hill shalt thou be. Yea, fear shall be in the hearts of those round about thee, yet thou shalt stand as one full of courage, saith the Lord.”
No mention is made by Hamon that God was speaking derogatorily to the judges of Israel when he said “ye are gods.” Furthermore, He did not subsequently bless them with power in their hands.” In context Psalms 82:5-7 reads,
5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
King James Version
The only other usage of “ye are gods” in the old testament is Isaiah 41:23. In context, Isaiah 41:21-24 reads,
21Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. 22Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.
23Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
24Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.
King James Version
Regarding these scriptures, from the Wycliffe bible commentary it reads,
Turning now to idol-worshiping Gentiles, Jehovah challenges them to prove the reality and power of their idols by the test of prophecy and fulfillment (v. 22). His people charge these false gods with being utterly unable to fore-announce their will and purpose, through their prophets, and then carry it out.
Whoever spoke this prophecy of Bill Hamon’s early ministry above, spoke it like an in the flesh false prophet of biblical proportions. This is not something to be proud of to say the least. Neither would you expect the recipient of such a prophecy to “go forth” with anything but arrogance and false pride.
The worst part of Hamon’s teachings, however, may be his excuses for false prophecies. I understand he has over 600 pages consisting of over 150,000 words of personal prophecy concerning himself that he has collected over the years. With so much prophecy, I can understand why he needs to make excuses for inaccurate errant ones. If his original prophecy above was contrary to the Word of God, why should subsequent prophecies be any better? With so much error in doctrine and prophecies, why should you learn from him, his subordinates or associates? Couldn’t you learn from better sources or work the Word of God for yourself?
From Hamon’s book Prophets and Personal Prophecy page 158 it reads,
At the time, we must not be quick to call someone a false prophet simply because something he said was inaccurate or did not seem to apply to us. The man may be honest, righteous, and upright, yet immature in his prophesying. He may have misinterpreted what the Lord was saying.
In this case we should say that he gave an inaccurate word or a false prophecy, but we cannot properly call him a false prophet unless we can prove that the man himself is false. Missing it a few times in prophecy does not make a false prophet. No mortal prophet is infallible; all are liable to make mistakes.
Where is this in the bible? How does this compare to Deuteronomy 18:18-22?
18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" 22If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
New International Version
You asked me what doctrines do I think CES has been teaching in error. Like Bill Hamon, have you been teaching that prophecy isn't always 100 percent accurate? What about in the bible when a prophet of God says “thus says the Lord”, “thus says the Holy Spirit”, or “this is what the Lord says.” Are they speaking falsely or truly?
Gee John R maybe you can help us all out - we can start an investment club like that billionaire from Omaha, and buy beachfront property together - and then make money together - instead of donating money to a MOG!!!
Richard
Personal Prophecy to Mark G. from God
Thus Seth the Lord
"...you shoulda stayed in South Florida growing your your window washing business and buying Florida real estate instead of leaving 15 years ago to do the CES/Stiffy thing. Today you'd be as rich as God me! I hollerd and I hollered and I hollered but you didn't hear me."
"OMGl, even I'm even considering getting a condo there and doing the beach thing for a while. (I deserve a freaking break from all this insanity)."
"After you get fired, I recommend you contact your old friend John down there and he might be able to hook you up. I would give you his contact info but I don't hear from him too much lately. Tell him he's gonna be sorry if he don't give me some quality time. "
i'm sure people find those books, and others like them, helpful. but i would suggest to elizabeth and whoever else that this might be a good time to steer clear of others' remedies. and do the thing that "believers" of all stripes seem so loathe to do--look within YOURSELF for the strength, the validation, you need. looking elsewhere is what got you in this mess to begin with. i know this is the opposite of what twi, ces and others insist is true ("you need a standard of truth outside of yourself..."). but my experience (oh, no! not the dreaded "experience!") is, if it doesn't come from inside YOU, it can easily be taken away again, by the next seemingly well-intentioned group with "answers." but if you find what you need within yourself, building your own reasoned stronghold, NO ONE can take it from you.
if this seems to fly in the face of "casting down imaginations" and all that, i'm not saying you should fortify yourself against the knowledge of God--just against those who claim they have access to that knowledge that you do not.
Three of the 5 books are dealing with "Jezebel"...
...Is there an implication that Karen Graeser has a Jezebel spirit?...sounds about right to me.
Yes, the name that many use for the control spirit.
Seems almost impossible for ex-twi to escape their influence because they invariably want to lord it over others because they think they're smarter, more spiritual, in charge of, fill in the blank (really more arrogant) than the flock.
Witches, spells and the like do exist, but even without those, witchcraft ---control--- is alive and well all over the world and in the Church.
I can't pretend to say I know much about witches or spells or the like to comment much on the quote above, but I think we all know people who claim to be leaders but are nothing more than clowns. One doesn't have to read through their letters or listen to them much to realize these clowns are hell bent on imposing their will on others. They just use people. That's all they can - and that's all they will ever do.
Make no mistake about it; you are absolutely of no value to them unless they can impose their will on you. If you refuse and stand up to them then you are either thrown out or you are asked to leave. Don't ever go thinking they will be polite about it, because it's not a fellowship anymore than a church. People, I'm afraid the fact of the matter today is; the Christian church has become nothing but a god-damn circus!
I think we are being too polite calling them clowns. The truth is: they are crooks! A clown who refuses to change is nothing but a crook, and they certainly have no intention about changing themselves. Oh well. What can or could one ever expect to find in a circus anyway; except a bunch of clowns and con artists out working the crowd.
WB, you are 1000% right...(but don't get arrogant about it).
Whatever you say, Ms. Grace, but if I were arrogant I would probably be the last one to know about it
The Road to Redemption is paved with Humility and Repentance.
Let's pray that the folks at CES quickly get on it.
I will have to differ with you on this point because my savior redeemed me/us/them a long time ago and I personally don't believe that can ever be taken away from me/us/them. Yes, we all need humility and repententance because we all sin and come short of the grace of God, but most of us will need to hit rock bottom before that happens. Since it is good for us all to experience an awakening (i.e. it's hard to see where we have missed it in our own lives), I rarely set out to try to rescue a brother or sister anymore. We all will learn our lessons when we are ready, not when we're manipulated into "seeing" what others want us to see.
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organization.
For those in STFI who do not like it that people post anonymously should realize there is a reason. We are concerned that certain other people in STFI will not like our opinion and we have seen what has happened to others who have previously voiced their opinion like St*ne, Carl*on and many others.
I am not surprised that the current strife has reached this point. When you set up a prophetic council so you as an individual are not accountable for your false prophecies (Karen G) there will be issues. When you believe that prophecies do not have to be 100% accurate to be from God it gives the "head" of the council a way to say what they want without being accountable for "prophecy" that does not come true. Even though the "prophecy" had a negative result on the people receiving it. What about those people? Where is the accountability SFTI is supposed to have or say they have?
The prophecy issue has always been there. It reached the current strife level because several board members had negative prophecy against them by TR and KG. and these board members put that "prophecy" in the false prophecy catagory. The result is that many times the prophectic and the prophetic council in STFI has elevated itself over and above the standard of writings in the Bible. Throw in their sometimes false intrepretation of dreams that is way out of balance and you have the current chaos.
A Baptist friend of mine first told me of the Jezebel spirit. A woman came into their lives and destroyed their marriage and she was explaining it to me -- I always associate that with a charming spirit.
Has anyone read these books? I am interestet. Not in all 5 maybe, but maybe looking into one of them
in addition to the Prophetic Council (picture the Jedi Knight roundtable?) there had also been an imposition of extra-biblical standards and requirements from some camps. i say that this too was elevated above the standard of the word, because it was made equivalent to the word. things like momentus (call it whatever you want - it was still momentus), 12 steps, counseling, group therapy, often in alignment to what MG was having to study in school.
these things were being incorporated into many areas and the buzz was that they would be 'required' for ordination and leadership positions. also people that completed them walked away with false authority 'over' others when they became 'group leaders' for the next program - like they could judge which programs YOU needed to be in because they now had some more earthly knowledge (gnosis). you could see this filling some empty hole left in a heart by insecurity or a feeling of having sqandered so many years in TWI and not having a career or completed an educational program. danger will robinson.
the continued justification for these programs that i had heard were the 'strong results.' i object. anthony robbins can charge $50,000 for an evening and get a group of realestate developers from florida to walk on hot coals, speak up boldy in negotiations, and leave their spouse for the 'right relationship.' they all think they got some serious results too but it doesn't have anything to do with the Bible. the grand results that the world will settle for cannot be compared to what God offers through Christ.
the sides of this programatic approach seemed to be primarily divided along the same lines as the board split. several of those who appear to be the prevailing 'post-vote' board members have already spoken against the elevation of programs over a bible based standard. considering that some people regularly going to 12 step meetings can report that speakers often speak against christianity as 'not ever helping them' i can only hope this 'counsel' gets reappraised.
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notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
Sushi
I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
Whatsgoingon
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
Posted Images
igotout
Personal Prophecy to Mark G. from God
Thus Seth the Lord
"...you shoulda stayed in South Florida growing your your window washing business and buying Florida real estate instead of leaving 15 years ago to do the CES/Stiffy thing. Today you'd be as rich as God me! I hollerd and I hollered and I hollered but you didn't hear me."
"OMGl, even I'm even considering getting a condo there and doing the beach thing for a while. (I deserve a freaking break from all this insanity)."
"After you get fired, I recommend you contact your old friend John down there and he might be able to hook you up. I would give you his contact info but I don't hear from him too much lately. Tell him he's gonna be sorry if he don't give me some quality time. "
Good luck! "
God
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washingtonweather
:lol:
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Tom Strange
Here is Mark's letter from SIX YEARS AGO to John, Mark and John for the benefit of those who do not want to wade through the whole thread:
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richnchrispy
Gee John R maybe you can help us all out - we can start an investment club like that billionaire from Omaha, and buy beachfront property together - and then make money together - instead of donating money to a MOG!!!
Richard
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Captain Crunch
Elizabeth recommended these books for those of us that have been close to this insanity. They have helped her recover.
Please if you read one, tell me what you think.
Christian Psychology's War on God's Word: The Victimization of the Believer
by Jim Owen
Breaking Christian Curses: Finding Freedom from Destructive Prayers
by Dennis Cramer, Francis Frangipane (Foreword by)
Confronting Jezebel: Discerning and Defeating the Spirit of Control
by Steve Sampson
Unmasking the Jezebel Spirit
by John Paul Jackson
Jezebel, Seducing Goddess of War
by Jonas A. Clark
CC
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batcave
Geez, what a sad, sad world where there's an entire book on breaking destructive Christian prayers.
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dmiller
I agree. What is MOST saddening about the proposition -- is that it had to be written in the first place.
:(
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sprawled out
i'm sure people find those books, and others like them, helpful. but i would suggest to elizabeth and whoever else that this might be a good time to steer clear of others' remedies. and do the thing that "believers" of all stripes seem so loathe to do--look within YOURSELF for the strength, the validation, you need. looking elsewhere is what got you in this mess to begin with. i know this is the opposite of what twi, ces and others insist is true ("you need a standard of truth outside of yourself..."). but my experience (oh, no! not the dreaded "experience!") is, if it doesn't come from inside YOU, it can easily be taken away again, by the next seemingly well-intentioned group with "answers." but if you find what you need within yourself, building your own reasoned stronghold, NO ONE can take it from you.
if this seems to fly in the face of "casting down imaginations" and all that, i'm not saying you should fortify yourself against the knowledge of God--just against those who claim they have access to that knowledge that you do not.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Three of the 5 books are dealing with "Jezebel"...
...Is there an implication that Karen Graeser has a Jezebel spirit?...sounds about right to me.
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alfakat
or " swatrattra" in the Aramaic......
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waterbuffalo
Yes, the name that many use for the control spirit.
Seems almost impossible for ex-twi to escape their influence because they invariably want to lord it over others because they think they're smarter, more spiritual, in charge of, fill in the blank (really more arrogant) than the flock.
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therebutforgrace
WB, you are 1000% right...(but don't get arrogant about it).
The Fall made us Selfish...we want our own way from birth.
Control is how we try to get it.
Control is witchcraft.
Galatians says witchcraft is a work of the flesh.
Witches, spells and the like do exist, but even without those, witchcraft ---control--- is alive and well all over the world and in the Church.
Couple Selfishness (wanting my own way) with Pride (my way is the best way) and you have a vicious partnership.
Fuel it with Religion (my way is God's way) and you get the "calling evil good" that we've all seen in one-too-many cults.
The Road to Redemption is paved with Humility and Repentance.
Let's pray that the folks at CES quickly get on it.
After all, God's mercies are new every morning.
And that's a good thing, since some of us need them at least that often.
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sprawled out
wouldn't it really be the other way around?? isn't "wanting our own way" (i'm eating that fruit, no matter what god says) what caused the fall?
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What The Hey
I can't pretend to say I know much about witches or spells or the like to comment much on the quote above, but I think we all know people who claim to be leaders but are nothing more than clowns. One doesn't have to read through their letters or listen to them much to realize these clowns are hell bent on imposing their will on others. They just use people. That's all they can - and that's all they will ever do.
Make no mistake about it; you are absolutely of no value to them unless they can impose their will on you. If you refuse and stand up to them then you are either thrown out or you are asked to leave. Don't ever go thinking they will be polite about it, because it's not a fellowship anymore than a church. People, I'm afraid the fact of the matter today is; the Christian church has become nothing but a god-damn circus!
I think we are being too polite calling them clowns. The truth is: they are crooks! A clown who refuses to change is nothing but a crook, and they certainly have no intention about changing themselves. Oh well. What can or could one ever expect to find in a circus anyway; except a bunch of clowns and con artists out working the crowd.
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waterbuffalo
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therebutforgrace
Good points, Sprawled, Hey and WB...
Shoulda said...
...We all have a Selfish nature: "I want my way"...
...Witchcraft doesn't have to be witches and spells, but simply "I want to control things so I get my way"....
and
...The Road away from Control is paved with Humility and Repentance.
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Whatsgoingon
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organization.
For those in STFI who do not like it that people post anonymously should realize there is a reason. We are concerned that certain other people in STFI will not like our opinion and we have seen what has happened to others who have previously voiced their opinion like St*ne, Carl*on and many others.
I am not surprised that the current strife has reached this point. When you set up a prophetic council so you as an individual are not accountable for your false prophecies (Karen G) there will be issues. When you believe that prophecies do not have to be 100% accurate to be from God it gives the "head" of the council a way to say what they want without being accountable for "prophecy" that does not come true. Even though the "prophecy" had a negative result on the people receiving it. What about those people? Where is the accountability SFTI is supposed to have or say they have?
The prophecy issue has always been there. It reached the current strife level because several board members had negative prophecy against them by TR and KG. and these board members put that "prophecy" in the false prophecy catagory. The result is that many times the prophectic and the prophetic council in STFI has elevated itself over and above the standard of writings in the Bible. Throw in their sometimes false intrepretation of dreams that is way out of balance and you have the current chaos.
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waterbuffalo
Welcome to gs, What'sGoingOn!
Have a cup of mocha on me!
wb
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Dot Matrix
A Baptist friend of mine first told me of the Jezebel spirit. A woman came into their lives and destroyed their marriage and she was explaining it to me -- I always associate that with a charming spirit.
Has anyone read these books? I am interestet. Not in all 5 maybe, but maybe looking into one of them
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waterbuffalo
The Jezebel ones are pretty good.
Curses and Psychology not very, imho.
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excathedra
hey whatsgoinon
bad god
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therebutforgrace
Thanks so much for the out loud laugh, excath...
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excathedra
ps. i've known a few men named jezebel :)
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1broken1
in addition to the Prophetic Council (picture the Jedi Knight roundtable?) there had also been an imposition of extra-biblical standards and requirements from some camps. i say that this too was elevated above the standard of the word, because it was made equivalent to the word. things like momentus (call it whatever you want - it was still momentus), 12 steps, counseling, group therapy, often in alignment to what MG was having to study in school.
these things were being incorporated into many areas and the buzz was that they would be 'required' for ordination and leadership positions. also people that completed them walked away with false authority 'over' others when they became 'group leaders' for the next program - like they could judge which programs YOU needed to be in because they now had some more earthly knowledge (gnosis). you could see this filling some empty hole left in a heart by insecurity or a feeling of having sqandered so many years in TWI and not having a career or completed an educational program. danger will robinson.
the continued justification for these programs that i had heard were the 'strong results.' i object. anthony robbins can charge $50,000 for an evening and get a group of realestate developers from florida to walk on hot coals, speak up boldy in negotiations, and leave their spouse for the 'right relationship.' they all think they got some serious results too but it doesn't have anything to do with the Bible. the grand results that the world will settle for cannot be compared to what God offers through Christ.
the sides of this programatic approach seemed to be primarily divided along the same lines as the board split. several of those who appear to be the prevailing 'post-vote' board members have already spoken against the elevation of programs over a bible based standard. considering that some people regularly going to 12 step meetings can report that speakers often speak against christianity as 'not ever helping them' i can only hope this 'counsel' gets reappraised.
real deliverence comes through Jesus.
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