the Lord showed me long ago that I was hungering and thirsting after righteousness back in The Day, and that PFAL was His beginning to fill me.
this could get us way off topic (30+ pages later), but it's also very topical, because it ties into the whole personal prophecy thing ("the lord told me...").
you were hungering and thirsting, and God led you to a stolen class taught by a lying plagiarist? because as long as you get "the word" it doesn't matter where it came from? because he had no better option? because he was unaware of where the outfit was heading?
i'm sorry, therebut, but i think that's a deeply flawed position. especially if you think the lord showed it to you. yes, it's only my opinion. but you might think about it.
I had a similar experience. I know God led me to TWI. But now I know I wasn't meant to stay as long as I did.
I was 15 and was with a friend driving around sharing idle conversation. I said, I wonder what B++ S+++++++ is doing. Then as I turned my head to look out the window, there he was standing on the tree lawn in front of a McDonald's. Now, I was not in my town and had not seen this person for almost a year. And I was not a bible thumper yet. But I knew in my heart this was significant. We pulled into the parking lot and had a very interesting conversation. I took PFAL 4 days later. This was pre-Way Corps and a much different environment.
God has an amazing way of doing what He can with what He has.
... you were hungering and thirsting, and God led you to a stolen class taught by a lying plagiarist? because as long as you get "the word" it doesn't matter where it came from? because he had no better option? ...
Yes indeed, that was the option that was there from God and thousands of folks benefitted from it, even though a flawed human being communicated it.
because he was unaware of where the outfit was heading?
Yes, God was aware. He also knew that King Solomon was headed toward some of the most vile idolatrous behavior imaginable after he received Proverbs.
Yet, God had Solomon write Proverbs, for those of us who believe it.
God's love and grace is so big that he communicates his Word through sinners like us.
so let me tell you about this bridge. it's in Brooklyn. not even 125 years old. and i can let you have it, for the rock-bottom price...
i'm sorry, but it's out-and-out ridiculous to me. how can you have the benefit of all this hindsight and still insist on believing that God would intentionally put you in harm's way--at the mercy of a lying, stealing, cheating lunatic--KNOWING that you were too ignorant and inexperienced to separate wheat from chaff, AND that you'd waste precious years of your life there, thinking it was "HIS" ministry?
... believing that God would intentionally put you in harm's way ...
I don't believe that at all.
But, living in this world exposed to evil, there's going to be sin, there's going to be sickness, there's going to be suffering and death. I certainly wouldn't say I understand everything about the way God allows all this to happen; but, I have seen demonstrated that his Word has been communicated through people who have sinned. In fact, we wouldn't have the word at all without men and women who have sinned.
Don't know why that seems so difficult for some to accept.
Oldies, I have to totally back you up here. When biblical examples are used, the common retort is that "Vic was no King David or King Solomon". Well, that doesn't wash with me. I know that he was neither. But since the argument is about "flawed humans" communicating God's Word, I my self cannot but help to bring up Solomon, David, et al. For, they were very flawed humans (David a murderer), and yet God still worked within them to will and to do of His good pleasure. God knew what path David would go down, yet still helped him slay Goliath of Gath when he was but a stripling...
true enough but still, God has communicated his word through flawed human beings.
Well.......since you're putting vpw into the "flawed human being" category, it's certainly ALOT closer to reality than classifying him as The Teacher or The Man of God or The One who received unknown truths that hadn't been known since the First Century.
Thanks, Oldies........associating victor paul wierwille as a "flawed human being".....on the same level as others..... is a major step down from the self-appointed perch of pfal.
"Flawed human being" is a euphemism designed to detract from the truth that the man was a manipulative predator who deliberately hurt God's people in His name.
Well the guys trained by Jesus himself certainly fell flat after awhile.. I don't think that there will ever be any Christian ministry that will stay tight and intact and helpful all the way through to the Gathering Together. It's those dang Humans that mess it all up ya know...
Interesting Jonny - consider this. History and tradtion speak to one thing about "the 12". They all died for their faith. Not a one of them is said to have gone back on their witness of Christ the resurrected savior, after His resurrection and ascension. Even when threatened with death.
Bartholemew-he doesn't get a lot of air time in the epistles. Yet he was called "without deceit" by Jesus. Not a bad report card.
All those guys died martyrs for their beliefs, as history and tradition tells it. If we compared all the so-called "Christian Ministries" today and what's being done by them to those guys, a lot would fall way short I think.
Key to their lives was that while they struggled at times something changed them to the point that they never changed their minds later in life. They died, some more or less alone, absolutely convinced that Jesus Christ was the son of God.
If - that's true, it would account for why the gospel didn't fade out. Different viewpoints may have cropped up but on the basic witness of Jesus Christ, son of God, savior, died, risen and ascended, there seems to have been no disagreement.
That's the "core message" that's been passed on, and again if church history is right, at the expense of their own lives. It's been said that you'd think at least one of them would have backed off, changed their story, given up to save their own lives especially given that some died far from home. Who'd have known? They could have just faded out and gone on with what life they had left.
But they didn't and it figures in as the one singular fact in the whole story. They understood who Jesus Christ really was.
Without that - some sense at the least of who He was and is to us, there's not much left. The rest can be discussed forever. Out of that living real relationship those guys (and many others) maintained comes all the rest of it - churches, rituals, etc. etc. But there's no gospel of Christ without Christ.
I've often thought that's still the whole idea of it. All the rest comes and goes. Christ - the way, truth, the life, the son of God - that's it, that's the point of contact that we either make or don't make. And if they're any example you're right - it won't be a sleigh ride a lot of the time. It's amazing anyone thinks it should or will be, really.
"Flawed human being" is a euphemism designed to detract from the truth that the man was a manipulative predator who deliberately hurt God's people in His name.
I thought this post was worth repeating...
...There's a big difference between those who point Christ out to others...and those who seek recognition for themselves as being self proclaimed "ministers of Christ".
God judges men's hearts but He also expects us to use the bullsh* t meter that he gave us.
All those guys died martyrs for their beliefs, as history and tradition tells it. If we compared all the so-called "Christian Ministries" today and what's being done by them to those guys, a lot would fall way short I think.
Key to their lives was that while they struggled at times something changed them to the point that they never changed their minds later in life. They died, some more or less alone, absolutely convinced that Jesus Christ was the son of God.
I've often thought that's still the whole idea of it. All the rest comes and goes. Christ - the way, truth, the life, the son of God - that's it, that's the point of contact that we either make or don't make. And if they're any example you're right - it won't be a sleigh ride a lot of the time. It's amazing anyone thinks it should or will be, really.
ah Socks, you had to bring it up!
I just did a study on the early Christian martyrs, and I tell you, I am not sure that many in this day and age fit into these categories. I had to really dig deep to see if I could face an inquisition, on pain of death, and NOT deny my Lord! What they went through is awe-inspiring.
We are to be a ''living'' sacrifice, for sure. So have I sacrificed my life for Him? Have I put away all that holds me back? My pride, my feelings, my hurts, my worries, my fears, my ''stuff'' from Pier One???????
There are many Christians still being persecuted today throughout the world, that are hiding out in basements, and holes in the ground just to study the bible together! They are being persecuted for believing in Christ.
And here we are, discussing this group that has persucuted their own in the name of Christ!
i can't make the "distinction" you're able to, oldies. to me, if God led people to twi, he put them in harm's way. period.
I have seen demonstrated that his Word has been communicated through people who have sinned. In fact, we wouldn't have the word at all without men and women who have sinned.
Don't know why that seems so difficult for some to accept.
EVERYBODY'S "sinned." but not everybody did the things vpw did. there's a huge difference, to me, between a flawed human being and a predator. i don't know why THAT seems so difficult for some to accept!
We are to be a ''living'' sacrifice, for sure. So have I sacrificed my life for Him? Have I put away all that holds me back? My pride, my feelings, my hurts, my worries, my fears, my ''stuff'' from Pier One???????
I've got work to do, that's for sure. ;) It is inspiring and humbling to look at their lives.
For me taking an honest look at what 'churches' and other ministries do has helped me to see what all is "available", if I can use that word and I guess I did. Life can be tough, at best - how can we help ourselves and others get the most out of it?
There's a quality that I've been struggling to find the words for - non-intrusive support is the best I've come up with. Where the fellowship and friendship is built on the example of love we see in the bible amongst Jesus and his followers in the gospels, and Acts and the epistles. Where people working together don't insist their own will on others, but try to help others find the "will of God" and live by their own decisions. And enjoy life as they choose to live it as much as they can.
The church is made up of the members, everyone. When "a church" is what a group of leaders makes it, that's only a very small piece of the pie, it's the piece that those leaders have to contribute. So the question comes to mind, do we know what a leader of "a" church in the bigger body of believers should be contributing, with what they themselves have to offer?
Overall "the" church is described as being very diverse with all of the members contributing their part, and everyone together making up a body that's 'run' and infused by the 'real' leader, Christ. Through His leadership we make a church that glorifies God. I'd assume that by the description in Ephesians that glory is fulfilled and realized when all of the participants are allowed to be engaged and functioning. We don't all do the same thing, we can't, we're not designed to.
From the outside looking in, it's absolute chaos at times, I'm sure. Except when group activities are planned, like Sundays when so much of the Christian world gets in their cars and hits the road. Sundays are like the Parade of Cars or something. But that can't be all there is to the organization of the church.
I had a "dream" once, a waking one. Where the seemingly chaotic disorder became fluid, like a huge ball of yarn that was impossibly tangled and suddenly the whole continuous strand moved like liguid and smoothed out, back and forth, back and forth. It looked pretty weird at first to my mind's eye but was actually pretty cool.
As individual members we have to be allowed to do "our part", or else we can't fulfill our purpose as a whole group. On one hand that makes for a very laborious effort if any one of us tries to get it all in order. That's not our job, that job is taken by Christ. If we could provide the right support for that to each one of us, we could see if this whole thing really "works" as designed.
I think looking at the early church gives us a view of how diverse all this can really be. It would seem that regardless of what we do or encounter, God's purposes can be realized if we maintain the right focus. What is God through Christ doing in us and what are we doing? That's a very delicate fragile process, without loving support that ball of yarn's going to look like the cat had it's way with it, y'know?
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sprawled out
this could get us way off topic (30+ pages later), but it's also very topical, because it ties into the whole personal prophecy thing ("the lord told me...").
you were hungering and thirsting, and God led you to a stolen class taught by a lying plagiarist? because as long as you get "the word" it doesn't matter where it came from? because he had no better option? because he was unaware of where the outfit was heading?
i'm sorry, therebut, but i think that's a deeply flawed position. especially if you think the lord showed it to you. yes, it's only my opinion. but you might think about it.
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richnchrispy
ThereButForGrace,
This is Chrispy!
I had a similar experience. I know God led me to TWI. But now I know I wasn't meant to stay as long as I did.
I was 15 and was with a friend driving around sharing idle conversation. I said, I wonder what B++ S+++++++ is doing. Then as I turned my head to look out the window, there he was standing on the tree lawn in front of a McDonald's. Now, I was not in my town and had not seen this person for almost a year. And I was not a bible thumper yet. But I knew in my heart this was significant. We pulled into the parking lot and had a very interesting conversation. I took PFAL 4 days later. This was pre-Way Corps and a much different environment.
God has an amazing way of doing what He can with what He has.
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oldiesman
Yes indeed, that was the option that was there from God and thousands of folks benefitted from it, even though a flawed human being communicated it.
Yes, God was aware. He also knew that King Solomon was headed toward some of the most vile idolatrous behavior imaginable after he received Proverbs.
Yet, God had Solomon write Proverbs, for those of us who believe it.
God's love and grace is so big that he communicates his Word through sinners like us.
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sprawled out
ah, i see.
so let me tell you about this bridge. it's in Brooklyn. not even 125 years old. and i can let you have it, for the rock-bottom price...
i'm sorry, but it's out-and-out ridiculous to me. how can you have the benefit of all this hindsight and still insist on believing that God would intentionally put you in harm's way--at the mercy of a lying, stealing, cheating lunatic--KNOWING that you were too ignorant and inexperienced to separate wheat from chaff, AND that you'd waste precious years of your life there, thinking it was "HIS" ministry?
that's love? that's NUTS.
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oldiesman
I don't believe that at all.
But, living in this world exposed to evil, there's going to be sin, there's going to be sickness, there's going to be suffering and death. I certainly wouldn't say I understand everything about the way God allows all this to happen; but, I have seen demonstrated that his Word has been communicated through people who have sinned. In fact, we wouldn't have the word at all without men and women who have sinned.
Don't know why that seems so difficult for some to accept.
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Ham
true, but vic didn't write PFAL. PFAL was written by Stiles, Bullinger, Kenyon..
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oldiesman
true enough but still, God has communicated his word through flawed human beings.
I think it's a lot bigger than human comprehension.
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J0nny Ling0
Oldies, I have to totally back you up here. When biblical examples are used, the common retort is that "Vic was no King David or King Solomon". Well, that doesn't wash with me. I know that he was neither. But since the argument is about "flawed humans" communicating God's Word, I my self cannot but help to bring up Solomon, David, et al. For, they were very flawed humans (David a murderer), and yet God still worked within them to will and to do of His good pleasure. God knew what path David would go down, yet still helped him slay Goliath of Gath when he was but a stripling...
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WhiteDove
Surprise, I'd have to agree also
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Belle
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Ham
I have a bridge.. across the divide.. I'll sell it cheap, I have no pride..
Hasn't been one like it built since the first century.. :)
A few years old, just consider it a "fixer upper".
(Ahem) lets start the bidding.
A thousand, a thousand, who'll give me two, now three...
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skyrider
Well.......since you're putting vpw into the "flawed human being" category, it's certainly ALOT closer to reality than classifying him as The Teacher or The Man of God or The One who received unknown truths that hadn't been known since the First Century.
Thanks, Oldies........associating victor paul wierwille as a "flawed human being".....on the same level as others..... is a major step down from the self-appointed perch of pfal.
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Raf
"Flawed human being" is a euphemism designed to detract from the truth that the man was a manipulative predator who deliberately hurt God's people in His name.
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excathedra
by the way (no pun intended), is any "christian ministry" in crisis if christ is the head ?
will the real christ please stand up ?
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J0nny Ling0
Well the guys trained by Jesus himself certainly fell flat after awhile.. I don't think that there will ever be any Christian ministry that will stay tight and intact and helpful all the way through to the Gathering Together. It's those dang Humans that mess it all up ya know...
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socks
Interesting Jonny - consider this. History and tradtion speak to one thing about "the 12". They all died for their faith. Not a one of them is said to have gone back on their witness of Christ the resurrected savior, after His resurrection and ascension. Even when threatened with death.
Bartholemew-he doesn't get a lot of air time in the epistles. Yet he was called "without deceit" by Jesus. Not a bad report card.
All those guys died martyrs for their beliefs, as history and tradition tells it. If we compared all the so-called "Christian Ministries" today and what's being done by them to those guys, a lot would fall way short I think.
Key to their lives was that while they struggled at times something changed them to the point that they never changed their minds later in life. They died, some more or less alone, absolutely convinced that Jesus Christ was the son of God.
If - that's true, it would account for why the gospel didn't fade out. Different viewpoints may have cropped up but on the basic witness of Jesus Christ, son of God, savior, died, risen and ascended, there seems to have been no disagreement.
That's the "core message" that's been passed on, and again if church history is right, at the expense of their own lives. It's been said that you'd think at least one of them would have backed off, changed their story, given up to save their own lives especially given that some died far from home. Who'd have known? They could have just faded out and gone on with what life they had left.
But they didn't and it figures in as the one singular fact in the whole story. They understood who Jesus Christ really was.
Without that - some sense at the least of who He was and is to us, there's not much left. The rest can be discussed forever. Out of that living real relationship those guys (and many others) maintained comes all the rest of it - churches, rituals, etc. etc. But there's no gospel of Christ without Christ.
I've often thought that's still the whole idea of it. All the rest comes and goes. Christ - the way, truth, the life, the son of God - that's it, that's the point of contact that we either make or don't make. And if they're any example you're right - it won't be a sleigh ride a lot of the time. It's amazing anyone thinks it should or will be, really.
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Raf
Just posting this so that the number of posts no longer reads 666. Creeps me out. :)
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GrouchoMarxJr
I thought this post was worth repeating...
...There's a big difference between those who point Christ out to others...and those who seek recognition for themselves as being self proclaimed "ministers of Christ".
God judges men's hearts but He also expects us to use the bullsh* t meter that he gave us.
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J0nny Ling0
No argument here....
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bliss
ah Socks, you had to bring it up!
I just did a study on the early Christian martyrs, and I tell you, I am not sure that many in this day and age fit into these categories. I had to really dig deep to see if I could face an inquisition, on pain of death, and NOT deny my Lord! What they went through is awe-inspiring.
We are to be a ''living'' sacrifice, for sure. So have I sacrificed my life for Him? Have I put away all that holds me back? My pride, my feelings, my hurts, my worries, my fears, my ''stuff'' from Pier One???????
There are many Christians still being persecuted today throughout the world, that are hiding out in basements, and holes in the ground just to study the bible together! They are being persecuted for believing in Christ.
And here we are, discussing this group that has persucuted their own in the name of Christ!
:blink:
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sprawled out
i can't make the "distinction" you're able to, oldies. to me, if God led people to twi, he put them in harm's way. period.
EVERYBODY'S "sinned." but not everybody did the things vpw did. there's a huge difference, to me, between a flawed human being and a predator. i don't know why THAT seems so difficult for some to accept!
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templelady
Feeling an overwhelming urge to start a riot...................
I agree with Oldies
God uses people to reach people
I abhor PFAL etal TWI etal and the price in human misery they have exacted
But
IF one person who had never heard of Heavenly Father an Jesus Christ Heard about them there then that seed was planted there
Maybe TWI was the only kind of group that person felt comfortable with
maybe it was a case of TWI knocking at the door when the person was receptive just at that moment
As for staying with the group
I can't speak tot the rest of you but there were warning signs a plenty and the voice in my head going GET OUT--GET OUT NOW!!! which I ignored
God is not responsible if we fail to head his warnings and our own God given intellect
Does this absolve VPW , LCM leadership etc of what they did or didn't do
NO WAY
But none of us were physically shackled to the Way auditorium--
For God has not Given us the Spirit of Fear, but of power and love and a sound mind.
that was expounded to me in --surprise--PFAL
And I and so many others chose to ignore its full import
We left the "foundation" for the "vehicle"
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oldiesman
Right on MO!
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socks
That must have been a nice study, bliss.
I've got work to do, that's for sure. ;) It is inspiring and humbling to look at their lives.
For me taking an honest look at what 'churches' and other ministries do has helped me to see what all is "available", if I can use that word and I guess I did. Life can be tough, at best - how can we help ourselves and others get the most out of it?
There's a quality that I've been struggling to find the words for - non-intrusive support is the best I've come up with. Where the fellowship and friendship is built on the example of love we see in the bible amongst Jesus and his followers in the gospels, and Acts and the epistles. Where people working together don't insist their own will on others, but try to help others find the "will of God" and live by their own decisions. And enjoy life as they choose to live it as much as they can.
The church is made up of the members, everyone. When "a church" is what a group of leaders makes it, that's only a very small piece of the pie, it's the piece that those leaders have to contribute. So the question comes to mind, do we know what a leader of "a" church in the bigger body of believers should be contributing, with what they themselves have to offer?
Overall "the" church is described as being very diverse with all of the members contributing their part, and everyone together making up a body that's 'run' and infused by the 'real' leader, Christ. Through His leadership we make a church that glorifies God. I'd assume that by the description in Ephesians that glory is fulfilled and realized when all of the participants are allowed to be engaged and functioning. We don't all do the same thing, we can't, we're not designed to.
From the outside looking in, it's absolute chaos at times, I'm sure. Except when group activities are planned, like Sundays when so much of the Christian world gets in their cars and hits the road. Sundays are like the Parade of Cars or something. But that can't be all there is to the organization of the church.
I had a "dream" once, a waking one.
Where the seemingly chaotic disorder became fluid, like a huge ball of yarn that was impossibly tangled and suddenly the whole continuous strand moved like liguid and smoothed out, back and forth, back and forth. It looked pretty weird at first to my mind's eye but was actually pretty cool.
As individual members we have to be allowed to do "our part", or else we can't fulfill our purpose as a whole group. On one hand that makes for a very laborious effort if any one of us tries to get it all in order. That's not our job, that job is taken by Christ. If we could provide the right support for that to each one of us, we could see if this whole thing really "works" as designed.
I think looking at the early church gives us a view of how diverse all this can really be. It would seem that regardless of what we do or encounter, God's purposes can be realized if we maintain the right focus. What is God through Christ doing in us and what are we doing? That's a very delicate fragile process, without loving support that ball of yarn's going to look like the cat had it's way with it, y'know?
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