The last step is to treat the person as you would an unbeliever (i.e., kindly, but detached). Hmmm, I wonder if Elizabeth feels that she was treated kindly, but with detachment. Someone I seriously doubt it. Perhaps one should investigate what kindess means to those who lead CES.
It's simple...they need to go back to the Bible (not psychology mixed in with the Bible) and study it and practice Eph. 4:32. These "leaders" need to take some time off and study under some loving, kind and good Christian ministers and learn to serve...and perhaps be good Christian regular people for awhile and let God raise them up if He wants to.
We probably all know of someone like one man I know.
He often hears from people telling him how much he's influenced their lives for Christ, what a good example he's been to them over the years, mentioning specific examples, etc...and I've heard him ask laughingly, "When did I do that?"
It's not Alzheimer's, it's the real thing---walking by the spirit. He did it when he was just living for his Lord...not by setting out to LOOK LIKE he was living for his Lord.
When we promote ourselves we must strive to maintain it. And that which begat it--Pride and Strife--will be our hallmarks.
When God promotes us we might not even notice.....we just 'keep living' for Him. And that which begat it--Humility and Peace--will be our hallmarks.
Amen tbfg.... I knew a man like that, I call him the REAL deal. His life showed me what it was to be a genuine Christian, verses the counterfits that I had come to know.
The theme at his funeral was his favorite saying in life...*My grace is sufficient for thee*
We probably all know of someone like one man I know.
He often hears from people telling him how much he's influenced their lives for Christ, what a good example he's been to them over the years, mentioning specific examples, etc...and I've heard him ask laughingly, "When did I do that?"
It's not Alzheimer's, it's the real thing---walking by the spirit. He did it when he was just living for his Lord...not by setting out to LOOK LIKE he was living for his Lord.
When we promote ourselves we must strive to maintain it. And that which begat it--Pride and Strife--will be our hallmarks.
When God promotes us we might not even notice.....we just 'keep living' for Him. And that which begat it--Humility and Peace--will be our hallmarks.
I just wanted to put it in bold so folks wouldn't miss it.
I have been reading the sub-forums about Spirit and Truth Fellowship International. i am disturbed because Karen Anne Grasser seems to be doing new-age channeling since her Way Corps days under the disguise of personal prophecy. My suggestion to Mark is divorce this b*#$h, leave the group, go to a professional psychologist, and ask for the children to be inyour care/Karen to pay alimony(and get help herself), and finally go to a mainline denomination for worship. Forget TWI and CES, admit heresy, grow up/be a mature adult. As for John Lynn, he proably now wishes he never divorced 1st wife Pat, and should have never gotten to know Elizabeth. I am ashamed that i recently bought a number of their books and music CD's. I even defended their right to peculiar theology/doctrine. No more. I wish none of us had ever heard of The Way International or the splinter groups. In the long run, it would have been much healthier.
Thomas...I do think it does get into new age and <_< the occult...how would they know the difference. Thank God we have the Bible...to check things out, but I don't think some thought they could or were able to do that...or perhaps disloyal by doing that...questioning God???
JPT also PM'd me. I don't like how she said what she said. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt as to their intentions. After reading her posts I have decided to ignore her totally. If no one responds to her posts, she will go away. I hope everyone else will do the same so we can correspond on the topic. There are plenty of other threads on Grease Spot she can rant on.
At this point, I think she has deliberately posted here to disrupt the dialogue.
There is a lot to this I don't get. My husband and i were talking, He is a CES guy and I fellowship with a minister in palmer Alaska. He is hurt, but he saw it coming. He said last night that when it was john and shoenheit that it was great. When Graeser came in is when all the trouble started. This is from a man who have been out here alone at the time. I happen to know Tom Resner. We were apprentice corps in Minnesota. We knew each other well, and as you can tell, i am pretty unforgettable....well, when i was searching in 2004 I called john. We talked for hours. The divorce was in process. i can't discuss what we talked about because I don't have permission, but then he knew he screwed up his marriage and knew Elizabeth would probably never speak to him again. I also felt like he was way too distracted to be doing an effective job as a minister.
Those of us that know a little of God's Word know it is a no brainer what karen is promulgating.
The one I feel badly for is SelahV, my husband. There is so much going on in his head.
How bout this? Maybe pick a time between now and the 17th set time aside and pray as a group for the situation. It bothers me that there are so many people involved. BUT, God is bigger and fully capable of setting things straight. does that seem like something anybody would be into. I mean whereever you live, when the designated time comes, stop what you are doing and focus, and either meditate or pray.
I feel bad also that so many of you are taking this to heart and are so upset. Sometimes you just need to step back and be clinical about things. Take emotions away and realize it is a spiritual battle, and it's certainly nothing new. And God is big enough to care for, minister to, and heal anyand everbody that needs it.
I noticed that Graeser said in his letter that they haul in around $60,000 a month! No wonder they offered him 6 months leave of absense WITH PAY!
Just goes to show you, there's a lucrative market out there for former twi leaders to make a decent living...no wonder Mark G is so hesitant in stepping aside...
After reading all these CES/STFI letters, it seems clear that each one of them thinks they are right in their own eyes. When you reduce this down to the basics, it's like some young kids fighting over a toy..."he called me a name"..."well, he called me a name first"...and on it goes.
The fact that these letters have been posted publicly at the GSC speaks volumes. They could not resolve their problems "in house"...and somebody decided to air this dirty laundry in the public view...This self deprecating act, fueled by frustration is a clear indication that this house of cards is tumbling down...Even as these "gurus" of truth laid a doctrinal foundation of "repentance to man", their own zeal has come back to haunt them...but entertaining others through self-humiliation is something that Karen Graeser can probably identify with anyway...what irony.
PS- I don't think Karen G is going to make the "lifeboat"...
Didn't someone post earlier in defense of the leaders something to the effect of: 'they don't draw a salary, but their living expenses are paid'. Hello??? The only difference is how it's reported to the government. It may 'sound' holy and honorable, but it's anything but.
They're just like TWI.... just like TWI. I'll bet they don't provide their books to their followers either. They probably accuse someone of asking to see them of 'thinking evil' and, now, 'spying on them' to report the errors of their ways at the cafe.
TWI has the WAYGB, what's the CESpool version called? They obviously have one now. :blink:
The fact that Paw has suggested downloading any of the documents personally because he's not sure how long they'll be on the server *could* be some sort of indication of how scared and peeved CES is to be having their deception and corruption exposed.
SelahV (my sweetie) said I have to play nice. And yall I did not like getting a whippin... just kidding.
Praide God he loves me....anywho...
It may not show but I am really blessed to be under the care and teaching of my beloved teacher, I came close to chosing John, in the hours I spent talking to him, not once did he go to the Word, that is what I look for, for my soul craves and so I moved on and emailed the minister of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, my teacher. Two things he has taught me that are profound, one is, It is more important to be loving than to be right. The other, email is a lousy way to communicate, that most of the time it leads to misunderstandings. (sounds smart, he is) He prefers to not be mentioned on this site.
Mr. Tucket may be concerned of legal ramifications, because, if no one got permission to forward this to the public, doo doo may just hit the fan. And not out of spite or they think they are above it all or anything like that, it is their simple basic rights as American citizens to not have their dirty laundry aired in this or any other forum. And it can also be traced to the IP address of whoever downloads it too. There could be problems. Any permissions should be in writing and notarized, just to cover your butts. I am just saying, whoever got a hold of this stuff better be sure yea doubly sure that got permission first, or they may be liable. That won't be fun.
And also don't forget, you may not like me, and I am not associated with any organized religion, other believers from The Way or whatever, but ladies and gentlemen, if they are born again, they will be a part of the return and we will all be spending eternity together, and everything we say and do in this life we are held accountable for to GOD. Believe that, don't believe it, doesn't matter, that is what the Word says, so if you are honest, as I have been, then instead of bashing, trashing, and cutting down, try of be of some sort of help to the innocent people that went to these folks for help. Think of them.
I just got the book In His Steps. Maybe if I read it and apply it I may not get so angry at comments that really don't apply to me. When you approach things like this, put yourself in the other persons shoes.
That book In His Steps, was written in 1858 and was the beginning of the phrase What Would Jesus Do?
Thank you Abigail for that wonderful email, you were walking girl....that is how to reprove. You should teach classes. I am going to refer to it often. Thank you maam. You have got class.
TTFNGB,
janis
PS: SelahV just patted me on the head and said I was a good girl.....see even I can walk in love. bah da tum..... me unrenewed, me renewed. So if I made anybody mad, I am sorry.
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notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
Sushi
I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
Whatsgoingon
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
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onefinecustom
The last step is to treat the person as you would an unbeliever (i.e., kindly, but detached). Hmmm, I wonder if Elizabeth feels that she was treated kindly, but with detachment. Someone I seriously doubt it. Perhaps one should investigate what kindess means to those who lead CES.
It's simple...they need to go back to the Bible (not psychology mixed in with the Bible) and study it and practice Eph. 4:32. These "leaders" need to take some time off and study under some loving, kind and good Christian ministers and learn to serve...and perhaps be good Christian regular people for awhile and let God raise them up if He wants to.
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therebutforgrace
and let God raise them up if He wants to.
Amen!
We probably all know of someone like one man I know.
He often hears from people telling him how much he's influenced their lives for Christ, what a good example he's been to them over the years, mentioning specific examples, etc...and I've heard him ask laughingly, "When did I do that?"
It's not Alzheimer's, it's the real thing---walking by the spirit. He did it when he was just living for his Lord...not by setting out to LOOK LIKE he was living for his Lord.
When we promote ourselves we must strive to maintain it. And that which begat it--Pride and Strife--will be our hallmarks.
When God promotes us we might not even notice.....we just 'keep living' for Him. And that which begat it--Humility and Peace--will be our hallmarks.
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rascal
Amen tbfg.... I knew a man like that, I call him the REAL deal. His life showed me what it was to be a genuine Christian, verses the counterfits that I had come to know.
The theme at his funeral was his favorite saying in life...*My grace is sufficient for thee*
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Tom Strange
I just wanted to put it in bold so folks wouldn't miss it.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I have been reading the sub-forums about Spirit and Truth Fellowship International. i am disturbed because Karen Anne Grasser seems to be doing new-age channeling since her Way Corps days under the disguise of personal prophecy. My suggestion to Mark is divorce this b*#$h, leave the group, go to a professional psychologist, and ask for the children to be inyour care/Karen to pay alimony(and get help herself), and finally go to a mainline denomination for worship. Forget TWI and CES, admit heresy, grow up/be a mature adult. As for John Lynn, he proably now wishes he never divorced 1st wife Pat, and should have never gotten to know Elizabeth. I am ashamed that i recently bought a number of their books and music CD's. I even defended their right to peculiar theology/doctrine. No more. I wish none of us had ever heard of The Way International or the splinter groups. In the long run, it would have been much healthier.
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Tom Strange
You better watch it Thomas Loy or you're gonna get one of those 'Darwin Awards'!!!
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onefinecustom
Thomas...I do think it does get into new age and <_< the occult...how would they know the difference. Thank God we have the Bible...to check things out, but I don't think some thought they could or were able to do that...or perhaps disloyal by doing that...questioning God???
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dmiller
JPT --- I met him once -- at his place in the mid- 1990's there in Minneapolis.
(He hosted a meeting that JAL and Greg Pharis came to -- ie -- Personal Prophecy)).
Look up granddaughter (on this site), if you you're looking for an accurate, up-to date description,
of what he is up to. She is *close to home*, and could answer better.
It wasn't pretty back then, and I'm sure it's worse now -- but that's an IMO.
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WordWolf
Paw moderates with an exceedingly LIGHT hand.
If you get some significant moderation from him, you really had to work for it.
Most posters on most boards I frequent (translation: rank unbelievers online)
wouldn't earn such a penalty. They're mindful of simple courtesy when posting.
They may not be able to recite Scripture on it, but they understand posting with
the Golden Rule ("do unto others as you would have them do unto you").
or at LEAST the Silver Rule ("what you don't want others to do to you, don't do to them.")
I'd think about that. The unbelievers are posting nicer than you.
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dmiller
That there is the understatement of the year!!
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Belle
I think that might qualify as a Greasespot Gem!
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Abigail
I came across this, this morning. It struck me that it might be appropriate for this thread:
“Where love rules, there is no will to power; and where power predominates, there love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other.”
-Carl Jung
In other words, if someone is pushing, manipulating, coercing you to do something, it isn't coming from a place of love and it isn't coming from God.
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richnchrispy
JPT also PM'd me. I don't like how she said what she said. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt as to their intentions. After reading her posts I have decided to ignore her totally. If no one responds to her posts, she will go away. I hope everyone else will do the same so we can correspond on the topic. There are plenty of other threads on Grease Spot she can rant on.
At this point, I think she has deliberately posted here to disrupt the dialogue.
Chrispy
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pawtucket
I have deleted the off topic posts.
This is too important a discussion to be derailed.
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justpassingthrough
Bless you Paw.
There is a lot to this I don't get. My husband and i were talking, He is a CES guy and I fellowship with a minister in palmer Alaska. He is hurt, but he saw it coming. He said last night that when it was john and shoenheit that it was great. When Graeser came in is when all the trouble started. This is from a man who have been out here alone at the time. I happen to know Tom Resner. We were apprentice corps in Minnesota. We knew each other well, and as you can tell, i am pretty unforgettable....well, when i was searching in 2004 I called john. We talked for hours. The divorce was in process. i can't discuss what we talked about because I don't have permission, but then he knew he screwed up his marriage and knew Elizabeth would probably never speak to him again. I also felt like he was way too distracted to be doing an effective job as a minister.
Those of us that know a little of God's Word know it is a no brainer what karen is promulgating.
The one I feel badly for is SelahV, my husband. There is so much going on in his head.
How bout this? Maybe pick a time between now and the 17th set time aside and pray as a group for the situation. It bothers me that there are so many people involved. BUT, God is bigger and fully capable of setting things straight. does that seem like something anybody would be into. I mean whereever you live, when the designated time comes, stop what you are doing and focus, and either meditate or pray.
I feel bad also that so many of you are taking this to heart and are so upset. Sometimes you just need to step back and be clinical about things. Take emotions away and realize it is a spiritual battle, and it's certainly nothing new. And God is big enough to care for, minister to, and heal anyand everbody that needs it.
See ya,
Janis
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GrouchoMarxJr
I noticed that Graeser said in his letter that they haul in around $60,000 a month! No wonder they offered him 6 months leave of absense WITH PAY!
Just goes to show you, there's a lucrative market out there for former twi leaders to make a decent living...no wonder Mark G is so hesitant in stepping aside...
After reading all these CES/STFI letters, it seems clear that each one of them thinks they are right in their own eyes. When you reduce this down to the basics, it's like some young kids fighting over a toy..."he called me a name"..."well, he called me a name first"...and on it goes.
The fact that these letters have been posted publicly at the GSC speaks volumes. They could not resolve their problems "in house"...and somebody decided to air this dirty laundry in the public view...This self deprecating act, fueled by frustration is a clear indication that this house of cards is tumbling down...Even as these "gurus" of truth laid a doctrinal foundation of "repentance to man", their own zeal has come back to haunt them...but entertaining others through self-humiliation is something that Karen Graeser can probably identify with anyway...what irony.
PS- I don't think Karen G is going to make the "lifeboat"...
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Danny
Wouldn't you think of all people KG knows most of all?
How's it work like close your eyes and start blinking
pea soup comes out and you guess or make up a bunch
of sheet? Then say thus say the Lord.
Even JL sounded good even parts of it great then bam
the hook buy my book and we will make every thing ok.
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Danny
I was looking at it from a different angle.
60 aint that much in a small business like mine
thats not much. I eat money after materials labor
and insurance nothing would be left for me.
Maybe he has no talent to offer in the real world
like a Job. He has to hang on to what hes got.
Remember that song. 60s
hang on to what you got
hang on hang on du du
babe to what you got
Maybe beach boys
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Belle
Didn't someone post earlier in defense of the leaders something to the effect of: 'they don't draw a salary, but their living expenses are paid'. Hello??? The only difference is how it's reported to the government. It may 'sound' holy and honorable, but it's anything but.
They're just like TWI.... just like TWI. I'll bet they don't provide their books to their followers either. They probably accuse someone of asking to see them of 'thinking evil' and, now, 'spying on them' to report the errors of their ways at the cafe.
TWI has the WAYGB, what's the CESpool version called? They obviously have one now. :blink:
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CoolWaters
CESintelpro? :D
And their spies come from the CESpool...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I crack me up sometimes.
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Belle
The fact that Paw has suggested downloading any of the documents personally because he's not sure how long they'll be on the server *could* be some sort of indication of how scared and peeved CES is to be having their deception and corruption exposed.
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justpassingthrough
Praide God he loves me....anywho...
It may not show but I am really blessed to be under the care and teaching of my beloved teacher, I came close to chosing John, in the hours I spent talking to him, not once did he go to the Word, that is what I look for, for my soul craves and so I moved on and emailed the minister of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, my teacher. Two things he has taught me that are profound, one is, It is more important to be loving than to be right. The other, email is a lousy way to communicate, that most of the time it leads to misunderstandings. (sounds smart, he is) He prefers to not be mentioned on this site.
Mr. Tucket may be concerned of legal ramifications, because, if no one got permission to forward this to the public, doo doo may just hit the fan. And not out of spite or they think they are above it all or anything like that, it is their simple basic rights as American citizens to not have their dirty laundry aired in this or any other forum. And it can also be traced to the IP address of whoever downloads it too. There could be problems. Any permissions should be in writing and notarized, just to cover your butts. I am just saying, whoever got a hold of this stuff better be sure yea doubly sure that got permission first, or they may be liable. That won't be fun.
And also don't forget, you may not like me, and I am not associated with any organized religion, other believers from The Way or whatever, but ladies and gentlemen, if they are born again, they will be a part of the return and we will all be spending eternity together, and everything we say and do in this life we are held accountable for to GOD. Believe that, don't believe it, doesn't matter, that is what the Word says, so if you are honest, as I have been, then instead of bashing, trashing, and cutting down, try of be of some sort of help to the innocent people that went to these folks for help. Think of them.
I just got the book In His Steps. Maybe if I read it and apply it I may not get so angry at comments that really don't apply to me. When you approach things like this, put yourself in the other persons shoes.
That book In His Steps, was written in 1858 and was the beginning of the phrase What Would Jesus Do?
Thank you Abigail for that wonderful email, you were walking girl....that is how to reprove. You should teach classes. I am going to refer to it often. Thank you maam. You have got class.
TTFNGB,
janis
PS: SelahV just patted me on the head and said I was a good girl.....see even I can walk in love. bah da tum.....
me unrenewed, 
me renewed. So if I made anybody mad, I am sorry.
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templelady
I just finished reading Elizabeth's letter to John
(OK, I know, I'm Late, But I've been busy)
I could feel that poor woman's pain through her words
It brought back so much pain from my TWI days
And All I can think is HOW DID THIS HAPPEN????
Didn't they/we/us/ leave TWI because of this EXACT SAME STUFF???
Sorry--I'm yelling
But I am dumbfounded that a ministry that was formed to rectify the ills of TWI came to the point that this is possible
TWI practiced PI they took a bit of scripture and spun it to the "correct" proportions for their purposes
CES, from what I see abandoned scripture all together and went to PI from the delusions of the mind.
I can;t write any more right now--My heart is aching for ELynn I can feel in the innermost part of my being what a hell this was for her,
A hell in the midst of a ministry that claimed to serve GOD
Hell cannot exist in heaven
If Hell exists it is not heaven
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Sushi
CSI:Indianapolis, maybe?
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