Allowing the BOD and the Prez to be the focus of these problems one by one means that the individuals pressing for change can be kept separate by the organization and told one by one "you are the only one who has ever complained about this. No-one else has ever had this problem with us." That is why we have a Federal Trade Commission to complain to about major product defects and then why they eventually have product recalls when too many of the same parts fail. Large churches have these failures too - witness the priests with little boy problems plaguing the RC church and all of their coverups. It is natural to want to spare the organization the embarrassment. But it is not right.
How did the RC priest problem eventually come out? People talking to the news media.
Dear Joeoday, whoever you might be. Thank you for listening.
So many things come to mind from your posts.
So...
very...
many....
What to do? Where to begin?
Well, I shall just start...and I shall number them as I go.
#1 of ........so very many.
You asked... ”...how about picking up pen and paper and writing to Board members and speaking up. ... I think GS is great but really guys, this is not the place to make a change? I think not.”
To which I reply...
GreaseSpot allows for any hidden thing to be brought to light, for each poster to be equal, and for every CESer to become informed and involved if he so chooses.
Writing the BOD allows it to keep things secret, discount certain believers, pick and choose what it informs CESers of, inflict its retaliation, browbeat and M&A, and finally, sweep whatever it chooses right back under a...new...rug.
P.S. If pen and paper is preferred, you have my permission to print out any of my posts and mail them in for me.
CES, at least in the writings I have read, is closest to my belief system. I am a biblical unitarian. I don't expect any organization to reflect my beliefs exactly. I do expect them to be honest and serve as they imply they will in their writings. I do not like that it is set up like TWI with the only votes that count being the boards.
I would like to see an interim board created by nominations and votes from financial givers to CES. Say minimum of $200 in the last year or any consecutive year perhaps since so many people have given up and quit giving recently. After this interim board sorts through all the c@#p of late they could serve for different terms so the old board doesn't get back in power all at the same time.
I would also like to see a body of elders have some sway in the organization. Perhaps a congregational set up.
Just a few ideas. As I have said in other posts, I still care about CES and want it to continue but with more oversight. Currently there is no body to hear grievances that is open minded enough to listen.
Maybe they could look at how other churches do it for examples.
Did anyone else see Joel & Victoria Osteen on CNN Larry King the other morning, it was around 5 am. It was awesome, he would not, just would not make any remarks about anyone in a qossip kind of way. They explained their whole calling as to bless people and build them up with the Word, no matter what religion they were. Of course they preach Christ but they shared that the principals in the Word work for anyone.
It was refreshing to have a minister not give in to dirt, or compromise at the same time. If it comes on again, watch it. They did talk about "the enemy", but they kept things in perspective and prefer even to talk about the power of God working in people's lives. Perhaps too many of these 'cultish' religions, give too much unhealthy attention to the Adversary, thereby almost worshipping him. God should always get the glory and prophecy should always build up and restore or it's not a word fitly spoken.
The church is to operate within the Love of God and cover a multitude of sins. When it comes to a husband and wife, NO ONE EVER should stick their nose in and encourage a decision to divorce. You never know just what God is going to do in that marriage. The only time I can see it being profitable is if someone is physically abused, other that that, even leadership should mind their business, give the Word of encouragement to stay tight with God and for the spouse who is endeavouring to walk, to believe God to turn their situation around.
Well off to bed and everyone have a wonderful Christmas and New Year filled with all God's goodness & health.
Loved your last post (and e-mail). I am thankful for your hearts and all these years of service. Gosh, you two have been around a long time and have a lot to say. Sorry you have not felt heard.
I have heard Dan G. say that as a Board (at least the Theisen's, John Schoenheit, and Dan) want to get all the folks like you two and others together and get all this out on the table. We will just need to wait for the Board meeting on Jan 15 for a public announcement of what steps are being taken to sort all this out.
I really think that no longer having Mark as President (also Karen ann) will go a long way to opening up the change we need. There does need to be a MUCH wider circle of accountability. Something Dan just told me a couple of days ago he is committed to seeing happen.
This prophetic stuff has just gotten crazy....and they (Theisen's, Dan, and John S.) know that...
So it seems that the boot applied swiftly to one couple is the answer to this lemon and God can make lemonade and all can once again quench their thirst. Some how I can't help but wonder if anyone that stood up and said from the very beginning this personal prophecy is wrong will some how make it to this council. I don't know about you but these councils get me all excited, after all it was a political move for a council to elect Jesus God and he wasn't even seeking the office. Perhaps more accurate will be that the doctrine wasn't so bad, just some bad practice by a couple of bad people. Just ignore the bad people got control while the rest of the board and followers seemed helpless until the proverbial crap hit the fan and had to be made public here.
So, who was the wizard that brought the doctrine to the body and then at what point did it corrupt in the boards eyes? Did any of the board stand up and tell JAL he was going down the wrong freaking road? If not one stood and spoke for God then what makes you all so sure the right path can be found by the same bunch that either consented to the divorce or stood by silently and allowed it to happen.
I am reminded of the time I left TWI before public knowledge of lawsuits and sexual misconduct only to be slapped in the face by some very obnoxious posters on Ex-Way sites in 99. You see all was fair and right and wonderful when VPW was then man, little did I know what the man did in his spare time to relax. Then I had to De-throne the Vicster and see that the whole tree was corrupt with some very special people associated with some wolves in sheep's clothing.
Perhaps the years that CES has operated they lead no one to God, or His son; but despite the road they were on many built upon beautiful relationships with their Heavenly Father and their ever righteous perfect big Brother Jesus Christ. Perhaps CES/STFI has caused Jesus to book more time as the mediator between man and God than if they didn't lead the saints down the road of legalism just like TWI did.
Had Jesus been the head that CES/STFI preached, would this road have been traveled?
Ducy makes a very valid point. If the same people who allowed all of this to occur, the same people who stood silent while it occured, are the same people who are going to fix it, more than likely it will be a band aide covering a pustulant infection.
That is exactly what TWI has done. Those who covered up what LCM did are the very same people who are now running the show. On the surface it may seem kindler and gentler, but I wouldn't put my money on anything truly godly coming out of HQ. Likewise, with those of CES who did likewise.
Very well said. There were people who spoke up. I for one did. (Not in a big confrontational way as I was not really interested in his ministry anyway.) When HE told me about the personal prophesy and how he was writing it down, I told him it sounded like automatic handwriting and unbiblical.
Then, he spoke of a prophesy regarding a woman. He was convinced she was the one for him due to one of these prophesy's. (Do not recall her name) I explained to him how many women in the corps thought God told them a certain man was going to be their husband. I told him of a friend Cynd! who told me God showed her she was to marry this corps guy, she knew that she knew. Well, he never had any interest and instead married a different friend of mine. This happened a few toimesz with various women.
I told him I don't see why God would write him a "note," via his own hand, and let him know this woman was the one he was going to marry, even though he was already interested in her. Wouldn't he allow the whole courtship thing happen naturally? and the obvious "Don't you think the desires of your own heart come through in the prophesy?"
Of course I was dissmissed. Checking out his "felowship" was my last thing I ever did which had any real past afiliation with TWI. (Except for Waydale and GSC) Frankly, it grossed me out, caused me to be cautious and did not seem "right".
That whole "Dan" stuff caused me pause the minute I hear of it. And when my friend went and returned, it sounded completely Biblically unfounded. Another man with a class and at the time the only one who was able to run the class.... I mean, once fooled shame on you, twice fooled shame on me....
Yeah, so let the jerks who screwed things up be responsible for fixing it.... Fox watching the hen house...
I know many say that they (STF leadership) hasn't listened to people. I agree, but I have also seen that people who have seen problems haven't gone about it the right way. They don't hang in there and fight. I know it's hard because they get emotionally beat up. Unfortuantely, it has taken some casualties for the pattern to emerge.
Elizabeth was treated wrong and the prophetic words were very wrong and destructive, but I agree with someone earlier who said that she is not exactly innocent either. I am not trying to put more on her than should be but the truth between her and John Lynn probably lies somewhere in the middle.
I know that Sue C. saw a lot of problems too. Unfortuantely she was never in a place of power where she could effect some real change. And Sue left (I don't lay anything on her for it) but she wasn't thown out.
THIS IS NOT THE FIRST WOMAN THAT THIS HAS HAPPENED TOO...THIS ONE JUST ENDED IN MARRIAGE AND OF COURSE DIVORCE...BOTH PROPHESIED OF. THERE WAS SO MUCH PSYCHOBABBLE ALONG WITH PROPHECY AND BIBLE VERSES FROM THOSE THAT ARE "EXPERTS" IN THE FIELD...HOW COULD YOU NOT BELIEVE THEM??? OR BE COMPLETELY CONFUSED BY THEM. GOD'S PEOPLE ARE NOT INDESPENSIBLE. WHY WOULD ANYONE STICK AROUND TO GET BEAT UP OVER AND OVER. ELIZABETH WAS USED AND ABUSED. THESE PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE LEADING OTHERS AND DEFINITELY SHOULD SIT UNDER A PASTOR LIKE CHARLES STANLEY AND LEARN HOW TO LOVE AND MINISTER TO OTHERS.
THEY CAN DO THE BIBLICAL RESEARCH...BUT LEARN HOW TO LOVE AND CHERISH GOD'S CHILDREN.
THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART. IT'S TIME TO CHANGE AND CALL THINGS WHAT THEY ARE...IT DOESN'T TAKE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO FIGURE THIS OUT.
John Schoenheit knows better if he really knows the Bible like his books and tapes and papers say...How can one so Biblically savvy sit by and allow these things to go on.
John Schoenheit knows better if he really knows the Bible like his books and tapes and papers say...How can one so Biblically savvy sit by and allow these things to go on.
I do NOT think John S "allowed these things to go on", he activily promoted it and went for it his own self.
they have been influeneced by others , and john has his own mind.
as far as the bible is concerned he does have an impressive knowledge, like learning a different lauguage.. one can be very educated and fluent in the dynamics of the speech, But never be a country man or have an accent.
money was to be had. and i did speak up i walked out of the fellowship when they began that PP stuff and never went back, again just like twi I had no idea how wide spread it was or how many were abused.
i think they have problems and like the rest of the world . will be forced to deal or not to deal.
why do we ex twi ers think it cant happen to us? we think we are to educated to holy to bible filled to beyond and with the right God to consider it possible.
fooled again, Jesus is the christ of mankind , and no other God goes beofre Him etc.
people like these leaders get so filled up with knowledge they puff up and have no relationship with HIM who IS the one and only begotten .
The Elizabeth papers are an "Example" of what is happening. The focus of this discussion is NOT putting her on trial. Many of you don't get that.
This organization is in deep trouble. Some of the many questions here should be on whether or not it should be salvaged and whether it can be salvaged.
I have this whole section up for two basic reasons, to reach out to those who have been hurt and give them a place to discuss their concerns. Secondly, to show the other side of the story to those curious or interested in this organization.
Ductape asked.....Did any of the board stand up and tell JAL he was going down the wrong freaking road? If not one stood and spoke for God then what makes you all so sure the right path can be found by the same bunch that
...either consented to the divorce
...or stood by silently and allowed it to happen.
to which I add...
...or actually encouraged it (because the ‘prophecies’ showed how hopeless it was)
...or helped him write his divorce letter (never telling her this letter was even being considered, let alone that they were among its drafters)
...or has, during the time since the divorce, held up his divorce as an example to encourage other believers to divorce
...or, for that matter, allowed or took part in the ‘reproof‘ (read ‘punishment’) E received for sharing her anguish with 2-3 close friends, telling them that these ‘prophecies’ could not be of God
...or allowed or took part in the Board decision that E could not know who gave the ‘prophecies’ because it ‘would not serve her’
...or allowed or took part in KA’s frenzy that JAL and E were forbidden to show the ‘prophecies’ to anyone (since they ‘didn’t have all the facts so they couldn’t understand’)
...or spoke up at Board meetings/conference calls muzzling E by saying she should not be able to attend this meeting or that function (to protect the ministry against her ‘attack on the prophetic’)
...or later 'strongly encouraged' E to write a 'good faith' letter of repentance for speaking against the ‘prophecies,’ including an admission that they were true, so CES could use her letter ‘to help the ministry’ since she had 'caused damage' among the believers
...or signed his/her name to the cruel letters to E throughout this nightmare and finally the M&A letter about her
...or was so spiritually dull of heart, so self-centered, so busy ‘doing the work of the ministry’ or whose love had waxed so cold that they did not know these things were occurring.
I and II TImothy are not hard to understand.....the above ungodly conduct clearly disqualifies all who engaged in it from being someone God instructs me to follow.
Hopefully no more evil will need to be exposed before true humility/repentance/change begins. And that repentance/change will not be hard to see. As the BOD/Staff/followers realize the evil of even some of their ways and humble themselves before God and their faith community, they will make remorse-filled calls, emails, letters, and/or visits not only to E but also to the many others who have been discouraged, slandered, browbeaten, run off, fired or lied about during their watch.
Because I love the people involved, and because I want ALL to be redeemed from the hand of the enemy and because I want God to get all the glory, the minute I hear that even the smallest part of this victory over evil has begun...I will report to GS so we can all praise God together.
Now to the "E is not completely innocent in all this" crowd I would like to shout from the roof tops "NO SH!T SHERLOCK!!"
This mentality and ploy worked extremely well for LCM and the leaders of TWI to cover their dark and dubious actions. It is always so easy to find fault and to rip the flesh from a wounded human when one wants to defend their organization and leaders above the heart and life of any individual.
You know that "SO'N'SO" was M&A'd. OMG really??? I was a friend and never knew! Oh come on, the right Rev themselves confronted them and you remember how they farted during manifestations that one time 5 years ago and actually questioned the great bible research guy about his work!
OMG I can't believe I was friends with such evil!
Please anyone that went through such attacks as this woman and anyone that has been through a divorce without screwing up and making some dumb decisions please stand up.
Now to the "E is not completely innocent in all this" crowd I would like to shout from the roof tops "NO SH!T SHERLOCK!!"
This mentality and ploy worked extremely well for LCM and the leaders of TWI to cover their dark and dubious actions. It is always so easy to find fault and to rip the flesh from a wounded human when one wants to defend their organization and leaders above the heart and life of any individual.
You know that "SO'N'SO" was M&A'd. OMG really??? I was a friend and never knew! Oh come on, the right Rev themselves confronted them and you remember how they farted during manifestations that one time 5 years ago and actually questioned the great bible research guy about his work!
OMG I can't believe I was friends with such evil!
Please anyone that went through such attacks as this woman and anyone that has been through a divorce without screwing up and making some dumb decisions please stand up.
Still waiting.............
This post bears not only repeating, but understanding.
Because this is how twi got over, is how ces/stfi is going to get over, and is how many extwi folks still think and act.
So it's no surprise the error of twi lives on...now in multiple organizations/churches and in many, many more lives than if twi had not splintered out...
Ductape asked.....Did any of the board stand up and tell JAL he was going down the wrong freaking road? If not one stood and spoke for God then what makes you all so sure the right path can be found by the same bunch that
All the while he is wearing the Superman suit of personal prophecy and "unquestionable" biblical scholarship, who can sincerely question him, if they buy into his kind of error?
Even with all his practical failures, they still kept him around, sold his material, worshipped the ground he walked on.
The "doctrine" is above question, in their minds, above recrimination.
I don't know if it's the same cult, but it is a cult!
And I continue to wonder (as have others) how anyone can trust the folks on the board to straighten this out when it happened on their watch... they've used up their trust
Good post duct - all excellent questions that I would like answered as well. I am not interested in the easy "I'M sorry, OK let's start playing in the sandbox again" kinda fix. There are some deep seated base philosophy differences that need to be ironed out - like some of the ones that keep getting a lot of different organizations into messes.
All orgs with LEADERS seem to eventually segregate LEADERS AND FOLLOWERS into two groups. And one keeps being treated SPECIAL. Corporations pay CEO's exhorbitant money when in my opinion they really do not add that much value - they hide their messes and totally overhype their successes many times. I've mentioned before a word study of leader or leading in the NT will be dominated by the phrase "blind leading the blind." Jesus's primary image was of the servant - first servant to God listening and obeying and then ministering to his or her brothers & sisters. So how do we end the reign of the Way Corps 80/20 rule? Stop saying it and stop believing it.
One thing I see is that people need to get back to asking God and Jesus what to do and stop asking for words from others. Plain and simple spend time on the phone to heaven talking and listening. This to me is one of the main purposes of servants is to teach their bros and sis's how to talk to and hear from THE DYNAMIC DUO.
The momentus/lgat way of relating to people which can and has subtlely turned into FBI like inquisition tactics needs to be laid aside in favor of a return to the words of Jesus and Paul. People need to relate to others with a heart of humility. Listening so you can hear why a person is hurting, upset needs to predominate over turning Matthew 18 into legalism. The sermon on the Mount is an awesome masterpiece that still stands before me as an awesome mount in its own right, and seems to my puny human mind as a way of living by the spirit that is almost impossible to actually live with my fellow man. Almost except with the help of God and Jesus and a huge huge huge dollup of humility.
Now am I saying lay aside anything good learned from momentus that might be an excellent tool in dealing with a difficult person right in front of you? You use a saw when you are cutting the wood to size to build the structure. But you do not use a saw to apply paint or wallpaper or nail up windows or lay down carpet. Using a hammer to apply paint is foolish. And there are times when I would rather see Christians err on the side of humility and gentleness rather than using the hammer. People are soft and cuddly and warm and surgery acts on the body just like a car accident - trauma and shock. People do not need trauma and shock to their psyches every day or even every week. 99.9% of the time they need an environment that reads like the fruit of the spirit. Galatians 5 & 6 are a great reading area for a situation like this.
I long for the day when all Christians return to an environment like the fruit of the spirit, hear their Father's voice clearly and obey, and walk in the love that Jesus said would identify us as his disciples.
So it's no surprise the error of twi lives on...now in multiple organizations/churches and in many, many more lives than if twi had not splintered out...
Exactly what I have been trying to say........very nicely put.....
I guess I can see it so clearly in my mind's eye, I don't see how others cannot see it. This thread has really showed me how far I have come getting TWI junk out of my thoughts and emotions. I was pleasantly surprised at my own reaction to hearing these "prophecies" and the letter.........how I reacted strongly, from my heart to try to help protect the hearts of others from this junk..........
This thread has been a very important thread for alot of people I believe...........
I find it interesting that some seem to think this sort of junk only goes on in cults. :-)
Richard and I have gone to and become very involved in several conventional churches that chop you off at the knees if they think you will threaten their authority or God forbid "steal a sheep."
It is human nature to attack an assumed enemy. But that is why Jesus said bless them and love them. Everything Jesus commanded us to do is against human nature. We must let reason control our passions. And obey the law of love.
I find it interesting that some seem to think this sort of junk only goes on in cults. :-)
Excellent point Crispy! As a matter of fact, it's interesting how many people use the 'cult' term in this manner. As tho' mainstream religions don't carry out this kind of activity. Ie., this is a 'cult' thing. <_< Yeah! Right!
Richard and I have gone to and become very involved in several conventional churches that chop you off at the knees if they think you will threaten their authority or God forbid "steal a sheep."
Bingo! ... Yet, you never hear anybody accuse them of being a 'cult'.
OK, don't use the term then... (speaking for me) I didn't say or mean to imply that what has been talked about in this thread was "only attributable to a cult"... of course this kind of thing (sadly) does go on in a lot of organizations... but that doesn't mean that CES is or isn't a cult.
And I find it equally sad whenever folks are used or taken advantage of...
I went to group therapy for a few times after getting out. The term the psychiatrist who ran the sessions used the term, "High Demand Group". Seems rather apropos. It also 'covers a multitude of sins'. Can be used for any group be it, political, scientific, etc.
Of course it goes on in churches. A-holz come in all sizes and shapes.
One of the advantages of a "church" is Pastoring, or someone who works in that capacity and considers caring for people important. There's a little more one-on-one available in smaller churches too.
If a person's been pretty beat up by something and really needs help , they will need to choose carefully, which can be difficult since they're vulnerable at that point.
Family and close friends are the best support system. People you can trust to put your best interests first, or at least not to take advantage of you. That goes for anytime, though.
I seldom use the 'cult' term at all, as it's too vague, general to me. Frankly I wonder if CES qualifies, really. I guess it could if it's considered the "son-of-a-cult" (and the Way has been stamped and approved a Cult in Good Standing by every reputable and licensed Cult Appraiser that I've ever heard of) , but for me, moi, my personal use, just my opinion, and all that - I would't consider CES a cult. Cults usually have a charismatic leader, right? That's one of the qualities that usually defines a Cult ® I don't mean to offend anyone but I don't think CES meets the criteria there. But maybe it does. Others would know better.
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richnchrispy
Good post grace
Allowing the BOD and the Prez to be the focus of these problems one by one means that the individuals pressing for change can be kept separate by the organization and told one by one "you are the only one who has ever complained about this. No-one else has ever had this problem with us." That is why we have a Federal Trade Commission to complain to about major product defects and then why they eventually have product recalls when too many of the same parts fail. Large churches have these failures too - witness the priests with little boy problems plaguing the RC church and all of their coverups. It is natural to want to spare the organization the embarrassment. But it is not right.
How did the RC priest problem eventually come out? People talking to the news media.
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richnchrispy
This is Chrispy!
CES, at least in the writings I have read, is closest to my belief system. I am a biblical unitarian. I don't expect any organization to reflect my beliefs exactly. I do expect them to be honest and serve as they imply they will in their writings. I do not like that it is set up like TWI with the only votes that count being the boards.
I would like to see an interim board created by nominations and votes from financial givers to CES. Say minimum of $200 in the last year or any consecutive year perhaps since so many people have given up and quit giving recently. After this interim board sorts through all the c@#p of late they could serve for different terms so the old board doesn't get back in power all at the same time.
I would also like to see a body of elders have some sway in the organization. Perhaps a congregational set up.
Just a few ideas. As I have said in other posts, I still care about CES and want it to continue but with more oversight. Currently there is no body to hear grievances that is open minded enough to listen.
Maybe they could look at how other churches do it for examples.
Merry Christmas!
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joeoday
TBFG,
Good comments and I have taken all of them to heart. Thanks.
RichNCrispy,
Rich, You too have made some good points. Conflict is good if we can learn from it. I hope to. We all need grace, and to dispense it too.
To all, merry Christmas. Remember Jesus is the reason for the season.
Joe, (or who ever I think I am--heck who knows anymore)
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LornaDoone
Did anyone else see Joel & Victoria Osteen on CNN Larry King the other morning, it was around 5 am. It was awesome, he would not, just would not make any remarks about anyone in a qossip kind of way. They explained their whole calling as to bless people and build them up with the Word, no matter what religion they were. Of course they preach Christ but they shared that the principals in the Word work for anyone.
It was refreshing to have a minister not give in to dirt, or compromise at the same time. If it comes on again, watch it. They did talk about "the enemy", but they kept things in perspective and prefer even to talk about the power of God working in people's lives. Perhaps too many of these 'cultish' religions, give too much unhealthy attention to the Adversary, thereby almost worshipping him. God should always get the glory and prophecy should always build up and restore or it's not a word fitly spoken.
The church is to operate within the Love of God and cover a multitude of sins. When it comes to a husband and wife, NO ONE EVER should stick their nose in and encourage a decision to divorce. You never know just what God is going to do in that marriage. The only time I can see it being profitable is if someone is physically abused, other that that, even leadership should mind their business, give the Word of encouragement to stay tight with God and for the spouse who is endeavouring to walk, to believe God to turn their situation around.
Well off to bed and everyone have a wonderful Christmas and New Year filled with all God's goodness & health.
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Jeff USAF RET
Hey Rich n Chrispy,
Loved your last post (and e-mail). I am thankful for your hearts and all these years of service. Gosh, you two have been around a long time and have a lot to say. Sorry you have not felt heard.
I have heard Dan G. say that as a Board (at least the Theisen's, John Schoenheit, and Dan) want to get all the folks like you two and others together and get all this out on the table. We will just need to wait for the Board meeting on Jan 15 for a public announcement of what steps are being taken to sort all this out.
I really think that no longer having Mark as President (also Karen ann) will go a long way to opening up the change we need. There does need to be a MUCH wider circle of accountability. Something Dan just told me a couple of days ago he is committed to seeing happen.
This prophetic stuff has just gotten crazy....and they (Theisen's, Dan, and John S.) know that...
More to come......
Merry Christmas folks!!!
With love,
Jeff
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Ductape
So it seems that the boot applied swiftly to one couple is the answer to this lemon and God can make lemonade and all can once again quench their thirst. Some how I can't help but wonder if anyone that stood up and said from the very beginning this personal prophecy is wrong will some how make it to this council. I don't know about you but these councils get me all excited, after all it was a political move for a council to elect Jesus God and he wasn't even seeking the office. Perhaps more accurate will be that the doctrine wasn't so bad, just some bad practice by a couple of bad people. Just ignore the bad people got control while the rest of the board and followers seemed helpless until the proverbial crap hit the fan and had to be made public here.
So, who was the wizard that brought the doctrine to the body and then at what point did it corrupt in the boards eyes? Did any of the board stand up and tell JAL he was going down the wrong freaking road? If not one stood and spoke for God then what makes you all so sure the right path can be found by the same bunch that either consented to the divorce or stood by silently and allowed it to happen.
I am reminded of the time I left TWI before public knowledge of lawsuits and sexual misconduct only to be slapped in the face by some very obnoxious posters on Ex-Way sites in 99. You see all was fair and right and wonderful when VPW was then man, little did I know what the man did in his spare time to relax. Then I had to De-throne the Vicster and see that the whole tree was corrupt with some very special people associated with some wolves in sheep's clothing.
Perhaps the years that CES has operated they lead no one to God, or His son; but despite the road they were on many built upon beautiful relationships with their Heavenly Father and their ever righteous perfect big Brother Jesus Christ. Perhaps CES/STFI has caused Jesus to book more time as the mediator between man and God than if they didn't lead the saints down the road of legalism just like TWI did.
Had Jesus been the head that CES/STFI preached, would this road have been traveled?
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Abigail
Ducy makes a very valid point. If the same people who allowed all of this to occur, the same people who stood silent while it occured, are the same people who are going to fix it, more than likely it will be a band aide covering a pustulant infection.
That is exactly what TWI has done. Those who covered up what LCM did are the very same people who are now running the show. On the surface it may seem kindler and gentler, but I wouldn't put my money on anything truly godly coming out of HQ. Likewise, with those of CES who did likewise.
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Dot Matrix
Duc and Abagail
Very well said. There were people who spoke up. I for one did. (Not in a big confrontational way as I was not really interested in his ministry anyway.) When HE told me about the personal prophesy and how he was writing it down, I told him it sounded like automatic handwriting and unbiblical.
Then, he spoke of a prophesy regarding a woman. He was convinced she was the one for him due to one of these prophesy's. (Do not recall her name) I explained to him how many women in the corps thought God told them a certain man was going to be their husband. I told him of a friend Cynd! who told me God showed her she was to marry this corps guy, she knew that she knew. Well, he never had any interest and instead married a different friend of mine. This happened a few toimesz with various women.
I told him I don't see why God would write him a "note," via his own hand, and let him know this woman was the one he was going to marry, even though he was already interested in her. Wouldn't he allow the whole courtship thing happen naturally? and the obvious "Don't you think the desires of your own heart come through in the prophesy?"
Of course I was dissmissed. Checking out his "felowship" was my last thing I ever did which had any real past afiliation with TWI. (Except for Waydale and GSC) Frankly, it grossed me out, caused me to be cautious and did not seem "right".
That whole "Dan" stuff caused me pause the minute I hear of it. And when my friend went and returned, it sounded completely Biblically unfounded. Another man with a class and at the time the only one who was able to run the class.... I mean, once fooled shame on you, twice fooled shame on me....
Yeah, so let the jerks who screwed things up be responsible for fixing it.... Fox watching the hen house...
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onefinecustom
I know many say that they (STF leadership) hasn't listened to people. I agree, but I have also seen that people who have seen problems haven't gone about it the right way. They don't hang in there and fight. I know it's hard because they get emotionally beat up. Unfortuantely, it has taken some casualties for the pattern to emerge.
Elizabeth was treated wrong and the prophetic words were very wrong and destructive, but I agree with someone earlier who said that she is not exactly innocent either. I am not trying to put more on her than should be but the truth between her and John Lynn probably lies somewhere in the middle.
I know that Sue C. saw a lot of problems too. Unfortuantely she was never in a place of power where she could effect some real change. And Sue left (I don't lay anything on her for it) but she wasn't thown out.
THIS IS NOT THE FIRST WOMAN THAT THIS HAS HAPPENED TOO...THIS ONE JUST ENDED IN MARRIAGE AND OF COURSE DIVORCE...BOTH PROPHESIED OF. THERE WAS SO MUCH PSYCHOBABBLE ALONG WITH PROPHECY AND BIBLE VERSES FROM THOSE THAT ARE "EXPERTS" IN THE FIELD...HOW COULD YOU NOT BELIEVE THEM??? OR BE COMPLETELY CONFUSED BY THEM. GOD'S PEOPLE ARE NOT INDESPENSIBLE. WHY WOULD ANYONE STICK AROUND TO GET BEAT UP OVER AND OVER. ELIZABETH WAS USED AND ABUSED. THESE PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE LEADING OTHERS AND DEFINITELY SHOULD SIT UNDER A PASTOR LIKE CHARLES STANLEY AND LEARN HOW TO LOVE AND MINISTER TO OTHERS.
THEY CAN DO THE BIBLICAL RESEARCH...BUT LEARN HOW TO LOVE AND CHERISH GOD'S CHILDREN.
THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART. IT'S TIME TO CHANGE AND CALL THINGS WHAT THEY ARE...IT DOESN'T TAKE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO FIGURE THIS OUT.
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onefinecustom
John Schoenheit knows better if he really knows the Bible like his books and tapes and papers say...How can one so Biblically savvy sit by and allow these things to go on.
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pond
I do NOT think John S "allowed these things to go on", he activily promoted it and went for it his own self.
they have been influeneced by others , and john has his own mind.
as far as the bible is concerned he does have an impressive knowledge, like learning a different lauguage.. one can be very educated and fluent in the dynamics of the speech, But never be a country man or have an accent.
money was to be had. and i did speak up i walked out of the fellowship when they began that PP stuff and never went back, again just like twi I had no idea how wide spread it was or how many were abused.
i think they have problems and like the rest of the world . will be forced to deal or not to deal.
why do we ex twi ers think it cant happen to us? we think we are to educated to holy to bible filled to beyond and with the right God to consider it possible.
fooled again, Jesus is the christ of mankind , and no other God goes beofre Him etc.
people like these leaders get so filled up with knowledge they puff up and have no relationship with HIM who IS the one and only begotten .
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pawtucket
The Elizabeth papers are an "Example" of what is happening. The focus of this discussion is NOT putting her on trial. Many of you don't get that.
This organization is in deep trouble. Some of the many questions here should be on whether or not it should be salvaged and whether it can be salvaged.
I have this whole section up for two basic reasons, to reach out to those who have been hurt and give them a place to discuss their concerns. Secondly, to show the other side of the story to those curious or interested in this organization.
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therebutforgrace
Thanks, Paw.
Ductape asked.....Did any of the board stand up and tell JAL he was going down the wrong freaking road? If not one stood and spoke for God then what makes you all so sure the right path can be found by the same bunch that
...either consented to the divorce
...or stood by silently and allowed it to happen.
to which I add...
...or actually encouraged it (because the ‘prophecies’ showed how hopeless it was)
...or helped him write his divorce letter (never telling her this letter was even being considered, let alone that they were among its drafters)
...or has, during the time since the divorce, held up his divorce as an example to encourage other believers to divorce
...or, for that matter, allowed or took part in the ‘reproof‘ (read ‘punishment’) E received for sharing her anguish with 2-3 close friends, telling them that these ‘prophecies’ could not be of God
...or allowed or took part in the Board decision that E could not know who gave the ‘prophecies’ because it ‘would not serve her’
...or allowed or took part in KA’s frenzy that JAL and E were forbidden to show the ‘prophecies’ to anyone (since they ‘didn’t have all the facts so they couldn’t understand’)
...or spoke up at Board meetings/conference calls muzzling E by saying she should not be able to attend this meeting or that function (to protect the ministry against her ‘attack on the prophetic’)
...or later 'strongly encouraged' E to write a 'good faith' letter of repentance for speaking against the ‘prophecies,’ including an admission that they were true, so CES could use her letter ‘to help the ministry’ since she had 'caused damage' among the believers
...or signed his/her name to the cruel letters to E throughout this nightmare and finally the M&A letter about her
...or was so spiritually dull of heart, so self-centered, so busy ‘doing the work of the ministry’ or whose love had waxed so cold that they did not know these things were occurring.
I and II TImothy are not hard to understand.....the above ungodly conduct clearly disqualifies all who engaged in it from being someone God instructs me to follow.
Hopefully no more evil will need to be exposed before true humility/repentance/change begins. And that repentance/change will not be hard to see. As the BOD/Staff/followers realize the evil of even some of their ways and humble themselves before God and their faith community, they will make remorse-filled calls, emails, letters, and/or visits not only to E but also to the many others who have been discouraged, slandered, browbeaten, run off, fired or lied about during their watch.
Because I love the people involved, and because I want ALL to be redeemed from the hand of the enemy and because I want God to get all the glory, the minute I hear that even the smallest part of this victory over evil has begun...I will report to GS so we can all praise God together.
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Ductape
Thanks Abi,Dot and Grace.
Now to the "E is not completely innocent in all this" crowd I would like to shout from the roof tops "NO SH!T SHERLOCK!!"
This mentality and ploy worked extremely well for LCM and the leaders of TWI to cover their dark and dubious actions. It is always so easy to find fault and to rip the flesh from a wounded human when one wants to defend their organization and leaders above the heart and life of any individual.
You know that "SO'N'SO" was M&A'd. OMG really??? I was a friend and never knew! Oh come on, the right Rev themselves confronted them and you remember how they farted during manifestations that one time 5 years ago and actually questioned the great bible research guy about his work!
OMG I can't believe I was friends with such evil!
Please anyone that went through such attacks as this woman and anyone that has been through a divorce without screwing up and making some dumb decisions please stand up.
Still waiting.............
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CoolWaters
This post bears not only repeating, but understanding.
Because this is how twi got over, is how ces/stfi is going to get over, and is how many extwi folks still think and act.
So it's no surprise the error of twi lives on...now in multiple organizations/churches and in many, many more lives than if twi had not splintered out...
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Ham
All the while he is wearing the Superman suit of personal prophecy and "unquestionable" biblical scholarship, who can sincerely question him, if they buy into his kind of error?
Even with all his practical failures, they still kept him around, sold his material, worshipped the ground he walked on.
The "doctrine" is above question, in their minds, above recrimination.
Sound familiar?
Its the same cult.
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Tom Strange
I don't know if it's the same cult, but it is a cult!
And I continue to wonder (as have others) how anyone can trust the folks on the board to straighten this out when it happened on their watch... they've used up their trust
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richnchrispy
This is the Richard.
Good post duct - all excellent questions that I would like answered as well. I am not interested in the easy "I'M sorry, OK let's start playing in the sandbox again" kinda fix. There are some deep seated base philosophy differences that need to be ironed out - like some of the ones that keep getting a lot of different organizations into messes.
All orgs with LEADERS seem to eventually segregate LEADERS AND FOLLOWERS into two groups. And one keeps being treated SPECIAL. Corporations pay CEO's exhorbitant money when in my opinion they really do not add that much value - they hide their messes and totally overhype their successes many times. I've mentioned before a word study of leader or leading in the NT will be dominated by the phrase "blind leading the blind." Jesus's primary image was of the servant - first servant to God listening and obeying and then ministering to his or her brothers & sisters. So how do we end the reign of the Way Corps 80/20 rule? Stop saying it and stop believing it.
One thing I see is that people need to get back to asking God and Jesus what to do and stop asking for words from others. Plain and simple spend time on the phone to heaven talking and listening. This to me is one of the main purposes of servants is to teach their bros and sis's how to talk to and hear from THE DYNAMIC DUO.
The momentus/lgat way of relating to people which can and has subtlely turned into FBI like inquisition tactics needs to be laid aside in favor of a return to the words of Jesus and Paul. People need to relate to others with a heart of humility. Listening so you can hear why a person is hurting, upset needs to predominate over turning Matthew 18 into legalism. The sermon on the Mount is an awesome masterpiece that still stands before me as an awesome mount in its own right, and seems to my puny human mind as a way of living by the spirit that is almost impossible to actually live with my fellow man. Almost except with the help of God and Jesus and a huge huge huge dollup of humility.
Now am I saying lay aside anything good learned from momentus that might be an excellent tool in dealing with a difficult person right in front of you? You use a saw when you are cutting the wood to size to build the structure. But you do not use a saw to apply paint or wallpaper or nail up windows or lay down carpet. Using a hammer to apply paint is foolish. And there are times when I would rather see Christians err on the side of humility and gentleness rather than using the hammer. People are soft and cuddly and warm and surgery acts on the body just like a car accident - trauma and shock. People do not need trauma and shock to their psyches every day or even every week. 99.9% of the time they need an environment that reads like the fruit of the spirit. Galatians 5 & 6 are a great reading area for a situation like this.
I long for the day when all Christians return to an environment like the fruit of the spirit, hear their Father's voice clearly and obey, and walk in the love that Jesus said would identify us as his disciples.
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outofdafog
So it's no surprise the error of twi lives on...now in multiple organizations/churches and in many, many more lives than if twi had not splintered out...
Exactly what I have been trying to say........very nicely put.....
I guess I can see it so clearly in my mind's eye, I don't see how others cannot see it. This thread has really showed me how far I have come getting TWI junk out of my thoughts and emotions. I was pleasantly surprised at my own reaction to hearing these "prophecies" and the letter.........how I reacted strongly, from my heart to try to help protect the hearts of others from this junk..........
This thread has been a very important thread for alot of people I believe...........
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richnchrispy
This is Chrispy.
I find it interesting that some seem to think this sort of junk only goes on in cults. :-)
Richard and I have gone to and become very involved in several conventional churches that chop you off at the knees if they think you will threaten their authority or God forbid "steal a sheep."
It is human nature to attack an assumed enemy. But that is why Jesus said bless them and love them. Everything Jesus commanded us to do is against human nature. We must let reason control our passions. And obey the law of love.
Love you!
Chris
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GarthP2000
Bingo! ... Yet, you never hear anybody accuse them of being a 'cult'.
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Tom Strange
Yes, those are good points Chris.
OK, don't use the term then... (speaking for me) I didn't say or mean to imply that what has been talked about in this thread was "only attributable to a cult"... of course this kind of thing (sadly) does go on in a lot of organizations... but that doesn't mean that CES is or isn't a cult.
And I find it equally sad whenever folks are used or taken advantage of...
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Sushi
I went to group therapy for a few times after getting out. The term the psychiatrist who ran the sessions used the term, "High Demand Group". Seems rather apropos. It also 'covers a multitude of sins'. Can be used for any group be it, political, scientific, etc.
I hope this helps move the discussion along,
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socks
Of course it goes on in churches.
A-holz come in all sizes and shapes.
One of the advantages of a "church" is Pastoring, or someone who works in that capacity and considers caring for people important. There's a little more one-on-one available in smaller churches too.
If a person's been pretty beat up by something and really needs help , they will need to choose carefully, which can be difficult since they're vulnerable at that point.
Family and close friends are the best support system. People you can trust to put your best interests first, or at least not to take advantage of you. That goes for anytime, though.
I seldom use the 'cult' term at all, as it's too vague, general to me. Frankly I wonder if CES qualifies, really. I guess it could if it's considered the "son-of-a-cult" (and the Way has been stamped and approved a Cult in Good Standing by every reputable and licensed Cult Appraiser that I've ever heard of) , but for me, moi, my personal use, just my opinion, and all that - I would't consider CES a cult. Cults usually have a charismatic leader, right? That's one of the qualities that usually defines a Cult ® I don't mean to offend anyone but I don't think CES meets the criteria there. But maybe it does. Others would know better.
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