It worked for JAL and the board; not one has had to work a real job yet in their lives!
Better check your facts before you make a statement like this:
JAL: has been running an SAT prep business in the "real world" for the past 2+ years, NOT living on donations or on CES payroll
Dan: built several construction businesses and is now semi-retired
G&K T: G is a doctor & K is a counselor - been working and serving in their community faithfully for MANY years
TomR: runs a mortgage business
Mark & JS are the only Board members who haven't worked in the "real world" recently, HOWEVER, both have worked in the "real world" in the past.
Regardless, all board positions are volunteer - Mark & JohnS are paid because they're considered CES staff members, not because they are board members.
Just making sure this is straight. Please stop accusing these people of not working a day in their lives.
More straw man fluff to whitewash your 'Men of God's reputations ehh, Billy D? What about all the rest of the documented accusations/information that has been laid at their feet, hmmm?
Your good ship CES/STFI is sinking. ... You might want to seriously think about how good you can swim.
It is apparent from your last post that ON THIS TOPIC you do not have any accurate information to base your comments regarding the current crisis at CES. Because someone did something a certain way 20 + years ago, that means they would do the same thing now or that it is ok to do that now? Please, wrong is wrong, and most of the time it is not hard to tell the difference.
I do have accurate information on the current "facts" and can add further support to Billy D and his comments, which are accurate.
It is apparent from your last post that ON THIS TOPIC you do not have any accurate infomation to base your comments regarding the current crisis at CES. Because someone did something a certain way 20 + years ago, that means they would do the same thing now or that it is ok to do that now? Please, wrong is wrong, and most of the time it is not hard to tell the difference.
I do have accurate information on the current "facts" and can add further support to Billy D and his comments, which are accurate.
The high and mighty duc-out ductape?
Typical CES/STFI treatment extended to me as recent as, oh 2 years ago.
Hi Joe, I suspect those ideas I posted aren't new to them, and that the CES board members will do something along those lines. Getting rid of Mark G prior, to clear the decks, might be a good thing for them, I don't know, but....
Wouldn't it just set it up for a division, a split in assorted CES members to either side with Mark or individuals or TheRestOfCES?
Booting Mark out could be just amount to more politicing. Again, I don't know how they function at all if they are, what level of honest communication there is if any, or if it's all just people siding up with each other at this point, endless phone calls where details get discussed only with those who agree with you but never with anyone who actually challenges their own individual positions - where the much-honored practice of "confronting" "sinful" behavior is simply blown off as accusations, gossip, lack of "spritiuality", and condemned? Kickng Mark out of his position won't do squat if he isn't included - that's my take on the limited information I have, all read here.
I confess it's extremely naive at this point to think that it's possible for them to consider an outside neutral facilitator or arbitrator to hash out these differences, let alone actually deal with serious grievances and end up with any kind changes, if even now the people are shoring up their own positions in preparation for confrontation. But it's the only way that I know of (there may be others but I'm speaking for one opinion here and that's all) that could at least act as a catalyst to getting down to the nitty gritty on some of this stuff.
Cap'n, Dmiller, TBFG, Socks, get the paper and pen out and let them know that you are upset.
I appreciate the inclusion, but I'm not really upset. As stated, I'm not a member of this church. My only connection is to some of the people, and have only past friendships with John L, John S and Mark G and his wife. I wouldn't know any of the rest of them from a can of paint. It's not that I don't care but if I hadn't read it here I'd probably have only heard of it in January and then from only some other non-member friends. Maybe.
The people who have invested their time, life, heart and all whatever else into CES have a place in line, but not me. As Raf said somewhere around here, they owe me no explanation.
As fellow clergy of the once-Way, I have a small connection with John L, but I don't think it appropriate to approach him on any of this specifically, other than if I felt inspired I'd let him know I support him. "Him", his life, his hopes and his dreams, whatever they are now. I'm on his side, yours, Mark's, everyones. I want the bad to stop and the good times to start rolling. But I would only open that line if I felt there was an interest, and only if it could act as a catalyst. I spill a lot of verbiage here but I don't expect it to do anything other than communcate with the fellow GSers, possibly anyone who else who peeks in would get some benefit, I don't know. I'm "here", they know it. I'm not hard to find. This is a good forum for discussion, there are others appropriate too. I won't say anything to anyone that can't be documented exactly what went on, if I feel even a hint of a possibility it will be misconstrued later.
Most dyed in the wool members won't like my advice, if they're getting tanked up to dig in and go the distance with all of this. I suggest some of you get out of CES and it's influences, it's past, present and future. Clear the decks, get out. Don't even allow the possibility of some kind of negative feedback to come to you based on any BS prophecy, dreamt or otherwise, the attacks your integrity and well being.
That's not giving up, it's building, taking a first step to the rest of your life, which someday will be much bigger than all of this, believe it or not. If you have friends or associations with people you want to maintain and they love you, those trusted relationships won't end. They might change, but if they're real they won't end.
Anyway, I appreciate the opportunity to shred like this. I was in the Way 21 years and about 17 of those were spent not seeing some of the things I originally thought important flourish, in the Way. Some things did, some things didn't. The time came when I needed to step out and see if they could or would flourish elsewhere. I did, and they did. Or are I should say. Ain't done yet!
The "current crisis at CES" is an administrative crisis.
For those who may lose a salary, it could also be a financial crisis.
For those followers thinking CES was the solution to TWI, it is also a crisis of worldview.
For those leaders believing CES is God's vanguard to get His Truth to the world, it is a monumental crisis.
For anyone sincerely fighting "for the ministry they love," it is no doubt one of the biggest crises of their lives.
NOTE: The last 3 groups can be helped out of their crises if they will hear some of the GSers' been-there-woke-up words posted here in this answer-to-prayer forum. It's been well said here more than once: we don't serve a risen organization.
Back to the "current [administrative] crisis in CES".
Many companies have them.
>>>>>And no, they don't put it on their websites.<<<<<
If the company survives the struggle through the crisis, they send out a form letter on company letterhead to interested parties with a one or two sentence--
"Sam Smith, XYZ Widgets' CEO, has left us for personal reasons, and we wish him well"
and a 2-3 paragraph--
"We are pleased to announce that we have brought on Bob Jones, from ABC Corp. Bob has 20 years of experience in......."
I assume, if CES continues as an organization, they will do the same or perhaps, as has been said, they will make a mid-stream request for input. More on that later.
Anyway, there are several diferences between XYZ Widgets and CES, but one of those should be that believers such as you wonderful GSers are praying for godliness in the struggle (thank you socks) and a godly end (thank all of you).
THAT SAID....
The "current [administrative] crisis at CES" is but a reaping of the years of crises it has sown into its followers' lives.
Has it sown good? Yes it has. I speak from personal experience.
Has it sown evil? Yes it has. I speak from personal experience.
Did the people intend to sow the evil? Not my call. We are clearly told NOT TO judge hearts and motives...
Did they sow evil? Yes they did. We are clearly told TO judge words and actions.
We're also clearly told how to humble ourselves, submit to God, repent and get cleansed from all unrighteousness. I pray every Saint who has been involved in it in the smallest way will choose this route out of ALL of the current and future crises in CES...and in life itself.
With over 500 posts and over 12.000 views on this thread, it'a apparent that this is a subject that impacts a lot of people...and it looks like part of CES's problem now is that more info and honesty is being expressed here at the GSC than in any of their "communication" channels on this subject...their people are coming here and checking all this stuff out.
...And that's a GOOD thing. There have been numerous posts on this thread that are intelligent, thoughtful and honest...posts that can be helpful to individuals who are considering their options.
I have no ill will towards any of the leaders of CES...but I call em like I see em, and frankly, some of this CES "stuff" seems really nuts to me...IMHO. I hate to see sincere people getting hurt, especially when it doesn't have to be that way. Christians should place their trust in the Lord...fellowship with others serves to build and enhance that trust...not take it's place.
If I may offer a slightly different perspective...
If I'm CES, I'm thinking that there are maybe 10 posts on this thread, 15 at most, that are actually of value to people. The rest are gossipping, backbiting, and the same unhealthy cynicism that has haunted the ex-Way community and kept us away from GSCafe for years.
Not saying I agree with the above perspective. Just that if you're in defensive mode, that's the position you're going to embrace.
If I may offer a slightly different perspective...
If I'm CES, I'm thinking that there are maybe 10 posts on this thread, 15 at most, that are actually of value to people. The rest are gossipping, backbiting, and the same unhealthy cynicism that has haunted the ex-Way community and kept us away from GSCafe for years.
Not saying I agree with the above perspective. Just that if you're in defensive mode, that's the position you're going to embrace.
I think it was about 5 years ago JAL spoke about the same words to my old TWI twig after they left and he got his foot in the door. When your not bitter and ready to move ahead you'll stand with us,
"The "current crisis at CES" is an administrative crisis. "
Perhaps you are right, Grace, and in many ways you are in a better position than I to know. However, it appears as if the crisis is more than an administrative crisis. It seems as if the crisis is one that stems from bad doctrine and/or bad practice.
I don't want to turn this into a deep theological discussion, because many of us at the cafe have a different understanding and perception of what the Bible says and there are likewise those who don't believe the Bible at all. That is why I simply made the comparision to what occured in TWI and why, and what seems to be happening to CES.
However, if you go back to PFAL, if you go back to what Jesus taught, if you go back to the O.T., and likewise in the Epistles we are told to obey God not men. Likewise, it tells us pride goes before a fall. When we get caught up in wanting, needing, or believing we are somehow more spiritual, possess special knowledge, etc. - that is the pride.
The sad thing is we are all special. But we aren't special because we have some speacial knowledge or power. We are special because each one of us is unique.
I don't want to turn this into a deep theological discussion, because many of us at the cafe have a different understanding and perception of what the Bible says and there are likewise those who don't believe the Bible at all. That is why I simply made the comparision to what occured in TWI and why, and what seems to be happening to CES.
However, if you go back to PFAL, if you go back to what Jesus taught, if you go back to the O.T., and likewise in the Epistles we are told to obey God not men. Likewise, it tells us pride goes before a fall. When we get caught up in wanting, needing, or believing we are somehow more spiritual, possess special knowledge, etc. - that is the pride,
Abigail...you bring up a good point. Here's another one to consider:
Act 5:34 But a Pharisee in the council named Gama'li-el, a teacher of the law, held in honor by all the people, stood up and ordered the men to be put outside for a while.
Act 5:35 And he said to them, "Men of Israel, take care what you do with these men.
Act 5:36 For before these days Theu'das arose, giving himself out to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him; but he was slain and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing.
Act 5:37 After him Judas the Galilean arose in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him; he also perished, and all who followed him were scattered.
Act 5:38 So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail;
Act 5:39 but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God!"
I am still sorting all this out. However, it sounds like CES through their witch hunt which they used to call the Prophetic Action Council (Is this the correct name?) sabotaged John Lynn and Elizabeth's marriage. A couple of questions to think about. Why is CES so meddlesome and deliberately destructive to the personal lives of others? Why didn't John Lynn take a real stand and defend Elizabeth against false accusations?
It seems apparent that CES now has copied the same horrific habits that The Way International had and has. They are ruled by a corporate hierarchy instead of following the laws of service and love that Jesus taught his disciples. They both elevate the spiritual phenomena (signs) of their rulers, ruling directors or councils above the written word of God. And above the wisdom and application of God's word that is acquired through experience, hard work and study over a period of time. In CES's case personal prophecy. In TWI's case revelation.
More straw man fluff to whitewash your 'Men of God's reputations ehh, Billy D? What about all the rest of the documented accusations/information that has been laid at their feet, hmmm?
Your good ship CES/STFI is sinking. ... You might want to seriously think about how good you can swim.
<_<
Garth,
What exactly did I do to you to deserve such a snide remark? I've heard some pretty nasty things in this thread, and your little barb is one of the worst.
Please re-read my post. Slowly. If you do, you'll see that I was responding to the allegation that the CES/STF board "never worked a day in their life." That's it. How is that an attempt to "whitewash your 'Men of God's' reputations???" I was simply responding to a LIE with fact. I said NOTHING about the rest of the accusations/information that has been "laid at their feet." And also, if you would read my posts with an open mind instead of instantly assuming you know what I think and/or feel, I have no background in TWI, so the whole "Man of God" nonsense is meaningless to me. In my opinion, ANYONE who believes in God and Jesus Christ (whether the believe in the trinity or not) is a man/woman of God, and NO better or worse than any other man/woman of God.
Please remove the mote from your eye and show me some kindness and respect.
For the record, I am upset and shocked by what I've read here and by what I've personally experienced basically since April. My wife was booted from the home office staff by a board member, for goodness sake. How do you think I feel?? So please don't assume that I'm somehow leaping to the defense of my "Men of God" and excusing what they've done. I was simply confronting a specific LIE. Period.
God bless you, and I earnestly hope that you have a Merry Christmas. In fact, I hope that you all have a Merry Christmas. Though some of the things said here have been just as hurtful as what you're judging others to have done, I can forgive you and I know our Lord will if you ask Him to.
BillyD, you've got guts, and it's great and I accept your Merry Christmas blessing. Back at ya'!
Abigail, you are 100% correct.
I did not write that clearly, as I was getting ready to leave for the evening.
What I meant was .... the fact that they need to replace a President--even if it's not an amiable replacement--is not a crisis. It's a normal part of organizations with Presidents.
The attitudes that would lead to calling it a crisis are the EXACT REASON THEY ARE IN what they call a crisis. These Cult Attitudes would include, but certainly not be limited to...
a) they need their salary, position or image, so they fight from selfish, fearful pride: "we can't let the other Board members take it down"!
or
b) they think God needs the organization ("the ministry I love"), so they fight from selfish, religious pride: "we can't let the other Board members take it down!
Neither attitude (or any other cult attitude) has anything to do with "he that is greatest among you shall be your servant", the obvious attitude Jesus exemplified for leaders to live from. Neither even has to do with "love one another as I have loved you", the obvious attitude Jesus exemplified for every believer to live from.
There have been crises in CES and there are crises in it today.
Those holier-than-thou attitudes, though...the ones yet to be publically repented of...are the attiudes which SPAWNED them all.
Strife in CES is not a crisis...anyone with non-cult eyes would call it a hallmark.
What has been a crisis are the wrecked marriages, wrecked families, wrecked friendships, wrecked jobs, wrecked dreams, wrecked hopes, wrecked P-E-O-P-L-E.
What is now a crisis is how FAR from the simplicity in Christ the Gs have gotten and that their children are being put through a crisis they had no cause in! What is a crisis is that the other CES leaders are no closer but appear to be thinking they are.
CRISES have to do with PEOPLE, not jobs. PEOPLE, not organizations. PEOPLE, not moving the Word over the world.
I don't call this exposing of evil a crisis.
As I've said before, I call it an answer to prayer.
Taken by itself, I can see where you have a point in your post about certain people 'not working a day in their lives'. But look at the overall picture here. Even given that they do 'work a day in their lives', the folks who are in the decision making process and leadership at CES are indeed hurting people with what they are doing, and this hurting has gone back as much as 10+ years, chief (And this does include the three original principals). And no doubt there has also been good work mixed in.
Guess what? This same thing has happened in TWI as well, as there were a lot of people helping others in that organization. But the overall direction of that system was turning more and more toxic, as MANY people will testify here. ... Such as it is becoming with CES more and more. And this is despite the claim that they 'are working for the Lord Jesus'. That claim by itself is worth no more than a $2.00 whore, ... with AIDS! Hell, you can have an ethical atheist that run rings around the CES leadership when it comes to doing good for people.
And you make an unsubstantiated claim yourself with your earlier snide comment about Elizabeth not being so innocent herself, ... as you give no info as to why that is (supposedly) the case. I wonder what she would say to that!
And you're damn right I have a rather hostile attitude regarding religious groups like this. They are a bane upon the human race, doing their controlling and abusive crap in the Name of Gawd. (That is but one reason why I walked away from faith based *cough* 'reasoning') And I have determined that I will not treat groups like that with respect nor kid gloves. ... Ie., I call 'em as I sees 'em.
You and your wife might be a nice people, wanting to help others. Okay, I'll grant you that. Other individuals in CES most likely are likewise. ... But the organization itself is as I referred to before, ... a ship that is sinking.
This is not what the Lord taught nor does it have any biblical or spiritual reasoning.
I can forgive you and I know our Lord will if you ask Him to.
Since the Lord paid for our sins, forgiveness of them is an automatic.
It's this kind of thinking and teaching that is killing true Love.
Confession of sin is not asking for forgiveness.
This changing of what was accomplished by the cross,
and great lack of comprehending what was done,
and spiritual ignorance from lack of spiritual sight,
has and will continue to feed the carnal, fleshly based mindset.
And quench the Spirit of God.
Colossians 3:12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
15And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
1 John 1:5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Chapter 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
This is the progressing growing fellowship-hand in hand love that has been missed by twi and probably most of it's offshoots.
The lusts of the flesh have blinded many from this great truth.
Electing to ask forgiveness, rather then accepting it in humbleness,
has led to more and more sinning and asking forgiveness,
and is a backwards progress into a growing hatred of Christ.
I agree with grace here - I wanna see the people survive, the organization is very much seconday, wayyyyy down the list.
And there are many good people, sweet people in this organization. Some are even born again.
But some are not.
Trouble and strife seems to follow some people wherever they go. But we should be showing the fruit of the spirit if we follow Jesus. People should be gentler, kinder, more peaceful after being with us.
Richard the Bitter Quitter
so labeled by Craig Martindale and relabeled by joeoday
funny how words pop up again years later
mere coincidence eh?
BillyD, you've got guts, and it's great and I accept your Merry Christmas blessing. Back at ya'!
Abigail, you are 100% correct.
I did not write that clearly, as I was getting ready to leave for the evening.
What I meant was .... the fact that they need to replace a President--even if it's not an amiable replacement--is not a crisis. It's a normal part of organizations with Presidents.
The attitudes that would lead to calling it a crisis are the EXACT REASON THEY ARE IN what they call a crisis. These Cult Attitudes would include, but certainly not be limited to...
a) they need their salary, position or image, so they fight from selfish, fearful pride: "we can't let the other Board members take it down"!
or
b) they think God needs the organization ("the ministry I love"), so they fight from selfish, religious pride: "we can't let the other Board members take it down!
Neither attitude (or any other cult attitude) has anything to do with "he that is greatest among you shall be your servant", the obvious attitude Jesus exemplified for leaders to live from. Neither even has to do with "love one another as I have loved you", the obvious attitude Jesus exemplified for every believer to live from.
There have been crises in CES and there are crises in it today.
Those holier-than-thou attitudes, though...the ones yet to be publically repented of...are the attiudes which SPAWNED them all.
Strife in CES is not a crisis...anyone with non-cult eyes would call it a hallmark.
What has been a crisis are the wrecked marriages, wrecked families, wrecked friendships, wrecked jobs, wrecked dreams, wrecked hopes, wrecked P-E-O-P-L-E.
What is now a crisis is how FAR from the simplicity in Christ the Gs have gotten and that their children are being put through a crisis they had no cause in! What is a crisis is that the other CES leaders are no closer but appear to be thinking they are.
CRISES have to do with PEOPLE, not jobs. PEOPLE, not organizations. PEOPLE, not moving the Word over the world.
I don't call this exposing of evil a crisis.
As I've said before, I call it an answer to prayer.
"And for the one, whoever it was that says there were leaders because there were followers. I'll say who was the one leading the ones that it says they followed.
Leadership is leading by doing, serving, not doing it for you.
Paul and others were observed and seen to be doing things.
Others followed their EXAMPLE.
That don't mean the followers duplicated their every move.
And were not told what to do and how to do it.
Such a finite limited view of Christ."
Cman - I believe you were responding to me. If you weren't so be it.
Perhaps you should get to know a person before determining how limited their view of Christ is. At the very least perhaps you should make sure you understand what the post said before you make a judgment about how limited a persons view is.
Your statement here (until the last sentence), what I can gleen of it, didn't disagree with my post, as near as I can tell. As far as the last sentence - it seemed a cheap shot. I don't know a lot but I don't suspect Christ would have responded that way.
Perhaps your vision of him needs a little focus yourself.
I hung in there and fought for three years after P of a P was read, while JAL and RD and others were on their "exposing-TWI" road show. Then it dawned on me that nothing I could do was going to change anything, and I left. I purposely avoided jumping on JAL's bandwagon, although I'd been acquainted with him and liked him while in twi. I figured it was time for a break.
Fast forward to Waydale, then Greasespot. Those of us who were once deemed copouts by those who persisted longer than we did in their "hang in there and fight" stance were here with open arms to comfort those who stayed in another 5, 10, 15, 20 years--only to get used and abused by twi's leadership. Hanging in and fighting only made the "breakup" more painful for those who stayed.
Looking from the outside in, it appears that what CES has to fight for, really, is a playhouse (pretend church?) built with balsa wood. It's my contention that JAL, JS, MG, their spouses, and their "people" needed a time-out after leaving twi to get their heads screwed on straight. I have a hunch that what's coming to a head today is a result of their not taking one.
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notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
Sushi
I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
Whatsgoingon
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
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Billy D
Better check your facts before you make a statement like this:
JAL: has been running an SAT prep business in the "real world" for the past 2+ years, NOT living on donations or on CES payroll
Dan: built several construction businesses and is now semi-retired
G&K T: G is a doctor & K is a counselor - been working and serving in their community faithfully for MANY years
TomR: runs a mortgage business
Mark & JS are the only Board members who haven't worked in the "real world" recently, HOWEVER, both have worked in the "real world" in the past.
Regardless, all board positions are volunteer - Mark & JohnS are paid because they're considered CES staff members, not because they are board members.
Just making sure this is straight. Please stop accusing these people of not working a day in their lives.
Thank you,
B
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Ductape
Sure you got it.
So then the advice would be work while you steal mailing lists and start your very own " this time it really is of God ministry"?
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GarthP2000
More straw man fluff to whitewash your 'Men of God's reputations ehh, Billy D? What about all the rest of the documented accusations/information that has been laid at their feet, hmmm?
Your good ship CES/STFI is sinking. ... You might want to seriously think about how good you can swim.
<_<
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Paradiseden
Ductape
It is apparent from your last post that ON THIS TOPIC you do not have any accurate information to base your comments regarding the current crisis at CES. Because someone did something a certain way 20 + years ago, that means they would do the same thing now or that it is ok to do that now? Please, wrong is wrong, and most of the time it is not hard to tell the difference.
I do have accurate information on the current "facts" and can add further support to Billy D and his comments, which are accurate.
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Ductape
The high and mighty duc-out ductape?
Typical CES/STFI treatment extended to me as recent as, oh 2 years ago.
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socks
Hi Joe, I suspect those ideas I posted aren't new to them, and that the CES board members will do something along those lines. Getting rid of Mark G prior, to clear the decks, might be a good thing for them, I don't know, but....
Wouldn't it just set it up for a division, a split in assorted CES members to either side with Mark or individuals or TheRestOfCES?
Booting Mark out could be just amount to more politicing. Again, I don't know how they function at all if they are, what level of honest communication there is if any, or if it's all just people siding up with each other at this point, endless phone calls where details get discussed only with those who agree with you but never with anyone who actually challenges their own individual positions - where the much-honored practice of "confronting" "sinful" behavior is simply blown off as accusations, gossip, lack of "spritiuality", and condemned? Kickng Mark out of his position won't do squat if he isn't included - that's my take on the limited information I have, all read here.
I confess it's extremely naive at this point to think that it's possible for them to consider an outside neutral facilitator or arbitrator to hash out these differences, let alone actually deal with serious grievances and end up with any kind changes, if even now the people are shoring up their own positions in preparation for confrontation. But it's the only way that I know of (there may be others but I'm speaking for one opinion here and that's all) that could at least act as a catalyst to getting down to the nitty gritty on some of this stuff.
I appreciate the inclusion, but I'm not really upset. As stated, I'm not a member of this church. My only connection is to some of the people, and have only past friendships with John L, John S and Mark G and his wife. I wouldn't know any of the rest of them from a can of paint. It's not that I don't care but if I hadn't read it here I'd probably have only heard of it in January and then from only some other non-member friends. Maybe.
The people who have invested their time, life, heart and all whatever else into CES have a place in line, but not me. As Raf said somewhere around here, they owe me no explanation.
As fellow clergy of the once-Way, I have a small connection with John L, but I don't think it appropriate to approach him on any of this specifically, other than if I felt inspired I'd let him know I support him. "Him", his life, his hopes and his dreams, whatever they are now. I'm on his side, yours, Mark's, everyones. I want the bad to stop and the good times to start rolling. But I would only open that line if I felt there was an interest, and only if it could act as a catalyst. I spill a lot of verbiage here but I don't expect it to do anything other than communcate with the fellow GSers, possibly anyone who else who peeks in would get some benefit, I don't know. I'm "here", they know it. I'm not hard to find. This is a good forum for discussion, there are others appropriate too. I won't say anything to anyone that can't be documented exactly what went on, if I feel even a hint of a possibility it will be misconstrued later.
Most dyed in the wool members won't like my advice, if they're getting tanked up to dig in and go the distance with all of this. I suggest some of you get out of CES and it's influences, it's past, present and future. Clear the decks, get out. Don't even allow the possibility of some kind of negative feedback to come to you based on any BS prophecy, dreamt or otherwise, the attacks your integrity and well being.
That's not giving up, it's building, taking a first step to the rest of your life, which someday will be much bigger than all of this, believe it or not. If you have friends or associations with people you want to maintain and they love you, those trusted relationships won't end. They might change, but if they're real they won't end.
Anyway, I appreciate the opportunity to shred like this.
I was in the Way 21 years and about 17 of those were spent not seeing some of the things I originally thought important flourish, in the Way. Some things did, some things didn't. The time came when I needed to step out and see if they could or would flourish elsewhere. I did, and they did. Or are I should say. Ain't done yet! 
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cman
the ces website-
http://stfonline.org/
No real purpose is seen in any of it's pages.
All I see is people being ordered to act a certain way.
And believe what stf believes.
Yes I think the individual growth of a person is paramount.
But you can't grow in a box or cage like this.
Everyone is different, therefore this should be respected.
I do not see this respect at ces-stf whatever.
There is no purpose to promote the individuals awareness of God or Christ or the Spirit.
It's purpose is self centered on it's own choosing and not letting God work His way accordingly in a person.
They have chosen the path that God is to make.
Big mistake!
Why not just let God work His way in a person instead of caging him.
You cannot order God around.
Let God work his way.
If one puts a person or group of people on a pedastal.
They will all fall down.
No one is any more important to God then anyone else.
There is no respect of persons in this regard.
And people should be treated for what they are.
God's children.
And receive His Kingdom God's way not man's way.
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therebutforgrace
Paradiseden...and everyone else...
The "current crisis at CES" is an administrative crisis.
For those who may lose a salary, it could also be a financial crisis.
For those followers thinking CES was the solution to TWI, it is also a crisis of worldview.
For those leaders believing CES is God's vanguard to get His Truth to the world, it is a monumental crisis.
For anyone sincerely fighting "for the ministry they love," it is no doubt one of the biggest crises of their lives.
NOTE: The last 3 groups can be helped out of their crises if they will hear some of the GSers' been-there-woke-up words posted here in this answer-to-prayer forum. It's been well said here more than once: we don't serve a risen organization.
Back to the "current [administrative] crisis in CES".
Many companies have them.
>>>>>And no, they don't put it on their websites.<<<<<
If the company survives the struggle through the crisis, they send out a form letter on company letterhead to interested parties with a one or two sentence--
"Sam Smith, XYZ Widgets' CEO, has left us for personal reasons, and we wish him well"
and a 2-3 paragraph--
"We are pleased to announce that we have brought on Bob Jones, from ABC Corp. Bob has 20 years of experience in......."
I assume, if CES continues as an organization, they will do the same or perhaps, as has been said, they will make a mid-stream request for input. More on that later.
Anyway, there are several diferences between XYZ Widgets and CES, but one of those should be that believers such as you wonderful GSers are praying for godliness in the struggle (thank you socks) and a godly end (thank all of you).
THAT SAID....
The "current [administrative] crisis at CES" is but a reaping of the years of crises it has sown into its followers' lives.
Has it sown good? Yes it has. I speak from personal experience.
Has it sown evil? Yes it has. I speak from personal experience.
Did the people intend to sow the evil? Not my call. We are clearly told NOT TO judge hearts and motives...
Did they sow evil? Yes they did. We are clearly told TO judge words and actions.
We're also clearly told how to humble ourselves, submit to God, repent and get cleansed from all unrighteousness. I pray every Saint who has been involved in it in the smallest way will choose this route out of ALL of the current and future crises in CES...and in life itself.
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Jeff USAF RET
Billy D is correct......
For those of you who don't know me, I was working on staff for 6 1/2 years until two months ago.
Merry Christmas to all!!!!
Jeff
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GrouchoMarxJr
With over 500 posts and over 12.000 views on this thread, it'a apparent that this is a subject that impacts a lot of people...and it looks like part of CES's problem now is that more info and honesty is being expressed here at the GSC than in any of their "communication" channels on this subject...their people are coming here and checking all this stuff out.
...And that's a GOOD thing. There have been numerous posts on this thread that are intelligent, thoughtful and honest...posts that can be helpful to individuals who are considering their options.
I have no ill will towards any of the leaders of CES...but I call em like I see em, and frankly, some of this CES "stuff" seems really nuts to me...IMHO. I hate to see sincere people getting hurt, especially when it doesn't have to be that way. Christians should place their trust in the Lord...fellowship with others serves to build and enhance that trust...not take it's place.
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Raf
If I may offer a slightly different perspective...
If I'm CES, I'm thinking that there are maybe 10 posts on this thread, 15 at most, that are actually of value to people. The rest are gossipping, backbiting, and the same unhealthy cynicism that has haunted the ex-Way community and kept us away from GSCafe for years.
Not saying I agree with the above perspective. Just that if you're in defensive mode, that's the position you're going to embrace.
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Ductape
I think it was about 5 years ago JAL spoke about the same words to my old TWI twig after they left and he got his foot in the door. When your not bitter and ready to move ahead you'll stand with us,
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GarthP2000
'Administrative crisis' my a**!
Emphasis mine.Precisely!! Been there, done that, burnt the T-shirt.
Never again!
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Abigail
"The "current crisis at CES" is an administrative crisis. "
Perhaps you are right, Grace, and in many ways you are in a better position than I to know. However, it appears as if the crisis is more than an administrative crisis. It seems as if the crisis is one that stems from bad doctrine and/or bad practice.
I don't want to turn this into a deep theological discussion, because many of us at the cafe have a different understanding and perception of what the Bible says and there are likewise those who don't believe the Bible at all. That is why I simply made the comparision to what occured in TWI and why, and what seems to be happening to CES.
However, if you go back to PFAL, if you go back to what Jesus taught, if you go back to the O.T., and likewise in the Epistles we are told to obey God not men. Likewise, it tells us pride goes before a fall. When we get caught up in wanting, needing, or believing we are somehow more spiritual, possess special knowledge, etc. - that is the pride.
The sad thing is we are all special. But we aren't special because we have some speacial knowledge or power. We are special because each one of us is unique.
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markomalley
Abigail...you bring up a good point. Here's another one to consider:
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Mark Sanguinetti
Abigail made a good post on the top of page 27.
I am still sorting all this out. However, it sounds like CES through their witch hunt which they used to call the Prophetic Action Council (Is this the correct name?) sabotaged John Lynn and Elizabeth's marriage. A couple of questions to think about. Why is CES so meddlesome and deliberately destructive to the personal lives of others? Why didn't John Lynn take a real stand and defend Elizabeth against false accusations?
It seems apparent that CES now has copied the same horrific habits that The Way International had and has. They are ruled by a corporate hierarchy instead of following the laws of service and love that Jesus taught his disciples. They both elevate the spiritual phenomena (signs) of their rulers, ruling directors or councils above the written word of God. And above the wisdom and application of God's word that is acquired through experience, hard work and study over a period of time. In CES's case personal prophecy. In TWI's case revelation.
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Billy D
Garth,
What exactly did I do to you to deserve such a snide remark? I've heard some pretty nasty things in this thread, and your little barb is one of the worst.
Please re-read my post. Slowly. If you do, you'll see that I was responding to the allegation that the CES/STF board "never worked a day in their life." That's it. How is that an attempt to "whitewash your 'Men of God's' reputations???" I was simply responding to a LIE with fact. I said NOTHING about the rest of the accusations/information that has been "laid at their feet." And also, if you would read my posts with an open mind instead of instantly assuming you know what I think and/or feel, I have no background in TWI, so the whole "Man of God" nonsense is meaningless to me. In my opinion, ANYONE who believes in God and Jesus Christ (whether the believe in the trinity or not) is a man/woman of God, and NO better or worse than any other man/woman of God.
Please remove the mote from your eye and show me some kindness and respect.
For the record, I am upset and shocked by what I've read here and by what I've personally experienced basically since April. My wife was booted from the home office staff by a board member, for goodness sake. How do you think I feel?? So please don't assume that I'm somehow leaping to the defense of my "Men of God" and excusing what they've done. I was simply confronting a specific LIE. Period.
God bless you, and I earnestly hope that you have a Merry Christmas. In fact, I hope that you all have a Merry Christmas. Though some of the things said here have been just as hurtful as what you're judging others to have done, I can forgive you and I know our Lord will if you ask Him to.
Thank you.
~B
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therebutforgrace
BillyD, you've got guts, and it's great and I accept your Merry Christmas blessing. Back at ya'!
Abigail, you are 100% correct.
I did not write that clearly, as I was getting ready to leave for the evening.
What I meant was .... the fact that they need to replace a President--even if it's not an amiable replacement--is not a crisis. It's a normal part of organizations with Presidents.
The attitudes that would lead to calling it a crisis are the EXACT REASON THEY ARE IN what they call a crisis. These Cult Attitudes would include, but certainly not be limited to...
a) they need their salary, position or image, so they fight from selfish, fearful pride: "we can't let the other Board members take it down"!
or
b) they think God needs the organization ("the ministry I love"), so they fight from selfish, religious pride: "we can't let the other Board members take it down!
Neither attitude (or any other cult attitude) has anything to do with "he that is greatest among you shall be your servant", the obvious attitude Jesus exemplified for leaders to live from. Neither even has to do with "love one another as I have loved you", the obvious attitude Jesus exemplified for every believer to live from.
There have been crises in CES and there are crises in it today.
Those holier-than-thou attitudes, though...the ones yet to be publically repented of...are the attiudes which SPAWNED them all.
Strife in CES is not a crisis...anyone with non-cult eyes would call it a hallmark.
What has been a crisis are the wrecked marriages, wrecked families, wrecked friendships, wrecked jobs, wrecked dreams, wrecked hopes, wrecked P-E-O-P-L-E.
What is now a crisis is how FAR from the simplicity in Christ the Gs have gotten and that their children are being put through a crisis they had no cause in! What is a crisis is that the other CES leaders are no closer but appear to be thinking they are.
CRISES have to do with PEOPLE, not jobs. PEOPLE, not organizations. PEOPLE, not moving the Word over the world.
I don't call this exposing of evil a crisis.
As I've said before, I call it an answer to prayer.
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GarthP2000
Billy D,
Taken by itself, I can see where you have a point in your post about certain people 'not working a day in their lives'. But look at the overall picture here. Even given that they do 'work a day in their lives', the folks who are in the decision making process and leadership at CES are indeed hurting people with what they are doing, and this hurting has gone back as much as 10+ years, chief (And this does include the three original principals). And no doubt there has also been good work mixed in.
Guess what? This same thing has happened in TWI as well, as there were a lot of people helping others in that organization. But the overall direction of that system was turning more and more toxic, as MANY people will testify here. ... Such as it is becoming with CES more and more. And this is despite the claim that they 'are working for the Lord Jesus'. That claim by itself is worth no more than a $2.00 whore, ... with AIDS! Hell, you can have an ethical atheist that run rings around the CES leadership when it comes to doing good for people.
And you make an unsubstantiated claim yourself with your earlier snide comment about Elizabeth not being so innocent herself, ... as you give no info as to why that is (supposedly) the case. I wonder what she would say to that!
And you're damn right I have a rather hostile attitude regarding religious groups like this. They are a bane upon the human race, doing their controlling and abusive crap in the Name of Gawd. (That is but one reason why I walked away from faith based *cough* 'reasoning') And I have determined that I will not treat groups like that with respect nor kid gloves. ... Ie., I call 'em as I sees 'em.
You and your wife might be a nice people, wanting to help others. Okay, I'll grant you that. Other individuals in CES most likely are likewise. ... But the organization itself is as I referred to before, ... a ship that is sinking.
And rightfully deserves to.
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cman
Billy D.
This is not what the Lord taught nor does it have any biblical or spiritual reasoning.
Since the Lord paid for our sins, forgiveness of them is an automatic.
It's this kind of thinking and teaching that is killing true Love.
Confession of sin is not asking for forgiveness.
This changing of what was accomplished by the cross,
and great lack of comprehending what was done,
and spiritual ignorance from lack of spiritual sight,
has and will continue to feed the carnal, fleshly based mindset.
And quench the Spirit of God.
Colossians 3:12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
15And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
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cman
1 John 1:5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Chapter 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
This is the progressing growing fellowship-hand in hand love that has been missed by twi and probably most of it's offshoots.
The lusts of the flesh have blinded many from this great truth.
Electing to ask forgiveness, rather then accepting it in humbleness,
has led to more and more sinning and asking forgiveness,
and is a backwards progress into a growing hatred of Christ.
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richnchrispy
This is the Richie side of the dynamic duo
I agree with grace here - I wanna see the people survive, the organization is very much seconday, wayyyyy down the list.
And there are many good people, sweet people in this organization. Some are even born again.
But some are not.
Trouble and strife seems to follow some people wherever they go. But we should be showing the fruit of the spirit if we follow Jesus. People should be gentler, kinder, more peaceful after being with us.
Richard the Bitter Quitter
so labeled by Craig Martindale and relabeled by joeoday
funny how words pop up again years later
mere coincidence eh?
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dizzydog
Cman wrote:
"And for the one, whoever it was that says there were leaders because there were followers. I'll say who was the one leading the ones that it says they followed.
Leadership is leading by doing, serving, not doing it for you.
Paul and others were observed and seen to be doing things.
Others followed their EXAMPLE.
That don't mean the followers duplicated their every move.
And were not told what to do and how to do it.
Such a finite limited view of Christ."
Cman - I believe you were responding to me. If you weren't so be it.
Perhaps you should get to know a person before determining how limited their view of Christ is. At the very least perhaps you should make sure you understand what the post said before you make a judgment about how limited a persons view is.
Your statement here (until the last sentence), what I can gleen of it, didn't disagree with my post, as near as I can tell. As far as the last sentence - it seemed a cheap shot. I don't know a lot but I don't suspect Christ would have responded that way.
Perhaps your vision of him needs a little focus yourself.
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Dot Matrix
In total agreement
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