I know that the Board has not hired any attorneys ... They did consult with the corporate attorney over some language ....
I also know that Mark G. has retained a labor attorney but I think it is because he is concerned that he will be fired
So they haven't hired any attorneys, except the corporate attorney, and the labor attorney ... :blink:
Or are these guys working pro bono (i.e. they like sonny and cher)
Once kg allegedly found out mg could fire these guys, it already had gone to the lawyers. It is hard to imagine bylaws that left a loophole where the king could just fire everyone and (maybe eventually?) replace them with his own minions. I don't know law, it just seems someone is flucking goofy. (I didn't say they were nuts )
Even if this gets somewhat straightened out, they all need to go. Put control in the hands of the parishoners, if it is to continue at all. Thus saith the RHINO !
If I may put my two cents in, the reason so many of us are interested in this issue is because we hate to see CES go the way of TWI. For a lot of us JAL's letter to the BOT started us seriously thinking whether we wanted to stay with TWI. For many of us John L was there for us to talk to before there was a Waydale or Greasespot and help us see that the problem was with TWI, not us. Even though its been a long time since I've had anything to do with CES I still view them as my brothers in Christ and hate to see them fall. I'd love to see them come out of this with a better walk with God.
It's too bad Graeser and the others feel the need to consult labor law to do their jobs. Obviously it won't be a 'friendly' environment if he has to invoke the law to keep his job and then go to work the next day. People do it, but there's going to be fallout from it, repercussions, if he and they go that way. It may get worked out to some degree of satisfaction, buuuuut something tells me their memory chips will be making backups of what's happened.
Is it naive to think that people who operate as leaders of a Christian services ministry would be able to apply the 'law of love' and get results?
On the surface it doesn't say much about the quality of the services if they can't and if that's the case. How can you expect anyone to listen to you if you propose the 'power of God' is living and real and you have to use back-door politics and legal fine print when push comes to shove?
I may be jumping the gun but it sounds like business-as-usual.
Pass the Maalox - God and mammon - it's what's for dinner.
Hopefully everyone involved, all stakeholders in the CES paper, holdings, all of it - can and will sit down, lock the door and start talking. Everyone bring their list of concerns, make a list and prioritize the issues that get brought in, but making sure that everything that's been brought to the table is addressed.
One way to do that effectively is to appoint someone to facilitate the gathering that's uninvolved but acceptable to everyone.
First - establish a clear agenda - what's the purpose? What is going to be the end result? What are they trying to do? The first meeting might be to just air the issues, get them out and work up a document.
Second - in the same meeting, prioritize - what's essential to the group, what HAS to be worked out and decided on to continue?
Third, determine if anyone not present needs to be included. Include them.
Fourth, pray for all concerned and meet the next day, immediately following, no break.
I dunno - this is basic process and workflow stuff. Management concepts, etc. I'm not an expert, and frankly it might be more than they're ready to handle. But if problems need to be resolved and there's fires already burning, some kind of system and process needs to be established that both recognizes the issues and allows for resolution. - I mean - if they're at the point that attorneys are necessary to interpret how to protect one from the others, things are getting pretty low so it might help, might not - Keeping a job is secondary, really. It's likely that the real issues that come out of honest, loving discussion together will be entirely different than the ones that you start with. That's the deal with opening a can of worms, you have to be prepared to deal with whatever comes out and honestly try to determine what's relavant what isn't.
And this isn't meant to appear that I'm either qualified or interested in doing this, as I have no dog in the house on this, no stake in it, no membership or anything of the kind. Just giving more free advice.
They are all "biblical" sounding terms but this organization is FAR from being of God. They are self indulgent, egotistical, wannabes who have trashed the lives of many people in order to bolster their own "spirituality"...but to whom? "
IMO:
Here is the thing about all this dream sh!t. The thing I love about God is he really clarifies that he is IN CHARGE. Man is always seeking formulas to bypass God. That way we do not have to include him in anything – and we can be as gods – such as this the vending machine analogy of the law of believing. If I have all things line up and believe then God is required to do ____________ fill in the blank.
But when you look at scripture it is always different. Because Elisha lays on top of some kid doesn’t mean that is the way to be healed. It was the way GOD choose to heal the kid via Elisha THIS TIME. Or the message to wash in the Jordan – gee that is completely different than lying on top of the kid. Or when Jesus helped the guy with a son whom had seizures – in this particular case, it was a devil spirit that was cast out.
All different!
With Karen Ann’s dream interpretations, first of all, the importance of all dreams seems to be over-blown in another HUNT FOR A FORMULA. Perhaps God will give you a dream in the month of May this year, but then choose a different form of communication with you next month, or tomorrow, or in 5 minutes. The deal is GOD is the one who chooses how to talk to us and what to say. Or we place too much importance on insignificant dreams that are not godly. What a devilish trick!
Perhaps, the dream about Elizabeth’s having maggots in her hair means that people are throwing garbage at her all the time. It is stinky old garbage that is filled with maggots. And all though all can see the maggots being place on her nobody is helping her. Instead, they are just breeding more maggots but throwing more garbage.
OR maybe it is just their own evil thinking that has dripped into their own hearts and is flooding their dreams. Dreams resolve conflict and give us resolution to our days sometimes.
I saw a movie with Judge Reinhold. Later, he was incorporated in a dream… it didn’t mean much.
Yet, when my feral cat was found dead, I did have a dream about him being dead and saw where he was. I blew it off as negative believing at first. But then it did prove to be true – after he did not come to greet me a few days in a row.
God is in charge of the show.
Scriptures I referenced:
The revelation for healing in 2 Kings 4 with Elisha was:
Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.
He stretched himself upon him – he laid on top of the kid. So, someone looking for formulas can begin to lay on top of all people they pray for…..
2 Kings 5 : 10 Elisha gives a message to wash in the Jordan….
And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean
In Mark 9 we have a demon being driven out by Jesus:
14When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15"Lord, have mercy on my son," he said. "He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him."
17"O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." 18Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.
19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"
20He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
I'm going to keep saying this over and over and over and over .......
If I set up a new church on the corner and call it a "Baptist" church - no problem. (Don't start with doctrinal stuff - give me your willing suspension of disbelief for a second.) The same is true if I start a Church with any "brand name" because I'm not trying to say that I'm bigger and better (or smaller, more in the know) and in competition with other churches.
BUT, If I start a church or spinoff that claims to be a Research and teaching ministry with "new and special knowledge", well I'm then just insuring my success with those who have "itching ears."
Now I have problem because I HAVE to be bigger and better and find more elusive tidbits of truth that God apparently hid under twenty feet of granite. (Has ANYONE ever asked themselves why when we were told that 90% of all scripture is to be interpreted right in the verse that there are some that keep saying that its just not that simple and they HAVE to change it all around?!) And why is it that the stuff He "hid" is always the stuff that will "change our lives?" If its so dang important it would seem that He woulda made it easier to find. HMMMMMMMMMMMM......think about it...
So of course the stage was set for this prophecy stuff. It was something that added to the "special" knowlege of the muckety mucks in CES/STFI. Just imagine how one would feel when they could say, "Well OUR church has a prophetic counsel that makes sure we're on the right track."
Oh and isn't it the job of The National Inquirer to report "prophets" that say that they foresaw events like 9/11 but didnt' know what to do about it? I'm not PFAL geek, but I do remember vpw saying that when God gives a prophet revelation He would also tell what to do with that info......HMMMMMMMMMM.....
So - it seems that in the quest for "some new thing" that all common sense was thrown to the wind. Its as if someone said to themselves, "We have to do all we can to totally contradict PFAL." I'm not a fan of PFAL, but I can see a lost lead when I see one.
What was it that PT Barnum said........?
I am not trying to insult those here that followed the teachings of CES/ STFI, but I am trying to make sense of it all. I would truly love to never see a thread of this nature again in the future.
People are simply too precious. There is no excuse for using the name of God to manipulate folks to do one's bid and call.
I'm not so sure about all the "lawyer" talk. Someone from the office threatened lawyers when they were trying to steal some work of mine. It could be sabre rattling. Fear and manipulation. Not a loving thing to do.
What needs to happen is a shift at CES, at that time I will believe there has been a change. So far the website shows everyone who was in charge is still in charge. So no disrespect to the Cereal but there must be some sort of movement. From there website it looks stable, but how long did it take TWI to take LCM of there list of leaders. So lets see a shift then we can go jumping into these waters.
You make some great points. I believe the Board majority wants to get Mark out of office and then intends on calling in members of the community to speak to all the issues that have surfaced. The answer to many of thier problems will be found in listening to the faith community.
I know many say that they (STF leadership) hasn't listened to people. I agree, but I have also seen that people who have seen problems haven't gone about it the right way. They don't hang in there and fight. I know it's hard because they get emotionally beat up. Unfortuantely, it has taken some casualties for the pattern to emerge.
Elizabeth was treated wrong and the prophetic words were very wrong and destructive, but I agree with someone earlier who said that she is not exactly innocent either. I am not trying to put more on her than should be but the truth between her and John Lynn probably lies somewhere in the middle.
I know that Sue C. saw a lot of problems too. Unfortuantely she was never in a place of power where she could effect some real change. And Sue left (I don't lay anything on her for it) but she wasn't thown out.
Rich and Chrispy, I know that you too have spoken up but have you really hung in there and tried to effect change? I've experienced you as sitting on the sidelines and doing a lot of carping and stone thowing. Rich you publicly gave that baby-poop in my diapers word of prophecy at a STF event in California three to four years ago. Come on brother, do you really think that was supposed to effect change? It was disgusting then and still is today. You criticize others for thier so called prophetic words and then you do the same thing with that "word." Brother your anger is clear, and maybe even righteously caused but you have become bitter and it is only harming you.
Chris, you say that Dan made deliverance available at a STF event , even indicating he used a questionnare etc. that probed into personal sexual issues. He does use a questionnare for those that privately meet for deliverance. It has never been used at a STF event. He has made personal ministry available for prayer and healing for physical, mental, and emotional needs. You do the Body great harm when you misspeak. He and Lori have served the Body with a deliverance ministry and set many of our brothers and sisters free of demonic influences. He does use a Pre-counseling questionnare but he does not use it against people. If people aren't willing to deal openly and honestly about their sinful issues then how do you expect them to be helped? You say he has broken confidences with it. Have you ever brought these charges against him according to matt 18? Do you have any first hand experience of this or are you basing your statements on what E says? Check your source sister.
If any of you really believe in what this ministry is trying to do then how about picking up pen and paper and writing to Board members and speaking up. Spread the word through the faith community. I think GS is great but really guys, this is not the place to make a change? I think not. Cap'n, Dmiller, TBFG, Socks, get the paper and pen out and let them know that you are upset.
I respect Jeff, Billy D., Matt, etc because they do seem to be fighting for this ministry. I don't respect naysayers and those who crab but do nothing constructive about it.
There, got it off my chest and have vented. Bring on your comments.
Finally,
If God is in it then it can not fail, if he's not, then it can not succeed.
Joe
Ckmkeon,
How do you expect them to change a website when they have fired everyone?
"They don't hang in there and fight. I know it's hard because they get emotionally beat up. Unfortuantely, it has taken some casualties for the pattern to emerge."
How does one hang in there and fight when they hold no power within the organization? [The answer to that question is very simple. Bring it out of hiding and expose it to the public]. Fight and the next thing you know, prophesies of spiders are being said about you, no? And why fight? Why hang in there? One does not need an organization to fellowship with God or with people.
No organization is more important than the people it is supposed to be helping. Better for the organization to be the casualty than the innocent people.
"Elizabeth was treated wrong and the prophetic words were very wrong and destructive, but I agree with someone earlier who said that she is not exactly innocent either."
Innocent or not, there is no excuse for the meddling others did. To me, that is what is as issue here. The issue isn't who was right and who was wrong between John and Elizabeth, the issue is the degree and type of interference that took place. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that those who meddled had their own agenda and motives. They didn't give a rats behind about the marriage, the individuals, or God.
"He and Lori have served the Body with a deliverance ministry and set many of our brothers and sisters free of demonic influences. He does use a Pre-counseling questionnare but he does not use it against people."
Is Dan educated and or licensed in psychology? I ask, because if he is NOT, then he has no business messing around with other people's heads. Very dangerous waters there.
"If people aren't willing to deal openly and honestly about their sinful issues then how do you expect them to be helped? "
Perhaps so. But people would also be very wise to deeply consider who it is they are revealing their "sinful issues" to, no? Again, it would very much appear that at least a few of the higher ups are not worthy of such trust, no?
"If any of you really believe in what this ministry is trying to do then how about picking up pen and paper and writing to Board members and speaking up. "
I openly admit I don't really give a rats behind what CES claims it is trying to do. What I do care about, what does deeply bother me, is seeing people from CES experiencing the same horrors and pains that I experienced via TWI. So, I did speak up and write, and I did so in a gentle and non-threatening manner. Haven't heard anything back yet, though.
"I think GS is great but really guys, this is not the place to make a change?"
Yes. TWI has made changes as a result of the cafe. Those changes may only be surface changes, and they may only be temporary, but they are changes nontheless. Likewise, the feedback I have seen on this thread seems to indicate CES is at least looking into some changes. When an organization becomes corrupt, a very public forum like this is often a great way to bring that corruption to light. Pretty hard to hide it in the closet with a place like the cafe, eh? Likewise, asking an organization to investigate itself is like asking the fox to guard the chicken coop. It often requires the public exposure of those who are corrupt to motivate the rest to remove them from power.
"I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, 'I had a dream! I had a dream!'
"How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds?"
Jeremiah 23:25&26 NIV
Don't they even read the Bible anymore?
But who would need to? If we want moral instruction, we can fix the flesh through the fleshly means instilled by Momentus. If we want to know God's will, we can have The Prophetess For Our Day And Time interpret our dreams, if we describe them in 25 words or less.
Horrified? Yes.
Saddened? Yes
Surprised? No. This is a natural progression from things the leaders of CES were doing when I left ten years ago.
They don't hang in there and fight. I know it's hard because they get emotionally beat up. Unfortuantely, it has taken some casualties for the pattern to emerge.
Sorry, but this rings too familiar.
I hung in there and fought for three years after P of a P was read, while JAL and RD and others were on their "exposing-TWI" road show. Then it dawned on me that nothing I could do was going to change anything, and I left. I purposely avoided jumping on JAL's bandwagon, although I'd been acquainted with him and liked him while in twi. I figured it was time for a break.
Fast forward to Waydale, then Greasespot. Those of us who were once deemed copouts by those who persisted longer than we did in their "hang in there and fight" stance were here with open arms to comfort those who stayed in another 5, 10, 15, 20 years--only to get used and abused by twi's leadership. Hanging in and fighting only made the "breakup" more painful for those who stayed.
Looking from the outside in, it appears that what CES has to fight for, really, is a playhouse (pretend church?) built with balsa wood. It's my contention that JAL, JS, MG, their spouses, and their "people" needed a time-out after leaving twi to get their heads screwed on straight. I have a hunch that what's coming to a head today is a result of their not taking one.
I know many say that they (STF leadership) hasn't listened to people. I agree, but I have also seen that people who have seen problems haven't gone about it the right way. They don't hang in there and fight. I know it's hard because they get emotionally beat up. Unfortuantely, it has taken some casualties for the pattern to emerge.
Elizabeth was treated wrong and the prophetic words were very wrong and destructive, but I agree with someone earlier who said that she is not exactly innocent either. I am not trying to put more on her than should be but the truth between her and John Lynn probably lies somewhere in the middle.
I know that Sue C. saw a lot of problems too. Unfortunately she was never in a place of power where she could effect some real change. And Sue left (I don't lay anything on her for it) but she wasn't thown out.
Rich and Chrispy, I know that you too have spoken up but have you really hung in there and tried to effect change? I've experienced you as sitting on the sidelines and doing a lot of carping and stone thowing. Rich you publicly gave that baby-poop in my diapers word of prophecy at a STF event in California three to four years ago. Come on brother, do you really think that was supposed to effect change? It was disgusting then and still is today. You criticize others for thier so called prophetic words and then you do the same thing with that "word." Brother your anger is clear, and maybe even righteously caused but you have become bitter and it is only harming you.
Chris, you say that Dan made deliverance available at a STF event , even indicating he used a questionnare etc. that probed into personal sexual issues. He does use a questionnare for those that privately meet for deliverance. It has never been used at a STF event. He has made personal ministry available for prayer and healing for physical, mental, and emotional needs. You do the Body great harm when you misspeak. He and Lori have served the Body with a deliverance ministry and set many of our brothers and sisters free of demonic influences. He does use a Pre-counseling questionnare but he does not use it against people. If people aren't willing to deal openly and honestly about their sinful issues then how do you expect them to be helped? You say he has broken confidences with it. Have you ever brought these charges against him according to matt 18? Do you have any first hand experience of this or are you basing your statements on what E says? Check your source sister.
If any of you really believe in what this ministry is trying to do then how about picking up pen and paper and writing to Board members and speaking up. Spread the word through the faith community. I think GS is great but really guys, this is not the place to make a change? I think not. Cap'n, Dmiller, TBFG, Socks, get the paper and pen out and let them know that you are upset.
I respect Jeff, Billy D., Matt, etc because they do seem to be fighting for this ministry. I don't respect naysayers and those who crab but do nothing constructive about it.
There, got it off my chest and have vented. Bring on your comments.
Finally,
If God is in it then it can not fail, if he's not, then it can not succeed.
Joe
Ckmkeon,
How do you expect them to change a website when they have fired everyone?
Joe
This is Richard
OK I know who you are. That vision God showed me several years before (at the time unknown to me the Carlsons and Stones were being pushed out) was shared at that conference with one person and not in public. Remember the conversation we had at the end of one of the evenings and you asked me why I had not been around and if I still had a problem with Mark? And we were supposed to keep talking via phone after the conf but we both had problems finding the time to meet up? I live in Houston.
And the vision was a personal one to me about what God wanted me to do and what was available to me to do in the situation. Now I did not receive this from another prophet but from God. So if you would like to war with God go ahead. And after well over ten years of involvement since 1987 with JAL etc.
Now has the vision come to pass? I rest my case. Who in this ministry has not been trashed at one time or another by this foolishness.
About the Carlsons - they seem to have a very different opinion of whether they left voluntarily or whether they were run off. They also seem to have a strong opinion about a board member who was supposed to support them at their last board meeting - and who did not. The opinion I hear from several sources about you even recently is two faced. Playing both sides. Do not trust him.
And, where has all of the board correspondence come from that is going public in various phases - who has been the pipeline for that? What could possibly be the agenda that you are pushing here? Using others as your front men and then dissing them? "Oh I am so pure! Why are these people posting confidential material?"
Letter writing to CES was a waste of time as nothing ever came back from the throne in writing. Phone call consisted of "I never said that!" Where have you heard that before?
Read the vision again - I obeyed God. God was pretty graphic wasn't He? There is no reasoning with toddlers - they are totally tied into their limbic brains. "Mine! Mine! Give that back to me. Mine!"
Better an angry wise man than a non-emotional fool. Go momentisize someone else.
Some thoughts I had as I made my way through the madness that is the grocery store, the weekend before Christmas. :blink:
It seems to me, CES is where it is today, because its foundation was flawed, just like TWI's foundation was flawed. There were/are no checks and balances in place at the top, to insure those at the top are truly looking after the flock. But even more important is the founding premise. Someone on this thread or another, I'm thinking Dooj or CW, though I could be wrong, talked about the notion that we were going to find keys to the Bible that had long been lost. That we were going to find knowledge that others didn't have. That is pure ego. It is ego that wracked and ruined TWI and hurt so many of its followers, and it is ego that is wreaking havoc in CES and hurting its followers.
I'm not saying any or all of us went into it out of ego. Some may have, I'm betting most did not. When I got involved with TWI, I was young, lost, bedraggeled, beaten, and shamed (emotionally and spiritually). I was looking for answers about God, I was looking for direction, I was looking for love, forgiveness, and acceptance. I thought I found all of those things rolled into one organization.
However, over time ego did step in. I did begin to feel I was special, called out to God, filled with a knowledge and power that most of the world didn't know. At least, I felt that way for a time. Eventually, those with a "higher standing"/level of authority within the organization once again beat me down and shamed me. In many ways, what they did was far worse though, because they did it in God's name and they did it in much deeper and more harmful ways. The system was set up so that you basically had to climb over people, squash them, to climb the ladder. Those with the biggest egos, the loudest voices, and/or possession of greater charsima made it to the top, the rest were the rungs they climbed on their way up.
The other premise, that crept in, if it wasn't there from the beginning, is the idea that we are to obey men rather than God. That those in leadership positions are somehow God's spokespeople and somehow know more about what is best for us than we do. It is a faulty and very dangerous premise. It is dangerous because it feeds into the ego of those who are leaders, and it is dangerous because it teaches the flock to obey men, instead of heeding what God is telling them.
That is what I see in the prophesies made about Elizabeth. Ego through and through. How dare anyone think so much of themselves that they could do that to another human being!! There is not a single ounce of meekeness, love, or godliness in that. The same ego that drives the "prophetic council" is the same ego that drove LCM and so many other leaders, as they went on their witch hunt under the guise of "revelation" and "genuine spiritual suspicion".
CES will never be a godly organization because faulty premises are promulgated and because it is driven by ego, not love or godliness. They are the same faulty premises of TWI. And no wonder, look where they learned them.
"I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, 'I had a dream! I had a dream!'
"How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds?"
Jeremiah 23:25&26 NIV
Don't they even read the Bible anymore?
But who would need to? If we want moral instruction, we can fix the flesh through the fleshly means instilled by Momentus. If we want to know God's will, we can have The Prophetess For Our Day And Time interpret our dreams, if we describe them in 25 words or less.
Horrified? Yes.
Saddened? Yes
Surprised? No. This is a natural progression from things the leaders of CES were doing when I left ten years ago.
More later.
Love,
Steve
Agreed and isn't "Dan" one of the ones to fix things -- the Momentus guru? Sorry folks, this all gagged me years ago and I walked away from them. Now it just makes me sad.
Again -- people looking to a man with a class.... or maybe he is classless now....
"CES will never be a godly organization because faulty premises are promulgated and because it is driven by ego, not love or godliness. They are the same faulty premises of TWI. And no wonder, look where they learned them."
Would this sticking in there and fighting be along the same lines as JAL taking off his green nametag at that last ROA he attended while he was having green nametag mailing lists copied and he almost ran me over in front of the big top fishing for green nametags? Would this stick in there and fight be like when his couple in my home limb distracted the LC while their partner copied the limbs TC mailing list?
Perhaps I should have been more thankful for finally being important enough to make some mailing list.
So all the faithful follow JAL’s own example and rip off all the info you can from STFI while getting out and forming your very own “but this time it really is of God ministry”. It worked for JAL and the board; not one has had to work a real job yet in their lives!
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notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
Sushi
I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
Whatsgoingon
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
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rhino
Or are these guys working pro bono (i.e. they like sonny and cher)
Once kg allegedly found out mg could fire these guys, it already had gone to the lawyers. It is hard to imagine bylaws that left a loophole where the king could just fire everyone and (maybe eventually?) replace them with his own minions. I don't know law, it just seems someone is flucking goofy. (I didn't say they were nuts
)
Even if this gets somewhat straightened out, they all need to go. Put control in the hands of the parishoners, if it is to continue at all. Thus saith the RHINO !
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excathedra
i just don't know what to say
oh i just thought of something to say
please tell karen anne i'm p*ssed at her about 9/11
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Raf
As I've said, as someone who is no longer in the STFI/CES community, I do not feel these guys owe me any explanation of anything.
If anyone is still giving to CES or considers himself/herself a part of it, feel free to "plagiarize" my questions. I won't sue.
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joeoday
Glad to see there are so many intelligent reponses on this site.
J
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excathedra
i knew these people before they were poobears
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TOMMYZ
If I may put my two cents in, the reason so many of us are interested in this issue is because we hate to see CES go the way of TWI. For a lot of us JAL's letter to the BOT started us seriously thinking whether we wanted to stay with TWI. For many of us John L was there for us to talk to before there was a Waydale or Greasespot and help us see that the problem was with TWI, not us. Even though its been a long time since I've had anything to do with CES I still view them as my brothers in Christ and hate to see them fall. I'd love to see them come out of this with a better walk with God.
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dmiller
TOMMYZ -- I agree.
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socks
Thanks Joe. That clarifies that.
It's too bad Graeser and the others feel the need to consult labor law to do their jobs. Obviously it won't be a 'friendly' environment if he has to invoke the law to keep his job and then go to work the next day. People do it, but there's going to be fallout from it, repercussions, if he and they go that way. It may get worked out to some degree of satisfaction, buuuuut something tells me their memory chips will be making backups of what's happened.
Is it naive to think that people who operate as leaders of a Christian services ministry would be able to apply the 'law of love' and get results?
On the surface it doesn't say much about the quality of the services if they can't and if that's the case. How can you expect anyone to listen to you if you propose the 'power of God' is living and real and you have to use back-door politics and legal fine print when push comes to shove?
I may be jumping the gun but it sounds like business-as-usual.
Pass the Maalox - God and mammon - it's what's for dinner.
Hopefully everyone involved, all stakeholders in the CES paper, holdings, all of it - can and will sit down, lock the door and start talking. Everyone bring their list of concerns, make a list and prioritize the issues that get brought in, but making sure that everything that's been brought to the table is addressed.
One way to do that effectively is to appoint someone to facilitate the gathering that's uninvolved but acceptable to everyone.
First - establish a clear agenda - what's the purpose? What is going to be the end result? What are they trying to do? The first meeting might be to just air the issues, get them out and work up a document.
Second - in the same meeting, prioritize - what's essential to the group, what HAS to be worked out and decided on to continue?
Third, determine if anyone not present needs to be included. Include them.
Fourth, pray for all concerned and meet the next day, immediately following, no break.
I dunno - this is basic process and workflow stuff. Management concepts, etc. I'm not an expert, and frankly it might be more than they're ready to handle. But if problems need to be resolved and there's fires already burning, some kind of system and process needs to be established that both recognizes the issues and allows for resolution. - I mean - if they're at the point that attorneys are necessary to interpret how to protect one from the others, things are getting pretty low so it might help, might not - Keeping a job is secondary, really. It's likely that the real issues that come out of honest, loving discussion together will be entirely different than the ones that you start with. That's the deal with opening a can of worms, you have to be prepared to deal with whatever comes out and honestly try to determine what's relavant what isn't.
And this isn't meant to appear that I'm either qualified or interested in doing this, as I have no dog in the house on this, no stake in it, no membership or anything of the kind. Just giving more free advice.
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Dot Matrix
Groucho - Great post - that is telling it like it is!
I love this:
"Prophetic council?...head prophetess?...dream interpretations?
They are all "biblical" sounding terms but this organization is FAR from being of God. They are self indulgent, egotistical, wannabes who have trashed the lives of many people in order to bolster their own "spirituality"...but to whom? "
IMO:
Here is the thing about all this dream sh!t. The thing I love about God is he really clarifies that he is IN CHARGE. Man is always seeking formulas to bypass God. That way we do not have to include him in anything – and we can be as gods – such as this the vending machine analogy of the law of believing. If I have all things line up and believe then God is required to do ____________ fill in the blank.
But when you look at scripture it is always different. Because Elisha lays on top of some kid doesn’t mean that is the way to be healed. It was the way GOD choose to heal the kid via Elisha THIS TIME. Or the message to wash in the Jordan – gee that is completely different than lying on top of the kid. Or when Jesus helped the guy with a son whom had seizures – in this particular case, it was a devil spirit that was cast out.
All different!
With Karen Ann’s dream interpretations, first of all, the importance of all dreams seems to be over-blown in another HUNT FOR A FORMULA. Perhaps God will give you a dream in the month of May this year, but then choose a different form of communication with you next month, or tomorrow, or in 5 minutes. The deal is GOD is the one who chooses how to talk to us and what to say. Or we place too much importance on insignificant dreams that are not godly. What a devilish trick!
Perhaps, the dream about Elizabeth’s having maggots in her hair means that people are throwing garbage at her all the time. It is stinky old garbage that is filled with maggots. And all though all can see the maggots being place on her nobody is helping her. Instead, they are just breeding more maggots but throwing more garbage.
OR maybe it is just their own evil thinking that has dripped into their own hearts and is flooding their dreams. Dreams resolve conflict and give us resolution to our days sometimes.
I saw a movie with Judge Reinhold. Later, he was incorporated in a dream… it didn’t mean much.
Yet, when my feral cat was found dead, I did have a dream about him being dead and saw where he was. I blew it off as negative believing at first. But then it did prove to be true – after he did not come to greet me a few days in a row.
God is in charge of the show.
Scriptures I referenced:
The revelation for healing in 2 Kings 4 with Elisha was:
Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.
He stretched himself upon him – he laid on top of the kid. So, someone looking for formulas can begin to lay on top of all people they pray for…..
2 Kings 5 : 10 Elisha gives a message to wash in the Jordan….
And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean
In Mark 9 we have a demon being driven out by Jesus:
14When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15"Lord, have mercy on my son," he said. "He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him."
17"O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." 18Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.
19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"
20He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
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doojable
I'm going to keep saying this over and over and over and over .......
If I set up a new church on the corner and call it a "Baptist" church - no problem. (Don't start with doctrinal stuff - give me your willing suspension of disbelief for a second.) The same is true if I start a Church with any "brand name" because I'm not trying to say that I'm bigger and better (or smaller, more in the know) and in competition with other churches.
BUT, If I start a church or spinoff that claims to be a Research and teaching ministry with "new and special knowledge", well I'm then just insuring my success with those who have "itching ears."
Now I have problem because I HAVE to be bigger and better and find more elusive tidbits of truth that God apparently hid under twenty feet of granite. (Has ANYONE ever asked themselves why when we were told that 90% of all scripture is to be interpreted right in the verse that there are some that keep saying that its just not that simple and they HAVE to change it all around?!) And why is it that the stuff He "hid" is always the stuff that will "change our lives?" If its so dang important it would seem that He woulda made it easier to find. HMMMMMMMMMMMM......think about it...
So of course the stage was set for this prophecy stuff. It was something that added to the "special" knowlege of the muckety mucks in CES/STFI. Just imagine how one would feel when they could say, "Well OUR church has a prophetic counsel that makes sure we're on the right track."
Oh and isn't it the job of The National Inquirer to report "prophets" that say that they foresaw events like 9/11 but didnt' know what to do about it? I'm not PFAL geek, but I do remember vpw saying that when God gives a prophet revelation He would also tell what to do with that info......HMMMMMMMMMM.....
So - it seems that in the quest for "some new thing" that all common sense was thrown to the wind. Its as if someone said to themselves, "We have to do all we can to totally contradict PFAL." I'm not a fan of PFAL, but I can see a lost lead when I see one.
What was it that PT Barnum said........?
I am not trying to insult those here that followed the teachings of CES/ STFI, but I am trying to make sense of it all. I would truly love to never see a thread of this nature again in the future.
People are simply too precious. There is no excuse for using the name of God to manipulate folks to do one's bid and call.
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soulsurfer
I'm not so sure about all the "lawyer" talk. Someone from the office threatened lawyers when they were trying to steal some work of mine. It could be sabre rattling. Fear and manipulation. Not a loving thing to do.
soulsurfer
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ckmkeon
What needs to happen is a shift at CES, at that time I will believe there has been a change. So far the website shows everyone who was in charge is still in charge. So no disrespect to the Cereal but there must be some sort of movement. From there website it looks stable, but how long did it take TWI to take LCM of there list of leaders. So lets see a shift then we can go jumping into these waters.
CK
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joeoday
Socks,
You make some great points. I believe the Board majority wants to get Mark out of office and then intends on calling in members of the community to speak to all the issues that have surfaced. The answer to many of thier problems will be found in listening to the faith community.
Joe
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joeoday
I know many say that they (STF leadership) hasn't listened to people. I agree, but I have also seen that people who have seen problems haven't gone about it the right way. They don't hang in there and fight. I know it's hard because they get emotionally beat up. Unfortuantely, it has taken some casualties for the pattern to emerge.
Elizabeth was treated wrong and the prophetic words were very wrong and destructive, but I agree with someone earlier who said that she is not exactly innocent either. I am not trying to put more on her than should be but the truth between her and John Lynn probably lies somewhere in the middle.
I know that Sue C. saw a lot of problems too. Unfortuantely she was never in a place of power where she could effect some real change. And Sue left (I don't lay anything on her for it) but she wasn't thown out.
Rich and Chrispy, I know that you too have spoken up but have you really hung in there and tried to effect change? I've experienced you as sitting on the sidelines and doing a lot of carping and stone thowing. Rich you publicly gave that baby-poop in my diapers word of prophecy at a STF event in California three to four years ago. Come on brother, do you really think that was supposed to effect change? It was disgusting then and still is today. You criticize others for thier so called prophetic words and then you do the same thing with that "word." Brother your anger is clear, and maybe even righteously caused but you have become bitter and it is only harming you.
Chris, you say that Dan made deliverance available at a STF event , even indicating he used a questionnare etc. that probed into personal sexual issues. He does use a questionnare for those that privately meet for deliverance. It has never been used at a STF event. He has made personal ministry available for prayer and healing for physical, mental, and emotional needs. You do the Body great harm when you misspeak. He and Lori have served the Body with a deliverance ministry and set many of our brothers and sisters free of demonic influences. He does use a Pre-counseling questionnare but he does not use it against people. If people aren't willing to deal openly and honestly about their sinful issues then how do you expect them to be helped? You say he has broken confidences with it. Have you ever brought these charges against him according to matt 18? Do you have any first hand experience of this or are you basing your statements on what E says? Check your source sister.
If any of you really believe in what this ministry is trying to do then how about picking up pen and paper and writing to Board members and speaking up. Spread the word through the faith community. I think GS is great but really guys, this is not the place to make a change? I think not. Cap'n, Dmiller, TBFG, Socks, get the paper and pen out and let them know that you are upset.
I respect Jeff, Billy D., Matt, etc because they do seem to be fighting for this ministry. I don't respect naysayers and those who crab but do nothing constructive about it.
There, got it off my chest and have vented. Bring on your comments.
Finally,
If God is in it then it can not fail, if he's not, then it can not succeed.
Joe
Ckmkeon,
How do you expect them to change a website when they have fired everyone?
Joe
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Abigail
"They don't hang in there and fight. I know it's hard because they get emotionally beat up. Unfortuantely, it has taken some casualties for the pattern to emerge."
How does one hang in there and fight when they hold no power within the organization? [The answer to that question is very simple. Bring it out of hiding and expose it to the public]. Fight and the next thing you know, prophesies of spiders are being said about you, no? And why fight? Why hang in there? One does not need an organization to fellowship with God or with people.
No organization is more important than the people it is supposed to be helping. Better for the organization to be the casualty than the innocent people.
"Elizabeth was treated wrong and the prophetic words were very wrong and destructive, but I agree with someone earlier who said that she is not exactly innocent either."
Innocent or not, there is no excuse for the meddling others did. To me, that is what is as issue here. The issue isn't who was right and who was wrong between John and Elizabeth, the issue is the degree and type of interference that took place. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that those who meddled had their own agenda and motives. They didn't give a rats behind about the marriage, the individuals, or God.
"He and Lori have served the Body with a deliverance ministry and set many of our brothers and sisters free of demonic influences. He does use a Pre-counseling questionnare but he does not use it against people."
Is Dan educated and or licensed in psychology? I ask, because if he is NOT, then he has no business messing around with other people's heads. Very dangerous waters there.
"If people aren't willing to deal openly and honestly about their sinful issues then how do you expect them to be helped? "
Perhaps so. But people would also be very wise to deeply consider who it is they are revealing their "sinful issues" to, no? Again, it would very much appear that at least a few of the higher ups are not worthy of such trust, no?
"If any of you really believe in what this ministry is trying to do then how about picking up pen and paper and writing to Board members and speaking up. "
I openly admit I don't really give a rats behind what CES claims it is trying to do. What I do care about, what does deeply bother me, is seeing people from CES experiencing the same horrors and pains that I experienced via TWI. So, I did speak up and write, and I did so in a gentle and non-threatening manner. Haven't heard anything back yet, though.
"I think GS is great but really guys, this is not the place to make a change?"
Yes. TWI has made changes as a result of the cafe. Those changes may only be surface changes, and they may only be temporary, but they are changes nontheless. Likewise, the feedback I have seen on this thread seems to indicate CES is at least looking into some changes. When an organization becomes corrupt, a very public forum like this is often a great way to bring that corruption to light. Pretty hard to hide it in the closet with a place like the cafe, eh? Likewise, asking an organization to investigate itself is like asking the fox to guard the chicken coop. It often requires the public exposure of those who are corrupt to motivate the rest to remove them from power.
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Steve Lortz
"I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, 'I had a dream! I had a dream!'
"How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds?"
Jeremiah 23:25&26 NIV
Don't they even read the Bible anymore?
But who would need to? If we want moral instruction, we can fix the flesh through the fleshly means instilled by Momentus. If we want to know God's will, we can have The Prophetess For Our Day And Time interpret our dreams, if we describe them in 25 words or less.
Horrified? Yes.
Saddened? Yes
Surprised? No. This is a natural progression from things the leaders of CES were doing when I left ten years ago.
More later.
Love,
Steve
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Raf
Steve Lortz is back!
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Linda Z
Joeoday said:
Sorry, but this rings too familiar.
I hung in there and fought for three years after P of a P was read, while JAL and RD and others were on their "exposing-TWI" road show. Then it dawned on me that nothing I could do was going to change anything, and I left. I purposely avoided jumping on JAL's bandwagon, although I'd been acquainted with him and liked him while in twi. I figured it was time for a break.
Fast forward to Waydale, then Greasespot. Those of us who were once deemed copouts by those who persisted longer than we did in their "hang in there and fight" stance were here with open arms to comfort those who stayed in another 5, 10, 15, 20 years--only to get used and abused by twi's leadership. Hanging in and fighting only made the "breakup" more painful for those who stayed.
Looking from the outside in, it appears that what CES has to fight for, really, is a playhouse (pretend church?) built with balsa wood. It's my contention that JAL, JS, MG, their spouses, and their "people" needed a time-out after leaving twi to get their heads screwed on straight. I have a hunch that what's coming to a head today is a result of their not taking one.
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richnchrispy
This is Richard
OK I know who you are. That vision God showed me several years before (at the time unknown to me the Carlsons and Stones were being pushed out) was shared at that conference with one person and not in public. Remember the conversation we had at the end of one of the evenings and you asked me why I had not been around and if I still had a problem with Mark? And we were supposed to keep talking via phone after the conf but we both had problems finding the time to meet up? I live in Houston.
And the vision was a personal one to me about what God wanted me to do and what was available to me to do in the situation. Now I did not receive this from another prophet but from God. So if you would like to war with God go ahead. And after well over ten years of involvement since 1987 with JAL etc.
Now has the vision come to pass? I rest my case. Who in this ministry has not been trashed at one time or another by this foolishness.
About the Carlsons - they seem to have a very different opinion of whether they left voluntarily or whether they were run off. They also seem to have a strong opinion about a board member who was supposed to support them at their last board meeting - and who did not. The opinion I hear from several sources about you even recently is two faced. Playing both sides. Do not trust him.
And, where has all of the board correspondence come from that is going public in various phases - who has been the pipeline for that? What could possibly be the agenda that you are pushing here? Using others as your front men and then dissing them? "Oh I am so pure! Why are these people posting confidential material?"
Letter writing to CES was a waste of time as nothing ever came back from the throne in writing. Phone call consisted of "I never said that!" Where have you heard that before?
Read the vision again - I obeyed God. God was pretty graphic wasn't He? There is no reasoning with toddlers - they are totally tied into their limbic brains. "Mine! Mine! Give that back to me. Mine!"
Better an angry wise man than a non-emotional fool. Go momentisize someone else.
Richard
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Abigail
Well said, Steve and Linda.
Some thoughts I had as I made my way through the madness that is the grocery store, the weekend before Christmas. :blink:
It seems to me, CES is where it is today, because its foundation was flawed, just like TWI's foundation was flawed. There were/are no checks and balances in place at the top, to insure those at the top are truly looking after the flock. But even more important is the founding premise. Someone on this thread or another, I'm thinking Dooj or CW, though I could be wrong, talked about the notion that we were going to find keys to the Bible that had long been lost. That we were going to find knowledge that others didn't have. That is pure ego. It is ego that wracked and ruined TWI and hurt so many of its followers, and it is ego that is wreaking havoc in CES and hurting its followers.
I'm not saying any or all of us went into it out of ego. Some may have, I'm betting most did not. When I got involved with TWI, I was young, lost, bedraggeled, beaten, and shamed (emotionally and spiritually). I was looking for answers about God, I was looking for direction, I was looking for love, forgiveness, and acceptance. I thought I found all of those things rolled into one organization.
However, over time ego did step in. I did begin to feel I was special, called out to God, filled with a knowledge and power that most of the world didn't know. At least, I felt that way for a time. Eventually, those with a "higher standing"/level of authority within the organization once again beat me down and shamed me. In many ways, what they did was far worse though, because they did it in God's name and they did it in much deeper and more harmful ways. The system was set up so that you basically had to climb over people, squash them, to climb the ladder. Those with the biggest egos, the loudest voices, and/or possession of greater charsima made it to the top, the rest were the rungs they climbed on their way up.
The other premise, that crept in, if it wasn't there from the beginning, is the idea that we are to obey men rather than God. That those in leadership positions are somehow God's spokespeople and somehow know more about what is best for us than we do. It is a faulty and very dangerous premise. It is dangerous because it feeds into the ego of those who are leaders, and it is dangerous because it teaches the flock to obey men, instead of heeding what God is telling them.
That is what I see in the prophesies made about Elizabeth. Ego through and through. How dare anyone think so much of themselves that they could do that to another human being!! There is not a single ounce of meekeness, love, or godliness in that. The same ego that drives the "prophetic council" is the same ego that drove LCM and so many other leaders, as they went on their witch hunt under the guise of "revelation" and "genuine spiritual suspicion".
CES will never be a godly organization because faulty premises are promulgated and because it is driven by ego, not love or godliness. They are the same faulty premises of TWI. And no wonder, look where they learned them.
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Dot Matrix
Agreed and isn't "Dan" one of the ones to fix things -- the Momentus guru? Sorry folks, this all gagged me years ago and I walked away from them. Now it just makes me sad.
Again -- people looking to a man with a class.... or maybe he is classless now....
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TheInvisibleDan
Is he the One?
(lol)
Welcome back Steve.
Danny
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Dot Matrix
Abagail:
well stated:
"CES will never be a godly organization because faulty premises are promulgated and because it is driven by ego, not love or godliness. They are the same faulty premises of TWI. And no wonder, look where they learned them."
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Ductape
So JoeODaydude:
Would this sticking in there and fighting be along the same lines as JAL taking off his green nametag at that last ROA he attended while he was having green nametag mailing lists copied and he almost ran me over in front of the big top fishing for green nametags? Would this stick in there and fight be like when his couple in my home limb distracted the LC while their partner copied the limbs TC mailing list?
Perhaps I should have been more thankful for finally being important enough to make some mailing list.
So all the faithful follow JAL’s own example and rip off all the info you can from STFI while getting out and forming your very own “but this time it really is of God ministry”. It worked for JAL and the board; not one has had to work a real job yet in their lives!
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