That “leaders” have offended us doesn’t mean that the scriptures do not indicate that there are no leaders and followers. I can think of at least 4-5 records in the epistles where the people of the first century church are encouraged to be followers of Paul or others. The issue isn’t whether someone leads; the issue is where are they leading. For the Christian the answer can only be to one place – Christ. Also - just because someone once led doesn’t bestow the mantle of leadership once and for all and for all time – his ministry shouldn’t define who he is, Christ should. If Jesus Christ is the head he will energize different ministries to step up to the role they are best suited for as the needs come up. I therefore as a humble servant to my Lord will know when to be humble when he is directing a brother to lead and I will know when to lead – once again in humility to my Lord. I will also know, in full confidence, when to rebuke an unfruitful work of darkness.
If a man has a ministry (which I believe all believers have something to serve) one of his real qualities as a leader will be seen when he is called on to be meek to another minister when Jesus Christ is calling on that other minister to edify the body of Christ. If my pride comes from what Jesus Christ accomplished and not from my own accomplishments then I will never feel threatened when I need to be humble to another believer who’s steps God is directing. Of course these things can only happen when individually we are convinced of our own righteousness – as we learn in Romans. Yes it’s true that this comes from an attitude of service but that doesn’t negate the need for someone to lead. Once again, my pride should come from what Jesus Christ accomplished and not from my ability to lead; I’m not the one who should be glorified by my leadership and service. If Jesus Christ is the subject of the scriptures then we would do well to make him the subject of our service.
The situation in CES is really no different than any other religion that’s based on serving and following any man other than Christ. The thing I wonder about in Acts 5 isn’t the manner in which they served but the results of their service. Why don’t we see these kinds of results in Christianity today?
Organization is not inherently evil. The people in the organization are – all members. Give homage to a leader who walks by his carnal nature and the results will always be catastrophic. No man is immune to these possibilities. The only way to insure the organization stays loving, fruitful and a glory to God is if all members of the organization point, in unity, to Christ. The result of a man’s service to another believer must result in the edification of the body of Christ – with Christ being the center, focus and result. The result of this of course is a glory to God in this world with all members then of the church serving the community in which they dwell. People will know we are Christians by our love – how this is evidenced will be at his direction. For examples of what he might direct we would do well to familiarize ourselves with the gospels and the book of Acts.
Define any group anyway you want to – church, cult, religion, ministry, non-profit organization. The issue isn’t how they are (or aren’t) organized the issue is, once again, who gets the glory. If as a group Christ is glorified in love then his works will be readily seen by anyone observing the group and spiritually this will be a place for people to comfortably and lovingly fellowship with one another.
Ya know, I think that this thread is very "titillating". I think that we EX Ways have been away from the scandal for so long, that it is "refreshing" to see others go through what we went through. And, we can sit back and say: "Hey, don't buy that, it's a scam!" And we can know that we are right for, we know.... We have been there, and they have not, But maybe we, "the hurt ones" (us gscafe-ers) can save them from the evil offshoot. We are the ones who know the inner workings of the evil cultists, and therefore are the only ones to be able to save them from the "newer" Cult called CES.
I'm with the Strange One on this. My interest in this thread isn't about entertainment or gossip. Likewise, I get no pleasure in knowing that someone else is experiencing something akin to what I experienced. However, I do think it is helpful for someone going through this experience to know that they are not alone in their experience. To know that others have been through it, that others have recovered and healed.
Nor is it an "I'm right" or "I can save someone" thing for me.
Overall, I find the entire mess heartbreaking. Overall, and because John Lynn's letter, which I found on John Juede's site so many years ago, was so helpful for me, I am interested in knowing how CES will handle this nightmare. Not that I am convinced any of us will ever really know how they work it out. And for personal reasons, knowing this organization stemmed from TWI, I am interested in seeing where they go doctrinally and practically. I am interested in kowing if anything good can come from something that is rooted in TWI.
May I also add that I believe that they'll work out their current problems and abandon the past mistakes, and as a result be even better than before.
"better than" what? a crazed, self-righteous bunch of self-deluded LOONS who get sucked in by the most obviously wrong-headed pseudo-christian scams because they don't have the sense to discern a damn thing for themselves? better than that?
they may "abandon the past mistakes," oldies. but only to embrace new ones. it's their pattern. and they haven't a clue how to get out of it.
You guys really need to find a hobby, this is stupid I mean really stupid. This is a desperate move to keep talking about something that doesn't matter. First this John Lynn guy need to be heard from. So I am not saying I don't trust GS but the letters you see would take me about 2 hours a printer, copier, and a scanner and I could do it. By the website of CES there is no change in leadership as if someone was "let go". There is in no way shape or form of seeing if these documents are legit. We are taking the word of a Cereral. Sorry there is no way I am going to just jump into a pool with no water. For example not knowing if this happened or not. As far as I can tell this is just another splinter ministry from TWI and nothing new is going on. So until something happens where there is a shake up on the website or other way of proof there is no way of knowing this.
Hi Socks. When I mentioned in my post "Have they hired attorneys? That should concern most of you that support CES." My comments have nothing to do with personal prophecy. My comments are directed toward the possibility the Board will split CES over their disagreements. If they have hired attorneys, that means they are looking for a legal solution and not a biblical solution. The legal solution does not usually work out the best for the people who support the organization and means someone is rejecting the biblical answer.
You guys really need to find a hobby, this is stupid I mean really stupid. This is a desperate move to keep talking about something that doesn't matter. First this John Lynn guy need to be heard from. So I am not saying I don't trust GS but the letters you see would take me about 2 hours a printer, copier, and a scanner and I could do it. By the website of CES there is no change in leadership as if someone was "let go". There is in no way shape or form of seeing if these documents are legit. We are taking the word of a Cereral. Sorry there is no way I am going to just jump into a pool with no water. For example not knowing if this happened or not. As far as I can tell this is just another splinter ministry from TWI and nothing new is going on. So until something happens where there is a shake up on the website or other way of proof there is no way of knowing this.
You guys really need to find a hobby, this is stupid I mean really stupid. This is a desperate move to keep talking about something that doesn't matter. First this John Lynn guy need to be heard from. So I am not saying I don't trust GS but the letters you see would take me about 2 hours a printer, copier, and a scanner and I could do it. By the website of CES there is no change in leadership as if someone was "let go". There is in no way shape or form of seeing if these documents are legit. We are taking the word of a Cereral. Sorry there is no way I am going to just jump into a pool with no water. For example not knowing if this happened or not. As far as I can tell this is just another splinter ministry from TWI and nothing new is going on. So until something happens where there is a shake up on the website or other way of proof there is no way of knowing this.
I just e-mailed John Lynn asking him if the letters allegedly sent by CES members regarding Elizabeth are authentic. You can read these letters on "The Facts" thread here. These letters read like a Salem witchcraft trial and I specifically asked John if they were authentic. Would you like to know what John says about them? And I will keep writing and/or calling him until I get an adequate explanation.
And no, I already have enough hobbies. However I am, as are others here on this forum, deeply concerned for their sanity.
I for one wouldn't dream of impugning the integrity of the Captain. Just sold heavily sugared cereal with gooseberries. Now if you wanta fault him for the development of caries in the young and innocent, that's another matter.
He never raped, stole, committed adultrery, maligned brethren or worse.
Too bad I can't say that for a lot of christian "ministers".
The letters are authentic because I received a copy when she sent them out. You can trust what Jeff USA RET, Billy D and Sirvaliant have said. They have been knowledgeable of CES and the office for years from working there. I know them all to be honorable people and I would trust their word.
Thanks Radar, but I've wasted enough time on cultists that don't want to change. There is one Jesus Christ who leads honest hearts to the truth. And my heart is just not into being in the middle of them. They should both know of Greasespot also. If they don't then they are truly blinded.
And for the one, whoever it was that says there were leaders because there were followers. I'll say who was the one leading the ones that it says they followed.
Leadership is leading by doing, serving, not doing it for you.
Paul and others were observed and seen to be doing things.
Others followed their EXAMPLE.
That don't mean the followers duplicated their every move.
The virtual word of the internet makes for interesting bedfellows, don't it? :)
ck, you're absolutely right, on one hand. Absolutely wrong on another. What to do, what to do...
If someone I don't know says they were fired from a job with a company I know nothing about by people I either don't know or haven't seen in over 15 years, and it's written about by someone who says they're them but I have no way of knowing if they really are, even the person who got fired, how would I know if it really happened at all?
By the way, who did you say you were? I'm "socks".
Now that we're old friends look at it this way - if CES has an internet site run by people who you don't know even exist (see above, etc.) and "they" (whoever they really are) dont post anything about something you don't know even happened, what would it mean if there WAS a post there? And what about that letter, yeah, that letter...
If you don't take into account anything else that anyone has said because you don't know they exist and can't trust them if you allow yourself to consider they do, what do you do? Or not do? What if they do exist, but they're someone else entirely and working towards an as yet unstated purpose?
What if none of this is real? What if you're the one that's not real and actually not even ck, but (fill in the blank)....?
cman, I may be dreaming it but I think you've stated, in the big scheme of things of life, the "organizations" don't mean much and it's the people who do.
That's what it's all about, isn't it? The more I read your posts the more I'm reminded of that, the simple common sense of the forest being the trees. Take care of the trees, and there will be a grand forest. From one tree to another, thanks, man. :)
Received a PM inquiring so I thought I'd make it clear.
I'm not.
This is a long thread so perhaps I even missed who was talking to who.
cman, I may be dreaming it but I think you've stated, in the big scheme of things of life, the "organizations" don't mean much and it's the people who do.
That's what it's all about, isn't it? The more I read your posts the more I'm reminded of that, the simple common sense of the forest being the trees. Take care of the trees, and there will be a grand forest. From one tree to another, thanks, man. :)
Thanks socks, organizations carry no weight with me.
Even ones that I'm involved in.
It is the people and individuals that are important.
And with common ordinary teamwork great things happen in individual lives.
They could also think none of this should be public and none of this should be anyone's business. They could think that Elizabeth was wrong for making a public letter out of a private letter she sent to John. They could think that to answer publicly would be a disservice to Elizabeth because of some of the things they'd say about her (we've already seen a hint here of people discussing Elizabeth's lack of "innocence" in how their marriage fell apart).
As a great man named Sarek once said, "It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question."
So what is it we would even WANT the folks at CES to say?
IF I were to consider giving to CES again, my questions would be:
1. Does STFI/CES think it is appropriate for its "prophets" to meddle in the marriages of its followers?
2. Does STFI/CES value "personal prophecy" and the prophetic to such an extent that when someone who delivers a prophecy says it's NOT about Elizabeth, STFI/CES will say it's about Elizabeth ANYWAY, based on the word of a different prophet?
3. If I were to become an STFI/CES partner, what assurance do I have that the meddlers who call themselves prophets won't try to inject their garbage into MY marriage?
4. How and why did you fail to heed the multiple warnings presented to you about the dangerous road you were taking regarding the prophetic? Should it not have been a MAJOR warning bell to you when you started teaching that God could be "wrong" about a prophecy rather than recognizing that you're "wrong" in either your doctrine and practice of the same? Do you not recognize that calling your personal opinion or vain imagination a "prophecy" or a "word from the Lord" is simply a way of stifling debate about what you're saying? After all, now someone's not arguing with you or your interpretation of Scripture, but with the ALMIGHTY now! And if the prophecy is wrong, heck, it's not your fault, it's God's!
None of these questions has anything to do with the Lynn marriage, and one need not divulge personal information about the Lynns or anyone else to answer them.
That's what i would ask, if i felt they owed me an explanation.
Hi Socks. When I mentioned in my post "Have they hired attorneys? That should concern most of you that support CES." My comments have nothing to do with personal prophecy. My comments are directed toward the possibility the Board will split CES over their disagreements. If they have hired attorneys, that means they are looking for a legal solution and not a biblical solution. The legal solution does not usually work out the best for the people who support the organization and means someone is rejecting the biblical answer.
I know that the Board has not hired any attorneys and they have no intentionof splitting STF. They did consult with the corporate attorney over some language in the bylaws, (i.e. the phrase "that the president must act under the general control of the board" because Graeser is ignoring the board), can Graeser fire Dan G., the CEO, etc.
Joe
I also know that Mark G. has retained a labor attorney but I think it is because he is concerned that he will be fired, which he should be. I think he will be handed his walking papers a tthe Boards annual meeting in January.
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dizzydog
That “leaders” have offended us doesn’t mean that the scriptures do not indicate that there are no leaders and followers. I can think of at least 4-5 records in the epistles where the people of the first century church are encouraged to be followers of Paul or others. The issue isn’t whether someone leads; the issue is where are they leading. For the Christian the answer can only be to one place – Christ. Also - just because someone once led doesn’t bestow the mantle of leadership once and for all and for all time – his ministry shouldn’t define who he is, Christ should. If Jesus Christ is the head he will energize different ministries to step up to the role they are best suited for as the needs come up. I therefore as a humble servant to my Lord will know when to be humble when he is directing a brother to lead and I will know when to lead – once again in humility to my Lord. I will also know, in full confidence, when to rebuke an unfruitful work of darkness.
If a man has a ministry (which I believe all believers have something to serve) one of his real qualities as a leader will be seen when he is called on to be meek to another minister when Jesus Christ is calling on that other minister to edify the body of Christ. If my pride comes from what Jesus Christ accomplished and not from my own accomplishments then I will never feel threatened when I need to be humble to another believer who’s steps God is directing. Of course these things can only happen when individually we are convinced of our own righteousness – as we learn in Romans. Yes it’s true that this comes from an attitude of service but that doesn’t negate the need for someone to lead. Once again, my pride should come from what Jesus Christ accomplished and not from my ability to lead; I’m not the one who should be glorified by my leadership and service. If Jesus Christ is the subject of the scriptures then we would do well to make him the subject of our service.
The situation in CES is really no different than any other religion that’s based on serving and following any man other than Christ. The thing I wonder about in Acts 5 isn’t the manner in which they served but the results of their service. Why don’t we see these kinds of results in Christianity today?
Organization is not inherently evil. The people in the organization are – all members. Give homage to a leader who walks by his carnal nature and the results will always be catastrophic. No man is immune to these possibilities. The only way to insure the organization stays loving, fruitful and a glory to God is if all members of the organization point, in unity, to Christ. The result of a man’s service to another believer must result in the edification of the body of Christ – with Christ being the center, focus and result. The result of this of course is a glory to God in this world with all members then of the church serving the community in which they dwell. People will know we are Christians by our love – how this is evidenced will be at his direction. For examples of what he might direct we would do well to familiarize ourselves with the gospels and the book of Acts.
Define any group anyway you want to – church, cult, religion, ministry, non-profit organization. The issue isn’t how they are (or aren’t) organized the issue is, once again, who gets the glory. If as a group Christ is glorified in love then his works will be readily seen by anyone observing the group and spiritually this will be a place for people to comfortably and lovingly fellowship with one another.
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Abigail
QUOTE(Jonny Lingo @ Dec 21 2006, 11:12 PM)
Ya know, I think that this thread is very "titillating". I think that we EX Ways have been away from the scandal for so long, that it is "refreshing" to see others go through what we went through. And, we can sit back and say: "Hey, don't buy that, it's a scam!" And we can know that we are right for, we know.... We have been there, and they have not, But maybe we, "the hurt ones" (us gscafe-ers) can save them from the evil offshoot. We are the ones who know the inner workings of the evil cultists, and therefore are the only ones to be able to save them from the "newer" Cult called CES.
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sprawled out
"better than" what? a crazed, self-righteous bunch of self-deluded LOONS who get sucked in by the most obviously wrong-headed pseudo-christian scams because they don't have the sense to discern a damn thing for themselves? better than that?
they may "abandon the past mistakes," oldies. but only to embrace new ones. it's their pattern. and they haven't a clue how to get out of it.
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ckmkeon
You guys really need to find a hobby, this is stupid I mean really stupid. This is a desperate move to keep talking about something that doesn't matter. First this John Lynn guy need to be heard from. So I am not saying I don't trust GS but the letters you see would take me about 2 hours a printer, copier, and a scanner and I could do it. By the website of CES there is no change in leadership as if someone was "let go". There is in no way shape or form of seeing if these documents are legit. We are taking the word of a Cereral. Sorry there is no way I am going to just jump into a pool with no water. For example not knowing if this happened or not. As far as I can tell this is just another splinter ministry from TWI and nothing new is going on. So until something happens where there is a shake up on the website or other way of proof there is no way of knowing this.
CK
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isawthelight2
sprawled out, methinks you are too humble...
GreaseSpotters have begun to give them a clue!
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Whatsgoingon
Hi Socks. When I mentioned in my post "Have they hired attorneys? That should concern most of you that support CES." My comments have nothing to do with personal prophecy. My comments are directed toward the possibility the Board will split CES over their disagreements. If they have hired attorneys, that means they are looking for a legal solution and not a biblical solution. The legal solution does not usually work out the best for the people who support the organization and means someone is rejecting the biblical answer.
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Raf
And... yet... I... can't... fight... the... urge... to... read... and... post...
CK, I agree with you. Jeff doesn't really know that he was fired. How would he know that? The website doesn't say it!
wwwwwwwwipe. FLUSSSSHHHHHH!!!!!!. Okay, I'm done.
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alfakat
..... "WHAT A MAROON!!"
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Mark Sanguinetti
ckmkeon:
I just e-mailed John Lynn asking him if the letters allegedly sent by CES members regarding Elizabeth are authentic. You can read these letters on "The Facts" thread here. These letters read like a Salem witchcraft trial and I specifically asked John if they were authentic. Would you like to know what John says about them? And I will keep writing and/or calling him until I get an adequate explanation.
And no, I already have enough hobbies. However I am, as are others here on this forum, deeply concerned for their sanity.
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Ham
I for one wouldn't dream of impugning the integrity of the Captain. Just sold heavily sugared cereal with gooseberries. Now if you wanta fault him for the development of caries in the young and innocent, that's another matter.
He never raped, stole, committed adultrery, maligned brethren or worse.
Too bad I can't say that for a lot of christian "ministers".
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Radar OReilly
Clay,
Screw JAL.........why don't you email ELIZABETH and ask her if the letter attributed to her is authentic?
Go to the source Clay..........not to someone who has proven they have no integrity.
ror
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Raf
Guys,
You're arguing with points raised by CK. Want to talk about lack of integrity? I trust my cereal more than I trust this guy.
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Paradiseden
The letters are authentic because I received a copy when she sent them out. You can trust what Jeff USA RET, Billy D and Sirvaliant have said. They have been knowledgeable of CES and the office for years from working there. I know them all to be honorable people and I would trust their word.
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oldiesman
Not a bad idea.
I think its best to hear all sides before making a definitive judgment.
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Ham
I have a feeling that the one side spoken of won't LET us have a definitive judgement. Maybe he thinks the default judgement will be more merciful.
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WordWolf
It would be nice to hear from everyone.
However, they are well aware of this discussion, and obviously have elected not to participate
at this time-not even to issue a press release.
(This may of course change at any time.)
So,
the refusal to make a response is IN ITSELF a response.
They prefer to keep their position NON-SPECIFIC, nebulous.
They prefer to keep their position OPEN TO INTERPRETATION.
The prefer to have people SPECULATE as to their position.
That in itself is an answer.
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cman
Thanks Radar, but I've wasted enough time on cultists that don't want to change. There is one Jesus Christ who leads honest hearts to the truth. And my heart is just not into being in the middle of them. They should both know of Greasespot also. If they don't then they are truly blinded.
And for the one, whoever it was that says there were leaders because there were followers. I'll say who was the one leading the ones that it says they followed.
Leadership is leading by doing, serving, not doing it for you.
Paul and others were observed and seen to be doing things.
Others followed their EXAMPLE.
That don't mean the followers duplicated their every move.
And were not told what to do and how to do it.
Such a finite limited view of Christ.
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socks
The virtual word of the internet makes for interesting bedfellows, don't it? :)
ck, you're absolutely right, on one hand. Absolutely wrong on another. What to do, what to do...
If someone I don't know says they were fired from a job with a company I know nothing about by people I either don't know or haven't seen in over 15 years, and it's written about by someone who says they're them but I have no way of knowing if they really are, even the person who got fired, how would I know if it really happened at all?
By the way, who did you say you were? I'm "socks".
Now that we're old friends look at it this way - if CES has an internet site run by people who you don't know even exist (see above, etc.) and "they" (whoever they really are) dont post anything about something you don't know even happened, what would it mean if there WAS a post there? And what about that letter, yeah, that letter...
If you don't take into account anything else that anyone has said because you don't know they exist and can't trust them if you allow yourself to consider they do, what do you do? Or not do? What if they do exist, but they're someone else entirely and working towards an as yet unstated purpose?
What if none of this is real? What if you're the one that's not real and actually not even ck, but (fill in the blank)....?
See? I do have a hobby.
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socks
cman, I may be dreaming it but I think you've stated, in the big scheme of things of life, the "organizations" don't mean much and it's the people who do.
That's what it's all about, isn't it? The more I read your posts the more I'm reminded of that, the simple common sense of the forest being the trees. Take care of the trees, and there will be a grand forest. From one tree to another, thanks, man. :)
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cman
For the record I am not ckmkeon.
Somehow somewhere someone thought I might be.
Received a PM inquiring so I thought I'd make it clear.
I'm not.
This is a long thread so perhaps I even missed who was talking to who.
Thanks socks, organizations carry no weight with me.
Even ones that I'm involved in.
It is the people and individuals that are important.
And with common ordinary teamwork great things happen in individual lives.
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Raf
WW,
They could also think none of this should be public and none of this should be anyone's business. They could think that Elizabeth was wrong for making a public letter out of a private letter she sent to John. They could think that to answer publicly would be a disservice to Elizabeth because of some of the things they'd say about her (we've already seen a hint here of people discussing Elizabeth's lack of "innocence" in how their marriage fell apart).
As a great man named Sarek once said, "It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question."
So what is it we would even WANT the folks at CES to say?
IF I were to consider giving to CES again, my questions would be:
1. Does STFI/CES think it is appropriate for its "prophets" to meddle in the marriages of its followers?
2. Does STFI/CES value "personal prophecy" and the prophetic to such an extent that when someone who delivers a prophecy says it's NOT about Elizabeth, STFI/CES will say it's about Elizabeth ANYWAY, based on the word of a different prophet?
3. If I were to become an STFI/CES partner, what assurance do I have that the meddlers who call themselves prophets won't try to inject their garbage into MY marriage?
4. How and why did you fail to heed the multiple warnings presented to you about the dangerous road you were taking regarding the prophetic? Should it not have been a MAJOR warning bell to you when you started teaching that God could be "wrong" about a prophecy rather than recognizing that you're "wrong" in either your doctrine and practice of the same? Do you not recognize that calling your personal opinion or vain imagination a "prophecy" or a "word from the Lord" is simply a way of stifling debate about what you're saying? After all, now someone's not arguing with you or your interpretation of Scripture, but with the ALMIGHTY now! And if the prophecy is wrong, heck, it's not your fault, it's God's!
None of these questions has anything to do with the Lynn marriage, and one need not divulge personal information about the Lynns or anyone else to answer them.
That's what i would ask, if i felt they owed me an explanation.
But they don't.
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socks
Yeah, I know, cool. Those two posts just bumped up next close to each other. :)
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joeoday
Hi Socks. When I mentioned in my post "Have they hired attorneys? That should concern most of you that support CES." My comments have nothing to do with personal prophecy. My comments are directed toward the possibility the Board will split CES over their disagreements. If they have hired attorneys, that means they are looking for a legal solution and not a biblical solution. The legal solution does not usually work out the best for the people who support the organization and means someone is rejecting the biblical answer.
I know that the Board has not hired any attorneys and they have no intentionof splitting STF. They did consult with the corporate attorney over some language in the bylaws, (i.e. the phrase "that the president must act under the general control of the board" because Graeser is ignoring the board), can Graeser fire Dan G., the CEO, etc.
Joe
I also know that Mark G. has retained a labor attorney but I think it is because he is concerned that he will be fired, which he should be. I think he will be handed his walking papers a tthe Boards annual meeting in January.
Joe
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cman
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
yeah right.....as if.....
they can argue over that one till they are dead
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