Ya know, I think that this thread is very "titillating". I think that we EX Ways have been away from the scandal for so long, that it is "refreshing" to see others go through what we went through. And, we can sit back and say: "Hey, don't buy that, it's a scam!" And we can know that we are right for, we know.... We have been there, and they have not, But maybe we, "the hurt ones" (us gscafe-ers) can save them from the evil offshoot. We are the ones who know the inner workings of the evil cultists, and therefore are the only ones to be able to save them from the "newer" Cult called CES.
Shoot dudes, dudettes. Folks involved with CES are there because they want to be there. Just like we wanted to be with TWI when we were there. We left when we could see the boloney ("that's a bunch a boloney!"), and those in CES who see the boloney (bologna) will do the same. I don't think we need to get our panties in a bunch over JAL and his cohorts and what they are up to at the moment. Waddya say we all go out for a few beers, some shots, and sing some karioke? Sounds better than trying to get CES all figured out...
I don't think we need to get our panties in a bunch over JAL and his cohorts and what they are up to at the moment. Waddya say we all go out for a few beers, some shots, and sing some karioke? Sounds better than trying to get CES all figured out... rolleyes.gif
I'll take you up on everything except the karioke. I don't feel the need to get stressed out over CES. I figure if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...it must be a f..k..g duck.
What is going on with CES? That is what most of the people that support their organization want to know. It is a sad state of affairs when the people on Greasespot know more about whats going on in CES than the people who are in CES.
Why have they sent out letters to certain "members" and then other "members" do not get these same letters? Why would certain members of the Board do this if they were not planning to break up the organization or checking to see what kind of support there is for a possible break up?
Here is my advice.
IMMEDIATELY STOP SENDING THEM MONEY! This is where you have power at the present time. If the money stops coming in, they will not be able to run the organization they are in the process of running into the ground. Running it into the ground is what I see happening.
I find it interesting that the Board did not seem to be concerned about personal prophecy and how it was ruining people especially from K. Gra*ser, until some of the personal prophecy was directed against them.There are many people who have been hurt by this wrong teaching. If you get a negative personal prophecy from K. Gra*ser who do you go to if you know it is not true? Get on K. Gra*ser bad side, you should pack your bags and get out of CES. Want proof of this ask anyone recently fired from the office.
Have they hired attorneys? That should concern most of you that support CES.
I'm not completely sure that any discussion by the Board of CES/STFI can be expected to be done here. Even though a lot of people would like to see that -to me it doesn't really make sense.
It would be similiar to my HUGE Italian family discussing the reason that two sister-in-laws started a family feud - only they discuss it on national TV.
Sure, we have a message board and forums in place - but most of us have no dog in this fight. Sure, we want to see a loving resolution to the matter and the complete halt to anyone getting hurt by further abuses of this nature. Many of us have friends in CES/STFI, that is a basis for concern that is natural and loving. I tend to think that a lot of us JUST CARE about what is going on and are praying for the situation.
Once again - remember that no matter what you read, no matter what you hear, no matter what you think you know about the situation - there is more to the story. It takes time and a lot of digging to totally uncover a matter when so many people have been involved for so long. It takes time to "uncoil the spin" so to speak. It might take a machete to cut through the BS.
This process will take longer than a week and it will see many changes. I'm sure of it - because people are people.
In the end, what must be looked after is not the organization - but the people.
Its easy to point and laugh and say, "I told you so!" Its a different matter to roll up one's sleeves and take part of the triage and healing. I'd much rather spend my time helping the wounded than examining how they got that way.
I'll just go back to my corner now........
Actually doojable, that was right on the money. Thanks for sharing.
What is going on with CES? That is what most of the people that support their organization want to know. It is a sad state of affairs when the people on Greasespot know more about whats going on in CES than the people who are in CES.
Why have they sent out letters to certain "members" and then other "members" do not get these same letters? Why would certain members of the Board do this if they were not planning to break up the organization or checking to see what kind of support there is for a possible break up?
Here is my advice.
IMMEDIATELY STOP SENDING THEM MONEY! This is where you have power at the present time. If the money stops coming in, they will not be able to run the organization they are in the process of running into the ground. Running it into the ground is what I see happening.
I find it interesting that the Board did not seem to be concerned about personal prophecy and how it was ruining people especially from K. Gra*ser, until some of the personal prophecy was directed against them.There are many people who have been hurt by this wrong teaching. If you get a negative personal prophecy from K. Gra*ser who do you go to if you know it is not true? Get on K. Gra*ser bad side, you should pack your bags and get out of CES. Want proof of this ask anyone recently fired from the office.
Have they hired attorneys? That should concern most of you that support CES.
Hey there -- welcome to GreaseSpot.. You asked an interesting question.
I've been a financial partner with them (CES) for some years now.
I received NO news about this at all.
Makes ya wanna go Hmmmmmmmmm. :(
(Ps --I hope attorneys don't get involved -- I didn't donate to line lawyers's pockets!!)
Want proof of this ask anyone recently fired from the office.
==Or ask anyone ever fired from the office.
(And, the longer they've been out, the more clearly they can think. Yes, I have 1st-hand examples. )
==Or ask anyone ever choosing not to tow the Company line---at the Indpls office, Camp Vision, Teen Camp, Family Camp, you name it.
(Yes, I speak from experience.)
==Or ask anyone attempting to speak truth into the lives of someone who IS towing the Company line.
(OK, OK, I'll give an example: Over time, a CES leader had bought so many of the Board's warped lies that he reported on his own wife. He showed their phone bill to MG to prove that indeed that rebellious lass had...gasp!...called someone she was told not to contact! Oh me, oh my! He was told he wasn't being head of his house, her leash was tightened, his job was threatened, she was told what CES meetings she could and could not attend. This, of course, proved how much the Board loved them and 'had their best interests at heart'!)
So let's see, now......Whatsgoingon suggested 'stop sending money.' That's great advice! We are responsible for sowing into Good Ground and by now you ought to be smelling some kind of sewer leak.
But if you're not quite sure yet, do this-----first check for a pulse. Then just suspend sending money---at least until you can ask more questions. (A good intro list of questions was given earlier in this thread...I can make one out quickly too, if you'd like.)
By the way, if you choose to go the question route.....when you get your answers, ask some folks outside CES if, in fact, you actually got answers. Huh?
You see it's possible that you have been infected with CultBrain and don't know it.
If you have been infected, you'd think you had been answered when you had not been answered at all.
If you have been infected, you'd wonder if you should judge whether or not the Board had their best interests at heart because they MIGHT have and you were not there and don't have the whole picture and they know more scripture than you and didn't their Bi-Mo just teach on love and aren't some of them ordained?
CultBrain tells you to be thankful when a 'leader/friend' invites you to stop by and when you arrive 4-5 of 'them' are there and they shred your heart for an hour or so and then invite you out to lunch.
CultBrain tells you to be humble when you are 40 years old and told whom you have permission to phone.
Alas, if you have willingly or ignorantly adopted CultBrain your thinking is actually quite mixed up, so ask for several opinions on most of your thoughts for awhile. And try not to put too many of them in writing.
But!!
As you begin this Journey From The Deep, have no fear!!
El Shaddai is still your ever present help in time of trouble!
Jesus Christ will still never leave you nor forsake you!
And holy spirit will still lead you into all truth!
Hi Whatsgoingon! What'sgoingon? (you knew that was coming)
Have they hired attorneys? That should concern most of you that support CES.
If you're a member or recent member of CES, can you elaborate? Are you thinking of attorneys in relation to fallout from personal prophecy, it's effect on CES members?
I don't know anything about the personal prophecy seminars and CES teaching related to it. Mark S. has posted some illuminating background information and White Dove posted scans of the seminar agendas that look intriguing. There's been a lot of posting related to it with some information.
I'd like to get an insiders view of what's taught, particularly the CES foundation for it being a useful part of regular Christian life. Or is it? I don't know how the presentation is crafted or delivered. I'd like to know more about CES's content, what's taught, why, all that.
But without taking a seminar or buying John S's book. I'd like to get some facts and information on it from someone who knows and is proficient with it. That would be great, if you have anything like that to share, some of us would be interested.
When you said attorneys it made me wonder - I'd assume there's some liability if there's direct counsel being given by a personal prophecy practitioner to a person about a person's life, decisions, etc. It makes me wonder, is there a disclaimer given in the material that would free the practitioner (my word) of any liability for the prophecy that's given to a person? Especially if the person giving it requires that the person getting it follow the direction being given?
I'm sure if the prophecy is related to some succesful outcome credit is accepted to some degree for that success. The teaching in that instance, the use of it, etc. Is there literature or statements that use successful outcomes to promote the teaching further? "Reali life stories"?
I'd think that if the prophecy produces a negative outcome if and when the person acts on it, especially if they're coerced somehow to act, that a "discredit" would be acceptable.
Pretty much everything advertised accepts some kind of responsibility, and it's usually covered by a disclaimer - "your results may vary", "be sure to consult a physician before taking this or any other, blah blah blah"...."Users may experience extreme nausea, loose bowel syndrome, blurred vision, loss of hair and or body fluids at inappropriate times".....that kind of thing. So I wonder if CES has anything in it's formal literature that addresses possible negative outcomes.
Or are they just winging it? Or if there is a disclaimer of any kind, what does it relieve CES of?
I'm not suggesting that they are liable for anything specific or have done anything illegal. I'm just wondering what the attorneys would be for. I can guess a lot of possibilities, but I'm really just wondering now as a result of that statement. If you don't want to respond, no biggie. I'm not trying to start anything. :)
I also want to add that a lot of ministers do exactly what I've described, all the time. I'm a Christian, I've learned over time to not accept everything someone says just because they say God says so. They may mean well, have my best interests at heart, all of that - but I just don't do that. I have sort of a filter on when I listen or read, that sort of automatically translates anything that sounds like an order to me. (really, just ask my wife )
But a lot of people don't. People have serious needs and concerns, issues in life etc. We know that. Getting involved in people's most intimate affairs, even meaning well, requires care. I'm just wondering what all the personal prophecy stuff is about, from a CES standpoint. But I ain't buying any book without knowing exactly how that book is applied, in real life and real time, by the people that pay money for the teaching and live with it for awhile. I'm not real big on selling teaching of God's material to begin with. So that's where I'm coming from.
I started to read some of the CES false prophecies on Elizabeth Lynn from the thread "The Facts", that Captain Crunch started, but it reminded me too much of a Salem witch hunt so I stopped. I got the message. Those people are insane. And I would not hesitate to tell them so face to face. With love of course. Then I read the first couple of pages of Elizabeth Lynn's letter to John Lynn. Now there is a woman with a clear head and a sound mind even with lunatics dancing around her like they are at a Salem witch hunt. Thank God there are now laws against people getting burned at the stake. I agree with Dot. Karen Anne Graeser sounds like the witch of Endore. Come to think of it. I had a short conversation with her once at a CES function. I was with my friends Greg and Karen Kirkpatrick and we ran across Karen Anne Graeser as we were leaving. Some how it came up in our conversation with her that the Kirkpatrick's own a nice church building in Gilroy, CA where they have started a local church. What response did we get from Karen Anne about this? Nothing but petty jealousy. And this was plain to me and plain to the Kirkpatrick's. I almost wrote to John Lynn and John Schoenheit about this, but did not. If I was them I would not put up with any of her bad spiritual fruit. Elizabeth won't put up with it. Bravo Elizabeth. So what is wrong with John Lynn? Why did not he defend her from the wolves?
My research indicates that the PAC stood for Prophetic Advisory Committee. It was created in response to September 11 twin towers attack. Some members of the CES faith community came forward afterwards and said that they had received warnings from the Lord but didn't know what to do with them.
After reading Elizabeth's letter to JAL, I can only say that what I saw glimpses of myself, has been verified in a very detailed and from a very personal point of view. I feel sorry that Elizabeth was drawn into this experience and I commend her for her courage and insight.
There is a lesson to be learned from all of this...whenever man plays God, disaster ensues.
They are all "biblical" sounding terms but this organization is FAR from being of God. They are self indulgent, egotistical, wannabes who have trashed the lives of many people in order to bolster their own "spirituality"...but to whom? They seem to belong to some kind of self admiration society that give themselves titles and attempt to project an image of spiritual superiority, when in fact they are pitiful pretenders who have deceived even themselves.
The solution that I would suggest is that these folks should dissolve their organization and each one should find an appropriate path for their own lives...many should simply find a good church to attend...other's should check themselves into a mental health clinic and begin intensive therapy...are you listening KAG?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. These people left one cult and ended up forming another one...kept the baby but threw out the bathwater?...it's more like they kept the bathwater and then drank it.
...And honestly, there are those involved who should have known better...Schoenheit, what's YOUR problem?
That should be etched in stone above any way or way offshoot building.
amongst all their classes, noise, sounding gongs and banging cymbals-That is the one lesson that they have surely taught us by example very well ---over and over and over.
(maybe one of the Johns could write a book about that... )
On another note--does anyone know where the John Lynn thread is?
The one where he did a few drive by posts, got upset that we wouldnt genuflect to him, then stormed out telling us all to 'get a life' after a very few posts?
If someone can find it, I'd be interesting in rereading it, as it was in the general timeframe of these letters/prophecies. I dont remember much except the haughty attitude that oozed from the posts, and the denial of reality that was going on then.....any way thanks if you can find it
CultBrain tells you to be thankful when a 'leader/friend' invites you to stop by and when you arrive 4-5 of 'them' are there and they shred your heart for an hour or so and then invite you out to lunch.
CultBrain tells you to be humble when you are 40 years old and told whom you have permission to phone.
It would be CultBrain if you think these responses answered your question:
1. Question: Is it true that you are relying on personal prophecies that are hurting people?
CultBrain answer: Don't believe everything you read.
RealBrain follow-up question: Then which statements are true, and which are false?
2. Question: Is it true that you are relying on personal prophecies that are hurting people?
CultBrain answer: We have disbanded the Prophetic Council.
RealBrain follow-up question: So you used to have personal prophecies that hurt people? What are you doing to fix those who were hurt?
3. Question: Do you still rely on these personal prophecies that hurt people?
CultBrain answer: Read my book about it.
RealBrain follow-up comment: That must mean yes, since your book is still on the market. Apparently your book is not complete on the subject, or you would not have had to back-pedal and disband a Prophetic Council that hurt many!
On another note--does anyone know where the John Lynn thread is?
The one where he did a few drive by posts, got upset that we wouldnt genuflect to him, then stormed out telling us all to 'get a life' after a very few posts?
If someone can find it, I'd be interesting in rereading it, as it was in the general timeframe of these letters/prophecies. I dont remember much except the haughty attitude that oozed from the posts, and the denial of reality that was going on then.....any way thanks if you can find it
This is the last thing I'm going to say about the whole CES thing.
It seems to me, religious/spiritual people are especially susceptible to this sort of thing. Perhaps it's a genetic predisposition or upbringing (the whole nature/nurture debate). Or, perhaps it's a combination of both.
They see how people can be treated in their association with a particular previous religious (?) organization, and somehow believe the people at the top when they say they're going to change things in THEIR org. This is a leap of faith, at best.
People generally don't change. I know, there's the story in Acts (after Pentecost) where they supposedly did. But, since I don't believe "The Bible" to be "God-Breathed", I find it a little suspect.
There is an old Jewish 'word problem'. It is an lesson in critical thinking.
Two people go into a chimney.
One comes out sooty, the other clean.
The person posing the problem then asks, "How can that be?"
When the student/s can't answer, he says,"How can they both come out clean?"
George Santayana once said, "Those who do not remember history, are doomed to repeat it".
Another way to put it, in the words of Dr. Cherie Carter Scott, "The lessons repeat until they are learned".
If you want, I can have this printed up on business cards (just like the retemories of old). If there are enough orders, (starting at only 19.95) I would be glad to supply you with as many as you wish. The other, less expensive option, would be to read my signature as many times as necessary. Whichever 'way' you decide to go is fine with me.
12And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s porch. 13And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. 14And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.) 15Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. 16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
After reading Elizabeth's letter to JAL, I can only say that what I saw glimpses of myself, has been verified in a very detailed and from a very personal point of view. I feel sorry that Elizabeth was drawn into this experience and I commend her for her courage and insight.
There is a lesson to be learned from all of this...whenever man plays God, disaster ensues.
They are all "biblical" sounding terms but this organization is FAR from being of God. They are self indulgent, egotistical, wannabes who have trashed the lives of many people in order to bolster their own "spirituality"...but to whom? They seem to belong to some kind of self admiration society that give themselves titles and attempt to project an image of spiritual superiority, when in fact they are pitiful pretenders who have deceived even themselves.
Groucho.........very well stated.
After reading through Elizabeth's letter to JAL............I was amazed by her logic, her clarity, her commitment to marriage, her bold confrontation, etc. She nailed it!!
If a 16-page confrontation couldn't wake JAL/others up.........what will??????????????
:unsure: :unsure:
And..........her situation brought back floods of memories from those last couple of years that I was involved with twi. Uuuuugh.
When people practice an addiction for 30 years or more, it gets harder to overcome. You don't see many smokers, alcoholics or drug abusers delivered after years of addiction. It's not impossible to overcome, but for the most part addictions result in destroying lives, way ahead of the addicts appointed time. It is sad, but the same is true for cult addiction.
Ya know, I think that this thread is very "titillating". I think that we EX Ways have been away from the scandal for so long, that it is "refreshing" to see others go through what we went through. And, we can sit back and say: "Hey, don't buy that, it's a scam!" And we can know that we are right for, we know.... We have been there, and they have not, But maybe we, "the hurt ones" (us gscafe-ers) can save them from the evil offshoot. We are the ones who know the inner workings of the evil cultists, and therefore are the only ones to be able to save them from the "newer" Cult called CES.
I may have taken your post wrong Jonny, but I haven't seen (or taken) that attitude from the majority of the posters here. Sure, I think that most of us feel we know a cult when we see it... but I don't think that a majority of the folks posting on this thread are doing so because of the 'titilation factor' or because we think it's 'refreshing' to see others go through what we did... but I do think we can say "this isn't right"... and post out of concern for fellow human beings.
I really don't think anyone is taking any particular "joy" out of any of this...
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notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
Sushi
I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
Whatsgoingon
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
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J0nny Ling0
Ya know, I think that this thread is very "titillating". I think that we EX Ways have been away from the scandal for so long, that it is "refreshing" to see others go through what we went through. And, we can sit back and say: "Hey, don't buy that, it's a scam!" And we can know that we are right for, we know.... We have been there, and they have not, But maybe we, "the hurt ones" (us gscafe-ers) can save them from the evil offshoot. We are the ones who know the inner workings of the evil cultists, and therefore are the only ones to be able to save them from the "newer" Cult called CES.
Shoot dudes, dudettes. Folks involved with CES are there because they want to be there. Just like we wanted to be with TWI when we were there. We left when we could see the boloney ("that's a bunch a boloney!"), and those in CES who see the boloney (bologna) will do the same. I don't think we need to get our panties in a bunch over JAL and his cohorts and what they are up to at the moment. Waddya say we all go out for a few beers, some shots, and sing some karioke? Sounds better than trying to get CES all figured out...
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oenophile
I'll take you up on everything except the karioke. I don't feel the need to get stressed out over CES. I figure if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...it must be a f..k..g duck.
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LornaDoone
I just heard from the Lord. It's definitely prophecy because it will come to pass. He said I'm going to bed and that's the truth.
Night all, I sure hope the believers in CES don't get too hurt by all of this, especially the ones who have been thru it before. hugs :)
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pond
it feels like a fight, ya know folks want answers and they have none to give other than what the bible says.
a bit of a cop out really.
that is what happens when you think you beyond being a person and into the realm of a prophet with a mission, that is special and "as He is" .
such a high place in your mind to fall from.. ow
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Whatsgoingon
What is going on with CES? That is what most of the people that support their organization want to know. It is a sad state of affairs when the people on Greasespot know more about whats going on in CES than the people who are in CES.
Why have they sent out letters to certain "members" and then other "members" do not get these same letters? Why would certain members of the Board do this if they were not planning to break up the organization or checking to see what kind of support there is for a possible break up?
Here is my advice.
IMMEDIATELY STOP SENDING THEM MONEY! This is where you have power at the present time. If the money stops coming in, they will not be able to run the organization they are in the process of running into the ground. Running it into the ground is what I see happening.
I find it interesting that the Board did not seem to be concerned about personal prophecy and how it was ruining people especially from K. Gra*ser, until some of the personal prophecy was directed against them.There are many people who have been hurt by this wrong teaching. If you get a negative personal prophecy from K. Gra*ser who do you go to if you know it is not true? Get on K. Gra*ser bad side, you should pack your bags and get out of CES. Want proof of this ask anyone recently fired from the office.
Have they hired attorneys? That should concern most of you that support CES.
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Billy D
Actually doojable, that was right on the money. Thanks for sharing.
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dmiller
Hey there -- welcome to GreaseSpot.. You asked an interesting question.
I've been a financial partner with them (CES) for some years now.
I received NO news about this at all.
Makes ya wanna go Hmmmmmmmmm. :(
(Ps --I hope attorneys don't get involved -- I didn't donate to line lawyers's pockets!!)
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isawthelight2
Want proof of this ask anyone recently fired from the office.
==Or ask anyone ever fired from the office.
(And, the longer they've been out, the more clearly they can think. Yes, I have 1st-hand examples. )
==Or ask anyone ever choosing not to tow the Company line---at the Indpls office, Camp Vision, Teen Camp, Family Camp, you name it.
(Yes, I speak from experience.)
==Or ask anyone attempting to speak truth into the lives of someone who IS towing the Company line.
(OK, OK, I'll give an example: Over time, a CES leader had bought so many of the Board's warped lies that he reported on his own wife. He showed their phone bill to MG to prove that indeed that rebellious lass had...gasp!...called someone she was told not to contact! Oh me, oh my! He was told he wasn't being head of his house, her leash was tightened, his job was threatened, she was told what CES meetings she could and could not attend. This, of course, proved how much the Board loved them and 'had their best interests at heart'!)
So let's see, now......Whatsgoingon suggested 'stop sending money.' That's great advice! We are responsible for sowing into Good Ground and by now you ought to be smelling some kind of sewer leak.
But if you're not quite sure yet, do this-----first check for a pulse. Then just suspend sending money---at least until you can ask more questions. (A good intro list of questions was given earlier in this thread...I can make one out quickly too, if you'd like.)
By the way, if you choose to go the question route.....when you get your answers, ask some folks outside CES if, in fact, you actually got answers. Huh?
You see it's possible that you have been infected with CultBrain and don't know it.
If you have been infected, you'd think you had been answered when you had not been answered at all.
If you have been infected, you'd wonder if you should judge whether or not the Board had their best interests at heart because they MIGHT have and you were not there and don't have the whole picture and they know more scripture than you and didn't their Bi-Mo just teach on love and aren't some of them ordained?
CultBrain tells you to be thankful when a 'leader/friend' invites you to stop by and when you arrive 4-5 of 'them' are there and they shred your heart for an hour or so and then invite you out to lunch.
CultBrain tells you to be humble when you are 40 years old and told whom you have permission to phone.
Alas, if you have willingly or ignorantly adopted CultBrain your thinking is actually quite mixed up, so ask for several opinions on most of your thoughts for awhile. And try not to put too many of them in writing.
But!!
As you begin this Journey From The Deep, have no fear!!
El Shaddai is still your ever present help in time of trouble!
Jesus Christ will still never leave you nor forsake you!
And holy spirit will still lead you into all truth!
Perhaps it was He who led you here!!!
Remember......
You CAN live life without this strife.
You CAN be blessed without CES.
Go for it! We're all right here cheering for you!
(Now that feels different already, doesn't it?)
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socks
Hi Whatsgoingon! What'sgoingon? (you knew that was coming)
If you're a member or recent member of CES, can you elaborate? Are you thinking of attorneys in relation to fallout from personal prophecy, it's effect on CES members?
I don't know anything about the personal prophecy seminars and CES teaching related to it. Mark S. has posted some illuminating background information and White Dove posted scans of the seminar agendas that look intriguing. There's been a lot of posting related to it with some information.
I'd like to get an insiders view of what's taught, particularly the CES foundation for it being a useful part of regular Christian life. Or is it? I don't know how the presentation is crafted or delivered. I'd like to know more about CES's content, what's taught, why, all that.
But without taking a seminar or buying John S's book. I'd like to get some facts and information on it from someone who knows and is proficient with it. That would be great, if you have anything like that to share, some of us would be interested.
When you said attorneys it made me wonder - I'd assume there's some liability if there's direct counsel being given by a personal prophecy practitioner to a person about a person's life, decisions, etc. It makes me wonder, is there a disclaimer given in the material that would free the practitioner (my word) of any liability for the prophecy that's given to a person? Especially if the person giving it requires that the person getting it follow the direction being given?
I'm sure if the prophecy is related to some succesful outcome credit is accepted to some degree for that success. The teaching in that instance, the use of it, etc. Is there literature or statements that use successful outcomes to promote the teaching further? "Reali life stories"?
I'd think that if the prophecy produces a negative outcome if and when the person acts on it, especially if they're coerced somehow to act, that a "discredit" would be acceptable.
Pretty much everything advertised accepts some kind of responsibility, and it's usually covered by a disclaimer - "your results may vary", "be sure to consult a physician before taking this or any other, blah blah blah"...."Users may experience extreme nausea, loose bowel syndrome, blurred vision, loss of hair and or body fluids at inappropriate times".....that kind of thing. So I wonder if CES has anything in it's formal literature that addresses possible negative outcomes.
Or are they just winging it? Or if there is a disclaimer of any kind, what does it relieve CES of?
I'm not suggesting that they are liable for anything specific or have done anything illegal. I'm just wondering what the attorneys would be for. I can guess a lot of possibilities, but I'm really just wondering now as a result of that statement. If you don't want to respond, no biggie. I'm not trying to start anything. :)
I also want to add that a lot of ministers do exactly what I've described, all the time. I'm a Christian, I've learned over time to not accept everything someone says just because they say God says so. They may mean well, have my best interests at heart, all of that - but I just don't do that. I have sort of a filter on when I listen or read, that sort of automatically translates anything that sounds like an order to me. (really, just ask my wife
)
But a lot of people don't. People have serious needs and concerns, issues in life etc. We know that. Getting involved in people's most intimate affairs, even meaning well, requires care. I'm just wondering what all the personal prophecy stuff is about, from a CES standpoint. But I ain't buying any book without knowing exactly how that book is applied, in real life and real time, by the people that pay money for the teaching and live with it for awhile. I'm not real big on selling teaching of God's material to begin with. So that's where I'm coming from.
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allan w.
Get Craig in....he'll sort them out !!
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Mark Sanguinetti
I started to read some of the CES false prophecies on Elizabeth Lynn from the thread "The Facts", that Captain Crunch started, but it reminded me too much of a Salem witch hunt so I stopped. I got the message. Those people are insane. And I would not hesitate to tell them so face to face. With love of course. Then I read the first couple of pages of Elizabeth Lynn's letter to John Lynn. Now there is a woman with a clear head and a sound mind even with lunatics dancing around her like they are at a Salem witch hunt. Thank God there are now laws against people getting burned at the stake. I agree with Dot. Karen Anne Graeser sounds like the witch of Endore. Come to think of it. I had a short conversation with her once at a CES function. I was with my friends Greg and Karen Kirkpatrick and we ran across Karen Anne Graeser as we were leaving. Some how it came up in our conversation with her that the Kirkpatrick's own a nice church building in Gilroy, CA where they have started a local church. What response did we get from Karen Anne about this? Nothing but petty jealousy. And this was plain to me and plain to the Kirkpatrick's. I almost wrote to John Lynn and John Schoenheit about this, but did not. If I was them I would not put up with any of her bad spiritual fruit. Elizabeth won't put up with it. Bravo Elizabeth. So what is wrong with John Lynn? Why did not he defend her from the wolves?
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GrouchoMarxJr
Glad somebody caught it...
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excathedra
joe o day said - Hi Joe !
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GrouchoMarxJr
After reading Elizabeth's letter to JAL, I can only say that what I saw glimpses of myself, has been verified in a very detailed and from a very personal point of view. I feel sorry that Elizabeth was drawn into this experience and I commend her for her courage and insight.
There is a lesson to be learned from all of this...whenever man plays God, disaster ensues.
Prophetic council?...head prophetess?...dream interpretations?
They are all "biblical" sounding terms but this organization is FAR from being of God. They are self indulgent, egotistical, wannabes who have trashed the lives of many people in order to bolster their own "spirituality"...but to whom? They seem to belong to some kind of self admiration society that give themselves titles and attempt to project an image of spiritual superiority, when in fact they are pitiful pretenders who have deceived even themselves.
The solution that I would suggest is that these folks should dissolve their organization and each one should find an appropriate path for their own lives...many should simply find a good church to attend...other's should check themselves into a mental health clinic and begin intensive therapy...are you listening KAG?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. These people left one cult and ended up forming another one...kept the baby but threw out the bathwater?...it's more like they kept the bathwater and then drank it.
...And honestly, there are those involved who should have known better...Schoenheit, what's YOUR problem?
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mstar1
That should be etched in stone above any way or way offshoot building.
amongst all their classes, noise, sounding gongs and banging cymbals-That is the one lesson that they have surely taught us by example very well ---over and over and over.
(maybe one of the Johns could write a book about that...
)
On another note--does anyone know where the John Lynn thread is?
The one where he did a few drive by posts, got upset that we wouldnt genuflect to him, then stormed out telling us all to 'get a life' after a very few posts?
If someone can find it, I'd be interesting in rereading it, as it was in the general timeframe of these letters/prophecies. I dont remember much except the haughty attitude that oozed from the posts, and the denial of reality that was going on then.....any way thanks if you can find it
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shazdancer
1. Question: Is it true that you are relying on personal prophecies that are hurting people?
CultBrain answer: Don't believe everything you read.
RealBrain follow-up question: Then which statements are true, and which are false?
2. Question: Is it true that you are relying on personal prophecies that are hurting people?
CultBrain answer: We have disbanded the Prophetic Council.
RealBrain follow-up question: So you used to have personal prophecies that hurt people? What are you doing to fix those who were hurt?
3. Question: Do you still rely on these personal prophecies that hurt people?
CultBrain answer: Read my book about it.
RealBrain follow-up comment: That must mean yes, since your book is still on the market. Apparently your book is not complete on the subject, or you would not have had to back-pedal and disband a Prophetic Council that hurt many!
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markomalley
Two threads:
John Lynn Leaves CES?
Hi! It's the real me - John Lynn
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Sushi
This is the last thing I'm going to say about the whole CES thing.
It seems to me, religious/spiritual people are especially susceptible to this sort of thing. Perhaps it's a genetic predisposition or upbringing (the whole nature/nurture debate). Or, perhaps it's a combination of both.
They see how people can be treated in their association with a particular previous religious (?) organization, and somehow believe the people at the top when they say they're going to change things in THEIR org. This is a leap of faith, at best.
People generally don't change. I know, there's the story in Acts (after Pentecost) where they supposedly did. But, since I don't believe "The Bible" to be "God-Breathed", I find it a little suspect.
There is an old Jewish 'word problem'. It is an lesson in critical thinking.
Two people go into a chimney.
One comes out sooty, the other clean.
The person posing the problem then asks, "How can that be?"
When the student/s can't answer, he says,"How can they both come out clean?"
George Santayana once said, "Those who do not remember history, are doomed to repeat it".
Another way to put it, in the words of Dr. Cherie Carter Scott, "The lessons repeat until they are learned".
If you want, I can have this printed up on business cards (just like the retemories of old). If there are enough orders, (starting at only 19.95) I would be glad to supply you with as many as you wish. The other, less expensive option, would be to read my signature as many times as necessary. Whichever 'way' you decide to go is fine with me.
Merry Christmas
(edited for spacing)
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cman
This only chapter 5 of Acts folks.
Acts 1 must be attained.
There is no group think as some would suppose.
When will will a person learn to stand?
There is no leaders-only servants.
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mstar1
Thanks Mark
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sprawled out
thanks, dot.
and hey, MERRY CHRISTMAS, EVERYONE!
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skyrider
Groucho.........very well stated.
After reading through Elizabeth's letter to JAL............I was amazed by her logic, her clarity, her commitment to marriage, her bold confrontation, etc. She nailed it!!
If a 16-page confrontation couldn't wake JAL/others up.........what will??????????????
:unsure:
:unsure:
And..........her situation brought back floods of memories from those last couple of years that I was involved with twi. Uuuuugh.
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Calflor
When people practice an addiction for 30 years or more, it gets harder to overcome. You don't see many smokers, alcoholics or drug abusers delivered after years of addiction. It's not impossible to overcome, but for the most part addictions result in destroying lives, way ahead of the addicts appointed time. It is sad, but the same is true for cult addiction.
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Tom Strange
I may have taken your post wrong Jonny, but I haven't seen (or taken) that attitude from the majority of the posters here. Sure, I think that most of us feel we know a cult when we see it... but I don't think that a majority of the folks posting on this thread are doing so because of the 'titilation factor' or because we think it's 'refreshing' to see others go through what we did... but I do think we can say "this isn't right"... and post out of concern for fellow human beings.
I really don't think anyone is taking any particular "joy" out of any of this...
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