CES is in a Mess...

[TrustAndObey]

Ductape,

But isn't that how they started.. Writing books, reasearch papers and selling them?

Make NOT my Father's house a house of merchandise..

Well, I think our Lord who IS OUR LEADER, WHO IS OUR TEACHER, said it best..

The individuals in CES/STFI is what matters. THey are the body of christ. The orginasation for those who are in it need to stop thinking it is God's orginisation. All this ought to prove it to you. It is man made. Built with man's hand. Not built on the rock, Our Lord. It is built on sand. And as such it will crumble. Maybe take many years like TWI which is slowly dwindling, but it will crumble as all the things of men do. No, our rock is Christ. Our footing is in Him. People in God's orginsation do not start there own orginsation, they help those already in God's orginsation and need not set themselves up as their own entity.

Our life is in CHRIST who is in God! Can you dig it?!

The head of Man is Christ, the head of Christ is God! Was Paul not clear enough in his epistle?

Orginsations made by men are for men's purpose, no matter how godly the person is or what their motive is. God is not into their orginsations. He is into His people. And His people who are called by His name, He created for HIS GLORY, not the glory of some man made orginsation, or so that some man can say he is their leader, pastor, teacher..

DO NOT CALL ANYONE ON EARTH YOUR TEACHER!! DO NOT CALL ANYONE ON EARTH YOUR FATHER!! Was not our Lord clear enough?!!

We are a body of believers. EVery one of us. What hurts those in the CES orginsarions hurts all of us! What hurts those in TWI or any other denominational churches, HURTS US! Get out of the schismic thinking and get into the body CHRIST IS BUILDING! Here;s a hint. IT"S NOT BUILT WITH HUMAN HANDS! It's built by Christ who adds to the church those who desire to follow HIM. Our job is to reach and teach and share and help and ultimately GUIDE THEM to follow CHRIST NOT US! NOT MEN!

If your pastor, if your teacher, if your head, if your leader is not pointing you to follow CHRIST, if he is not pointing you to NOT follow HIM, he is not someone to trust. MAN IS NOT TO BE TRUSTED WE ARE ALL FALLIBLE! So Why FOLLOW FALLIBLE PEOPLE?

By the way, does anyone here want some orange juice?

[Tom Strange]

Mark's letter to the CES leaders in 2000 regarding the error of "personal prophesy" originally on page 10, bears reposting:

Pawtucket asked me about the origins of CES and personal prophecy. Here is a letter that I wrote to the 3 CES leaders in Novemeber of 2000. Jeff, if you are out there you would especially benefit by reading this.

Dear John Schoenheit, John Lynn and Mark Graeser:

In an E-mail dated October 25, John Schoenheit asked me the following: “I am unclear about exactly what doctrines you think we teach in error. Please let me know.” In response to this I have written the following to all three of the CES brethren. This was originally E-Mailed to John Schoenheit on November 1, 2000.

The root cause of all doctrinal error by CES on the subject of prophecy, as I see it, is the unbiblical reasoning stemming from the phrase “eat the fish and throw away the bones” and all reasoning related to this. The context of this statement is that which was learned from and grafted into CES doctrine by Christian International out of Florida. In fact, these are the very words of their president Bill Hamon, and this phrase has been used by CES people. First of all, you and I both know that this is an unbiblical phrase. Instead I want you to be aware of the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 7:15-23.

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

New International Version

If these words are good enough for Jesus Christ to have taught his disciples when he was training and teaching them in preparation for the age of grace and receiving of the holy spirit, then why wouldn’t they be good enough for you and I? I want to especially bring your attention to the phrase, “by their fruit you will recognize them.” The bible says in Galations 5:22-23 that there are nine fruits of the spirit.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

King James Version

Since Bill Hamon, by his own words, claims to be a prophet and a trainer of aspiring prophets let’s look at the fruit of some prophets in the bible for comparison. Moses happens to be my favorite prophet in the bible, other than Jesus Christ of course, and the prophet that most people are familiar with the life of.

Num 12:3

3Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.

King James Version

Num 12:3

Now Moses was a very humble man, more humble than anyone else on the face of the earth.

New International Version

Moses was not a great speaker. In fact, he had his own brother, Aaron speak for him often. The one and only quality that I know of, that separated Moses from every other man on the face of the earth was his meekness and humility. For a prophet the fruit of meekness and the heart felt attitude of humility is especially important. The reason is obvious. He has to be especially meek with God to be able to receive his Word. If he is not he could fall into all kinds of doctrinal error, unbelief and even idolatry and worship of false gods.

Jesus Christ was also known for his meekness and was especially compassionate with people.

Matt 11:29

29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I (Christ) am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

The principle of meekness for receiving God’s Word is very clear for all believers regardless of their function in the body of Christ.

James 1:21

21Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

King James Version

James 3:13-18

13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.

New International Version

The above is the kind of knowledge that we should seek, and not any knowledge which is even border line puffed up or full of conceit. Didn’t we get enough of this kind of knowledge in our years in the Way Ministry where we were always bragging that our knowledge of the bible was better than everyone else and hence our ministry was better also? Didn’t this kind of pride lead to its downfall?

Prov 11:2 continues,

2When pride comes, then comes disgrace,

but with humility comes wisdom.

New International Version

Ps 25:9

9The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.

King James Version

1 Peter 5:5-6

5Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

6Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

King James Version

Clearly, if we want to receive anything from God, especially His Word, we must be meek and humble for “God resisteth the proud.” This is especially true for someone who claims to be a prophet. Now I want you to look at some of the words of Bill Hamon, the man who claims to be a prophet. By your own words, this is the man from whom you are getting some of your material on prophecy as he is the president of Christian International. I ask you, are his words below the words of a man of meekness and humility or the words of someone with puffed up reasoning? Are these the words of a prophet of God or the words of a false prophet? Below are just a few samples.

Hamon explains on pages 59 and 60 of his book, “Prophets and the Prophetic Movement.”

The Prophetic movement is part of the Holy Spirit’s continuing work of bringing the Church to full restoration. The restoration of Christ’s ascension gift of a prophet is absolutely essential for God’s purpose in the Church to be accomplished.

The company of prophets will help restore the apostles back into their rightful place in the Church. The full restoration of apostles and prophets back into the Church will then bring divine order, unity, purity and maturity to the corporate Body of Christ. The saints will be equipped and activated in the supernatural power of God to be a witness and demonstration to all nations of the powerful kingdom of God. That will in turn bring about the end of this world system of humanity and Satan’s rule.

The fulfillment of all these will release Christ, who has been seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven, to return literally and set up His everlasting Kingdom over all the earth. As the prophet Daniel foretold, the stone (the Church) that was hewn out of the mountain (Christ) will continue to grow in strength and momentum like the snowball rolling down the mountain, until it hits the feet of the giant world empires, causing them to crumble and come into submission to Christ.

The above Hamon doctrine does not magnify, nor hold to, the head of the body, which is Christ and is even worse than the old Way teaching that we take the place of the absent Christ by the renewing of our minds. It implies that the Lord Jesus Christ won’t return for or gather his Church without the works and dominion of the Church, and that somehow the Church must release Christ from heaven. How arrogant and utterly false.

In his book Prophets and the Prophetic Movement, page 57 Hamon says,

In the wilderness journey the people were covered and protected by a cloud by day and warmed, enlightened and directed by a fire by night. But for the Prophetic Movement in Canaan, the Apostle is the covering and protecting cloud and the Prophet is the enlightening and directing fire. That is one reason why apostles and prophets must be restored before the Church can fulfill its predestinated end-time purpose on earth.

Also written in his book Prophets and the Prophetic Movement, page 7 it says on Oct. 1, 1953, Bill Hamon received these words of personal prophecy concerning his ministry:

“Yea, is not this the day that thou shalt go forth in His might and His Power? Have I not said in My Word Concerning My own children, “Ye are gods,” and yea in these last days ye shall go forth as gods? Thou shalt go forth as gods with power in thine hands, and minister life and faith unto those that are desolate. Yea, I say unto thee, thou shalt be a leader of leaders. Yea, thou shalt see multitudes running unto thee, for as a light upon a tall hill shalt thou be. Yea, fear shall be in the hearts of those round about thee, yet thou shalt stand as one full of courage, saith the Lord.”

No mention is made by Hamon that God was speaking derogatorily to the judges of Israel when he said “ye are gods.” Furthermore, He did not subsequently bless them with power in their hands.” In context Psalms 82:5-7 reads,

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

King James Version

The only other usage of “ye are gods” in the old testament is Isaiah 41:23. In context, Isaiah 41:21-24 reads,

21Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. 22Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.

23Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

24Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.

King James Version

Regarding these scriptures, from the Wycliffe bible commentary it reads,

Turning now to idol-worshiping Gentiles, Jehovah challenges them to prove the reality and power of their idols by the test of prophecy and fulfillment (v. 22). His people charge these false gods with being utterly unable to fore-announce their will and purpose, through their prophets, and then carry it out.

Whoever spoke this prophecy of Bill Hamon’s early ministry above, spoke it like an in the flesh false prophet of biblical proportions. This is not something to be proud of to say the least. Neither would you expect the recipient of such a prophecy to “go forth” with anything but arrogance and false pride.

The worst part of Hamon’s teachings, however, may be his excuses for false prophecies. I understand he has over 600 pages consisting of over 150,000 words of personal prophecy concerning himself that he has collected over the years. With so much prophecy, I can understand why he needs to make excuses for inaccurate errant ones. If his original prophecy above was contrary to the Word of God, why should subsequent prophecies be any better? With so much error in doctrine and prophecies, why should you learn from him, his subordinates or associates? Couldn’t you learn from better sources or work the Word of God for yourself?

From Hamon’s book Prophets and Personal Prophecy page 158 it reads,

At the time, we must not be quick to call someone a false prophet simply because something he said was inaccurate or did not seem to apply to us. The man may be honest, righteous, and upright, yet immature in his prophesying. He may have misinterpreted what the Lord was saying.

In this case we should say that he gave an inaccurate word or a false prophecy, but we cannot properly call him a false prophet unless we can prove that the man himself is false. Missing it a few times in prophecy does not make a false prophet. No mortal prophet is infallible; all are liable to make mistakes.

Where is this in the bible? How does this compare to Deuteronomy 18:18-22?

18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

21You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" 22If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

New International Version

You asked me what doctrines do I think CES has been teaching in error. Like Bill Hamon, have you been teaching that prophecy isn't always 100 percent accurate? What about in the bible when a prophet of God says “thus says the Lord”, “thus says the Holy Spirit”, or “this is what the Lord says.” Are they speaking falsely or truly?

In Christ,

Mark Sanguinetti

Socks' thoughts for those in need of an alternative to CES (or really anyone wishing to serve) originally on page 9 bears repeating:

GS being the point of contact it is for so many people who visit and read, I suspect some of those people will be wondering in the next few months "what do I do now?" If a person's invested their life, time, development of their own beliefs and faith in CES they may feel as if their options are limited. They're never limited, but sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees, as they say.

My recommendation would be - if you want Christian fellowship and activities, consider finding a local church to attend. One where there is a Pastor with a reputation for having a sound marriage or relationship, who cares for the people that attend that church and who is involved in active outreach to the community. Perhaps a Pastor who participates in Mission work, travels to other locations to help Christian outreach there, building programs. In short, a church where the people speak highly of the love and care of their pastor. One who has some experience and training behind him, and who is service minded to his congregation.

Doctrine is always an issue. Doctrine will always differ, not only from church to chuch but within a church's own people. It's a simple reality that no two people ever understand or see things exactly the same. That's a good thing - diversity of understanding about the same issues and matters can help, once we get used to allowing it to exist, not as an enemy, but as a way to learn and grow, for everyone involved.

Big ticket dcctrinal items - Trinity, Heaven/Hell, the Return of Christ - a lot of doctrinal points will be different in churches that haven't come down the same path as ex-Way churches. It doesn't mean that everyone's right - everyone can't be of course. I'm suggesting to take the emphasis off of being right and putting it on fellowship and service. Emphasize meekness and humility to God and Jesus Christ, and allow for others to, in a word, LOVE you for who you are, not what you believe and to do that in turn.

Mature experienced pastoring in a church is critical. No one pastor is perfect, no one will do everything right. Meekness and humility allow for growth. A successful pastor will inevitably have learned that, and not just to "God", but to God's people.

The entire concept of "leadership" is redefined when meekness and humilty and a loving concern to help other are prominent. People find that they can live their own lives freely, quite well in fact, with that kind of pastoral presence.

I hope this helps.

I apologize for quoting myself, but I feel strongly about this:

They (the right churches) provide a place where folks can serve their fellow man in whatever way they see fit... it takes a lot for us to get rid of the gotta-be-right-us attitude that was drummed into our heads as the only way to walk... funny, I don't remember any accounts of Jesus walking that way...

...I also think part of our (all of us) reluctance to seek out or attend a church is because of the negatives about churches pounded into us in TWI and offshoots...

We had it pounded into us to seek our answers and guidance from them... when all along the answer has always been in our own heart, right where God put it...

[outofdafog]

By the way, does anyone here want some orange juice?

Only if it comes with vodka..............

[Ham]

and we are studying personal prophecy more closely

sounds like the BOD on the debt issue: "We have QUALIFIED people working on it.."

[HCW]

I looked at the link to the CES Board....

Can anybody tell me which of the original 12 apostles was the CEO, CFO, Director of Outreach, Director of... etc., etc.?

I'd really like to know.

Thanks in advance.

[sprawled out]

i must admit i don't understand why anyone thinks JAL or any of those folks should address this forum. because they feel some responsibility to "the body of christ?" some residual ex-twi camaraderie? i doubt it.

aren't these the same people who shut down THEIR OWN forum when it got too messy for them?

and even if they did "respond," does anyone really think it'd be satisfying? open, honest, full disclosure? or just more religious shuckin' and jivin'? the best you could ever hope to get from them is a veneer of semi-polite bs, barely covering the disdain they have for those of us who don't buy into their rap. i'm sorry, but that's what it is. they'll swear up and down that it's not so, but their self-satisfied smirks reveal their true hearts.

i know and love some of these people, so it pains me to say this. but i know it's the case, nevertheless. it's twi all over again, only worse. because they know better, but they do it anyway.

[NewParadigm]

Welcome to the 'spot, Paradigm.

Thanks.

[Raf]

Ah yes, the old CES forum. I remember it like it was only yesterday. They shut it down, and i went over to Waydale to tell everyone, and, and...

Shoot, the computer just hiccupped or something.

Wonder what ever became of that? :)

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Ah yes, the old CES forum. I remember it like it was only yesterday. They shut it down, and i went over to Waydale to tell everyone, and, and...

Shoot, the computer just hiccupped or something.

Wonder what ever became of that? :)

I think it vanished on the threshold of a dream...

[Raf]

On THE what?

[Tom Strange]

Shoot, the computer just hiccupped or something.

If you'd quit letting your computer drink so early in the day...

[cman]

Separate truth from error - bull crap J. L. !!!!!!

Where did you get that idea anyway huh?

You are not as smart as you think you are.

Read your book.....HA...

What? Did you forget what is in your own book?

Sick of books from SELF-proclaimed prophets or apostles or whatever.

You just can't handle yourself without your bull peddling,

and mind bending, numbing, hypnotic crap.

Talk like a friggin person for Christ's sake.

And shove that book.

The truth is so friggin SIMPLE!!!!!!!!even I can get it.

Error is your own error, not mine buddy.

Edited December 21, 2006 by cman

[cman]

Post 412 (the previous post) is a response to whoever wrote that letter back to Oldiesman.

Be it J. L. or J. S.

It's a long friggin thread...lol....

It don't matter to me who wrote it really. What was said is no answer at all.

Straight crap from a crap dealer.

Who has been dealing it so long that there seems to be no other choice in the mind.

But there is other choices.

They Just DON"T WANT TO DO IT!

Edited December 21, 2006 by cman

[GrouchoMarxJr]

On THE what?

ummm...too much acid in my late teens...sometimes I just type things.

[rhino]

The book plug is classic. It must just be a reflex by now. How 'bout just posting it here, or presenting it in pdf for free?

I give all my revelation and knowledge away for free, even though in book form I'm sure most here would give me $19.95.

I never did hear how CES can remove John from power. If he can fire everyone, does that make him the supreme being? Maybe they had to vote him out before he fired them? Are they a tax exempt organization?

Right or wrong, why would these guys come here into the lion's den? LOL

[cman]

Ok my 2 recent posts refer to J. S.

post 379 page 19

Went back again to be sure

Edited December 21, 2006 by cman

[oldiesman]

I think John S. is learning from past mistakes and making a sincere effort to change things for the better.

Have one on me.

[GarthP2000]

That Drambuie wouldn't happen to have any influence on your statement about John S. sincerely trying to learn from past mistakes, ..... would it?

[cman]

No thanks, I don't drink alcohol.

But just like abuse of alcohol has made a path in the brain.

So has the abuse of one's ownself and others.

A path that is not easy to get off of.

It takes doing.

Few have the courage and willingness to DO.

Sure it's easy to fire those endorphins with alcohol.

Just lift the bottle and drink.

Yet the damage it does is not worth the price.

Because it's not right-it's been done too much for too long.

SAME THING with this abuse of self and everyone who comes in contact with this,

a wine of a spiritual drunk

NOT WILLING TO DO WHAT IT TAKES

To naturally get natural results.

And spiritually to get REAL Spiritual results.

Sloths and Gluttons or plain Lazy.

Edited December 21, 2006 by cman

[Tom Strange]

I think John S. is learning from past mistakes and making a sincere effort to change things for the better.

I would hope so... but I still think that these folks have used up their turns for allowing these things to take place...

[oldiesman]

Enjoy this holiday treat,

(stolen from original egg nog recipies)

Victor's Egg Nog. :)

Makes Eight six ounce servings: Enjoy!

1 quart whole milk

8 ounces Drambuie

1/2 teaspoon ground allspice

4 eggs

1 teaspoon vanilla extract

1/2 teaspoon ground cinnamon

Freshly grated nutmeg for garnish

Break eggs into large bowl and whisk until frothy. Add Drambuie, vanilla, cinnamon, and allspice; whisk to combine. Slowly add milk whisking until thoroughly mixed. Pour into glasses; sprinkle on the nutmeg.

[Raf]

and add a little more drambuie.

[cman]

Sorry Oldies, don't look like any one wants your drunkenness.

And it's not the drink it's your bottle of poison.

Don't see anyone taking that bait you keep throwing out.

Try TWI off of highway 29 just south of New Knoxville.

They probably still have some just for you.

In fact you never even left have you Oldies?

Or you are just in love with hatred.

[GarthP2000]

Cman,

Actually, I posed that question to Oldies, ..... who evidently looks like he's going to have a *very* Drambruie Christmas.

[cman]

I have no problems with you Garth.

But I already know Oldies method of operation.

Seen it for years now and wonder how he can honestly look in the mirror.

Oldies mirror is about

oldies life.

The mirror is about the eye.

This one is full of darkness.

And he likes it that way.

So I'm pointing it out for our new arrivals.

Edited December 21, 2006 by cman