The more I see this crap the more I want to puke. You want to know the downfall.
"Let's learn some new thing, we just have to learn some new thing". Let's "study" the Word and have a new doctrine, keep them coming.
1. When the hell are believers going to learn that Christ is the Head of the Church.
2. They can't learn "some new thing" they have not mastered the basics of being a Christian "and the greatest of these is charity" out of a pure heart.
3. Prophecy, ha, where in the new testament does someone see another believer "in a dream" with their f'n head spinning, crap coming out of their mouth & vicious dogs. BARF, BARF, BARF.
What happened to the Love of God, it is obviously gone from alot of people, trying to be something they will never be, more important than the people they supposedly serve. Love is supposed to cover a multitude of sins.
I find this whole situation so distasteful it sickens me. I left TWI because of the treatment of other people. Those who thought they had a real in with God. I got so spiritually angry, I blasted them good & left them standing with their jaws dropping. I sure hope JAL reads this stuff. Ego's run wild. These guys must have some real inferiority complexes to tear down believers in the name of God. I think an apostle did that before JESUS CHRIST witnessed to him on the road to Demascus. Remember him. The only difference is that he literally killed them. Here you have people tearing other believers down & who knows how many may have committed suicide because of TWI & dangerous cults like this.
Believers just need to meet in their homes, love each other and continually pray together & keep it together. I believe the Word speaks for itself on how a family are to operate. A house divided cannot stand. Everyone does not have the same walk and function. Even the feeble are MORE necessary and members in particular. From whence cometh wars among you. Maybe they should reread the basics and stop trying to be so f'n smart.
I certainly wish each and every one of you a wonderful holiday, filled with love and compassion. I am not Catholic but we could all certainly learn form Mother Teresa. Don't know about you but I'm a saint. God said so. I can do all things.
God bless you all and Eliz............have a big drink on me.
It has touched me deeply. Keep in mind that Dave n Sue Carlson were such dear friends. We loved them. I watched them go through a lot of this and said nothing. Shame on me!!!
I have read your post twice and sent it to a few folks.....I will print it off and ponder it some more.
After being on the Home Office staff for 6 1/2 years and now being off for the last two months, I am seeing a lot of things in a whole new light.
I am praying there is a change coming that will take the ministry I love to a much higher ground.
Time will tell......praying to hear more and see more.
God forgive me for not seeing so much of this sooner...and I am no kid....actually, I have a kid about to turn 20!
This is my time to grow up and make sure Christ is really my head....I know I have looked to men and not Christ too many times in my life.
Thanks again for your heart and insight. Sounds like I might know you????
Jeff
p.s. I am reading and pondering all that is said here......may this never happen again.....
On Monday, I emailed John Lynn and John Schoenheit ... John Lynn emailed me back asking for a link to this thread which I sent to him. Hope he responds to all this and gives his side of the story.
John Schoenheit emailed me yesterday and below is his response. I'm sure he won't mind me posting his response, as it does contain some useful information with no personal info. about anyone:
Dear Phil,
I am glad you contacted us. You cannot believe everything you read. However, the PAC has been disbanded, and we are studying personal prophecy more closely. You know, if you read some websites about speaking in tongues it sounds terribly ungodly (and a Federal Judge ruled Evangelicals not a legitimate branch of Christianity in September), but that does not make it so. I have written a book on prophecy, I would suggest you read it, it will help you separate truth from error a bunch on this topic, and if you have questions, just call or write. Again, I appreciate your taking the time to write me.
Merry Christmas!
John Schoenheit
I assume the PAC means the "Prophetic Council". So that is gone.
Seems like personal prophesy is still around but they are examining it more closely, which I think is a good thing under the circumstances.
Well, after reading through this thread for several days now, I thought I would take some time to respond. My name is Matthew, and I worked for CES for nearly 6 years. I was in charge of the publications, audio visual, and IT departments for the ministry. I have seen many people and things come and go over the years, and thought perhaps my two cents would be appreciated, if not necessary at this point.
[Hello, Matthew. The input of those with information here is appreciated.]
I would like to start by reminding everyone of Proverbs 18:13 which says, "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him."
[i like that verse. This messageboard exists largely so that people can "hear matters"-that they
have information they would not otherwise have-and thus DIALOGUE (2-way information)
they would not otherwise have.]
Personally I am appalled at how many of you have judged these matters without knowing even a fraction of the truth.
[in anything in life, you will only know a fraction of the details. I only know a tiny but of what
Charles Manson did, and I'm confident he's nuts and a danger to society. If you wait until you
know EVERYTHING before you take action, your house will burn to the ground while you await
reports. I'd say everybody here knows a LOT more than they did a few days ago, and many knew
a lot more than you THINK they did. This is the dawn of the information age. It is harder and harder
to keep information (secrets) from leaking out, especially if you're trying to cover it up.]
One of the reasons I have never posted on this board before is because it saddens me so much to see how much pain exists within many of the members here. But sadder then that is the bitterness with which many of you approach life--so full of critical judgment, yet so lacking in grace.
[see, now you're judging and only know a fraction of the details.
Does pain exist within many of the members here? Some, but less than you'd make out.
Many are still healing from damage done by twi, twi leaders, twi members,
and twi offshoots.
Many MORE are not so much healing as they are healed, and have moved on.
In almost all cases, their lives have advanced since them-some with professional help,
some without, all living one day at a time. To hear some people's caricature of the GSC,
almost all the members spend all their free time hating on people, especially reliving
all the bad experiences in twi. No, we just POST here, we don't LIVE here. You have
no idea what we do off of here, unless we tell you. Do you know anything about me working
with someone on a tv show? Of course not. It has nothing to to with twi or the GSC, so I
haven't posted anything about it. (No, you can't have any details.) That's one of many, many
examples of the things you DON'T know about us. If you even explored more of this board,
you'd see where we trade jokes and have fun as well, without even leaving the GSC.
As for many of us being judgemental, well, duh.
A lot of this seems to be what would be expected- people left one group exercising undue
influence in lives, and formed ANOTHER group exercising undue influence in lives.
That it's caught before we have rapes and druggings and other felonies may be more that
this is coming to light SOONER rather than LATER.
(Imagine an expose on twi including inside information from the late 60s and early 70s.
It would have saved a LOT of people a LOT of heartache.)
So, we view religious structures-and religious authority- with great suspicion.
There's a BIG difference between that and being "full of critical judgement."
If you CLAIM to speak for God, you should be expected to be worthy of such a title.
What's next, condemning the bearer of bad news for "speaking negatives?"]
I do not discount all of the people on here who are genuinely seeking truth and attempting to honestly sort through the current situation with CES. Yet, too many of you care only for another reason to shun "religion" and shun organization. I think it is a pitiful way to live, and for my own conscience sake I had to be honest about my feelings towards this board and some of its members before posting anything in regards to the CES situation. I have no doubt I will be "flamed" in this thread because of my opinion, but don't waste your time as I won't respond to it. If you take offense at my opinion PM me and I would be happy to talk to you.
[A) I haven't posted my opinion on this thread yet because I had nothing new to add to the discussion.
B) We don't need ANOTHER reason to shun "religion" and "organization"-we've had enough for a few
lifetimes EACH. That we have reasons to mistrust THIS one is relevant to this discussion-
so we're discussing it. That's what we do in discussions here. This board is typical of discussion
boards in that respect-we discuss that which is relevant to our topics, and sometimes people
disapprove of the topic, or the discussion itself. Just another day on another messageboard.
Of course, if YOU are the one disapproving of THIS messageboard, then THIS messageboard takes on
special meaning to you.
C) You've passed judgement on how we live based on skimming a handful of posts on one thread on one
messageboard.
Some people would be appalled that you have judged our lives without knowing even a fraction of the truth.
They might even accuse someone who did such of being full of critical judgement.
D) Nice how you've already labelled any disagreement with you as being "flaming." BTW, I am disagreeing
with you. I am not "flaming." Rarely does this board actually get into "flaming." "Flaming" is when the
posts engage in insult-tossing and ignore content. There's plenty of boards where you can find "flaming."
Some are unmoderated, some are moderated and permit some flaming if the flames are against people
who disagree with the admins. Here, flames are put out without regard for taking sides. And free speech
is permitted more than most boards in the interest of having the truth come out. It's a hard stance to take,
but it's the policy here, like it or not. BTW, it's THAT policy that made it safe for you to post here without
worry your post would be deleted or edited into oblivion.
E) If I disagree with your publicly-posted opinions, I will reply with MY publicly-posted opinions, and my own
reasonings for disagreeing with them, if I have any. Then others (you, me, anyone reading) can compare
the posts and see if mine had merit, and if yours had merit, and so on. If you don't want me disagreeing
with you publicly about your opinion, don't post your opinion publicly. I leave people's UNPOSTED opinions
alone-they are free to THINK as they darn well please. Even the ones I disagree with loudly. I've even
requested others do the same, in the interest of civil discourse. So far, they've agreed.
Whether or not you'd be happy to talk with me is a separate issue, and I see no reason to pursue it,
certainly not from one post.]
I resigned from the office in early November for one very simple reason. I no longer trust Mark and Karen Anne Graeser. Mark is a very different man these days, many will attest to that. As more facts have come to light, I have seen that there are a handful of others who are not to be trusted with leadership positions. However, this ministry is a God-fearing, Christ-loving ministry and for six years I have seen nothing to contradict that fact. I only see now a few people who have found that they can no longer run from their sins and they are being held to account for them.
[What is the difference between "the people who run this organization" and "this organization"?
If the people at the top are corrupt, it has become a corrupt organization.
Who needs an organization anyway? It's a handful of legal documents, some licenses,
some trademarked names, and some pretty Photoshopped images.
Either an organization is useful or it is not,
either it is corrupt or it is not.
Taking an abstract like "the organization" and saying
"it's a great organization, but the leaders stink" is ridiculous.
We've heard this with twi LOTS of times, and STILL hear it.
Either it's being run right, or it's not. ]
Yes the prophetic has been abused, yes people have been hurt, and yes it probably went on to long. Everyone always wants to ask why. The answer is simple. Life is messy. You criticize us now when we take too long to do what you would think is right, and you would certainly criticize us if we removed everyone from the ministry who committed even the slightest infraction. We are, in many of your eyes, in a lose-lose situation. It is for that reason that I write not for many of you on this board, but to the partners and contributors of CES who are already coming here trying to find answers.
[Well, you're writing to "everyone who reads this." You HOPE the ones who are paying CES/STFI salaries
read this and agree with you.
And yes, NOW CES/STFI is in a "lose/lose" situation. It didn't get there overnight. It got there slowly
through management policies that guided them there. This didn't just happen a few months ago,
this unfolded thru events and history. Life IS messy. Why did policies dictate this direction?
Why were bad decisions made?
And why does CES/STFI discourage open communication like we have on the GSC messageboard as to
how policies and decisions affect people?
Also, please spare us from black/white thinking criticisms. Most of us don't say ALL leaders are
corrupt, or ALL organizations (even religious ones) are corrupt. We wouldn't say
"fire everyone at the first mistake" either-despite your labelling us so. We would expect response
to be commensurate with the level of infraction. You might try dismounting from that High Horse
and looking at us with a level gaze. You may find we are equals-intelligent, literate Christians who
think for themselves, and are worthy of respect.
(And if you don't, you may STILL find us your precious brethren in Christ, to be valued and
treasured, and thus worthy of respect for HIS sake if not our own.)]
The ministry has always been like a family to me. And like any family there are problems, and you don't run off members you disagree with, even when they cause hurt and pain. You extend love, grace, and forgiveness just as Jesus Christ would do.
[but harmful leaders should be permitted to retain positions of leadership where they can
CONTINUE to make harmful decisions? Is that part of your position?]
This was granted many times to the Graesers, yet now it has become obvious that they are unwilling to change and repent for the evil they have and are currently causing.
[so, it looks like you ARE saying just that. Many of us got enough of that from twi, and
learned our lessons already, and are less than eager to repeat them with a new group and
a new name. "The lessons repeat until they are learned," as one signature around here quotes.]
The board members (with the exception of Tom Resner) are most certainly holding them accountable and I have seen nothing to suggest that they are in agreement with Karen's view of the prophetic, let alone the brazen and manipulative manner with which she carries out her so-called dreams from God. For those of you concerned about CES' view of the prophetic I can assure you that a handful of people hardly represent the ministries views. It pains me to know that she has been allowed to be so hurtful with so many people. But one person's sin is not going to drive me away from a ministry, especially not when so many people are holding her feet to the fire.
[i'm curious how great this organization is when this was perfectly acceptable until the last few days,
when the information explosion hit-here and elsewhere. Nobody was held sufficiently-accountable
UNTIL NOW if it got all the way to the top and has been going on for years, and there's been no official
clampdown on the activity. If this was a ministry that forbade smoking, for example, nobody would be
allowed to keep smoking in meetings, or even in front of other members (since members can then find
out), and they'd face sanctions if they did this (private "cease and desist" sessions, and continuing would
mean stronger measures like not advancing in the group, and possible firing if it kept happening.)
So, seems like the organization has found this PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE
(since they did NOT find it ACTIONABLE)
until the hue-and-cry was sounded.
I still haven't heard any official statement saying that the disastrous "Momentus" program was a bad idea,
and that anyone's sorry it was ever undertaken, and most of us can agree it was a bad idea.
(I'm not interested in reopening that discussion, but you're welcome to make a new thread to reopen that
discussion if you see fit. My point is that it was harmful to the brethren, and was then SWEPT UNDER THE
RUG, and never addressed in public like it's some embarassing family secret.
Looks like someone's interested in DOING THAT AGAIN.)
So, one maniac can't stay in power without the consent of the OTHER people in power.
You're asking us to trust the people that tolerated things for years-
only changing that when the public became aware of them-
and THEN expressing outrage and deciding to act.
I expect MORE from leaders. I expect them to ANTICIPATE possible problems,
and RECOGNIZE EXISTING PROBLEMS without needing to hear about them on the World-Wide Web.
Some of us seem to be saying that. ]
Nearly all of the concerns I have seen on here are completely unmerited with no real evidence to back them up. Should you be concerned about the way Elizabeth was treated? Absolutely, yet neither was she innocent in the role she played. Should you be concerned with the way some people are choosing to view and use prophecy? Absolutely, but none of you has the right to make blanket statements and far-fetched assumptions about how the ministry was run by this so-called prophetic guidance.
[People were being hurt by leadership in God's name, and this was permitted to continue.
That's a statement of fact.
This is NOT difficult to see at the most basic level.
One need not make blanket statements or assumptions to see that.
And if this group WAS "RUN" this way, then most of us would call that "incompetent."]
It never has been, and because of the men and women who are taking a stand against Mark, I believe it never will be. In fact, perhaps to the dismay of some here, I believe that CES will stand stronger then ever when all is said and done. Thankfully, I don't claim to be a prophet and so that's just my opinion, and I will stand in it if I am wrong.
[i believe it is not premature to claim that if there is ANY improvement, it is largely BECAUSE the
pebble down the mountainside of the GSC resulted in an avalanche HERE that swept across the
membership of CES/STFI. Which, of course, is MY main objection.]
Any questions you have regarding the ministry and how it was run, I would be happy to answer. In six years, I believe that I understand the hearts and motives of the leaders in this ministry. This has come both by listening to their words, and watching their actions. I believe that I can fairly represent the true issues at hand for those who actually have a desire to know.
God bless,
Matthew
[The only questions I have would be PUBLIC ones, and you've already said you WON'T reply to those.
This may be just me, but I've noticed what may be the beginning of a trend so far.
Twice we've heard from people claiming to represent CES/STFI as insiders
(JAL before, SirValiant now)
and BOTH times, they claimed in their initial posts to eschew public discourse and would ONLY
communicate when they could control the microphone.
(I am excepting Jeff, who is an obvious exception who might prove to argue otherwise.)
I'm prayin for you all. I have not had the heart to keep up with this thread. It is too reminiscent of bad times gone by. I do have a very close friend in Texas who has skirted CES recently, and so I will take time to warn him. Thanks for posting some of that awful prophecy stuff. I have copied it so I can let my friend know what is going on behind stiffy closed doors. Take care ad God bless ...
On Monday, I emailed John Lynn and John Schoenheit ... John Lynn emailed me back asking for a link to this thread which I sent to him. Hope he responds to all this and gives his side of the story.
If JAL was REALLY unaware of this discussion UNTIL YOU E-MAILED HIM,
my view of how well-informed he is of things he should be aware of would drop again.
As it is, I think he was already aware of it, and you've prompted a response,
which is to the better.
Maybe THIS time he'll stay and DISCUSS, rather than make a "drive-by post" like he did
the LAST time, announcing that he would refuse to engage us in dialogue here or on any
other board, and only communicate PRIVATELY.
JS, I have no knowledge of him on which to base a comment, and he has never posted here.
(Or at least not under his own name if he HAS, which is his privilege.)
John Schoenheit emailed me yesterday and below is his response. I'm sure he won't mind me posting his response, as it does contain some useful information with no personal info. about anyone:
Dear Phil,
I am glad you contacted us. You cannot believe everything you read. However, the PAC has been disbanded, and we are studying personal prophecy more closely. You know, if you read some websites about speaking in tongues it sounds terribly ungodly (and a Federal Judge ruled Evangelicals not a legitimate branch of Christianity in September), but that does not make it so. I have written a book on prophecy, I would suggest you read it, it will help you separate truth from error a bunch on this topic, and if you have questions, just call or write. Again, I appreciate your taking the time to write me.
Merry Christmas!
John Schoenheit
I assume the PAC means the "Prophetic Council". So that is gone.
Seems like personal prophesy is still around but they are examining it more closely, which I think is a good thing under the circumstances.
Looks like JS is refusing to engage in dialogue as well. This does NOT reflect well on them OR the
organization. What's his explanation so far (which looks to be ALL the answer he's giving?)
"Don't believe everything you read, and buy my book."
We also have confirmation that they really WERE running the railroad by means of this
"personal prophecy" thing at least for some time, since there was a "Prophetic Council."
Complete with an acronym.
They've been using it for HOW many years, and NOW it's being studied more closely?
I have an off-topic question that I will spin off into a new topic (not CES/STFI related.)
How do you ''study'' personal prophesy???? :blink:
You can examine the letter of how a doctrine is defined.
You can study the accounts in Scripture (to see if they apply AT ALL and/or are being applied CORRECTLY.)
You can review how a doctrine is being disseminated.
You can review how a doctrine is being PRACTICED.
And BEFORE putting one into practice,
you can examine its official definition, study the accounts in Scripture, state how it is to be
taught and practiced.
Seems THOSE steps were glossed over in CES/STFI regarding personal prophecy-
or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.....
There is a lot more going on than meets the eye.
Personally, I'm in the mode of watching, praying and waiting.
Remember how vulnerable you felt when you realized that TWi wasn't what you thought it was. For me there was a real mixture of pain, disbelief, denial, loss. I'm sure that there are folks that are reading here that are going through this again - some of them are maybe saying, "NOT this again!"
I'd say that in our quest to know what is happening we should temper our words with compassionand wisdom. Remember that in some ways we really normally wouldn't know any of this at all - it's kinda like peeking in on someone through a keyhole just because we can.
Personally I am appalled at how many of you have judged these matters without knowing even a fraction of the truth. One of the reasons I have never posted on this board before is because it saddens me so much to see how much pain exists within many of the members here. But sadder then that is the bitterness with which many of you approach life--so full of critical judgment, yet so lacking in grace.
i'm gonna be blunt, sir"valiant," because you deserve it: you're an idiot. (how's that for lacking in grace?) you're blinded by your religion. i don't need every detail to KNOW--i repeat, KNOW--that you guys are NUTS. you can't see it because it would invalidate your life to you. i know, i've been there. and i love the fact that you're so self-righteously critical of our criticism. that's the very definiton of "hypocrite" to me. (as in "religious hypocrite.") hey, i disagree with lots of what gets posted here, but i love the fact that people are trying to THINK FOR THEMSELVES. maybe you should try it sometime. i mean it.
I have no doubt I will be "flamed" in this thread because of my opinion, but don't waste your time as I won't respond to it. If you take offense at my opinion PM me and I would be happy to talk to you.
However, the PAC has been disbanded, and we are studying personal prophecy more closely
Hmm.. who are "we"? "We" as in the Queen of England? Sounds like more subtle posturing for power-
"Well, you oughta KNOW who WE are".. ptooie.
If disbanded, who is running the place?
You know, if you read some websites about speaking in tongues it sounds terribly ungodly (and a Federal Judge ruled Evangelicals not a legitimate branch of Christianity in September), but that does not make it so.
Huh?
What does that have to do with the present circumstances at CES? What do you mean? Is the bad old judge picking on CES? I could spin that little statement a couple dozen of ways..
I have written a book on prophecy, I would suggest you read it, it will help you separate truth from error a bunch on this topic
Really? Lessee.. you just dissolved your beloved "P(rophetic)AC" and yet your book is STILL the best thing since sliced bread? Sure.. send me a dozen copies.. sure I can find some use for them..
Yet one more shameless plug. "Show over, wanna buy my book?"
I think anyone might have seen this coming in the last 3 or so years. The heightened hubris and seduction of power by certain members of this organization has been made clear to myself and others who have been either ostracized or "kicked out." The track record of people who have been disenchanted with the "truth" this ministry declares shows how love has been left out of the equation.
If you check out Max Webers sociology of religion you can see that history often repeats itself in this manner. Ecclesiastes is right. There is nothing new under the sun.
What a bunch of crap. Take down your stupid titles of your ministries and just walk. Stay in your realm of influance & stop trying to make the Word more than it is. Each believer has Christ in them, let them manifest it and function within the Body of Christ.
Let the local leadership (who is to serve, not be served, judgemental & critical) help people. People need to be loved, not dogged to death. Go get real jobs JAL, MG, KG. Get out amoung the people and stop trying to think you are more "spiritual" than other believers. The gift ministries are to bring healing, all your bringing is "hell".
Prophecy, crap, crap. Not the way you are presenting it. Write your stupid books and miss the simplicity of the Word everywhere.
Even when Paul went to Jeruselem, God covered him and Luke went with him. No meekness, no humbleness. Get your lives simple, that's prophecy.
Good Lord.
Father I pray your heart is not hurt by this crap today, in the name of Jesus Christ. May your men and women rise up to the simple, loving, compassionate, healing & abundant life you have called us to and may the egotists drop off this earth quickly.
Give them Lord grace but kick their butts big time so they wake up.
I don't think we're being critical or judgmental - we're just appalled.
For those who have been out of a controlling religious environment for years now, when we look at see what has gone on with CES - it just seems insane.
To those still in, I guess this is just another normal everyday thing, or something that, well, if we make a change, all will be better and we can continue on.
But from an outsider's perspective, one who has been away from cults and free from their bondage, it is very understandable - our perspective.
The evil hatred of the "Prophetic Council" that was manifested against an individual, how much different, really, when it comes right down to it, is it different than the little group that ran the inquisition, the Salem accusations, etc. Same spirit, same little groups, different times.
I truly believe TWI did not teach a personal relationship with Christ. Thus, its leaders had no knowledge of Christ. Remember, we are his body, we are supposed to be and live in intimate communion with him.
Its not about studying the "Word" constantly and loading up with head knowledge. It is about having communion with Christ and allowing him to unfold the Word to you.
These leaders never knew Christ in TWI, as many of us did not. The "Word" took the place of the ABSENT Christ. God, in his grace and mercy has allowed many of us who have left to have that relationship, via the Holy Spirit working in our hearts.
All the research in the world will not fix this situation because this church in particular has become disconnected from the head - Christ. As Christ says to the churches today - wake up!
It will never get better. Why do you feel the need to follow men, dreamers, prophets, those who feel a personal relationship with God and Christ does not offer enough and therefore must run after the dreamers for more?
Why do these people feel they are prophets, apostles, etc. (of course, in TWI, Prophet was the most "coveted" ministry one could have). Why do they feel they must set themselves up as "leaders."
I think Christ has said depart from me. There is a reason sudden calamity has fallen upon this organization.
You can sit here and blame it on us, on people, on the devil, maybe its just God's way of getting people the heck out of a idolitrous situation where Christ is absent.
This isn't being judgmental, this is just good old common sense, or "prudence," as the Bible also exhorts us to use. You can say we're judgmental, but truly, these are not "Godly fruits." Yes, we shall judge angels, and there's no reason, if something is so obviously screwed up, we cannot comment on it.
I'm not completely sure that any discussion by the Board of CES/STFI can be expected to be done here. Even though a lot of people would like to see that -to me it doesn't really make sense.
It would be similiar to my HUGE Italian family discussing the reason that two sister-in-laws started a family feud - only they discuss it on national TV.
Sure, we have a message board and forums in place - but most of us have no dog in this fight. Sure, we want to see a loving resolution to the matter and the complete halt to anyone getting hurt by further abuses of this nature. Many of us have friends in CES/STFI, that is a basis for concern that is natural and loving. I tend to think that a lot of us JUST CARE about what is going on and are praying for the situation.
Once again - remember that no matter what you read, no matter what you hear, no matter what you think you know about the situation - there is more to the story. It takes time and a lot of digging to totally uncover a matter when so many people have been involved for so long. It takes time to "uncoil the spin" so to speak. It might take a machete to cut through the BS.
This process will take longer than a week and it will see many changes. I'm sure of it - because people are people.
In the end, what must be looked after is not the organization - but the people.
Its easy to point and laugh and say, "I told you so!" Its a different matter to roll up one's sleeves and take part of the triage and healing. I'd much rather spend my time helping the wounded than examining how they got that way.
On Monday, I emailed John Lynn and John Schoenheit ... John Lynn emailed me back asking for a link to this thread which I sent to him. Hope he responds to all this and gives his side of the story.
John Schoenheit emailed me yesterday and below is his response. I'm sure he won't mind me posting his response, as it does contain some useful information with no personal info. about anyone:
I assume the PAC means the "Prophetic Council". So that is gone.
Seems like personal prophesy is still around but they are examining it more closely, which I think is a good thing under the circumstances.
Oldies --
Thanks for posting this. This isn't directed AT you, okay?
BUT....
How can JS consider this a RESPONSE?
He's saying "don't believe everything and buy my book"
B F D! This isn't a stinkin' response!
He takes no ownership. He clarifies nothign. Offers no action plan. Does nothing to comfort.
This isn't a response - it's a sales pitch!
I wasn't impressed with them before this - I felt they weren't shepherds or teachers before.
This ESTABLISHES their lacking ministry, in my opinion.
And yes, history will repeat itself - sad but true.
Yes the prophetic has been abused, yes people have been hurt, and yes it probably went on to long.
Well heck, yeah, darn.......... the prophetic has been abused, yes people have been hurt, dang it those dang followers always messing up our ministry by getting hurt- if they would just follow our counsel and leadership like the sheep they are, just keep sending the money and yeah don't forget to buy my new book, life is messy you know......, big deal.........and yes it probably went on too long..........yeah probably I guess
Goodness - open your spiritual ears and hear what and how you are saying these things......it sounds to me like the people that follow this ministry are pretty expendable. Just kinda blowing it off.
We are, in many of your eyes, in a lose-lose situation.
Actually you are in a win/win situation now if you allow God to open the eyes of your understanding, and walk away and read your bible and help others less fortunate than you. Go to a homelss shelter and serve christmas dinner. Learn some humility.
It will never get better. Why do you feel the need to follow men, dreamers, prophets, those who feel a personal relationship with God and Christ does not offer enough and therefore must run after the dreamers for more?
Sunesis, I would say because their PERSONAL dream means SO LITTLE to them.
I threw mine away once, thinking this kind of hucksterism had more to offer..
Thanks for posting this. This isn't directed AT you, okay?
BUT....
How can JS consider this a RESPONSE?
He's saying "don't believe everything and buy my book"
B F D! This isn't a stinkin' response!
He takes no ownership. He clarifies nothign. Offers no action plan. Does nothing to comfort.
This isn't a response - it's a sales pitch!
I wasn't impressed with them before this - I felt they weren't shepherds or teachers before.
This ESTABLISHES their lacking ministry, in my opinion.
And yes, history will repeat itself - sad but true.
In fairness to John & John, I wasn't asking for any kind of response when I emailed them ... I just pointed out that this thread existed, and gave my two cents worth. Yes I agree they should give a detailed comprehensive response, but just because they didn't give *me* one, doesn't mean it won't ever be there.
Schoenheit suggested to read his book on prophesy. Not a bad idea, since I know nothing about their personal prophecy doctrine.
And they disbanded the "Prophetic Council"! That's a good thing!
I don't think we're being critical or judgmental - we're just appalled.
And what if we _were_ being critical or judgmental?
Critical: Critical thinking consists of a mental process of analyzing or evaluating information, particularly statements or propositions that people have offered as true. It forms a process of reflecting upon the meaning of statements, examining the offered evidence and reasoning, and forming judgments about the facts.
Judgmental: Apt to pass judgment, especially to make moral judgments.
Maybe the question shouldn't be whether we are being critical or judgmental, even if it winds up being negative, but as to whether that criticism or judgment winds up being true.
<_<
Yes I agree they should give a detailed comprehensive response, but just because they didn't give *me* one, doesn't mean it won't ever be there.
Personally, I'm getting a little tired of being judged as judgmental.
"Excuse me, I don't mean to judge, but I think the pilot of that plane is heading toward that building. Not to question his motives or anything. But let's wait and see what happens before we say anything for sure. Holy cow, looks like I was right. Wow. Straight into the building. Hey, look, another plane ont he same flight path. Now, I don't want to judge, but..."
BE SOBER AND VIGILANT!!!
vigilant: alert to the possibilty and/or presence of danger.
But of course, to call something dangerous is to judge it, no?
Tried to confront these things in 1998. Not many listened. Unfortunately, they had to go through their own horrific situations to possibly start to see the deception for themselves.
Way back then said the following: Grasers wanted to and would take over the ministry, JAL would be told who to marry, then told to divorce...all through personal prophecy and dreams and suggestions, there would be a big problem with JAL and family because they would be the only ones that would continue to fight for his life. All these things have come to pass. These statements did not come through a dream or a personal prophecy...maybe true prophecy? Thank God for all of you that are taking the time to write and expose and help others...we have all learned so much since these times of involvement...let's use these for good to help those in need and so they can get rescued. You are wonderful...thank God for you!
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notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
Sushi
I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
Whatsgoingon
I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
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LornaDoone
The more I see this crap the more I want to puke. You want to know the downfall.
"Let's learn some new thing, we just have to learn some new thing". Let's "study" the Word and have a new doctrine, keep them coming.
1. When the hell are believers going to learn that Christ is the Head of the Church.
2. They can't learn "some new thing" they have not mastered the basics of being a Christian "and the greatest of these is charity" out of a pure heart.
3. Prophecy, ha, where in the new testament does someone see another believer "in a dream" with their f'n head spinning, crap coming out of their mouth & vicious dogs. BARF, BARF, BARF.
What happened to the Love of God, it is obviously gone from alot of people, trying to be something they will never be, more important than the people they supposedly serve. Love is supposed to cover a multitude of sins.
I find this whole situation so distasteful it sickens me. I left TWI because of the treatment of other people. Those who thought they had a real in with God. I got so spiritually angry, I blasted them good & left them standing with their jaws dropping. I sure hope JAL reads this stuff. Ego's run wild. These guys must have some real inferiority complexes to tear down believers in the name of God. I think an apostle did that before JESUS CHRIST witnessed to him on the road to Demascus. Remember him. The only difference is that he literally killed them. Here you have people tearing other believers down & who knows how many may have committed suicide because of TWI & dangerous cults like this.
Believers just need to meet in their homes, love each other and continually pray together & keep it together. I believe the Word speaks for itself on how a family are to operate. A house divided cannot stand. Everyone does not have the same walk and function. Even the feeble are MORE necessary and members in particular. From whence cometh wars among you. Maybe they should reread the basics and stop trying to be so f'n smart.
I certainly wish each and every one of you a wonderful holiday, filled with love and compassion. I am not Catholic but we could all certainly learn form Mother Teresa. Don't know about you but I'm a saint. God said so. I can do all things.
God bless you all and Eliz............have a big drink on me.
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Jeff USAF RET
TherebutforGrace.....
Thank you for the above post.
It has touched me deeply. Keep in mind that Dave n Sue Carlson were such dear friends. We loved them. I watched them go through a lot of this and said nothing. Shame on me!!!
I have read your post twice and sent it to a few folks.....I will print it off and ponder it some more.
After being on the Home Office staff for 6 1/2 years and now being off for the last two months, I am seeing a lot of things in a whole new light.
I am praying there is a change coming that will take the ministry I love to a much higher ground.
Time will tell......praying to hear more and see more.
God forgive me for not seeing so much of this sooner...and I am no kid....actually, I have a kid about to turn 20!
This is my time to grow up and make sure Christ is really my head....I know I have looked to men and not Christ too many times in my life.
Thanks again for your heart and insight. Sounds like I might know you????
Jeff
p.s. I am reading and pondering all that is said here......may this never happen again.....
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oldiesman
On Monday, I emailed John Lynn and John Schoenheit ... John Lynn emailed me back asking for a link to this thread which I sent to him. Hope he responds to all this and gives his side of the story.
John Schoenheit emailed me yesterday and below is his response. I'm sure he won't mind me posting his response, as it does contain some useful information with no personal info. about anyone:
I assume the PAC means the "Prophetic Council". So that is gone.
Seems like personal prophesy is still around but they are examining it more closely, which I think is a good thing under the circumstances.
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WordWolf
[WordWolf responds in boldface.]
[The only questions I have would be PUBLIC ones, and you've already said you WON'T reply to those.
This may be just me, but I've noticed what may be the beginning of a trend so far.
Twice we've heard from people claiming to represent CES/STFI as insiders
(JAL before, SirValiant now)
and BOTH times, they claimed in their initial posts to eschew public discourse and would ONLY
communicate when they could control the microphone.
(I am excepting Jeff, who is an obvious exception who might prove to argue otherwise.)
Do they really think this will end discussion,
and is this a healthy way to run a railroad?]
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Calflor
Spiritual freeloaders...playing church...f'ing with peoples lives... and donors, stop enabling these people with your moolah!
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J0nny Ling0
I'm prayin for you all. I have not had the heart to keep up with this thread. It is too reminiscent of bad times gone by. I do have a very close friend in Texas who has skirted CES recently, and so I will take time to warn him. Thanks for posting some of that awful prophecy stuff. I have copied it so I can let my friend know what is going on behind stiffy closed doors. Take care ad God bless
...
Jonny Lingo
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bliss
How do you ''study'' personal prophesy???? :blink:
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WordWolf
If JAL was REALLY unaware of this discussion UNTIL YOU E-MAILED HIM,
my view of how well-informed he is of things he should be aware of would drop again.
As it is, I think he was already aware of it, and you've prompted a response,
which is to the better.
Maybe THIS time he'll stay and DISCUSS, rather than make a "drive-by post" like he did
the LAST time, announcing that he would refuse to engage us in dialogue here or on any
other board, and only communicate PRIVATELY.
JS, I have no knowledge of him on which to base a comment, and he has never posted here.
(Or at least not under his own name if he HAS, which is his privilege.)
Looks like JS is refusing to engage in dialogue as well. This does NOT reflect well on them OR the
organization. What's his explanation so far (which looks to be ALL the answer he's giving?)
"Don't believe everything you read, and buy my book."
We also have confirmation that they really WERE running the railroad by means of this
"personal prophecy" thing at least for some time, since there was a "Prophetic Council."
Complete with an acronym.
They've been using it for HOW many years, and NOW it's being studied more closely?
I have an off-topic question that I will spin off into a new topic (not CES/STFI related.)
You can examine the letter of how a doctrine is defined.
You can study the accounts in Scripture (to see if they apply AT ALL and/or are being applied CORRECTLY.)
You can review how a doctrine is being disseminated.
You can review how a doctrine is being PRACTICED.
And BEFORE putting one into practice,
you can examine its official definition, study the accounts in Scripture, state how it is to be
taught and practiced.
Seems THOSE steps were glossed over in CES/STFI regarding personal prophecy-
or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.....
This bears repeating.
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sprawled out
i'm gonna be blunt, sir"valiant," because you deserve it: you're an idiot. (how's that for lacking in grace?) you're blinded by your religion. i don't need every detail to KNOW--i repeat, KNOW--that you guys are NUTS. you can't see it because it would invalidate your life to you. i know, i've been there. and i love the fact that you're so self-righteously critical of our criticism. that's the very definiton of "hypocrite" to me. (as in "religious hypocrite.") hey, i disagree with lots of what gets posted here, but i love the fact that people are trying to THINK FOR THEMSELVES. maybe you should try it sometime. i mean it.
figures. they taught you well.
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Ham
"Well, you oughta KNOW who WE are".. ptooie.
If disbanded, who is running the place?
Huh?
What does that have to do with the present circumstances at CES? What do you mean? Is the bad old judge picking on CES? I could spin that little statement a couple dozen of ways..
Really? Lessee.. you just dissolved your beloved "P(rophetic)AC" and yet your book is STILL the best thing since sliced bread? Sure.. send me a dozen copies.. sure I can find some use for them..
Yet one more shameless plug. "Show over, wanna buy my book?"
Sheesh.
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soulsurfer
I think anyone might have seen this coming in the last 3 or so years. The heightened hubris and seduction of power by certain members of this organization has been made clear to myself and others who have been either ostracized or "kicked out." The track record of people who have been disenchanted with the "truth" this ministry declares shows how love has been left out of the equation.
If you check out Max Webers sociology of religion you can see that history often repeats itself in this manner. Ecclesiastes is right. There is nothing new under the sun.
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LornaDoone
What a bunch of crap. Take down your stupid titles of your ministries and just walk. Stay in your realm of influance & stop trying to make the Word more than it is. Each believer has Christ in them, let them manifest it and function within the Body of Christ.
Let the local leadership (who is to serve, not be served, judgemental & critical) help people. People need to be loved, not dogged to death. Go get real jobs JAL, MG, KG. Get out amoung the people and stop trying to think you are more "spiritual" than other believers. The gift ministries are to bring healing, all your bringing is "hell".
Prophecy, crap, crap. Not the way you are presenting it. Write your stupid books and miss the simplicity of the Word everywhere.
Even when Paul went to Jeruselem, God covered him and Luke went with him. No meekness, no humbleness. Get your lives simple, that's prophecy.
Good Lord.
Father I pray your heart is not hurt by this crap today, in the name of Jesus Christ. May your men and women rise up to the simple, loving, compassionate, healing & abundant life you have called us to and may the egotists drop off this earth quickly.
Give them Lord grace but kick their butts big time so they wake up.
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Sunesis
I don't think we're being critical or judgmental - we're just appalled.
For those who have been out of a controlling religious environment for years now, when we look at see what has gone on with CES - it just seems insane.
To those still in, I guess this is just another normal everyday thing, or something that, well, if we make a change, all will be better and we can continue on.
But from an outsider's perspective, one who has been away from cults and free from their bondage, it is very understandable - our perspective.
The evil hatred of the "Prophetic Council" that was manifested against an individual, how much different, really, when it comes right down to it, is it different than the little group that ran the inquisition, the Salem accusations, etc. Same spirit, same little groups, different times.
I truly believe TWI did not teach a personal relationship with Christ. Thus, its leaders had no knowledge of Christ. Remember, we are his body, we are supposed to be and live in intimate communion with him.
Its not about studying the "Word" constantly and loading up with head knowledge. It is about having communion with Christ and allowing him to unfold the Word to you.
These leaders never knew Christ in TWI, as many of us did not. The "Word" took the place of the ABSENT Christ. God, in his grace and mercy has allowed many of us who have left to have that relationship, via the Holy Spirit working in our hearts.
All the research in the world will not fix this situation because this church in particular has become disconnected from the head - Christ. As Christ says to the churches today - wake up!
It will never get better. Why do you feel the need to follow men, dreamers, prophets, those who feel a personal relationship with God and Christ does not offer enough and therefore must run after the dreamers for more?
Why do these people feel they are prophets, apostles, etc. (of course, in TWI, Prophet was the most "coveted" ministry one could have). Why do they feel they must set themselves up as "leaders."
I think Christ has said depart from me. There is a reason sudden calamity has fallen upon this organization.
You can sit here and blame it on us, on people, on the devil, maybe its just God's way of getting people the heck out of a idolitrous situation where Christ is absent.
This isn't being judgmental, this is just good old common sense, or "prudence," as the Bible also exhorts us to use. You can say we're judgmental, but truly, these are not "Godly fruits." Yes, we shall judge angels, and there's no reason, if something is so obviously screwed up, we cannot comment on it.
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doojable
On a side note.....
I'm not completely sure that any discussion by the Board of CES/STFI can be expected to be done here. Even though a lot of people would like to see that -to me it doesn't really make sense.
It would be similiar to my HUGE Italian family discussing the reason that two sister-in-laws started a family feud - only they discuss it on national TV.
Sure, we have a message board and forums in place - but most of us have no dog in this fight. Sure, we want to see a loving resolution to the matter and the complete halt to anyone getting hurt by further abuses of this nature. Many of us have friends in CES/STFI, that is a basis for concern that is natural and loving. I tend to think that a lot of us JUST CARE about what is going on and are praying for the situation.
Once again - remember that no matter what you read, no matter what you hear, no matter what you think you know about the situation - there is more to the story. It takes time and a lot of digging to totally uncover a matter when so many people have been involved for so long. It takes time to "uncoil the spin" so to speak. It might take a machete to cut through the BS.
This process will take longer than a week and it will see many changes. I'm sure of it - because people are people.
In the end, what must be looked after is not the organization - but the people.
Its easy to point and laugh and say, "I told you so!" Its a different matter to roll up one's sleeves and take part of the triage and healing. I'd much rather spend my time helping the wounded than examining how they got that way.
I'll just go back to my corner now........
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NewParadigm
Fiber!
Increased dietary fiber will take care of this
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ChasUFarley
Oldies --
Thanks for posting this. This isn't directed AT you, okay?
BUT....
How can JS consider this a RESPONSE?
He's saying "don't believe everything and buy my book"
B F D! This isn't a stinkin' response!
He takes no ownership. He clarifies nothign. Offers no action plan. Does nothing to comfort.
This isn't a response - it's a sales pitch!
I wasn't impressed with them before this - I felt they weren't shepherds or teachers before.
This ESTABLISHES their lacking ministry, in my opinion.
And yes, history will repeat itself - sad but true.
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outofdafog
Yes the prophetic has been abused, yes people have been hurt, and yes it probably went on to long.
Well heck, yeah, darn.......... the prophetic has been abused, yes people have been hurt, dang it those dang followers always messing up our ministry by getting hurt- if they would just follow our counsel and leadership like the sheep they are, just keep sending the money and yeah don't forget to buy my new book, life is messy you know......, big deal.........and yes it probably went on too long..........yeah probably I guess
Goodness - open your spiritual ears and hear what and how you are saying these things......it sounds to me like the people that follow this ministry are pretty expendable. Just kinda blowing it off.
We are, in many of your eyes, in a lose-lose situation.
Actually you are in a win/win situation now if you allow God to open the eyes of your understanding, and walk away and read your bible and help others less fortunate than you. Go to a homelss shelter and serve christmas dinner. Learn some humility.
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Ductape
Ha!
Their tried and true answer to everything: read this book or listen to this tape!
Such warm and fuzzie care for their fellow humans.
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Ham
Sunesis, I would say because their PERSONAL dream means SO LITTLE to them.
I threw mine away once, thinking this kind of hucksterism had more to offer..
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TheEvan
Welcome to the 'spot, Paradigm.
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oldiesman
In fairness to John & John, I wasn't asking for any kind of response when I emailed them ... I just pointed out that this thread existed, and gave my two cents worth. Yes I agree they should give a detailed comprehensive response, but just because they didn't give *me* one, doesn't mean it won't ever be there.
Schoenheit suggested to read his book on prophesy. Not a bad idea, since I know nothing about their personal prophecy doctrine.
And they disbanded the "Prophetic Council"! That's a good thing!
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GarthP2000
Critical: Critical thinking consists of a mental process of analyzing or evaluating information, particularly statements or propositions that people have offered as true. It forms a process of reflecting upon the meaning of statements, examining the offered evidence and reasoning, and forming judgments about the facts.
Judgmental: Apt to pass judgment, especially to make moral judgments.
Maybe the question shouldn't be whether we are being critical or judgmental, even if it winds up being negative, but as to whether that criticism or judgment winds up being true.
<_<
Want to place a bet on that?
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Raf
Personally, I'm getting a little tired of being judged as judgmental.
"Excuse me, I don't mean to judge, but I think the pilot of that plane is heading toward that building. Not to question his motives or anything. But let's wait and see what happens before we say anything for sure. Holy cow, looks like I was right. Wow. Straight into the building. Hey, look, another plane ont he same flight path. Now, I don't want to judge, but..."
BE SOBER AND VIGILANT!!!
vigilant: alert to the possibilty and/or presence of danger.
But of course, to call something dangerous is to judge it, no?
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onefinecustom
Tried to confront these things in 1998. Not many listened. Unfortunately, they had to go through their own horrific situations to possibly start to see the deception for themselves.
Way back then said the following: Grasers wanted to and would take over the ministry, JAL would be told who to marry, then told to divorce...all through personal prophecy and dreams and suggestions, there would be a big problem with JAL and family because they would be the only ones that would continue to fight for his life. All these things have come to pass. These statements did not come through a dream or a personal prophecy...maybe true prophecy? Thank God for all of you that are taking the time to write and expose and help others...we have all learned so much since these times of involvement...let's use these for good to help those in need and so they can get rescued. You are wonderful...thank God for you!
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