Am I the only one who almost got physically nauseaus reading Elizabeth's letter?
The demonic accusations this woman has had to endure under the guise of "prophecy." The - ok, I'll say it, though I hate to - the "devlishness" of the prophetic council - truly, satan's ministers have been working overtime masquerading as ministers of light.
The hate, creulty and condemnation they have driven into this woman's life to the point of contemplating ending it - this is not of God.
I don't care how "strong" JAL is in the "word" - anyone can memorize verses and chapters, but to allow anyone to gossip and accuse one's wife like that is disgusting and shameful in my book."
I agree with you Sunesis, I was not only sickened, all I could think about was the Salem Witch Trials. These guys are nuts, nuts, nuts, cult of the worst degree.
Calling Mark's attempted kiss, "sexual involvement," is an overstatement and likely to be construed as an affair. He was married and approached Elizabeth to kiss her. She rebuffed him, the end.
I'm going to say this loud as I can: ELIZABETH LYNN IS NOT ON TRIAL.
Comments about her "innocence" are, in my opinion, comPLETEly out of line. One thing I see that apparently is not in dispute is that a so-called prophetic ministry was used to undermine her marriage. Whether there are other reasons for their breakup is WHOLLY IRRELEVANT and between her and John alone.
I feel the same way about any prior relationship that existed in the 1980s between two consenting adults who were not, at the time, in leadership positions in the church.
Captain Crunch, thank you for clarifying the "sexual involvement" statement. You're right; it did look like there was an affair to cover up.
If Mark is using his current ministry position to prey upon women and cover it up as godly, that's reprehensible. There's no evidence of that whatsoever. If Mark, 20 years ago, had a moment of weakness and was put in his place, I hope and pray he learned his lesson and has moved on, as we all should (as far as that incident is concerned).
Actually I don't care what Elizabeth's sins are or the fact that some believe she was not on trial. Sure sounds like a trial to me. Make these changes, do this this way, JAL divorce your wife?
A real man would stand by his wife no matter what and help her thru. He is spiritually responsible for her, not everyone else. These "false" prophets are speweing out garbage. Good Lord, let him that is without sin cast the first stone. Shame on you JAL.
Thank you for your well-written post and for your offer to converse with any interested parties.
I too feel like some in CES are like family. I have been involved in some fashion since 1988 when John Lynn, Ralph Debofsky and Robert Belt wrote a 37 page letter that helped those of us that left TWI after the Adultery paper firings to grieve and move on.
However, I would add these comments to yours below:
I no longer trust Mark and Karen Anne Graeser. .... As more facts have come to light, I have seen that there are a handful of others who are not to be trusted with leadership positions. ...
...But one person's sin is not going to drive me away from a ministry, especially not when so many people are holding her feet to the fire.
It would seem that in your eyes this is more than one person with sin because you no longer trust others in leadership positions.
...Yes the prophetic has been abused, yes people have been hurt, and yes it probably went on to long. ...
Hopefully the Sower will illuminate the truth of these sins and true repentence. Not try to spin it in a web of half truths
...Nearly all of the concerns I have seen on here are completely unmerited with no real evidence to back them up.
This was a little too vague. Some of these posts are people's concerns based on the little bit of information that has been allowed to get out. And my understanding is that it is adding fuel to the cleansing fire.
... I believe that CES will stand stronger then ever when all is said and done.
How many board meetings did you attend? You also speak of not running people off. Was this courtesy extended to Dave and Sue Carlson? How many leaders promised the Carlsons support and then abandoned them at the last second? How many of these leaders have repented of just this one incident? How many others have been run off over the past six years, Matt?
Matt how long did these leaders deceive you and hide from you their sins against others? Have you ever been aware of these sins and done nothing? Which is it - sins hidden or you aware and not speaking up? You cannot be foolish enough to believe this all began 6 months ago can you?
Can YOU name any of my other long time friends who were either driven off, or got tired of the wackiness and found something better?
I keep asking this question and never get an answer - is this ministry any larger now than it was ten years ago? People and ministries build up track records. This group of leaders and their ministry do have a track record.
Another former office staffer just wrote me about wondering about the ongoing high level of strife and conflict for years - the party line was CES was angering Satan and he was kicking back. Uh no! Love and the other fruit of the spirit should eventually evidence themselves in your relationships if you are ministering in a loving spirit. See and this was even in the back of the staffer's mind. But no-one spoke up! No-one campaigned for sanity! Who would have objected? I know.
Some have commented on a few of my posts and the fact that I am angry - but as one friend points out I have been angry for a few years now. Some of the people who are now on my side today, know I was angry way before they were. My problem is not knowing too little. It is knowing too much.
All it takes is for good men and women to do nothing and then we can all be slaves. I personally have no interest in being a slave to Satan.
There is a difference between wanting to do a good thing and actually accomplishing it. This ministry has had a rotten core for a while.
Richard
Personally I am appalled at how many of you have judged these matters without knowing even a fraction of the truth. One of the reasons I have never posted on this board before is because it saddens me so much to see how much pain exists within many of the members here. But sadder then that is the bitterness with which many of you approach life--so full of critical judgment, yet so lacking in grace.
I do not discount all of the people on here who are genuinely seeking truth and attempting to honestly sort through the current situation with CES. Yet, too many of you care only for another reason to shun "religion" and shun organization. I think it is a pitiful way to live, and for my own conscience sake I had to be honest about my feelings towards this board and some of its members before posting anything in regards to the CES situation. I have no doubt I will be "flamed" in this thread because of my opinion, but don't waste your time as I won't respond to it. If you take offense at my opinion PM me and I would be happy to talk to you.
I resigned from the office in early November for one very simple reason. I no longer trust Mark and Karen Anne Graeser. Mark is a very different man these days, many will attest to that. As more facts have come to light, I have seen that there are a handful of others who are not to be trusted with leadership positions. However, this ministry is a God-fearing, Christ-loving ministry and for six years I have seen nothing to contradict that fact. I only see now a few people who have found that they can no longer run from their sins and they are being held to account for them.
Yes the prophetic has been abused, yes people have been hurt, and yes it probably went on to long. Everyone always wants to ask why. The answer is simple. Life is messy. You criticize us now when we take too long to do what you would think is right, and you would certainly criticize us if we removed everyone from the ministry who committed even the slightest infraction. We are, in many of your eyes, in a lose-lose situation. It is for that reason that I write not for many of you on this board, but to the partners and contributors of CES who are already coming here trying to find answers.
The ministry has always been like a family to me. And like any family there are problems, and you don't run off members you disagree with, even when they cause hurt and pain. You extend love, grace, and forgiveness just as Jesus Christ would do. This was granted many times to the Graesers, yet now it has become obvious that they are unwilling to change and repent for the evil they have and are currently causing. The board members (with the exception of Tom Resner) are most certainly holding them accountable and I have seen nothing to suggest that they are in agreement with Karen's view of the prophetic, let alone the brazen and manipulative manner with which she carries out her so-called dreams from God. For those of you concerned about CES' view of the prophetic I can assure you that a handful of people hardly represent the ministries views. It pains me to know that she has been allowed to be so hurtful with so many people. But one person's sin is not going to drive me away from a ministry, especially not when so many people are holding her feet to the fire.
Nearly all of the concerns I have seen on here are completely unmerited with no real evidence to back them up. Should you be concerned about the way Elizabeth was treated? Absolutely, yet neither was she innocent in the role she played. Should you be concerned with the way some people are choosing to view and use prophecy? Absolutely, but none of you has the right to make blanket statements and far-fetched assumptions about how the ministry was run by this so-called prophetic guidance. It never has been, and because of the men and women who are taking a stand against Mark, I believe it never will be. In fact, perhaps to the dismay of some here, I believe that CES will stand stronger then ever when all is said and done. Thankfully, I don't claim to be a prophet and so that's just my opinion, and I will stand in it if I am wrong.
Any questions you have regarding the ministry and how it was run, I would be happy to answer. In six years, I believe that I understand the hearts and motives of the leaders in this ministry. This has come both by listening to their words, and watching their actions. I believe that I can fairly represent the true issues at hand for those who actually have a desire to know.
FYI: After some consultation with Pawtucket, I made a few edits to posts that appeared earlier in this thread (p.16 and 17, for those interested). I limited my edits to conversations about and specific responses to behaviors that were attributed to Elizabeth during her marriage to John. Some of the dialogue remains intact, such as the fact that such personal information was divulged in the first place.
Some things to consider: A marriage dissolved here. How and why that marriage dissolved is not the subject of this thread and is not appropriate for a public message board. Whether STFI's leadership, acting in that capacity, contributed to the dissolution of that marriage is fair game for discussion. Because the marriage in question involved a top member of STFI leadership, those two separate "compartments" are bound to intersect. To the extent the moderators are able to keep them separate, we will. When we cannot, we will assess each post on individual merits and make the best judgment we can, imperfect though we are.
I appreciate everyone's understanding and apologize to those whose posts were edited. My goal was to restore as much as possible, and if the end result is a little awkward, I accept responsibility for that.
Actually I don't care what Elizabeth's sins are or the fact that some believe she was not on trial. Sure sounds like a trial to me. Make these changes, do this this way, JAL divorce your wife?
Lorna,
When I said Elizabeth is not on trial, I meant that whether she is "innocent" in what happened between her and JAL is not the point. I agree that it appears STFI intruded on her marriage, but the fact that there were other contributing factors is none of my business.
Y'know, the tactics given by Matthew and a few others here in defense of CES remind me of some of the in-duh-viduals who backed the Titanic, who shortly after it struck the iceberg still thought it wasn't going to sink. To which the engineer emphatically replied, "Yes sirs! The ship will sink!" :unsure:
Now most likely they, like that ship's captain, will "go to the bridge, stand behind the wheel, and go down with the ship", even as the water pours into the bridge room.
My God, I just finished Elizabeth's letter and boy John should have kissed the ground she walked on for her loving insight. To think he sided against his wife with two a$$ holes who think they are God on a stick.
Karen Ann you should commit yourself, you and your husband are as bad as LCM & TWI.
Next to TWI, this is the most devilish organizaion if they continue to allow these two to function in any capacity. JAL, I spoke to you years ago about your time in TWI and your EGO and you told me you learned a few things since leaving. I think not.
Lording over people and legalism is bull ..... Perhaps you all should take a hiatis like LCM did and go work for UPS.
This makes me ill.................to even think about doing this to any believer. Shame on you all. Having seen these damnable spirits operate in TWI, I believe Elizabeth. Way to go Elizabeth, I hope you are lying in the sun enjoying life to the fullest.
As to CES, your fruit & teaching are being tried in a fire & will burn up if you don't get your act together and get your lives simple. Your egos are so overinflated I don't know if God could ever reach you again.
Personally, I'm in the mode of watching, praying and waiting.
Remember how vulnerable you felt when you realized that TWi wasn't what you thought it was. For me there was a real mixture of pain, disbelief, denial, loss. I'm sure that there are folks that are reading here that are going through this again - some of them are maybe saying, "NOT this again!"
I'd say that in our quest to know what is happening we should temper our words with compassion and wisdom. Remember that in some ways we really normally wouldn't know any of this at all - it's kinda like peeking in on someone through a keyhole just because we can.
On page 10 I posted a 5 page letter that I sent to the 3 CES leaders in November, 2000. If you have not yet read this letter and you want to have some background on how CES picked up their bad habit go to page 10 and then scroll down the page a bit until you find my post. I was looking on the Internet via a Google search for Christian International Bill Hamon. Yes, this is where CES picked up their personal prophecy error. I found one article so far with link below mixed in with a bunch of other links of religious propaganda. I have not had time to read it. Maybe it is good so check it out. Later on, if I can find it, I have a 40 page paper exposing a great deal of Christian International's folly which I have read in its entirety. I got it from a former poster here, Mark Coomer. He might have even written it. Maybe I will have more time for this later.
Matthew, how differently we’ve read this thread. I see almost no bitterness and much grace among these believers so I doubt you’ll get flamed.. Perhaps it’s because I’m old enough to be your grandparent. Anyway, let’s chat.
You wrote...”I resigned from the office in early November for one very simple reason. I no longer trust Mark and Karen Anne Graeser. Mark is a very different man these days, many will attest to that.“
Others will attest that your boss has not changed much at all. Staff members resigned as many as 15 years ago because they could no longer trust him. When Staff members resigned (or were fired and lied about) after his move to Indpls, still the rest of the Board refused to hear the former Staff member’s grievances and not only continued with business as usual, but allowed your boss to promote himself to BE the boss.
You wrote...“As more facts have come to light, I have seen that there are a handful of others who are not to be trusted with leadership positions.”
Our definitions of who should be trusted with leadership should be similar, since God wrote it clearly. As I said in an earlier post, I personally can not call anyone on the CES Board my leader...because they do not measure up to God’s list. Why not start with a blank page and re-read Timothy and make that list. Check it twice since it’s almost Christmas, and see if you come to a different conclusion than you now hold about who should be trusted with leadership.
For instance....
1. Would you say that a person could be trusted with a leadership position if he tells a believer that anything admitted to him in his ‘deliverance session’ will be confidential, but then tells the Board what he learned? Oh, but what if his reason was that “the Ministry needed to know these things.”?
2. How many believers would need to come to you saying that a leader badgered, threatened, browbeat, intimidated, frightened, accused, belittled, dismissed, made inappropriate comments to or verbally attacked them...(generally ‘sliced them up one side and down the other’) for you to say that he could not be trusted with a leadership position?
You wrote...“I only see now a few people who have found that they can no longer run from their sins and they are being held to account for them.”
Should CES leaders only be held accountable for the sins which CES leaders bring up? If not, then here are some more questions for you and for every CESer reading this post and anyone else considering supporting any church. Please talk these over with non-CES believers with whom you fellowship and whom you trust.
REMEMBER: I was a CESer! I love these people! Listen up, CESers! NOW can be the time to redeem our brothers and sisters from destruction! If you were going over a cliff wouldn’t you want us to try to stop you even if you kicked and bit and called us names?
3. How many believers would you say a church leader could refuse to hear grievances from before you’d call it sin? Meaning, if I could show you that XYZ leader has refused to hear from ___ believers through __ years who have lovingly spoken up, written up, called up or emailed up, would you call that arrogance sin for which he, too, should be remorseful and repent?
4. Would you think now might be the time for other CES leaders to learn a lesson here and openly ask for believers to give them feedback? “Please try again, this time I’ll hear you.”? This would need to be done with some amount of mutually-agreed upon semi-public or at least 3rd party involvement so it couldn’t just be swept right back under the rug, of course.
Now, I don't know a CES leader who values the opinions of anyone outside CES and since every leader inside CES will be needing to do this it might pose a bit of a logistical problem, but do you think the idea has merit? If you were in leadership would you be willing to hear from your sheep?
You wrote....“....you don't run off members you disagree with....”
Agreed...and that brings us back to those members who have been run off through the years....will they be welcome back to speak up now?
You wrote....“....none of you has the right to make blanket statements and far-fetched assumptions about how the ministry was run by this so-called prophetic guidance. It never has been, and because of the men and women who are taking a stand against Mark, I believe it never will be.”
Tomorrow I can give you examples of KA’s word/prophecies/dreams running the ministry. Then again, the Board of Directors could write a list longer than mine. Why not ask them? Why don’t all of you CESers ask all of these questions? Maybe ask.....Which ministry decisions have been according to KA’s ‘word from the Lord’? Which personal decisions have each of you made based on KA’s ‘words from the Lord’? How many believers routinely come to KA asking for a “word from the Lord’? How many have been cornered in order for KA to give them a ‘word from the Lord’? And, to a lesser degree, you could now ask the same of Tom and Susan’s ‘words’. If you get "none', let me know, I'l give you some, and you can ask again.
You wrote....“....to the partners and contributors of CES who are already coming here trying to find answers.”
PRAISE GOD if this is happening! Welcome, CESers...read on and ASK your LORD what is true here. Then re-read the cover letter of Elizabeth’s letter and follow your own JAL’s example when he heard of evil in TWI. Go to your Lord, go to the Word, then GO TO YOUR LEADERS AND ASK about these things. (Don’t go by yourself, and take a tape recorder with you. If they don’t agree, shake the dust off your feet as you walk away.)
You see, folks, as GSCers who are not involved with CES have so biblically stated....this is not only about the Gs.
It’s not only about how the Board/Staff treated JAL and Elizabeth. Every Board/Staff member watched and/or participated in that treatment and so did many CESers reading this post.
Ouch? OK think about it.....when the entire Board sent out the 7-7-04 M&A letter (..."we suggest that those who consider themselves to be friends of STFI or CES deal with E. in accordance with Rom 16:17,18.....") or when you were told in person or in writing that she was crazy or that she would 'take you out,' did you stay away from her? Did you ever call her? Did you ever write/email her? Did you treat her as Jesus told you to treat her (as you would want to be treated) or as CES told you to treat her.....and with how many other people have you done the same thing?!
This is not even only about whether KA ran the ministry with ‘prophecies’. Every Board/Staff member heard her ‘prophecies’ and dreams and visions for years and here we are today with a trail of evil.
And that is what this is about.
Evil, done in the Name of our Lord.
No, this is not a witch hunt, over with when the Gs are fired (pun intended).
Well, yes it is too a witch-hunt.....but it will be over with when the leaders HUMBLE THEMSELVES BEFORE THEIR LORD and their victims and allow the HOLY SPIRIT'S fire to cleanse their hearts!
Can't sit around and talk over there in ces or what?
All your leaders have avoided talking right here where it's being discussed.
You know why-Because this Scares the crap out of THEM.
They have to be overlords over whoever they talk to.
Jesus specifically warned against being like this.
Still they spit in His Face.
42But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
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notinKansasanymore
Well, then let's PRAY for them. If they're having troubles, and if their original intention was to serve God and help His people (and we can all recall that this is not a goal without natural obsta
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I'm not exactly sure of the quote, but someone once said, "All organizations have the seeds of death planted in them at their beginning", or something to that effect. You can be sure, whatever organiz
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I am very discouraged with my present involvement with STFI. If Mark G causes more issues with SFTI after he is removed from office next week we will probably cease our involvement with that organizat
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LornaDoone
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Captain Crunch
Just to clarify-
Calling Mark's attempted kiss, "sexual involvement," is an overstatement and likely to be construed as an affair. He was married and approached Elizabeth to kiss her. She rebuffed him, the end.
CC
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LornaDoone
[""Introduction to the Prophetic"
Prophetic Seminar 1999
Indianapolis IN
Partners' Price Only $30.00 Partners' Price Only $30.00
Tape 1 - "Introduction to the Prophetic" by Karen Anne Graeser
Tape 2 - "Seek to Excel" by John Lynn
Tape 3 - "Hearing God's Voice" by Karen Anne Graeser
Tape 4 - "I Cor 14: Discerning the Genuine from the Counterfeit" by Mark Graeser Tape 5A - "Prove All Things" by Gene Speakes
Tape 5B - " Evaluating Dominion Theology and the Prophetic" by Mark Graeser
Tape 6 - "Contending for the Faith" by John Schoenheit
Tape 7 & 8A - "Questions and Answers"
Boy I can't stand this ..... Knowledge sure does puff up. They will never move the Word until they get simple again. BARF :(
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Raf
I'm going to say this loud as I can: ELIZABETH LYNN IS NOT ON TRIAL.
Comments about her "innocence" are, in my opinion, comPLETEly out of line. One thing I see that apparently is not in dispute is that a so-called prophetic ministry was used to undermine her marriage. Whether there are other reasons for their breakup is WHOLLY IRRELEVANT and between her and John alone.
I feel the same way about any prior relationship that existed in the 1980s between two consenting adults who were not, at the time, in leadership positions in the church.
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excathedra
most y'all are crazy
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dmiller
Mathew (sirvaliant) -- thanks for that.
(While making sense to me -- it may not to others here.)
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excathedra
you wanna talk about something important
let's hear your religious crap
look at the open forum
my dear friend LG is dying
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Raf
Captain Crunch, thank you for clarifying the "sexual involvement" statement. You're right; it did look like there was an affair to cover up.
If Mark is using his current ministry position to prey upon women and cover it up as godly, that's reprehensible. There's no evidence of that whatsoever. If Mark, 20 years ago, had a moment of weakness and was put in his place, I hope and pray he learned his lesson and has moved on, as we all should (as far as that incident is concerned).
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Raf
Matthew, welcome to GS.
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LornaDoone
Actually I don't care what Elizabeth's sins are or the fact that some believe she was not on trial. Sure sounds like a trial to me. Make these changes, do this this way, JAL divorce your wife?
A real man would stand by his wife no matter what and help her thru. He is spiritually responsible for her, not everyone else. These "false" prophets are speweing out garbage. Good Lord, let him that is without sin cast the first stone. Shame on you JAL.
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richnchrispy
Matthew-
Thank you for your well-written post and for your offer to converse with any interested parties.
I too feel like some in CES are like family. I have been involved in some fashion since 1988 when John Lynn, Ralph Debofsky and Robert Belt wrote a 37 page letter that helped those of us that left TWI after the Adultery paper firings to grieve and move on.
However, I would add these comments to yours below:
It would seem that in your eyes this is more than one person with sin because you no longer trust others in leadership positions.Hopefully the Sower will illuminate the truth of these sins and true repentence. Not try to spin it in a web of half truths
This was a little too vague. Some of these posts are people's concerns based on the little bit of information that has been allowed to get out. And my understanding is that it is adding fuel to the cleansing fire.I pray you are correct.
Chrispy
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richnchrispy
Matt
How many board meetings did you attend? You also speak of not running people off. Was this courtesy extended to Dave and Sue Carlson? How many leaders promised the Carlsons support and then abandoned them at the last second? How many of these leaders have repented of just this one incident? How many others have been run off over the past six years, Matt?
Matt how long did these leaders deceive you and hide from you their sins against others? Have you ever been aware of these sins and done nothing? Which is it - sins hidden or you aware and not speaking up? You cannot be foolish enough to believe this all began 6 months ago can you?
Can YOU name any of my other long time friends who were either driven off, or got tired of the wackiness and found something better?
I keep asking this question and never get an answer - is this ministry any larger now than it was ten years ago? People and ministries build up track records. This group of leaders and their ministry do have a track record.
Another former office staffer just wrote me about wondering about the ongoing high level of strife and conflict for years - the party line was CES was angering Satan and he was kicking back. Uh no! Love and the other fruit of the spirit should eventually evidence themselves in your relationships if you are ministering in a loving spirit. See and this was even in the back of the staffer's mind. But no-one spoke up! No-one campaigned for sanity! Who would have objected? I know.
Some have commented on a few of my posts and the fact that I am angry - but as one friend points out I have been angry for a few years now. Some of the people who are now on my side today, know I was angry way before they were. My problem is not knowing too little. It is knowing too much.
All it takes is for good men and women to do nothing and then we can all be slaves. I personally have no interest in being a slave to Satan.
There is a difference between wanting to do a good thing and actually accomplishing it. This ministry has had a rotten core for a while.
Richard
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modcat5
FYI: After some consultation with Pawtucket, I made a few edits to posts that appeared earlier in this thread (p.16 and 17, for those interested). I limited my edits to conversations about and specific responses to behaviors that were attributed to Elizabeth during her marriage to John. Some of the dialogue remains intact, such as the fact that such personal information was divulged in the first place.
Some things to consider: A marriage dissolved here. How and why that marriage dissolved is not the subject of this thread and is not appropriate for a public message board. Whether STFI's leadership, acting in that capacity, contributed to the dissolution of that marriage is fair game for discussion. Because the marriage in question involved a top member of STFI leadership, those two separate "compartments" are bound to intersect. To the extent the moderators are able to keep them separate, we will. When we cannot, we will assess each post on individual merits and make the best judgment we can, imperfect though we are.
I appreciate everyone's understanding and apologize to those whose posts were edited. My goal was to restore as much as possible, and if the end result is a little awkward, I accept responsibility for that.
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dmiller
Modcat -- saw you on here, and wondered what was up.
Thanks for the explanation.
(Don't mind me -- I get paranoid, when authority shows up!!)
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Raf
Lorna,
When I said Elizabeth is not on trial, I meant that whether she is "innocent" in what happened between her and JAL is not the point. I agree that it appears STFI intruded on her marriage, but the fact that there were other contributing factors is none of my business.
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GarthP2000
Y'know, the tactics given by Matthew and a few others here in defense of CES remind me of some of the in-duh-viduals who backed the Titanic, who shortly after it struck the iceberg still thought it wasn't going to sink. To which the engineer emphatically replied, "Yes sirs! The ship will sink!" :unsure:
Now most likely they, like that ship's captain, will "go to the bridge, stand behind the wheel, and go down with the ship", even as the water pours into the bridge room.
:o Amazing! Abso-freekin-mazing!
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LornaDoone
My God, I just finished Elizabeth's letter and boy John should have kissed the ground she walked on for her loving insight. To think he sided against his wife with two a$$ holes who think they are God on a stick.
Karen Ann you should commit yourself, you and your husband are as bad as LCM & TWI.
Next to TWI, this is the most devilish organizaion if they continue to allow these two to function in any capacity. JAL, I spoke to you years ago about your time in TWI and your EGO and you told me you learned a few things since leaving. I think not.
Lording over people and legalism is bull ..... Perhaps you all should take a hiatis like LCM did and go work for UPS.
This makes me ill.................to even think about doing this to any believer. Shame on you all. Having seen these damnable spirits operate in TWI, I believe Elizabeth. Way to go Elizabeth, I hope you are lying in the sun enjoying life to the fullest.
As to CES, your fruit & teaching are being tried in a fire & will burn up if you don't get your act together and get your lives simple. Your egos are so overinflated I don't know if God could ever reach you again.
Shame, shame, shame.
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doojable
There is a lot more going on than meets the eye.
Personally, I'm in the mode of watching, praying and waiting.
Remember how vulnerable you felt when you realized that TWi wasn't what you thought it was. For me there was a real mixture of pain, disbelief, denial, loss. I'm sure that there are folks that are reading here that are going through this again - some of them are maybe saying, "NOT this again!"
I'd say that in our quest to know what is happening we should temper our words with compassion and wisdom. Remember that in some ways we really normally wouldn't know any of this at all - it's kinda like peeking in on someone through a keyhole just because we can.
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cman
Thanks modcat,
no problem at all
should of thought better and considered the names thing
heck i edited it myself 5 times i think...lol
mostly spelling though and phrasing
:)
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Mark Sanguinetti
On page 10 I posted a 5 page letter that I sent to the 3 CES leaders in November, 2000. If you have not yet read this letter and you want to have some background on how CES picked up their bad habit go to page 10 and then scroll down the page a bit until you find my post. I was looking on the Internet via a Google search for Christian International Bill Hamon. Yes, this is where CES picked up their personal prophecy error. I found one article so far with link below mixed in with a bunch of other links of religious propaganda. I have not had time to read it. Maybe it is good so check it out. Later on, if I can find it, I have a 40 page paper exposing a great deal of Christian International's folly which I have read in its entirety. I got it from a former poster here, Mark Coomer. He might have even written it. Maybe I will have more time for this later.
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/hamon.html
Yep, that is a good read above. Written in 2000, the same year I wrote my letter to the 3 CES leaders. Here is another link to check out also.
http://www.cephasministry.com/evangelists_bill_hamon.html
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therebutforgrace
Matthew, how differently we’ve read this thread. I see almost no bitterness and much grace among these believers so I doubt you’ll get flamed.. Perhaps it’s because I’m old enough to be your grandparent. Anyway, let’s chat.
You wrote...”I resigned from the office in early November for one very simple reason. I no longer trust Mark and Karen Anne Graeser. Mark is a very different man these days, many will attest to that.“
Others will attest that your boss has not changed much at all. Staff members resigned as many as 15 years ago because they could no longer trust him. When Staff members resigned (or were fired and lied about) after his move to Indpls, still the rest of the Board refused to hear the former Staff member’s grievances and not only continued with business as usual, but allowed your boss to promote himself to BE the boss.
You wrote...“As more facts have come to light, I have seen that there are a handful of others who are not to be trusted with leadership positions.”
Our definitions of who should be trusted with leadership should be similar, since God wrote it clearly. As I said in an earlier post, I personally can not call anyone on the CES Board my leader...because they do not measure up to God’s list. Why not start with a blank page and re-read Timothy and make that list. Check it twice since it’s almost Christmas, and see if you come to a different conclusion than you now hold about who should be trusted with leadership.
For instance....
1. Would you say that a person could be trusted with a leadership position if he tells a believer that anything admitted to him in his ‘deliverance session’ will be confidential, but then tells the Board what he learned? Oh, but what if his reason was that “the Ministry needed to know these things.”?
2. How many believers would need to come to you saying that a leader badgered, threatened, browbeat, intimidated, frightened, accused, belittled, dismissed, made inappropriate comments to or verbally attacked them...(generally ‘sliced them up one side and down the other’) for you to say that he could not be trusted with a leadership position?
You wrote...“I only see now a few people who have found that they can no longer run from their sins and they are being held to account for them.”
Should CES leaders only be held accountable for the sins which CES leaders bring up? If not, then here are some more questions for you and for every CESer reading this post and anyone else considering supporting any church. Please talk these over with non-CES believers with whom you fellowship and whom you trust.
REMEMBER: I was a CESer! I love these people! Listen up, CESers! NOW can be the time to redeem our brothers and sisters from destruction! If you were going over a cliff wouldn’t you want us to try to stop you even if you kicked and bit and called us names?
3. How many believers would you say a church leader could refuse to hear grievances from before you’d call it sin? Meaning, if I could show you that XYZ leader has refused to hear from ___ believers through __ years who have lovingly spoken up, written up, called up or emailed up, would you call that arrogance sin for which he, too, should be remorseful and repent?
4. Would you think now might be the time for other CES leaders to learn a lesson here and openly ask for believers to give them feedback? “Please try again, this time I’ll hear you.”? This would need to be done with some amount of mutually-agreed upon semi-public or at least 3rd party involvement so it couldn’t just be swept right back under the rug, of course.
Now, I don't know a CES leader who values the opinions of anyone outside CES and since every leader inside CES will be needing to do this it might pose a bit of a logistical problem, but do you think the idea has merit? If you were in leadership would you be willing to hear from your sheep?
You wrote....“....you don't run off members you disagree with....”
Agreed...and that brings us back to those members who have been run off through the years....will they be welcome back to speak up now?
You wrote....“....none of you has the right to make blanket statements and far-fetched assumptions about how the ministry was run by this so-called prophetic guidance. It never has been, and because of the men and women who are taking a stand against Mark, I believe it never will be.”
Tomorrow I can give you examples of KA’s word/prophecies/dreams running the ministry. Then again, the Board of Directors could write a list longer than mine. Why not ask them? Why don’t all of you CESers ask all of these questions? Maybe ask.....Which ministry decisions have been according to KA’s ‘word from the Lord’? Which personal decisions have each of you made based on KA’s ‘words from the Lord’? How many believers routinely come to KA asking for a “word from the Lord’? How many have been cornered in order for KA to give them a ‘word from the Lord’? And, to a lesser degree, you could now ask the same of Tom and Susan’s ‘words’. If you get "none', let me know, I'l give you some, and you can ask again.
You wrote....“....to the partners and contributors of CES who are already coming here trying to find answers.”
PRAISE GOD if this is happening! Welcome, CESers...read on and ASK your LORD what is true here. Then re-read the cover letter of Elizabeth’s letter and follow your own JAL’s example when he heard of evil in TWI. Go to your Lord, go to the Word, then GO TO YOUR LEADERS AND ASK about these things. (Don’t go by yourself, and take a tape recorder with you. If they don’t agree, shake the dust off your feet as you walk away.)
You see, folks, as GSCers who are not involved with CES have so biblically stated....this is not only about the Gs.
It’s not only about how the Board/Staff treated JAL and Elizabeth. Every Board/Staff member watched and/or participated in that treatment and so did many CESers reading this post.
Ouch? OK think about it.....when the entire Board sent out the 7-7-04 M&A letter (..."we suggest that those who consider themselves to be friends of STFI or CES deal with E. in accordance with Rom 16:17,18.....") or when you were told in person or in writing that she was crazy or that she would 'take you out,' did you stay away from her? Did you ever call her? Did you ever write/email her? Did you treat her as Jesus told you to treat her (as you would want to be treated) or as CES told you to treat her.....and with how many other people have you done the same thing?!
This is not even only about whether KA ran the ministry with ‘prophecies’. Every Board/Staff member heard her ‘prophecies’ and dreams and visions for years and here we are today with a trail of evil.
And that is what this is about.
Evil, done in the Name of our Lord.
No, this is not a witch hunt, over with when the Gs are fired (pun intended).
Well, yes it is too a witch-hunt.....but it will be over with when the leaders HUMBLE THEMSELVES BEFORE THEIR LORD and their victims and allow the HOLY SPIRIT'S fire to cleanse their hearts!
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cman
I don't think some of these ces people understand-
FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Nor is it being abused here.
Thought I'd throw that in in case someone thought that.
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cman
And the right to assemble peacably too...ha
Can't sit around and talk over there in ces or what?
All your leaders have avoided talking right here where it's being discussed.
You know why-Because this Scares the crap out of THEM.
They have to be overlords over whoever they talk to.
Jesus specifically warned against being like this.
Still they spit in His Face.
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cman
The Spirit of the Lord is working in these people here.
Twi and the rest of it's offshoots don't have anything to say.
Just wrap yourselves around and in books.
Hide in them and don't come out to really hear and see.
But rather they hide behind the dead letter.
While the living epistles soar the heights.
How long will you remain under a schoolmaster?
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